Ustwo

If you are working out BMI isn't even worth looking at, I think it only applies for couch potatoes. Go by how you look and feel.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Martian

Thank you!

Once more for clarity, I don't care if you're fat! Fat or thin or in between, what kind of shape you're in, I honestly couldn't care less. Go be a fucking rhombus if you want. I'll be over here doing my thing.

I'll even extend that to say that anybody who decides to spend their time mocking people based solely on their weight needs to find a hobby because it's apparent to me that person has way too much time on their hands.

If you are an overweight individual who wants to lose weight, you have my full support. Losing weight sucks, sure. It's hard. Quitting smoking had me twitching uncontrollably for a week straight, but I still did it.

If, on the other hand, you are like jennaboo4u and are unwilling to make the necessary lifestyle changes to lose weight and get in shape, I say good on ya! Enjoy that cake, watch those movies, do whatever you want to do.

The only thing I take issue with is a lack of personal responsibility. Blaming the food or the stores or (as fucked up as this is) other people for the way you are is blame dodging, and it's stupid. It tells me that you don't understand the correlation between personal freedom and personal responsibility, and that makes me seriously question if you're ready for either.

Okay, so when it comes to weight I lucked out genetically speaking. I am thin and while currently I wouldn't describe myself as fit exactly, I'm also doing battle with my particular little genetic flaw and if you want a real sob story ask me about that some time. What I don't understand is how my genetic disposition to stay thin makes it easier for me to go for a walk every day and exercise portion control.

In North America almost all of us have access to things like personal transportation and easy access entertainment and it's made us lazy. This was recently made abundantly clear to me when I made an off-hand comment to my mother (who at 50 is in better shape than most 25 year olds) about walking 5 kilometres. She seemed to think it was a long way to go, despite the fact that this is my minimum goal for every single day.

Personally, I'm still upset with it because I'm walking it and not running it and it's kilometres and not miles. Yeah, before my current tale of tragedy and woe I used to be that guy.

So here I am. Thin, yeah, cool. Horrendously out of shape and that sucks. It's hard. It was even harder back in October when I couldn't walk further than a block and a half without becoming completely exhausted. If I walked down to the end of my street I didn't know if I'd have the stamina to make it up the hill again. But christ, I went out and I did it twice a day anyway just to prove I could. And you're going to tell me losing weight is harder than that?

I've gotten on a bit of a tangent because I'm annoyed at the idea of fat people whining 'it's too haaaard!' as if anyone who weighs less than 250 lbs has never ever done anything difficult in their lives. I quit SMOKING! It's more addictive than HEROIN! And three months later I'm STILL FUCKING IRRITABLE! If you couldn't tell.

Honestly, I'm expecting my friends and family to start a petition soon requesting that I start again. I expect I'm much easier to deal with.

So, bottom line is that no, I don't care if you're fat. As this will be the fourth time I've said this, I expect it should be perfectly clear by now. If you're happy, I'm happy for you. What I do take issue with is these 'fat acceptance' and 'fat is beautiful' movements that tout being morbidly obese as a something normal and beautiful and healthy. Being fat is not healthy. In fact, it's the opposite of healthy and will probably kill you sooner than the thin smokers. If you're okay with that, then fine. But don't try to tell me that it's something positive, because it isn't.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

genuinegirly

I'm a petite, thin person. [edit: not without willpower and struggle. I walk a solid 2 miles daily and eat only what I know how to work off] My mother is unhealthily overweight and has been struggling with it for years. She suffers from a couple of medical conditions that are associated with her weight, but nothing life-threatening. The real problems come with her quality of life. She has difficulty walking because of a broken foot she had years ago that never quite healed properly, the pain is only intensified with her weight. Her confidence is shot. She studied fashion design in her 20s and loved her thin, lithe form. But she gave up on fashion along with her waistline sometime after my older brother was born.

Seeing her struggle with weight loss programs and crushed self-confidence has affected me. It has motivated me to never get to that point myself [edit: because with how much I love to eat, I easily could weigh significantly more. I have learned to provide myself metered, balanced meals at regular intervals]. I love exercise and outdoor activities. The thought of being limited by any less-than-top physical shape is nothing I want to entertain until arthritis kicks in. I've worked with my body to understand my dietary needs through metabolism changes [edit: yes, at around age 21 I hit a metabolism change. At that point, I decided to shift toward a light vegetarian menu to partially compensate], and have always been well within a healthy range [edit: thankfully, I caught myself before I gained more than 15 pounds above what I've always weighed]. Since I matured early, I'm the same now (age 25) as I was in junior high. [edit: this is not a bragging point. This is to point out that a woman at age 25 can weigh the same as she was when she was 12, assuming she was healthy then] Ok, plus some curves. [edit: thank goodness I'm no longer half of an A cup]

I feel that a negative social stigma against obesity is crucial to correcting the epidemic.

Obesity is a form of malnutrition, and should be treated as such. Dietary counseling should be available, inexpensively, to families that see the trend. Elementary education curriculum should include piecing together appropriate diets, with homework for the parents to complete with their children, including preparing balanced menus and meals. School cafeterias should only offer balanced, sugar-free meals that encourage healthy eating.

This said - obesity and "fat" are different. One can be "fat" and still be healthy. Many people view themselves as "fat" because they simply hold themselves to an unrealistic standard.

It's all about balance. Teaching one another this balance should be a priority.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

guy44

I think there are a few distinct points being made in this thread that should be addressed individually:

1. OT

The OT discussed the Fat Acceptance Movement specifically. While I am sympathetic to the ideas behind it (ending the viciousness often displayed towards the overweight, reducing the harmful effects of having a negative body image, etc.), I don't think this is something that really needs an organization and a movement. People who act likes dicks towards overweight people deserve plenty of scorn, but I just don't see why an organization needs to exist to deal with the topic. And plenty of other groups are already working to change the absurd body ideals, especially amongst women. Lastly, but also importantly, obesity is a major problem and what we really need is more help in combating that.

2. Whether or not people are often dicks towards the overweight

The answer is, very often, and being a jackass is simply never justified behavior.

3. Whether or not people in this thread have been acting like dicks towards the overweight

The answer is, some of the time. I know it is a fuzzy, subjective line between stating your beliefs and being a jerk about it, but in my opinion that line has definitely been crossed a few times. In part, because of

4. Perceived defensiveness by posters who actually are overweight

By way of explanation: a few years ago, I came out of college weighing 252, height 5'10. I finally joined a gym, started eating right, and dropped a bit over 30 pounds. I've plateaued since then, staying at around 220 (up a few, down a few), in part because I have grown lazy and don't work out quite as much as I used to. However, I still do work out and I eat pretty well - enough to maintain equilibrium without exercising every day.

It is incredibly frustrating to eat less, and better, and work out more, than most of my friends and still maintain a significantly higher weight. I'm not blaming the food industry (I know exactly what I eat, and it contains plenty of fresh produce, etc.), nor depression (I'm not), nor unfair body images. I acknowledge that I can do more to reduce my weight. But to hear it from most of the non-overweight commentators in this thread, I'm just a fat fuck completely responsible for my own pathetic situation and why can't I just find the time and energy to work out seven days a week and ingest barely enough calories to power a small child even though I'd be desperately unhappy because all my meals would taste like cardboard?

5. Self-Aggrandizement

I believe somebody else already mentioned this, but one of the more infuriating aspects of many of the posts by those who don't have weight problems is the gratuitous mention of how kick-ass their metabolism is.

I don't mean to sound defensive, or jealous, or angry, although maybe I am all those things, but there is no way that this information needs to be mentioned by every person who has never struggled with their weight. I don't begrudge anyone their body, even if it functions better than mine, but I also don't like to hear constant moralizing on the subject of weight loss from people who've never once experienced the issue in any way, shape, or form. It's fine to criticize the Fat Acceptance Movement - I did - but to do so while simultaneously spewing a bunch of stuff about pitying the fat guy in line in front of you or wondering why everyone can't make the same exact life choices you did to exercise every day just sounds like you are trying to build yourself up at others' expense, even if it isn't true.

6. Machines

We aren't machines, Ustwo and others, and we never will be. My very good friend has a sweet tooth almost as prodigious as his metabolism. Every morning in high school, he used to eat a donut and drink a Coke for breakfast. He never has eaten healthy, and never works out (hell, he's even a computer programmer), and still is quite thin.

I have managed to control my eating habits to a certain degree by willpower. I almost always eat healthy, I don't eat huge meals, and I can't even remember the last time I had dessert. And although I do work out, unless I do so very seriously for a sustained period of time, my weight maintains equilibrium. I have lost weight, and I can again, but my body doesn't do so easily. Sometimes, we're just built that way.

Furthermore, it's amazing the hatred people display towards those who have a hard time controlling their food intake. It's fucking hard, people - and to those who've never really needed to diet, you've got no idea. Stop acting like people can just flip a switch to turn off their hunger, or their love of certain foods. Has nobody on this board ever had a problem indulging in sex, or drugs, or coffee? Do you still have self-control issues with anything? Then don't be so damn quick to judge others just because their vice happens to be plainly visible.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Shauk

martian

I weigh, in the eyes of society, a metric fuckton.

at my "peak" I was 345-350 lbs.

I'm the opposite of many cases in the facet that, depression makes me lose weight.

I lose my appetite when I'm upset.

You guys know all about the trials and tribulations I suffered through mentally over my ex leaving me for some guy on the internet 10 years younger than me, it resulted in me losing 30 lbs in a matter of 2 months without even trying. The completely off comment someone made about "oh hey you're looking pretty good" because they noticed I lost weight was the motivation to lose the other part.

I'm currently down to 265 or so, however, I've lost all desire to watch my intake, but on the flipside, i'm more active than I used to be in a way, and, I just recently picked up a gym membership (today will be my 1st "real" workout) and I walk 2 miles a day minimum, 4-5 miles a day on any day that I'm DJ'ing or whatever cuz I pack all my gear around in a bag or 2.

"what's your point Shauk?"

well, basically I agree 100% with your assessment of the mentality here.

Blame shifting is bullllllllcrap. People shouldn't do it, McDonald's didn't make you fat, giving them money for their shitty fatty food and stuffing your face with it while you were also doubly lazy for not getting out of your car, or going to the grocery store, or making your own food, made you fat.

There are lots of bridges in the city for people to jump off of and hurt/kill yourself, shall we sue bridge makers for not making anti-suicide bungie cords shoot out and rescue you shortly before you hit the ground? (that'd be some straight up sci-fi stuff right there, but I digress)

Now, again, i'm in the camp with Martian here that for the most part, I don't care if you're fat or not.

I don't have "hatred" for those who cannot control the food intake. I have no pity for them either though, at the end of the day, it's a choice you make. People CAN just flip a switch. You have to commit to it instead of coming across like a weak willed sack of worthless meat.

Comparing indulgences in food and fatness next to sex/drugs/coffee? No one thinks highly of people who indulge in those things for the most part either, so it gets the same amount of "whatever" from me either way.

I can tell you right now, it's mental conditioning. A strong mind leads to a strong body. I was mentally conditioned to think that because I was bigger than all the other guys, all the time while growing up, in any school I went to, i was the biggest, therefore I required more "energy" and that required more food, more desert, more soda, more utter B.S. that bit me in the ass with bad eating habits. Both my parents are overweight and were not heath conscious at all, so it was just a compounded clusterfuck of bad mental conditioning.

It's hard to re-train yourself but it's doable, you have to want it though.

genuinegirly

Shauk, you're awesome. Has anyone told you that lately? 'cause it's really quite true.

Walking 2 miles/day - I do, too. Doesn't it feel good?

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Martian

I just got back from my six (yes, six) mile walk, and will address intervening posts momentarily.

I walked six miles today in about two hours. Part of it was because I haven't been well all week and therefore haven't gotten any exercise. Most of it was because I was honestly enjoying myself. I love going out for walks, and I honestly lost track of time. Before I knew it I'd walked myself right out of town and the sun was setting, so I turned around and started back.

This is honestly how easy it is. You don't have to go to the gym and pump iron and run on a treadmill like a hyperactive hamster. Go for a walk each evening, eat more home cooked meals and skip the snacks while you're sitting in front of the television or computer. Honestly, half an hour of exercise per day plus a healthy diet will do wonders for anyone regardless of genetics or metabolism or any of that crap. You'll look better, you'll feel better. There are no drawbacks.

Of course, I understand not everybody wants to make that commitment and that's just dandy. So long as you understand that your choices have consequences you can go right ahead and snort confectioner's sugar off a hooker's ass while drinking pure cream and eating a lard sandwich if it makes you happy.

Now, addressing guy44:

You've done this handy point system and I'm going to take advantage of that. Rather than quoting, I shall simply use corresponding numbers. I'm skipping number one because I don't feel there's anything else to be said there at the moment.

2. People are dicks to other people for all sorts of reasons. Such is life. Anything that makes you different is a potential target for harassment, and given that no two people are identical it's safe to say that everyone has something about them that makes them a target. Some people are just dicks.

3. I don't really see anybody being an asshole. I don't recall making fun of people because they're fat; the consensus seems to be as stated. Be fat if you want to be, but recognize that it's not a healthy way to live and that you're personally responsible for it.

Personally, I know that I can be a prick sometimes and am perfectly comfortable with that. Being nice is often overrated.

4. If you're happy with your weight, I say more power to you. I personally don't see how your meals could taste like cardboard (there are plenty of rich, satisfying dishes available with relatively low calorie content) but it's up to you to live your life as you see fit. So long as you're not blaming other people or telling the rest of the world that they have to go out of their way to accommodate your lifestyle choice I have no problem with it.

5. I refer you back to number 3. If anything I've said here makes me a dick, well I'm okay with that.

From an evolutionary standpoint, people who put on weight easily have the better functioning body, since they're the ones who are more efficiently processing their food and getting more out of it. Small comfort, I realize.

6. Definition of a machine: a device or system that uses input in the form of energy or fuel to do useful work.

That's exactly what the human body is. It's an incredible self-maintaining enormously complex and widely adaptable machine. We use our fuel in the form of food to do all the work involved with our lives and output the waste, as... well, output.

Your metabolism isn't a fixed thing, it adapts to current conditions. This is why starvation isn't an effective way of losing weight. The more active you are, the higher your metabolism will be as your body turns more of your food into direct energy to fuel your body, rather than storing it as fat. Combine that with a proper diet tailored to your own body's personal needs and you can do whatever the fuck you want.

It really is that easy. There's no magic formula, there's no pills or methods or anything else other than just that.

Yes, it's fucking hard. I know it's fucking hard, but even though I've never had to struggle with my weight, let me tell you brother I've faced my fair share of adversity and I know all about hard. The bottom line is either you want it or you don't. If you want it, you do it anyway. There are no shortcuts, so you just have to pound it out. If you don't, well that's fine too. As I've said all along, I could care less. Just don't go trying to change everyone else because you can't work up the necessary resolve to change yourself, and we'll get along just jim dandy.

Shauk:

It's important to keep in mind that height plays a big role here too. You're never going to weigh 165 and you shouldn't even want to. I'd say even getting below 200 lbs is probably getting too low for a guy your size. Guys in the 6'6" height range can often cap 300 lbs on muscle alone, if they're built up. Shooting for a target weight in the 250 range isn't the least bit unreasonable.

Also, never listen to what the magazines or tee vee say. When I was at peak physical condition I weighed about 165 lbs. I wasn't much thicker than I am now, but had a lot more muscle and a little less fat. Despite that, according to my BMI I was slightly overweight and that, frankly, is just fucked up.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Shauk

you get a cookie for remembering that I'm 6'6" ;p

@Genuinegirly, thanks

back @martian

I kinda feel I have to take the gym route because Walking has become such a normal thing to me (I moved into the walking lifestyle in feburary) and it's just not "exercise" to me anymore. Secondly, I just would like to be able to hop on a treadmill and have at it without worrying about all the Traffic/pedestrians/beggars/noise(both audio and visual) and be somewhere where I can stay mentally focused on what I'm doing. As I said, a strong mind is the way to a strong body so I'm going to run with this and try to stay in as a controlled of an environment as possible.

on that note, it's time to pack up my laptop and go to the gym, I just got off work

Martian

I'm good like that.

I'll expect my cookie in the mail next week then?

By all means, if you want to be a gym rat then go be a gym rat. My point was more that fitness and weight control are not necessarily a big investment in time or money. Half an hour a day and a good pair of shoes is all it takes. If you want to do more than I'm behind you the whole way (figuratively, of course).

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

I do the gym thing about five days a week and my dogs drag me on a 2 1/2 mile beach walk each morning. I don't do it so much because I want to be a "gym rat." Nor am I interested in looking like some steroid raging freak. I do the gym because I crushed my leg not long after 9-11. I spent two long periods of time on my back. First time about a year and the second right at nine months. I'm not in Shauk's height or weight class, I'm 6 even. But I've always been "big." I can't tell you the number of times, upon meeting someone new, they ask "let me guess- football, right?" "Actually no I smoked a lot dope and drank a lot in school, I thought the jocks were jerk offs, but thanks for asking."

After my second couch vacation I found I'd gained weight, not a small amount either. I had more then one doctor tell me I probably wouldn't walk again. Screw them. When I realized I been down for nine straight months I got up and started walking. I walked a couple yards at first, then a couple blocks and eventually I was walking miles. Since then I've found I have to keep moving or I feel like crap.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Nimetic

I disagree with some of the posters.

People who are overweight have higher incidences of some diseases. For sure, for some of them, the cost to the health system is higher (if it's a public one).

You should weigh the latter against the contributions that the person is making. Are they maybe a researcher working on something important? What is their profession? Maybe they are in business and their income easily pays for the increased public health cost. Maybe they are looking after a sick relative while working shifts as a nurse. Maybe they do community work. Maybe they have three kids to feed.

Don't lump everyone into the one basket. For sure, it's nice to be fit. But those who get on the treadmill regularly are often doing so due for themselves rather than for the community. Don't kid yourself... the average gym has more narcissists than saints.

Heck, my local gym is like that. And it's full of staff who are beaming the subtle message that if I was young, relatively uneducated, had no money, had no house, then I could be as fit as them.

Derwood

i have a high metabolism, but i don't think that makes me better than someone who doesn't.

Martian

...the hell?

What does 'the community' have to do with anything?

Of course people who get fit do it for themselves. It's not the sort of thing you do for your mother. Hence the rhetoric all along about personal choice.

I can make no sense whatsoever of your post.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ustwo

I agree with this.

Nimetic I don't think anyone said being fit makes you a good person.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

genuinegirly

Don't know the circles you walk in, but most of the researchers that I interact with at the University of California are underweight because they forget to eat.

This is a bunch of BS. "If you're wealthy, you have every right to be a glutton!"


While I respect your desire to stand up for the selfless, I must point out something rather harsh.

One who does not take the necessary effort to balance their life with their nutritional needs is not equipped to best support the needs of those around them.

They have the option of walking to work, walking around the block with their loved ones in tow, and/or running in place while performing basic chores. Heck, they could make a habit of tapping their foot constantly. There are THOUSANDS of ways that one can find a way to burn calories, to see to their personal health while attending to the needs of others.


Sounds like you just did. Really, you're saying overweight = saint? = of intrinsic value to society? What a bunch of BS.


You pointed out increased health costs to the public due to obesity and yet you're saying someone wouldn't get on the treadmill for their community
You're contradicting yourself.

Sounds like you need to either find a new gym or find alternative ways of working out that don't surround you with this negative stereotype.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Tully Mars

Yeah, what she said.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

uncle phil

same here, tully...

you go, gg...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Ilow

Lasereth, I really appreciate the effort that it took to stay with a program that was not helping you meet your goals, that is perseverance. However, statements like this lead me to believe that you would greatly benefit from more education. No one's BMI will decrease when they gain weight. It is a simple mathematical formula. Unless you grow in height, you cannot gain weight (muscle or fat) and decrease your BMI. As Ustwo has said, if you were not losing weight, even though you were on a strict regemin, you must not have been doing something right. I would suggest that you see a professional to get the most out of the obvious effort that your are expending.

Now that that is aside, back to the topic. Like many people, I view the vast, vast majority of overweight, and obese people as making poor lifestyle choices, rather than having poor genetics. I realize that there are fuckers out there who can eat a whole cow and look like a Kenyan marathoner, however, nearly everyone can be relatively healthy, and reduce comorbid conditions, such as diabetes and heart problems by eating well and getting moderate exercise. The human body is pretty much a machine in this respect, garbage in-garbage out. People make lots of mistakes--working out at too high or a heart rate thinking that higher is better for losing weight, eating too little, thinking that that is good, when in reality it is sending the body into "starvation mode" etc. If anyone is having difficulty losing weight, there are resources out there to help you, most everything else is just an excuse.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Ustwo

Perhaps the funny thing about this thread is the day I read it I ate 4 donuts and had fries/burger for dinner.

Keep that up and I'll need to join the group

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Lubeboy

I don't care if you're fat or not just as long as you're a not rude slob, you're ok in my book.