Willravel

It's a bit different, though. If I say you're hot, it's a subjective physical impression and usually a compliment. If you call me stupid, it's either an objective observation (if you were talking about someone with a low IQ) or an insult.Stupid? Do you mean ignorant to social norms? If so, then social norms aren't consistent. Presumptuous need not apply, though, as "I'd hit it" is not "I'm going to hit it".

I could understand if you said it was disrespectful, because that makes perfect sense, but sexual attraction combining a loose interpretation of what's socially acceptable doesn't seem to scream stupid or presumptuous.


Men objectify women. Women objectify men. We all have physical form, and said physical forms can be sexually pleasing to other people. I can't comprehend being offended by that. Yeah, if you weren't appreciated for your big sexy brain I could see you being frustrated with people not liking ALL of you, but MM and Abaya (and all the ladies of TFP), everyone here on TFP loves you for your big sexy brains. Many women on TFP don't even post pictures and are well respected and well liked.

The funny part is I rarely say "I'd hit that" and it's always in jest.

Jinn

It's quite interesting that I've yet to hear a female say that "I'd hit it" is an appreciated, or even appropriate thing. Onesnowyowl's "I've taken the phrase back" is analogous to African-Americans calling each other niggas as a way to defuse the outright offensiveness of its counterpart.

I'll admit that this was a silly thread as soon as a woman comes forward saying she APPRECIATES reading "I'd hit that" on one of hundreds of posts on TFP. Or a female who thinks that it teaches them good things about who they are and what they're actually valued for.

As of yet, the only ones defending such an objectification are men who (quite naturally) assume that it isn't offensive because they themselves are not offended by it. While it might be natural, it's also naive.

As an aside to men who would actually care to learn about what their media and their words says to women, check out Dreamworlds II or Dreamworlds III. They're prohibitively expensive, but check them out at a library if you can. I promise that they're worth it.

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abaya

I don't know if MM agrees with this or not, but in the discussion I just had about this with my husband, I discovered that I wasn't being clear about one bit: I DON'T have a problem with men and women being sexual beings and feeling attracted to all kinds of people. Yes, that is totally normal and fine and unoffensive. I am not interested in some kind of sexual thought police.

However, what offends me is the social need for expression of these thoughts among groups of men, as some means of achieving "camaraderie"... as if there are no better ways to go about "bonding" with people. Why do such thoughts need to be voiced? Why descend to that level? Why not challenge each other to go UP a level and talk in a respectful way about women? Because no one wants to be the "loser" who spoils everyone's fun by asking, "Would you talk about your daughter like that? Then why are you talking about other women like that?"--and risk being laughed at or accused of having a stick up one's ass? Is it so insufferably uncool to be the man in the group who actually RAISES the standard of the conversation?

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Ustwo

If you are an attractive female let me into the heads of the men you have met...

Female: Hi, my names Amy, whats yours?
Male 1: I'm what you have been looking for baby, oh momma, I'd hit you like the angry fist of God, you know what I mean toots?

Translation: God I'd like to fuck her.

Female: Hi, My names Amy, whats your?
Male 2: Jack, so very nice to meet you. Say haven't I seen you in Dr. Thompson's lab?
Female: Yes, he is my research mentor for my PhD in high energy physics, I'm working on the singularity project.
Male 2: Singularity project? (laughs) I hear you are going to destroy the planet.
Female: (chuckles) Yes I read that too, sometimes you wonder why the press prints that crap but then you remember what they were like in undergrad.
Male 2: I don't think I ever met a sober journalism major, anyways tell me more about your research.

Translation: God I'd like to fuck her.

One is socially inept, one is less so, both with to achieve the same result.

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Charlatan

I am mixed on this. I am quite aware of the offensiveness of the statement and how it objectifies women and yet, from time to time I have been known on Internet forums to pipe up with an "I'd hit it" or "I'd like to tap that"...

From my point of view, humour is transgressive. The fact that it is offensive, is what makes it funny for me. The fact that the likelihood of me *ever* "tapping that ass" is about as close to zero as you will ever get is what makes it funny for me.

That said, I have never been a big fan of groups of guys standing around nudging each other and saying, I'd like to fuck her, as beautiful woman walks by. I know why it happens, I can even appreciate why it happens and have even participated. That said, I always feel a little queazy afterwards. Like a smarmy businessman on the make or a frat boy with a gullet full of Old Milwaukee.

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Jinn

Absolutely spot on, Abaya. Mind if I put this in my signature?

[EDIT, saw Ustwo's post]

I resent the implication that all men behave in such a juvenile manner. It might be hilarious to you to create a hypothetical situation like this, but this not how things happen for some men.

SURPRISE: Some men are actually capable of maintaining a conversation without having a side conversation with their penis about where they should put it. While you might think that they have the same effect, the second response has a drastically different effect in that the woman at least BELIEVES that you aren't an asshole thinking about the fastest way into their pants. So if this is really how you think, it probably works better for you to disguise your unending lust in the guise of actual conversation. But for those of us not in an unending conquest to fuck, it's possible to have AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION ABOUT SOMETHING MEANINGFUL.

For the record, I don't actually believe that YOU think this way all the time either. I think this is a funny "anecdote" so you can fit in with the guys talking about 'hitting it.' If you actually put some thought into it, I imagine you aren't always thinking about sex when you're having a conversation with a woman who MATTERS to you.

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Charlatan

Actually the first example is likely to net him a slap across the face... The second, is more likely to result in getting laid.

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Willravel

I'm a 24 year old man with a career in a committed relationship. I play Playstation 2 (Star Wars Battlefront, to be particular). I really love Batman and Superman. Sometimes I drive my car—a car that looks like a big toy—fast. I laugh about the stupidest things ever with friends. I say funny things to my guy friends that I wouldn't say to my mother or my daughter (just ask Crompsin). I descend to that level every now and again. It's fun.

There's no harm in being somewhat infantile from time to time. Why should someone be chastised for laughing at a fart or an open zipper? You can pretend that you're always an adult, but if that's true you might just be missing out on a lot of fun. Not every conversation is about establishing gender equality in Afghanistan and how the Taliban have been replaced by drug running warlords who still can't seem to understand that women are human beings, too. Not every conversation is about what we can do to eliminate the glass ceiling and how disgusting it is that women still earn like $0.75 to the dollar of what men make.

Jinn

I'm not denying that it DOES act as camaraderie and I'm not denying that it is usually intended in just, NOR am I denying that I, myself, have done it.

What I originally asked in the OP is how we can achieve the same ends (bonding and camaraderie) without objectifying women in an offensive way. Certainly there are ways to be jovial and funny without conversations about "hitting it."

There are plenty of ways to talk about the attractiveness of women and having sex with them without implying that you'd fuck her twelve-ways from Sunday. (NOTE: Especially on a forum where both men AND women participate).

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ktspktsp

Good point. I was trying to formulate earlier in which context this expression works, and for me it has a lot to do with how unlikely it is to happen. Basically it works for unlikely and borderline abstract scenarios. When it becomes a statement about a possible scenario, the objectification makes me uncomfortable. But when it comes to more "abstract" objectification I don't have a problem with it. As long as it's occasional.

Yeah. There is something very uncomfortable to me about being in a large all-guy group and having a sexualized discussion of this sort.

Ustwo

Again, lighten up.

Today I had a patient whos a med student, shes also attractive, we had a very nice conversation, and my reptile brain wanted to fuck her brains out too. Were I single I may have tried harder to move in that direction. Maybe you are nicely Alan Alda like and tamed, but sorry when I see an attractive woman, wondering what she looks like naked is always part of my thought process.

The issue is, so what? I see nothing wrong with it.


Thats what I meant of course, both want to get laid, one has a better chance, but both are doing what they are doing with the same goal in mind.

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Cynthetiq

Intellectually agreed.

I do find though that maybe via the sociological apparatus it is what we do as human beings. If it wasn't via these words it would be with other words, it is about that pecking order and socio-language for acceptance and persuasion.

If one looks at the teasing that happens, it's part of the sociological game, it is shameful, hurtful, and downright mean sometimes. But there is a sociological reason that it happens, it is a mechanism for how we learn in some capacity.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but maybe you can understand what I'm talking about if you look at it from a scholar's point of view.

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Charlatan

Objectification happens. I don't disagree with Ustwo's scenario with the woman in his chair. If I meet an attractive woman, there is a part of me that does react and wonder what she'd look like naked what it would be like to have sex with her. I think that is only natural.

The issue at question here is more along the lines of what do we do with these impulses. I am all for immature behaviour. I just think that with any actions we take, any words we use we need to think about the implications of what we are doing and saying.

This is the same as using the "gay" (as in, "you are so gay" or "that is so gay"). You may think you are just kidding around but there is meaning to words you utter and the meaning is not always pretty.

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mixedmedia

Well, I had a margarita and now I am back.

Reading over all this again, I feel like I am being used to counteract an argument I am not making against people who are not guilty of the actions I am arguing against. Could it be that I am coming up against a fraternal reaction?

I've stated plainly more than once that I am not talking about men who make these statements jokingly once in a while. I am talking about the men who are being parodied in these incidental 'i'd tap that' moments of whimsy. Certainly, you realize when you are saying these things, will, Martian, others, lol, that you are parodying the behavior of other men out there. Real men.

I said this:
I said this:
...obviously not aimed at guys who use the phrase occasionally in a joking manner.

Yet I am responded to by guys who say themselves that they only use the phrases occasionally in a joking manner, yet are somehow still in disagreement with me. Are you here to defend guys who do not use the phrases occasionally in a joking manner? If you are, I think you should make that clear.

If not, then consider condemning the usage, because I think there is merit to cyn's comparison to the objectification of racial epithets and these kinds of sexually overt comments about women.

If this is what you have a problem with, then by all means let me know and we can discuss it. But if you just want to make a generalized argument with me because I am a woman taking issue with the way some men behave then you'll have to state your case explicitly as it applies to these men.

Thank you.

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kramus

When I was 15 and working my first steady job with a landscaping crew of marginal citizens I participated in those "har-har lookit that" group discussions as a means of protective colouration. The absurdity of the conversation was and is part of it's pleasure, in my opinion. Some citizen will not randomly walk over to a sweaty labourer and fuck him right where he stands. We were either toothless and tatooed, grimy, smelly, or in my case a 15 year old skinny kid.
It was like learning a whole new language, communicating in this jail-bird/seasonal worker/un-educated mileau I found myself. Some of those habits of speech have stuck with me because I remained a blue-collar worker the last 30 years.
I have spent many an hour in mixed company doing boring repetitive work and sharing conversation with men and women both about idle things like enjoying the weather, good food, the latest songs on the radio . . . and who was hot and why. The conversation has it's place. As was stated earlier, not all interactions involve Taliban or glass ceilings. Some are just idle chit-chat to pass the interminable shift hours until it is time to punch the clock and go home.
In my original post I mentioned how I like the phrase "I would" because of it's simplicity and lack of baggage.
BTW I hung on to that Clinton pic because I am pretty sure the "I'd hit it" meant he too would have smashed the Taliban in Afghanistan - the timing of that photo taken in 2001 with the other former presidents seems to back me up on that. Britney was pure fun - "hit me 2 times" is a phrase of hers I think.
If you can keep the conversation easy and flowing there is nothing wrong or objectifying to an occassional "I would", no matter how you word it. If someone at some time is able to give the phrase enough baggage that it becomes akin to the "n" word then a self-censoring will take place and there will be some other easy conversational way for either and both sexes to mention that person "A" is attractive and probably nice to get close and personal with. To me it is on the same level as mentioning how a swimming pool would be nice to jump into on a hot day, when the odds of being able to jump into that particular pool at that particular time are zero.

Hi to you too, The_Jazz

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JumpinJesus

I haven't read all the responses, so this might have already been said, but...if "I'd hit it" or whatever vernacular is being used at the time is harmless and inoffensive, let's remove the rule from another forum (you know which one) and allow all responses to be as base as can be. Let's allow discussion of which members we'd like to fuck.

If you're not in favor of relaxing the rule, could you explain why not?

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mixedmedia

I missed this one somehow. But I think most people around here are aware of my own views about sex. But for those who are not, I love sex. I adore sex. Sex. Sex. Sex. It's on my mind at least 1/3 of every day.

But I'm just as inclined to think that my response to this issue is influenced by my love for sex as opposed to a negative response to sex or the expression of a person's sexuality.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

match000

Hey I haven't read all the responses (not even close) b/c I don't even think its that big of a deal.

When me and my friends say it, its just joking around. Its usually our way of *complimenting* the girl; with our huge "men egos", only the HOTTEST girls get a "i'd hit it" or a "i'd tap it". Any girl less than hot / top-notch cute doesn't even get a comment. If a girl is not cute, we'd never say it around our friends -- we have standards too eh, and men subconciously "compete" with each other on who's standards is better.

Also, its a cooler way for us to say "i'd like to have sex with her" and way less crude than "i'd bang her." And in no way does "hit" imply violence -- its just a slang that has a cool edge and was adopted commonly.

my $0.02

fresnelly

When men are alone together, be it on a jobsite, sportsteam, at a boarding school etc... a lot of dynamics come into play and immaturity is only one of many bonding mechanisms.

We're constantly testing each other for masculinity, forebearance and aptitude. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's tiresome, and sometimes it's scary (See "Hazing"), but it can be constant. So when you add a woman into the mix, either as a part of the group or as a passerby, guys will immediately and unifyingly shift focus away from themselves onto the new target.

The degree of this behaviour is also linked to setting of course. A locker room or construction site will be much tougher than a marketing meeting, but it's usually there in some form or another.

So to answer your question (but not excuse the behaviour) I believe that it's partly because of our wired attraction to women, but also as an escape from the roiling tension and jockying that underscores an all male environment.

Put another way: We're already at that level when you walk in the room.

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ngdawg

Trust me....
Get to my age and hearing "I'd hit that" would make you dance down the sidewalk....

As with anything else said or done, just consider the source and forget it.

And yes, women do objectify men too. Anyone who says they never have is lying or suffering from dementia. I don't see "I'd hit it" as so derogatory and chauvinistic as to be a real issue. Everyone says it or something akin to it at one time or another.

And, please,all, for the love of everything sweet and good in the world, don't use that non-word, "irregardless"....made my skin crawl!!!!

match000

hum yea i was gonna mention that i bet women do the same too.

what's women's equivalent?

Willravel

I've only heard it is passing, but it has something to do with an elephant.

mixedmedia

Well, I believe you ng, but I don't believe I'll ever dance down the sidewalk after hearing some dude say he'd like to do me...it's just not what floats my boat. I did have someone tell me recently that I was a lot of fun to argue with, though...I must admit that tweaked the pink bits a little.

I'll also take your word for it and accept that I have at times objectified men. The only times I have done this in my cognizance, though, is when I have seen men with their cocks out, hard and posing for pictures. Yes, this peaks my interest. But, I think that's a little different...whether we're talking about men or women. I will acknowledge a man with a handsome or otherwise interesting face, but I do not imagine myself fucking them when I do so. Nor do I imagine my hand in their wallet or sitting behind the wheel of their fancy sportscar.

And I was called out for using 'irregardless' one time before and it was humiliating. Hope I didn't do it again. doh!

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Only level 1 grammar nazis call people on "irregardless", which actually is a word. *former grammar nazi*

MM, you really don't objectify men when their members aren't displayed for you? No offense, but that strikes me as a bit odd.

Ustwo

When I was in college I was in a dorm that alternated male/female floors.

I used to wear sweat pants a lot being a college guy, and sometimes you hang free in them, underwear is just more to wash.

I learned (sadly after I left the dorm) from a friends girlfriend that the rumor with the top floor girls was that I was hung like a horse.

I thought it was pretty cool that a dorm floor of women objectified me, even if I was oblivious to it at the time.

Ah to be 19 again.

I've caught myself being objectified a few times in the last year, I caught one woman checking me out as I was sitting with my legs spred a bit and displaying more than I intended, she was motioning to the woman next to her at the time, she turned a bright shade of red when she saw I was looking at her.

Honestly I rather enjoy it, I'd far rather be objectified than ignored

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mixedmedia

No, I don't. And I don't think it's odd at all.

I've had this conversation here so many times. Maybe I truly am odd, but I don't see men and picture myself having sex with them. I become familiar with men and get a sense of who they are and then I may fantasize about having sex with them during masturbation. But even this is rare and usually occurs with men I am involved with. But no, I do not walk down the street checking out guys and thinking about fucking them. I'm just not that attracted to physical characteristics.

Well, wait....

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

anything that anyone says could be understood as a word.
irregardless: because it said by stupid people, irregardless is a word that circulates amongst stupid people irregardless.

on the thread:

most of the posts seem like they come from very defensive boys who can't respond to a simple question irregardless of how simple the question is.

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mixedmedia

No, it's been a while since I've done this, but there have been times in my life when I have imagined sex with men I see around, flashes of sexual positions and scenarios, and it is regardless () of what they looked like. I guess 'cause I'm getting laid more regular now, I don't do it anymore. This would be almost like an exercise, it became habitual, but I would picture myself with men of all ages, races, cultural leanings, what have you...from the bearded homeless guy on the corner, to the fat Jewish guy at the deli, to the young WASP stud walking his dog in the park. But it's always been something going on in my head that was secret and I liked it that way. I wouldn't want to go around blabbing about it all day.

But if this is akin to what you guys are talking about, that's fine. The looking and the thinking is not what I take issue with.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ngdawg

Threadjack: sorry, dude... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless
one of the explanations: an erroneous word that, etymologically, means the exact opposite of what it is used to express, attested in non-standard writing from 1912, probably a blend of irrespective and regardless. Perhaps inspired by the double negative used as an emphatic.

OK, back to ogling, hitting and sexism

Why does how she sees men seem odd? Personally, I envision them all with their pants off, but that's probably seen as odd too. Bet lots of ladies here played the "boxers or briefs" guessing game. Would that be considered "objectifying"?

Martian

So what do you take issue with? I'm a bit confused by that. Is it that we're not ashamed to express it? Surely you don't think all men intend on acting on such thoughts, so I can't imagine it's that. And not all men see women as only a pair of tits and an ass. There are men out there like that, but there are idiotic women too; that's certainly not a phenomenon that's tied to the Y chromosome.

Objectification occurs. It's natural and it's a part of life and there's nothing wrong with it. If I see an attractive woman walking down the street I'm certainly not going to think 'wow, she has a big, sexy brain.' I don't even know her name, and am therefore certainly not appreciating whatever intellectual merits she may or may not have. It's a purely physical response. How is it wrong, then, if I express this to my friends in the appropriate context? I would argue that for the vast majority of men in the vast majority of situations it has to be said at least partially in jest; after all, we're not intending to actively pursue a sexual relationship with every attractive woman we see. All other concerns aside, I simply wouldn't have the energy to do so. Therefore, when I say it there is almost by definition a sense of irony involved; I know it's not going to happen, but it's a way for me to express in an amusing way my appreciation for that particular woman's physical attractiveness.

I've never understood why it should be wrong for me to admire a beautiful woman. In the same sense, I've also never understood why it should be wrong for me to express an appreciation of that woman's beauty. I may recognize the necessity of repressing such sentiments in certain social contexts, but that doesn't mean I understand it.

Oh, but I would hit that.

(Had to be said.)

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vanblah

More threadjacking ... but I've already said my piece with regard to the OP ...

Sorry to ngdawg ... and with all due respect ... <i>irregardless</i> IS a word as recognized by that irrefutable source: the <i><a href="http://www.oed.com/">Oxford English Dictionary</a></i>

HOWEVER ... it is not supposed to be used in "normal" speaking (See "1934 WEBSTER" entry above). Irregardless ( )... the OED has been known to <i>remove</i> words at times.

The more you know ...

Willravel

According to my last english teacher (professor specializing in early 20th century literature who taught at a doctorate level), while the word is not standard, it is still allowable so long as one does use it as a double negative.
No, ng, it's not odd that you imagine men with their pants off. As a matter of fact it's endearing. And yes, it's objectification, but I think we've established that most men don't mind being objectified. MM does, but more than that she doesn't really seem to do it herself. When I say odd I'm not saying that she's lying or that there's something wrong with her, merely that I've never heard of that before.... but wait:
Oh. You have objectified men. Well this is a pretty good idea of how men are, but add onto it that some of us will occasionally share it with another man as an attempt at commonality. "She's hot!" followed by "Yeah!" is about as close as most men come to emotional bonding.

ngdawg

Note that it is 'recognized' as a nonstandard, humorous usage borne of two words. In writing, it'd knock off some serious points and in speech, is grating.

So....boxers or briefs, handsome?

vanblah

Absolutely ... and I agree with you; I can't stand the usage of the word simply because most people wouldn't <s>use it correctly</s> correctly use it. EDIT 3 ... and THAT'S a split infinitive. Fuck all!

Whatever gets me the most points?

aberkok

Will, when you welcome objectification for yourself and think that somehow that makes it alright to therefore objectify women, you ignore the hegemony (am I using that big word correctly?) of the situation.

The same goes for anyone who uses the phrase "lighten up" when these sorts of discussions occur. It's really not for the member of the dominant group (in this case men, but insert powerful segment of society here, be it whites, or the rich, etc.) to tell the subordinate to lighten up. There's quite a long history of oppression.

MM, I like the way you pose the question. As far as I know these gents on TFP, they are fine upstanding dudes, but: who exactly are you all speaking for when you defend the culture of "I'd hit that?"

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Willravel

Hegemony means leadership. I think what you're trying to say is that women and men are different. I know this, but I find that starting with similarities, such as objectification of the opposite sex (or the same, if you're homosexual), makes sense when one is bridging the gap.

Men are not dominant over women in my environment, though. My bosses boss is a woman, and she owns the whole building. My SO is a woman (surprise!) and she's dominant in many things. All women are dominant in sex.

I've never oppressed anyone, except a few republicans.

mixedmedia

#1 What makes you think I'm ashamed? I said that it was personal to me. It was mine. And I liked it that way. I hardly equate verbalizing 'i'd tap that' with liberation.

#2 I already addressed the rest of these observations. Go back and read my posts. You are taking issue with me only for the reason that I do not like men who say sexually overt things about me or behave in sexually overt ways towards me in my presence. And if I see a man who makes these kinds of statements about women often in a way that is too frequent for humor and irony, then I lose a great deal of respect for them. Sorry. Can't help it. I think it's stupid.

If you want to defend these men. Please do. Thus far, no one has wanted to touch that subject. It keeps turning into, 'well, I only do it in a joking way,' when that is explicitly NOT what I am talking about.

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aberkok

Hooray! Men and women are equal!

I see my timid, self-effacing manner has been wasting time:

Will, you say that you know men and women are different, but are trying to "bridge the gap." Deciding that objectification occurs on a level playing field is simply being willfully (haha see what I did there?) ignorant of a history of... well I said it in my previous post and I hope I don't have to convince anyone that historically, women have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to being treated as objects.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Willravel

We don't live in the 1950s. It's okay to admit that while that happened, it's not the norm anymore. I don't hold a grudge against the Romans for making my forefathers into slaves.

Martian

It wasn't my intention to imply that you're ashamed of whatever you may think or feel. What I was attempting to highlight is that there are men who feel the exact same thing and who have no problem expressing it. Within the 'culture of masculinity' (whatever that is) it's seen as normal and a way of reinforcing bonds in a masculine way. And I personally see nothing wrong with that.

I think you're misunderstanding me, as I'm not taking issue with you at all. I'm simply pointing out that this can be way of expressing (albeit crudely) an identical sentiment that is often considered harmless or even romantic in a different context. And you still haven't answered my question. You don't have any problem with guys thinking these things, and I'm still assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't assume these same guys intend to act on these thoughts. Is it the expression that you take issue with, and if so why?

If you want me to tell you why some men are boorish and stupid, you're going to be disappointed. I don't have an answer to that. Some people are stupid. Such is life.

I'm hesitant to put words into willravel's mouth, but what I personally am attempting to highlight is that even though men and women are different in some ways, this isn't one of them. We all have sexual thoughts about strangers. Some of us express them, other's don't. That's really the only difference, and I don't think it's as clear cut across genders as might first be assumed.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame