Plan9

Haha! I think that's the funniest thing you've ever said on here. Well done.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

Did a socialist just say it's about going after the money and getting paid for providing a service...?

Someone suspend his account, it's clearly been hacked!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Baraka_Guru

I think that's what it all comes down to.

The more you stick your dick in there the greater the chance a baby will come out.

That's life.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------

We're socialists, not communists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SecretMethod70

Well I wasn't going to mention it, but others have, including soma, so it does seem suspect to me that you've been going through relationship troubles and that you're so much more stable than she is and now *oops!* she's pregnant. I wouldn't accuse her of it directly - there's no good way to do that - but it's something to consider when you're deciding whether to keep trying for a relationship with her or simply fulfill your duty as a father. What were you two doing for birth control? Condoms? The pill? Both? Something else?

As for this mentality that it's your own damn fault for having sex in the first place, I'm not one to blame people for following biological imperatives. Blaming someone for having sex is like blaming someone for eating. That said, just like one can eat irresponsibly (overeating, eating more than they can afford), one can also have sex irresponsibly (without adequate birth control, etc). Assuming you were using birth control, I think your biggest mistake was having sex with someone who you weren't positive was sane enough to recognize when a pregnancy should not be continued. Anyway, that's all in the past. My point is simply to say that it's unreasonable to expect people to forgo sex entirely. That urge - and these sorts of mistakes - are kind of the entire basis of our advancement as a species.

I think genuinegirly gives some very good advice, but I disagree with the idea that your parents might magically be OK with an interracial relationship just because there's a grandkid on the way. I don't know why, but people have this tendency to think children fix everything. Your girlfriend seems to think it will fix your relationship (it won't, and it will screw all three of you over in the long run), others here seem to think that the wonder of creating a life will make up for the fact your financial life is going to suck for the next 10-20 years (it won't, regardless of what approach you take to the situation), and still others seem to think that a cute little interracial baby just washes away any inherent racism grandparents might have (it won't, in fact it might just make it worse, especially considering the child is out of wedlock).

None of this is to say that these are good excuses to be a deadbeat dad or anything like that. I don't get the impression that you're considering skipping out on your responsibilities, and I don't know why some others seem to default to that assumption just because you're not happy with the situation. Rather, I acknowledge the negative to sympathize with you: telling you what you feel is wrong and that you should be happy about all this isn't going to do anything to help. It's important to know, first and foremost, that what you're feeling is OK. It's OK that you're not happy. Don't ignore what you're feeling because other people tell you it's not right; embrace your feelings so that you can see them, accept them, and move on from them.

Once you've accepted that what you're feeling is OK, it's easier to move past those feelings and determine the best course of action. Your relationship to the child - should it be born and kept by the mother - only has a few options, ranging from full on dad to absent source of money. Seeing as how any hint of you doing anything less than that is only in the imagination of other posters here, I'm not going to dwell on that.

Your first step is to have many long, hard discussions with the mother about why it's not a good idea to keep the child. I don't know what her reasons are for not having an abortion, so let's assume that's non-negotiable. If that's the case, I'd focus on the fact the child will have a much better life with a different family than with the two of you barely able to support it. It doesn't sound like she's one to respond to reason, but it's worth a shot. Focus on how the child's life will be better, not how your lives will be better. She's clearly not capable of thinking rationally about your own lives. I'd mention the prospect of having grandparents who resent it as well, because that is an important issue if you're talking about providing the best life for the child.

During these discussions, observe her reactions, because your next step after finalizing what is going to happen with this pregnancy is figuring out what is going to happen to your relationship with the mother. Even if you convince her to go through with adoption, she could change her mind, so you need to assume that you'll be responsible for the baby until it is officially, legally not your responsibility. Working with that assumption, you need to know if there's good reason to suspect that it is not truly yours or that she got pregnant intentionally. Observe how she talks about the pregnancy, how she reactions to the idea of adoption, why she is against putting the baby up for adoption, and decide how likely you think it is that the baby is not yours or was intentional.

Asking for a DNA test is likely to severely damage your relationship with the mother. If she has cheated in the past then you have good reason to want one, but she's going to be insulted by the request either way. Be prepared for that consequence before you decide to ask. Not because your relationship with the mother particularly matters here, but because if she keeps the baby then your relationship with her will affect your relationship with the child. Asking for a DNA test will be a very sensitive discussion. That's not to say you shouldn't do it: if you do suspect that the child may not be yours, then going through that difficult discussion is better than going through a lifetime of caring for a child that is not your responsibility.

The even bigger issue is the question of whether or not this pregnancy was intentional. There's no point in ever making this accusation directly, because nothing can be done with it. Intentional or not, if the child is yours then it is your responsibility. (Side note: Men seriously get screwed by the law in this regard, but I have yet to think of a satisfactory way to give men the same power to denounce a pregnancy that a woman has.) Could she have intentionally skipped birth control? Could she have sabotaged your condoms? If you come to believe that she planned this, then that does two things for you: 1) It will tell you that this is not a woman you want to remain in a relationship with. This will help you determine what role you are going to play in the child's life, and it will also help determine whether or not you think the issue of a DNA test is worth bringing up. 2) It may help you convince her to give the child up for adoption. If she intentionally got pregnant thinking that it would tie you to her and you make it clear that you have no intention of letting this pregnancy tie you to her as well as the child, then she may realize it's best to give the child up for adoption than to raise it as a single mother. You'll never know if she did this intentionally, so the best you can go on here is intuition.

----

I just thought to add: a very good friend of mine found out he was the father of an unwanted pregnancy back in February. Both he and the mother have law degrees, and they had already been living together for over a year at that point. They decided to keep the baby and got married right away, but they were not exactly enthused by the development. They weren't calling their friends spreading the good news, and when they finally got around to telling me that they got married and will be having a baby, there was a mixture of happiness and disappointment. I share this story to stress, again, that you should not feel guilty for being unhappy about all this. If two relatively stable young lawyers who are already in a committed relationship aren't happy about their unwanted pregnancy, then you definitely have a right to be unhappy about yours.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

katyg

I must interject, I rarely post on here but some of these posts trouble me.

I few years ago,when I was 25 and my partner 23, even though I was taking the pill we got pregnant. We were not in a financial position to support a child, and he was using cannabis heavily and it was making our relationship rocky.

When I got the test and took it, I immediately told him, his first words were 'I'm too young to be a dad', being naive and totally in love, I felt I did the right thing by him, and went to have a termination. I didn't want to be a single mum.

It has haunted me ever since. I'm sorry to get graphic, but because I wanted not to risk my future fertility I had to have an abortion wherby you essentially give birth to the dead foetus (at 11 weeks), it was horrific and troubling, I am not against abortions nor pro people having kids against their will but if you understood the pressure, guilt, worry and feelings of disgust that went through me shortly after - then you might think twice about being so much more worried about yourself.

I did not choose to get pregnant,
I would never manipulate a man into staying with me by getting pregnant.
Nor would any sane woman.

And it is I that has to live with the choice we made - have a long hard think about what it is she is probably feeling at the moment and be a little less panicked about yourself, and a bit more sympathetic to her, please.

Just a thought from my own experience.

__________________
"We make a living by what we get but we make a life by what we give"
Winston Churchill

ironman

I say you have it easy man!
Nobody will notice you're going to be a dad, everybody will notice she is going to be a mother; if you decide to abort, is she, not you, who must likely will get scarred for life by the experience; if she decides to keep the baby, is she who will have to put her academic, social and work life on a hiatus, not you (assuming you won't go and live with her, assumption more than reasonable taken into account everything you have said in this and other threads), you won't have to spend night after night feeding and taking care of the baby, you won't get all preoccupied and stressed because the baby is sick, won't eat or is crying for no reason, no man, you won't experience any of those shortcomings, all you'll have to do is pay a monthly sum to support the baby and that's it, I say you have it easy taking everything into account, so, my advice to you: MAN UP and thank God you are the man and not the girl in the situation, then go and buy a shitload of condoms, this time with Nonoxynol-9 for your future sexcapades, or better yet, refrain to engage in activities which consequences you are more than clear unable and unwilling to accept.

__________________
If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

SecretMethod70

katyg: I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I don't think anyone here would support the idea of someone getting an abortion when that person doesn't truly want one; we are suggesting that the mother is likely not thinking clearly about the issue and perhaps through discussion soma can make her realize that there are better options. Going through life avoiding expressing your own wants and desires out of fear that someone else will not like their consequences is no way to live. If the mother decides to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption after talking things over with soma, then that's her own responsibility. Just like the fact she is pregnant is soma's responsibility. He shouldn't be required to keep his own desires locked away just because someone else might not like them.

ironman: The fact he's less screwed than her doesn't take away from the fact that he is still screwed. Furthermore, I get the impression that she's perfectly fine with "[putting] her academic, social and work life on a hiatus," which only contributes to making soma even more screwed. Lastly, if she doesn't feel screwed by this - and it seems she doesn't - then it hardly makes sense to say she has it worse off than soma. Neither are in a good position, but soma seems to be the only one with the good sense to realize it. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

As for Nonoxynol-9, it actually increases the risk of HPV and HIV infection because it is a skin irritant. Most safer sex educators I know of specifically recommend against its use.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ironman

Even more reason then to keep it in his pants if his not willing to accept the responsibility of his actions. If you fuck, eventually you will get yourself/other pregnant, that's as simple as 1+1.

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If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

Idyllic

What is with the "go me!" if this is such a displeasure for you why congratulate yourself for the fact that a woman whom you don't really seem to care for beyond a nut dump is pregnant by you.... what does it prove, that you can make a baby. The real question is can you be a man about it and accept the responsibility of your actions. Life is not always the ride we dream it will be but if you look around and try to enjoy the ride your on you may find it is even better than you thought it could be. Man up to your parents, apparently you have some feelings for this girl and whether your parents accept her or not is truly the least of your problems, they will die one day and if you are living for them, then they really didn't do the job they should have. If you wait until you are financially capable to conceive you may end up fatherless, for now you must face this unplanned surprise, if she aborts or not will only alleviate the momentary issue, whether you will take the reigns on this horse of your life is the real question, twenty years from now you will still be a father, of either a dead conglomeration of cells that amounted to nothing or a 20 year old human who will bear some resemblance of you and hopefully respect you more than you respect yourself right now and who if in the same situation as you are right now recognizes the choices they have, just the fact that she is in college says something.

If she decides to keep it and you do decide to participate in a life together (why not, if the baby is yours, why the hell not try, you don’t have to get married, you don’t have to sign your name to the papers yet, on the contrary if no funds are available, you two need to allow her to take the responsibility of the financial burden (depending on where you live, unmarried mothers, especially students, receive reduced to free care for childbirth and early child development) and the ability to receive food stamps, WIC, etc… this is the price she pays for not protecting herself, that and the whole Mother thing, secondary you will need to support the child, period, unless it is not yours but you have already stated that you believe it is. Still she will get more help as a single mother right now and I think this should be part of her commitment to the baby and in a sense her willingness to support you finishing college and getting the job, then when the baby is a bit older she can finish her education, she will need to quit school and get a job, you will need to finish school and hold down a job -always- It is nice to be young with your children, struggle builds character and if you allow it, closeness of family and value of more than that which is monetary. It is true, if she desires to keep this baby it is she who will do the lions' share of the child rearing, and you will only foot half the bill, it's not like mom's and their jobs, or our taxes don't pay for at least half. (go you!) well you did Soma, the question now is can you go the distant and when or if you do then you can truly say, GO ME! until then, just because you can father a child, damn sure doesn't make you a dad.

p.s. katyg, it still amazes me how fast the word abortion gets thrown into the mix of responsibility as though aborting the conglomeration of cells is just as simple as throwing away a piece of paper, but the reality is that piece of paper was a story in the making and we ended the book before it began but the chapter remains within “our” book and always feels empty, pages of emptiness that never seem to be filled with anything except regret. Even though we convince ourselves we did the right thing and that at the time we did exactly what we knew was the best for all involved, it doesn’t change the fact that those pages will always be empty in the book of “our” lives, for men it seems however, they don’t carry the same emptiness we do, they don’t understand the unwritten words that are written in our minds over and over again, the what ifs, the could have beens, the did I do the right thing, the justifications, the reality of the experience is ours to bear, the burden of birth or lack thereof still seems to linger in our minds, and the biggest worry on this thread seems to be “what will my parents think” and “how can I afford this” not the reality of lives changed simply in the effort of living. I am amazed at the moments of reality that seem to pass people by with little more meaning than what it will cost my wallet or my appearance as opposed to how it will alter my reality of LIFE, if I had had the baby it would be 21 this winter, IF, If, if. I wonder if he even remembers my name. I sure as hell remember his, I remember every single moment of every single moment, it costs me a lot more than a college education to remember, a lot more than the respect of my mother (who was disgusted for years at me for my decision), but he’s not paying for anything, I am and it still costs me today just currency of heart and mind, and a good therapist and learning to just go with the flow “chart” of life that doesn’t always end in definitives that are all squared away and neat or easy to follow but lead me to happiness none the less.

Man up Soma, either way, don’t let her go through this alone, she sure as hell didn’t get there that way. Peace be with you and her. Good luck and God Bless.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Plan9

What is manly about putting up with a stranger growing a 50/50 tumor?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

SecretMethod70

Pretty sure it's called sarcasm

I find it interesting that people are so willing to talk about "manning up" and accepting the responsibility of actions, yet no one apparently expects the mother to do the same thing. The responsible thing for the mother to do in this situation would be to either abort or put the child up for adoption. It is irresponsible for the mother to carry this child to term with the intention of keeping it, yet no one wants to talk about how she isn't being responsible here. Soma's not asking how to get away with being a deadbeat dad, and no one here is advising him to be one. Rather, the discussion has been centered on how to help the mother to see what the more responsible options are, how to make sure he's not stuck caring for someone else's kid, and, finally, how to minimize the negative impact this unplanned pregnancy will have on the rest of his life.

As for the specific topic of abortion - and this is really approaching deserving a different thread - while there is no doubt that some mothers do suffer regret after abortion, the evidence points to this emotional impact being seriously overstated by those who are opposed to abortion. This is not to discount the experience of someone like katyg or yourself. Some women most certainly regret the decision. It is simply a mistake to assume that the difficult decision to abort will also lead to years of regret and anguish afterward. But again, no one is saying soma should bully her into getting an abortion, some people (including me) are simply saying that it is an option that should be seriously discussed. The fact that you regret your own has no bearing on what decision is right for soma and his girlfriend.

Awhile back, a certain TFP user wrote about her experience having had an abortion as a teenager, and you know what? She did not talk about regret. She did not talk about how that "chapter remains within [her] book and always feels empty." She was perfectly fine with the decision and recognizes it was the best choice to make. So please don't promote the sexist idea that men just don't understand and woe is woman who will always and forever regret having not given a chance to the clump of cells growing in their womb. The "what if" argument is tired and faulty, as powerclown demonstrates (perhaps unintentionally) in post #6. Women are just as capable as men to find peace with the decision to abort, and men are just as capable as women to regret that decision. In my own relationship, we've done everything necessary to avoid pregnancy over the past 10 years, but if we were to find out tomorrow that she's pregnant we would be making a trip to Planned Parenthood the next day. That's the real mistake here with soma's situation, because both my girlfriend and I have discussed this and there has never been any question that we would both choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Soma didn't establish that understanding, and so he's paying the consequence. But again, that's in the past. It doesn't do him one bit of help to tell him how he should have done this or shouldn't have done that. It's kind of hard not to realize these things when you're faced with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.

Don't go moralizing and generalizing about your own decisions as if they apply equally to others. Especially don't go telling someone that their feelings aren't valid or that they shouldn't express their own needs and desires because they might cause someone else to be unhappy. Why is it OK for the mother to express the desire to keep the child with no regard for soma's happiness, but not OK for soma to express his desire to abort the child or put it up for adoption simply because the mother might be unhappy with those choices? It's not. He can't force the mother to abort or put the child up for adoption, so if she does do one of those things after discussing it with soma, it is her own responsibility to own those decisions. Don't go saddling soma with guilt for future possibilities that don't yet exist. He is responsible for his own choices, not hers, and if his choice would be to get rid of the baby in some way then he should not be forced to keep silent about what he wants for fear that she may not be happy with her own decision down the road.

(Sorry, soma, for talking about you as if you're not here.)

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Plan9

Nice, Smeth. And God can stay outta this thread. He's a lousy sibling to Our Lord and Savior: Brother Reason.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ironman

Didn't know she had a tumor, I thought she was expecting a baby.
She is no stranger, it is right there on the OP's title, GIRL FRIEND, hell!,you were offering him relationship advice twenty-something days ago.
A true man takes responsibility for his actions and does not fears his parents, instead he fights for what/who he wants/love.

Life sucks, but it also swallows!!
MAN UP!!

__________________
If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

Xerxys

Geez, the high horses in here ...

People freak out. Freak out is normal. It is far more likely the girl didn't do this on purpose and even FAR more likely soma will be a dead beat more than the mom. Being a bread winner is difficult and soma just realized what he is up against. I have faith in him being a good father ... cause it's the only thing I can do.

but you guys ... wow!

Baraka_Guru

It seems to me that "manliness" is a concept used mainly to either castigate or manipulate male behaviour.

I'm thinking about adding the phrase "man up" to fugly's thread. Does anyone second this motion?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Aye. All this "man up" shit makes me wanna punt someone in the crotch.

How about she "woman up" and get an abortion because she doesn't have the $$$?

OOH NAW, DAT WOULDN'T BE FAYR 'CUZ SHE A GIRL AND HAVIN' DUH BAYBEE.

Uh-huh.

Enough.

...

New from the makers of Chivalry's Dead and brought to you by Equal Rights (Sure, Uh-Huh) comes:

Man Up. (TM)

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

snowy

Just wanted to pop in and say great post, smeth.

I bolded the part that I thought was most important. This is probably the most crucial conversation to have in a relationship--or even not in a relationship, if you're not willing to wrap it before you tap it.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

The_Jazz

For those of you who haven't done it -and it's glaringly obvious that about 90% of the posters in this thread haven't - go back and read some of soma's earlier threads and posts. Because most of you clearly don't know much. So, dumbasses, before you get on your high horse for or against abortion, I humbly suggest that you know who the fuck you're talking about. Because, again, most of you don't. Which makes you suck, regardless or whatever opinion you have or don't have.

Those of you who've already done that know who you are - as do I and anyone else who've bothered to invest 5-10 minutes of their time. Thanks for that.

Soma - a few questions that are tough but need to be asked. Since I'm already the dickhead in this thread, I'll be the one to ask.

1) Are you sure she's pregnant or do you just have her word? Doctor confirmed?
2) Are you sure it's yours? I know you think its unlikely, but that didn't seem to be the case not that long ago.
3) What is she trying to get you to do? If it's anything beyond financial support at this stage, be suspicious.
4) Has she told anyone else she's pregnant? How is the announcement being made?
5) Are you trolling us?

Like I said, uncomfortable questions all around, but ones that need to be asked.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

LordEden

Yeah, "staying together for the kids" is a bullshit and epic fail move. The "kids" will know it and it never ends pretty. No one said "be a deadbeat dad", just don't stay dating this girl you are having problems with just for some accidental joining together of microscopic cells.

The_Jazz is right, these 5 questions *NEED* to be asked. Mainly 1 and 2. Coming from someone that has a woman cheat on him in every single relationship he has been in, find out if it's yours before signing anything. Hell, they sell DNA tests at CVS and walmart now. You will have to wait till the podling is out of the holding chamber before you can test it, but it needs to be done.

Also, women get pregnant to keep a relationship alive, I *know* this and it's a FUCKED UP situation to be in. Not all women (or men) are sane (as one poster commented) and that shit happens.

Personally, I say take her on a romantic day long horseback ride and hope for the best.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Jetée

Any updates on your mind status, soma?

One thing I may advise you to do is to seek some legal counsel on this, as I'm not an expert on custodial and parental obligations.

You aren't married to the girl, I'm unsure about the status of your relationship with her, though I do feel as though you might just be with her because she's there for you, and taking on more responsiblity than you are currently prepared for may drive you to some metaphorical edge of sane rationing and who knows what you'll do then.

Just take some time to examine both you and your girl's mindset about the idea of a consolidated soma x soma's current GF mini-human, what it bears towards future returns, and if either of you can be commited to each other in the long-term. Perhaps love can later, if not's already prsent in your relationship (though this may be the case for only one of you).

Last remark: I'm thinking your signature's link may need some updating (with this thread instead).
It is really hard to think about how unbelievable this is for you ; it's just... you have every right to be whacked out of your mind about now.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

katyg

I'm losing faith in humanity reading this thread.

All I am pointing out is:

1) If you have sex, there's a chance you might have a baby
2) Abortion can be an option but it's not always an easy one - it wasn't in my case
3) If she has decided to go to term you have to respect that - don't try and persuade her into anything
4) Support her as best you can but if you don't want to be with her, be there for the child but end the relationship

What often troubles me is the sheer amount of boys that simply seem to think that you can go through life and this is never a possibility - it's not all fun, games and fucking - there are consequences that neither person can foresee. I feel some very latent misogyny around here in ,some of the replies but perhaps I am just not in a funny mood.

It's not about 'manning up' that's equally sexist rubbish, it's about being a decent human being, supporting the girl you chose to be with, and helping her through this either as a friend or partner.

You're not the first, you won't be the last- it's not the end of your life so calm down.
All I was saying in my earlier post was that for me, and many of my friends - it wasn't easy to abort so get that right out of your head and deal with the person in front of you and help them.

__________________
"We make a living by what we get but we make a life by what we give"
Winston Churchill

Idyllic

To "woman up" would mean to accept the responsibility of her actions and follow through with them regardless of the choice, abort, adopt out, or rear and mother.... that would be to "woman up". And within that "womaning up" the recognizing that it seems, to many men, that abortion is just the end of a problem whereas the process of abortion alone has its own issues for not only a mental adjustment of reality but a physical one. Abortion is like having a root canal between your legs with more stigma than lack of good dental hygiene, grow up fellas, the abortion of a fetus is more than just taking a day after pill at this point. I could care less about the moral side of this issue; God has nothing to do with choice, imo, so my bringing in of God was just a simple well wishing to soma, et al.

It’s a real shame when someone takes what one says and wraps it with a religious connotation just because I believe in a God (just because I believe in God does not make me anti-abortion nor does it make me judgmental, nor am I pressuring to not have an abortion, gggeeessshhh people), and most of what I was saying about abortion to begin with was to katyg and understanding how abortion can effect somebody, funny, it didn't bother me that much until about 10 years later, when I grew up and realized the haste of my decision (and the pressure put upon me to have it). Still doesn't change that I did what I thought was the best at the time I did it, it just seems to me as a more mature woman now, I realize that most people raise to the challenges they are presented, it would have just been another challenge I would have risen to. And if she keeps it, so will they, they will rise to the challenges presented by their decisions. Soma seems to be a very intelligent person, I have a feeling he will make the right choice and support this girl regardless of her choice, one that I do not pressure or have a vested opinion in either direction, I was simply tired of hearing the abort, abort, abort, wash your hands of it and np shit being throw out there.......

I am floored at how many of you jump on to that abort wagon and seem to blame the girl for entrapment of some sort if she doesn't do what some of you fellas view as the easy way out, but it is really only easy for you boys, interesting. Man Up means be an adult about it, grow up and accept the reality of your situation as more than just her problem to fix and deal with it, accept your part in the participation of the results of your actions.

God has nothing to do with my perspectives of the actions of morality, human actions are simply what they are, responses to stimulus, how one responds to stimulus defines ones character, not ones religions beliefs. I do not believe it is morally wrong to have an abortion, I do not think it reduces ones character, I do not believe abortion is bad, what I believe it that the reality of abortion is more that just a trip to the doctor to remove a 50/50 tumor because a tumor has no potential for anything other than being parasitic whereas a fetus has potential. I am not selling life, it is what it is. Manning Up is simply growing up just as Womaning Up is growing up too; it’s facing your responsibilities head on and accepting the repercussions of their outcomes. Get over the God shit, when I say God bless you I mean, may your life find meaning and fulfillment in whatever endeavors you seek and may you find peace in your decisions that they may bring you joy in life and a sense of completion in your living however the fuck you find it, in that fucking sentiment, God Bless you all.

For starters what part of this is a lack of her accepting responsibility, yeah, she got knocked up so now she will need to take the responsibility of motherhood, find a job, ask for assistance to admit she fucked up in her ability to prepare for motherhood before she allowed it to happen, put off her education and in a sense her ability to provide for herself without depending on someone else, wherein she will be beholden to handouts for her security, accept that society will look at her as a burden, an unwed mother, she will own them alright, and where will he be in all this, her accepting her responsibility? Well if she had aborted like he wanted or put the baby up for adoption, would she be where he is? (As a side, when a woman goes to a doctor she is asked if she has had any abortions, pregnancies that ended early, etc, as the effects of pregnancies do weight on the female body, regardless of fruition {scar tissue, etc}…. do they ask the same of men? like, how many women have you impregnated who aborted or who carried to term? It makes a difference to a woman’s body, it makes a difference to a woman’s mind, it just does! We are asked these questions, it matters to us, it matters to our physical definitions of our bodies’ evolution, it matters.)

So, because HE does not want the responsibility of his intercourse SHE should either, abort, give it up, or take full responsibility for the decision to keep their offspring and he should have no responsibility because he doesn’t WANT to deal with the repercussions of his actions to begin with…..What? How is it irresponsible for her to want to keep her child just because HE does not want the responsibility of it…. WTF? She must abort or adopt out because HE does not want the responsibility, do you hear what you are saying? It’s all her fault he will be a father and it is up to her to fix this for HIM, at her expense of everything, you know, had she been wearing a burka maybe she would not have tempted him to fuck her to begin with and he would not have to worry about the consequences of HIS actions, all her fault, all her decisions, all her repercussions to protect his way of life…. are you getting this? She should just abort or give it away so he does not need to suffer the injustice of unprepared for fatherhood as he really didn’t mean to become one right now and not with her, she was just for fucks sake, even his parents would have disapproved, he was never really serious, but was she? Not that that mattered, did it?

I really wish men could be impregnated and understand what it means not only to themselves (as the conceiver) but to society as being the incubator of life, and to themselves later as the ender of life, because it just didn’t seem like the right time to let this conglomeration of cells to grow. You abort a mission before it comes to fruition, once these cells develop you destroy a fetus, abortion is what you do before you bust the nut. Interesting site you linked to, I have never seen it before nor does the putting a God perspective to abortion mean squat to me, God has nothing to do with the abortion of a fetus or life, the perspectives of life (the already living body) is what makes the difference, if abortion to you is a form of birth control, well then, their you go, what is the difference between life and death to begin with…. I would hate for humanity to get to the point where we view abortion as just an extension of bc, shame, get over the whole God stuff, this isn’t about God, this is about the reality of human experience and human existence, the biology of man and the minds ability to link life to experiences therewith, you cannot remove life from pregnancy in that you decide that if it is not the appropriate time then it was never really viable anyways, lets not confuse choice with convenience.

What part of this does not imply that she should take responsibility for the decision to keep the baby, if that is the decision? In the end, he can simply walk away and throw her a couple of bucks to cover the costs of the LIFE HE CREATED TOO (in reality he can just walk away and deny, move to another state, ignore, move to another country, nothing outside of a court ordered blood test can prove his paternity and then if he really does not want to support his child he can just not work and eventually be sent to jail, on the other hand, she will always be the responsible party of this life, regardless of whether she allows it to come to fruition or not and most of the time in situation where the male just does not want to provide, the female makes due anyway). You know what SecretMethod70 I did not talk about regret for many, many years after either, it wasn’t until I got much older and realized that life may not have been as easy but it still would have been an experience to have known, I do not regret having an abortion, what I regret is not experiencing that life when I was younger, this is not about morals, this is about the reality of what an abortion places on a woman, research what happens to a woman during an abortion, better yet, go to a clinic and watch the women who have to cross a protest line with women chanting “please don’t kill your baby, please, give me your baby”….. this isn’t about morality, this IS the reality of living, and she should not have to live this reality alone as he is just as much a party to this as she is, but she will suffer the responsibility of it far more than he ever will, unless of course she dies during any procedures and all is lost or HE rears the child by himself, then he can accept full responsibility for his actions and man up to life as an adult male, or a man.

Pardon my rant......., and the five questions posted by The_Jazz seem like the five pillars to reality to me for Soma right now..... Good luck Soma, my thoughts are with you, be patient.

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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Plan9

It sucks having to play Captain Obvious for these type of threads, huh? Glad you posted your Five Pillars, though.

...

I just assume people post shit that's real. Otherwise I'd get tired emulating you with the constant "you're an idiot, it's crap."

How are we supposed to confirm any of this shit anyway? For all we know, he's a just another Sudanese banker with a great offer.

Just pretend it's real. We can berate Soma and each other once his lady friend lets out an epic fart that was nothing but a food baby.

...

Sorry.

I get all cranky when somebody upsets my flow of "Well, I'd spike a fetus in a trash can!" during the course of a I-Accidentally-The-Whole-Thing thread.

Topics like this inevitably lead to the same circle jerk. I should have just linked the old bean directly to the last thread where I shunned god and a fetus.

...

That reminds me... whatever happened to that InfiniteLoser guy?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Jetée

I actually tried to ignore the fact the OP has only posted twice in here for the fact that he may be going through something quite demanding at this point in his life, so I left a little reminder note to ease him back into this (now tug-of-war-like) discussion.

Also, I think it may be be as simple as The_Jazz put it, trying to re-address soma and give him some basic guidelines in order to not freak out.

I'm not really interested into getting into the concerns of babies and their implications toward quality of life, and what constitutes the best decision according to *expert's hand raised here, because it isn't warranted. Of course this has morphed into a discussion piece because of differing and vocal viewpoints raised by others, and then contended by those subsequent, but I just leap-frogged you all, and tried to do what The_Jazz did, only just a tad bit late (I'm always late - why, oh, why, am I always so late?).

It'd be really funny if, in the end, your girlfriend ended up being "late" as well, soma (we laugh to keep us from crying, or so I hear).

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As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Baraka_Guru

Maybe his own pregnancy scare turned out to be real.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

soma

UPDATE
(Sorry for the all caps and red text)

1. The pregnancy is doctor confirmed
2. Not sure, but she will get a paternity test. When I brought it up, she seemed completely unfazed. I'm pretty sure it's mine (but there will still be a test).
3. We're thinking of moving in together, looked at a few apartments today (I still have serious doubts about this whole thing)
4. We've only told our close friends and parents, we're certainly not making is super public.
5. Negative.

-There is a .000001% she will get an abortion
-There is a 10% chance she will put the baby up for adoption. This is what I'm hoping for.

My Objective Going Forward:
I want to convince her that adoption is best for her, the baby, and me. Are there any statistics regarding unmarried couples and unexpected pregnancies? If there are hard facts I can show her, maybe I can convince her that this is going to be really messy.

We did some math last night, and we simply can't afford this (it was depressing). The problem is that we're both getting kicked out by our parents and we have to find a place together. I'm thinking that we will move in together, and during our time spent together I can convince her just how fucked we are and maybe she'll consider adoption.

There's more on my mind that I need to post, but I have to go. Thanks again for all of the posts and information everyone!

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Having Girl Problems?

Jetée

soma: There was a statistic I remember about how it costs, on average, $12,000 a year (US-specific) to raise a 1-3-year-old, then you add 25% compounded every 5 years, and I believe the cut-off for child rearing was 20 years in this.

It was very quick, televised, and I'm half-and-half sure I saw it in 1995, so adjust for inflation. I doubt the statistic applies for every family and cause and demographic, but for the most basic of child needs (food, clothing, shelter, education, medical services) this is what it touted: 12k a year for one kid. (though, I could just be misremembering / making this whole thing up unaware of the fact that such a statistic does not exist. sorry i can't forward you a link.)

Does your city or county have a planned parenthood center? That might be a place to start. (the local library would be the first venue to refer you; your GCP (doc) would be the second.)

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

glasscutter43

Go for custudy of your child and raise the little darling yourself. Hire a nice old nanny to help you. If you are in a more stable lifestyle and better off financially and have a female lawyer you may win this case. Let her pay you.
The best defense is a good offence.

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Book 'em Danno

raging moderate

yeah I was a Spanish Lit major (for whatever reason) and now I work in manufacturing. Go figure.

The kid thing - as a father-to-be myself in a somewhat different situation (committed relationship but still a Surprise (TM)) the emotions started in the same place you are at, but ended up with happiness and excitement.

HOWEVER we have had an abortion back in the day, and that was FUCKING GOD AWFUL I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Adoption isn't easy either, definitely harder than an abortion due to the whole 9-months thing. Plus she'd probably not be able to go through with it once the time came to pull the trigger. I'd love to say "go for the abortion" even though it is absolutely terrible but it ultimately comes down to whether or not she'll go through with it b/c it is her body. Kinda sucks b/c there should be a 50/50 say in the matter but you can't MAKE her get one. Also be careful about trying to force her into it b/c the harder you push for it the more she'll resist. Gotta be gentle with that one. And then be nice to her afterwords if she does go through with it, she'll be wreck.


edit: and don't worry about your parents, after the initial shock they'll come around. I would not, however, advise telling them about it at all if you do end up getting an abortion. that is NOT a pleasant conversation to have with your parents

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These are the good old days...



formerly Murp0434

soma

MISCARRIAGE! I win. (sorry, that was horribly insensitive, but really, that's how i feel)

It's all over now, and I'm damn pleased.
I have my life back and am never having sex again.

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Having Girl Problems?

snowy

Holy crap, you sure dodged a bullet.

You'll have sex again. Just don't forget your 1) rubber raincoat, and 2) have a serious conversation before bumpin' uglies about a) what birth control method she's on, and b) what happens should an accident occur.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Plan9

Miscarriage? Thanks a lot, Jazz.

Now skeptical TFP is skeptical.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

soma

I didn't dodge a bullet, I dodged a nuclear bomb!
But yea, that's a good check list. I'll keep that in mind if I do plan to bump uglies again...

Edit: if anyone thinks i'm making this all up and am trolling you guys, here's some more details that only someone who's going through this would know. Ok, so last week her progesterone levels were very low. if you have declining progesterone levels, that means a miscarriage is imminent.

So she had some bleeding, which prompted her to go to the doctor, where she found out she had low progetsterone levels. she then went to the doctor a few days later to see if the levels went down. we didn't get the results until this past monday, which was also the same day she got the miscarriage.

graphic: she woke up with heavy bleeding and when she was on the toilet, a bloody glob was expelled from her body.

So yea, trust me i'm not trollin'. I've been a tpf'er for many years.

__________________
Having Girl Problems?

Plan9

So are you kicking this girl to the curb or what? Let's do an after action review about how you're gonna wise up with women.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dlish

i agree with 9er. You need to have a real good think and assess whether you really want to be with this girl after this little episode and especially with the crap she just put you through.

i suggest you do this before any of this wears off and you decide to stick your willy in her again.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Shauk

wow, quite the dodge.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Xazy

I am surprised I am the only one who seems to have heard miscarriage, and think that is sad, I hope she is doing ok.

To think that is a "WIN", is sad as well, personally with that kind of attitude, maybe it would be better if you get a chastity belt, keep it on until you are willing to accept potential consequences for your actions instead of jumping up and down cheering since your child got flushed via miscarriage down the toilet, and your (ex?) gf is probably hurt physically and emotionally.

Either way I hope you try to learn from this.

---------- Post added at 04:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 AM ----------

He put her through crap as well, they are both equally responsible for getting pregnant, and unless she said before hand, hey if I get knocked up don't worry I will get an abortion, I am not sure any guy should have an expectation of that. It is our choice as men to have sex as much as hers, and we all have to deal with any consequences.

Then again I grew up with the no ding with no ring rule.

Cimarron29414

"Wah, ah, OOOhhhhh, Wah, ah, oh, oh, oh, OOOhhhh, Wah, ah, oh...Wah, ah, OOOhhhhh, Wah, ah, Ooohhhh, oh, oh, oh, Wah, ah, oh..."

Please try to learn a little something from this.

Everyone Else: I've got $10 that says I see a post from soma in a few months regarding his girlfriend who used to be pregnant. Any takers?

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dlish

true. he did put her through crap as much as she did. but if this is what you call a functional relationship, then im not sure what one is. if you cant even agree on how/when/why/who to bringi nto this world, it begs the question of compatibility given the historical context of the situation.

without question, it is still a time that he reconsider and re-evaluate this point in his life and decide which way his life should go. But agreed, it is sad that she's had a miscarriage. i couldnt imagine the emotional anguish she must be going through.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy