Lubeboy

So there's this exec at work who does snow, makes bad decisions, basically doesn't know his job, only got the job because he used to work at the company a while back. My department works closely with his department. Lately he's been making a lot of bad calls and it's impacting the quality of our work. Unfortunately the higher ups don't really see this. Some days I feel like I wish I could do something, but in the end all I can do is suck it up and do my job. Other than that I enjoy where I work. Anyone have any advice?

ratbastid

Anonymous letter to the CEO?

Jinn

Absolutely. Any CEO (or higher management) should be extremely concerned about this.

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Lasereth

Anonymous letter to upper management.

The_Jazz

I'm not going to agree. Talk to your supervisor about your concerns, but don't bring up the drugs. Just mention that the guy's performance isn't as good as your team's and that it's making you all look bad. If you know, your supervisor most likely knows, and he's the one to take it to upper management. Besides, you may not know the entire backstory as to why he's still got a job, and politics can kill a career.

Everyone else seems to think that an anonymous letter would be treated seriously. If I got one about my employees I would figure it was a smear campaign by someone who didn't even have the balls to sign their own name.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ratbastid

Maybe, but you'd also watch the subject of the letter a little differently, wouldn't you?

The_Jazz

Actually, no. I trust my people explicitely. I couldn't do what I do without them.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Lubeboy

Everyone at the company including my supervisor knows but I guess no one wants to take any action.

Willravel

Sell the guy coke, he makes more money than you.

The_Jazz

Then why do you care? They all know he has a problem. Unless his fucking things up directly affects you, why do you want to get involved?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

pig

jazz: i think that answers your questions. if i were in your shoes lube, i'd make a list of the situations in which his performance is negatively affecting your ability to do your job. then i'd find someone in upper management that i thought i could trust...hopefully someone with whom you have a slightly personal relationship, even if it's just a friendship that stays completely in the office. i'd tell them that i'm having problems stemming from the things on your list. i wouldn't bring up the coke - but i would want to firewall my performance from this other guy's performance. at the least, i'd have a personal document trail so that if the shit started to fly, i'd be able to account for my own decision-making processes. it really depends on the degree to which his decisions were affecting my performance. if i couldn't do my job correctly because of him, i'd take that issue to said manager. i'm not about narcing on people at work - i am about removing obstacles to me being able to perform my job.

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Bear Cub

Something you can do is leave.

Seriously.

I certainly would not want to work for a company that intentionally turns a blind eye to drug use and poor performance, especially when it impacts others in the workplace. Even if his actions don't impact you directly, they're a distraction, and ultimately this will take away from the quality of your own work.

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Living in the United Socialist States of America.

dirtyrascal7

I don't think Lubeboy's supervisors are intentionally ignoring this problem. He simply said that they "really don't see this". To me, that means they haven't noticed the issue on their own from their perspective. If he brings it to their attention and they look the other direction, then I would agree with you.

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Willravel

Call the police and let them know what's going on.

telekinetic

Doesn't every company with salesmen turn a blind eye towards coke use?

"Hmm, to keep up this extremely high commission income stream, I need to be able to travel, not sleep for long periods of time, be up-beat, and stay lucid despite consuming large amounts of alcohol with potential customers...if only there were some drug to help me..."

/not a salesman

//our salesmen do coke

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twisted no more

Bear Cub

Dirtyrascal: He did say "Everyone at the company including my supervisor knows but I guess no one wants to take any action." This indicates to me that they know he's doing drugs, but might not be taking notice of the poor performance.




It would seem that way, but the ones I've dealt with/interviewed for have all had pretty stringent drug policies.

More importantly though, this isn't a bottom feeder salesman we're looking at here. He did say he's an exec, so that's somewhat up the pecking order at the very least. Besides, a coked up salesman that does his job well doesn't mimic an exec with subordinates who doesn't.

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Living in the United Socialist States of America.

robot_parade

Have you talked to your management about his performance? Management isn't going to fire an exec based upon one employees griping. But if you consistantly make clear what the problem is, in a documented, professional way, you *might* have an impact.

OTOH, the guy might be doing coke with the CEO, and no amount of pointing out his failures will help. Be prepared to move on.

kramus

I am a traditionalist - go through the chain of command. Tell your immediate supervisor clearly, succinctly, and with specific examples of fucked-up work. Make sure there is absolutely no hearsay. Everything you tell your supervisor must be either backed up or could be sworn to first-hand in a meeting with upper management. Remember, this is actionable in a court of law, people sue people, careers get ruined and lots of money can be at risk. Business types get pretty damned antsy when it comes to money.
Mention you are concerned and want to get this cleared up but feel you need to go through the process of accountability - you talk to your boss, he talks to his boss and so on. Mention casually that it would be nasty if some anonymous bastard sent out a blanket company-wide email about this shit and it really should be handled professionally, and you trust your boss will carry the ball from here. Then forget about it (excepting the gossip at the cooler, but you personally ought to keep comments to a minimum).

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Willravel

Cocaine is illegal. Again, it's as simple as calling the police.

Cynthetiq

it is? if he's not carrying cocaine, or high on cocaine, it's not that simple.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Manic_Skafe

It sucks but it really doesn't matter what you think or what you believe. I can empathize with you because I can't count how many times I've felt like the only sane person at the various shitty jobs I've had.

But if everyone else knows then there isn't much of a point in opening your mouth. And if no one else can see exactly how much of a liability this guy is then perhaps you're reading more in to this then you need to.

Bear Welder is right. (Sorry Piggy - love ya babe.) Just find a new job.

And also, unless he's doing mountains of coke off of his desk then his drug habits really aren't your business.

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Willravel

Coke can be detected in urine up to 3 days after use. Besides, Lube will likely know when he's coked up.

Cynthetiq

So you're saying it's a criminal offense to have failed a piss test?

Again, if they don't catch him doing or with the drugs on his person, there's no use calling the police.

The only time that there is a difference is if the individual has priors and has a parole officer.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

You need a warrant to search his house or car. Not his office. Actually if coke shows up on a piss test, they might even be able to get a warrant.

Cynthetiq

oh sorry, you're right.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

You red herrings are getting kidna redundant there. Didn't you just use that one?

Cynthetiq

It's just not worth discussing the finer points of cocaine possession or use with respect to the police and what the DA is willing to prosecute.

So, "Willravel you are right."

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

robot_parade

In all seriousness, trying to get the guy busted for possession is likely a losing proposition. If you did go this route, I would make very sure that the 'tip' is anonymous. I'm not really sure how the police would deal with it, but as cynthetiq says, he'd have to be caught by the police with the drugs in his possession - and, honestly, do you really think the cops are going to bust into an office building, full of rich white people, and do a drug search, on your say so?

Drug busts are for poor white people, or non-white people. Rich white guys generally don't have to deal with that shit from the police.

blahblah454

Most companies have a policy where they will get you help if you have a habit. If you bring the habit up to HR anonymously I am sure they can look into getting him help. If he refuses then he can be fired.

pig

Personally, I'd stay away from trying to get the guy on "Cops." That'd be a scene I wouldn't want to get involved with, period. Not only because I agree with skafey that it's not really your business, it's also a pain in your ass. I can only try to think of it in terms of what I do for a living...I wouldn't care if one of my co-workers was putting down 8-balls at work, on his desk, and beating a small pinata while doing it...as long as it didn't interfere with my ability to get my shit done. If it was making it impossible for me to do my job, I'd bring that up. The way I'd do it is that I'd take out my project plan, I'd point out a key deliverable, and I'd say "I'm supposed to have this done by June 30th. I can't do that because SnowWhite hasn't done x, y, and z that I'm counting on in order to do a, b, and c." Now, if this guy is chummy with your boss, I'd still have my project plan laid out with what I need to have from other people, including SnowWhite. If said manager came and asked me why I didn't have a, b, and c completed, I'd just pull out the list and ask when x, y, and z would be completed. Let SnowWhite work it out with the management and the customers involved. That's his job.

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telekinetic

If you're willing to relocate to AZ, I can give you the number of a company that doesn't...my friend worked here for a year for shit pay doing instruction manuals because he doubled his salary dealing to all the sales guys and execs...hehe. Also you can wear a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops every day.

I'm leaving the company for reasons unrelated to drug policies, but related to complete lack of quality executive management...which, in a roundabout way, probably corresponds in the end.

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twisted no more

Cynthetiq

True. True. True.

But the last true he can be fired because he more than likely is employed "at will" and can be fired at any point in time and for just about any reason.

But the 2nd one, HR cannot at someone elses say so force someone to get help. In fact, HR cannot act without that individual making that decision. If there is an HR department that is worth anything, there are many loopholes that the individual in question can utilize.

edit: HR can act if the supervisor/manager requests but even then the individual has to make the choice. There's no immediate ultimatium that can be laid down oto the table. There generally has to be some sort of 1st warning, 2nd warning, and this is again, just for job performance. There are many protections that the individual can use if they are a long term employee from paid vacation, short/long term disability, Family and Medical Leave Act to hide behind as they nurse their addiction along.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

This is a great line. Thank you for making me snort (not cocaine) out loud this morning...

When I was still taking classes in grad school, one of the guys in my department was well-known for extreme self-medication with drugs and alcohol. He was a PhD student as well (still is, as far as I know), but it was less a matter of ragging on him and more wanting to help him out of that hole. I guess things would have been different if our work depended on his, but we were all working independently. If he had been in a supervisory position, I think I would have gotten too frustrated and said something to someone, or gone the anonymous-letter route.

Are there any HR people here who could speak to the issue?

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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The_Jazz

This is the dumbest idea I think you've had. (note: you're not dumb - the idea is.)

I can think of no way that would more efficiently torpedo a career than calling the cops on a superior with a recreational drug habit. If one of my people did that to one of my peers in the office, my subordinate would soon discover they were out on their ass for trumped up reasons. It's an amazing display of disloyalty, and entirely outside normal corporate channels. In effect, what you've proposed is to have the guy arrested and possibly jailed because he's making you look bad.

The proper way to do this in a corporate culture is through either your direct supervisor or through HR. If the authorities need to be called, it's HR's job to call them, not yours.

Again, if I were your supervisor and you dropped the dime on another team leader for drug abuse, I would crawl up your ass with a microscope to find a reason to fire you in the most demeaning way possible. You've set out to embarrass that individual and the company, and that's not a person I would ever want working for me.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

The long tail of that is that most industries are small. Yes you'll probably be able to get another job, but once you're blackballed labelled as a non-team player, you're in for a good treat.

People asking "So why did you leave your previous job...." can tell that something is up if you are lying, even lying via ommission. These things come out when people talk.

If you think that managers don't talk to other managers off the record or in code to bypass the "disclosure limits" of recommendations, it's a very rosy world you live in.

I can't tell you how many people that tried to fuck me at work (and not in a good way) that got fucked right back both losing their job, AND their next few prospects. And like Jazz, if it's a mission, I'll make sure that when I find out where they land, that their new boss hears about their trials and tribulations to expect. LinkedIn and other social networks are a great tool for good and bad.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Jazz

True story: back in the dark old days when I was an assistant and thought I was the shit because I had a computer with a dedicated phone line and 56k modem, I got bumped up the food chain and was allowed to sit in on interviews to hire the person who would move into my rung on the ladder. We ended up hiring this young woman who was very entrepreneurial and excited to work for us. I was impressed because she sold Mary Kay cosmetics on the side and wanted to expand those skills.

Three months later we fired her for selling cosmetics around the office. The real reason was that she ran her mouth in front of clients about what slavedriver our boss was and how the entire office was a sweatshop. I spent the next 6 months confirming that she worked there - and not saying another word - whenever she used us as a referrence. To my knowledge, she never found another job in the insurance industry.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Willravel

Marijuana is a recreational drug habit. Cocaine is not.

As an aside, I've dealt with coked up execs before. They very often have product on their person and very rarely is their addiction unknown to their superiors.

It's surprisingly difficult to fire executives. The issue with termination would be that he could have legal recourse (whether we all think it's reasonable or not, he could have a case). Calling the police anonymously allows the man to be taken from his position without any legal recourse against the company.

If I ever worked for The_Jazz and he was addicted to coke, allowing his illegal addiction to damage his place of business, I'd probably call the cops. And it has exactly nothing to do with loyalty. If Jazz murdered someone and asked me to help him dump the body, I'd also call the police. It's about loyalty to the company and loyalty to the law. Frankly, it'd be for Jazz's own good, too. A few nights in jail is a very serious way to go cold turkey.

The_Jazz

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. The two of us - one of whom works for a company owned by one of the largest banks in North America and deals with a corporate culture with competing supervisors on a daily basis and the other guy.

I'm playing golf tomorrow with some non-insurance guys that work for some very large Chicago companies (all of you have heard of them and used or seen their products at some point). I'm going to pose this question to them and see what they think. I'm guessing that the foresome is unanimous in keeping it inside the company and not embarrassing the guy.

By the way, Will, besides torpedoing your own career with this move, you might have done exactly the same to the other guy's. And if you haven't, you have definitely made yourself an enemy for life. An enemy with more power within your company and one who probably has a lot more friends in whatever industry it is. So if you're going to do this, have another job doing something completely different already lined up.

That's assuming, of course, that the police take an anonymous call about a recreational drug user seriously. In a big city, they probably have better things to do.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Willravel

I can't see how anyone would know who called the police. As I said, call it in anonymously. And if you think police are going to miss an easy drug bust with what I believe is a schedule 1 drug (not 100% sure), you must not know police. They jump at a chance for weed, let alone cocaine.

Honestly if the guy wasn't screwing up the company with his coke habit then it'd be his own problem, but he's making it the company's problem by allowing his addiction to effect his work and the work of his department.

Cynthetiq

I do know police and no they won't. Not any of the police officers that I know of would take such a call since the paperwork that comes up for dealing with such a petty offense isn't worth it. They'd rather be chasing more interesting criminals.

Maybe it's that way in podunk San Jose or Santa Cruz, but it's not that way in major metroplitans.

You are talking out your ass as an assumption that the police will pay mr. cocainehead a visit because of an anonymous phone call about someone being a cocaine USER that isn't violent or a direct or immediate danger to himself.

I will state it very clearly. Will you have NO IDEA what you are talking about and are talking out of your ass. It may be your opinion but it isn't based on an reality or facts.

As a person who speaks with addicts, drug counselors, and police on a regular basis, the police are going to do nothing with that phone call.

The only time that the police will do anything is if the individual is a DIRECT and IMMEDIATE threat to someone or themselves.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.