vanblah

Well, abortion is nothing new nor are we the only animal that does it.

I'm certainly pro-choice--but I don't agree that it's always the right decision and it certainly shouldn't be made lightly. Who's to say that every young mother will turn out to be a welfare statistic? My mom was 17 when she conceived my older brother with my father. We were never on welfare ... (but just to be fair my parents did divorce when my mom was 23 about 2 years after I was born; so statistically speaking we fit right in).

Again, I will reiterate, abortion may or may not be the right decision ... but it may not fit in with your plan since your daughter is the one who will really have to make the decision.

QFT.

Also, I just realized that in my post to which you are replying I implied that 6-year-olds are not human ...

I want to state for the record that my 6-year-old is very much human; despite the way she acts sometimes.

Ustwo

I can say I'm wiser because Jinn's choice was have an abortion or you are a dumb ass who ruined your life.

Thats simply not true.

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Willravel

Hey, Ustwo, what would your answer be to the OP? I'm just honestly curious.

Ustwo

To dependent on other variables.

I've known idiots who knocked up their girlfriends (and I think they are idiots for it yes, BC isn't rocket science) but they have been together for 20 years now. It can work and if the situation was such I'd be ok with that. A lot would depend on the quality of the boy and his parents as well. If his parents were interested in working it out as well and he seemed to have a clue it would positivity influence that avenue.

If it was apparent a long term relationship would not work out for whatever reason, I'd recommend adoption.

I'd be in favor of abortion only for health, rape, or very unusual circumstances. Such as she is a genius (who couldn't figure out birth control somehow) and had a very limited window to do a once in a life time program. I suppose the same could be said if she were on an athletic scholarship. I'd not recommend it as a rule if she was getting the typical Mrs. degree though. I don't think 9 months of your life is that long.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Infinite_Loser

If everyone who agrees with abortion was aborted before they were born, then we'd never have to worry about an abortion topic as there wouldn't be anyone to defend the practice.

On topic, though, I can definitely say I'm wiser than anyone who would have an abortion. Why? 'Cuz I'm not foolish enough to get anyone pregnant if I can't handle the consequences.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Plan9

Wrong. We have these things called "free will" and "education."

Or would you like to abort human choice, too?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Infinite_Loser

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: Free will =/= Free reign to do as you please. Because you can doesn't mean you should.

And I'm all for human choice, just so long as we abort those who make, or agree with, the wrong one.

>_>

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

vanblah

Sorry for the threadjack here: but does this mean that you want to kill anyone who disagrees with you?

jewels

You can but you won't? I don't get what you're saying. I've never complained about any decisions I've made, nor do you know what those were, so I know you're not talking about me here.

I don't think nine months of your life is too long either. Who should decide what you do for the next nine months?

I realize you're sensationalizing selected responses. But the fact remains that most Pro-Choicers are just that. We're for abortion when it's the best choice. I stated my preference, but I would definitely be sure my child knew that carrying that baby for herself or for adoption were viable options.

You've never been a girl or a woman and never experienced the possibility of being in that position. Yes, you're a father but you've never been the mother of a teenage girl and been around multitudes of teen girls as an adult. You come across as lacking with the compassion and integrity it would take to support your daughter when she needs it most. (Although I somehow get the feeling that you're a big pile of mush around your kids. )

Hijack Shmyjack, I don't care. At least we know that you would make that decision on behalf of your daughter.

Remind me to tell you one day about my cousin's controlling father and the impact it had on her life.

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Mark Twain

Mantus

I'd support an abortion. Wouldn't make the kid go against her wishes though. If she chose to keep it I would support that choice and kick her out on her ass.

Charlatan

First of all, I would hope that if she was mature enough to have sex that she would be mature enough to make the call on what to do about getting pregnant without needing my input.

That said, if she asked for my advice, I would discuss all of the available options. Tell that I would support whatever she decides. Then let her decide what to do for herself.

I won't list what the options are because every situation is different but it would include:

Abortion
Adoption
Keeping the baby

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- Old Man Luedecke

Infinite_Loser

(Unprotected) sex invariably leads to pregnancy. In other words, that 'something' was growing exactly where it was supposed to be, as per nature.

So instead you'll just kill it. That's terribly flawed logic.

I'd just like to point out that it has nothing to do with insensitivity nor does it have anything to do with being male. One doesn't need to be female or have had an abortion in the past to discuss abortion-- Otherwise, you'd have to discount the opinion of *every* male on this board and not just the ones you don't agree with.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

RangerJoe

As a side note, I'd like to know how everyone's reactions would differ if their son came home and said he got a girl pregnant.

vanblah

Pretty much the same way. I don't have a son ... but my reaction would depend upon the kind of person he is.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I would NEVER "kick out" a child of mine for something like this and I find it incredibly disturbing that anyone WOULD kick out their own children. Unless a teenager is physically abusive I don't really understand how you could.

What a great way to show support.

Mantus

My bad...forgot this forum was serious business

Plan9

Mine would be the same. Flush-the-fetus! Whether or not the girl's parents agree? Who knows?

If I have kids... I'm buying them condoms for their 15th birthday.

I sure they'll already have some experience with them by then anyhow.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

vanblah

If it was a joke, I apologize for my reaction. This wasn't in the humor forum and sarcasm doesn't come through very well in writing. It's sometimes very hard for people to guess (or second-guess) the intent behind written words since we rely so much on body language in everyday speaking.

jewels

You mean it's not your logic.

It has everything to do with insensitivity. How can you care more about what happens to a fertilized ova more than for a woman, a living, breathing, thinking, albeit flawed human being?

And I don't believe *every* male on this board shares your lack of sensitivity.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Hain

I would make sure my son or daughter made a decision that he/she could live with. I believe there is no worse and cruel judge than one's self. I would help in any way, but the choice and consequences will ultimately weight upon him/her.

If it was my son, I would make sure he fulfills his duty to provide for and help with the girl he got pregnant, whatever choice they decide. If my daughter told me she was pregnant, I would damn straight make sure the guy that got her pregnant did all he can to help her and provide for her with her decision. Legally of course, regardless of my frustration at the situation.

An ex girlfriend and I once mused about what our kids would be like. This ultimately lead to the topic of pregnancy and abortion. She told me something that weighed heavily on me. "If I got pregnant, I would have an abortion. I would never tell you." I realized how much such knowledge would in deed weigh upon me. I would not be able to live with myself. That's why I'd make sure they can accept the consequences of their actions.

We all came from there, didn't we? We all ended here, didn't we? I am not going to argue abortion. I've already explained my sentiments on it, and those sentiments are not shared universally. Sometimes it is the only option. I just can't believe it would be an option faced by my self and my SO.

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////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

Infinite_Loser

People only get upset over things they perceive to be true. Obviously you, at some level, don't believe what you typed out otherwise you wouldn't be up in arms over what I said. Contrary to what my signature says, I don't deem myself superior to anyone, but I do like to believe that I'm better equipped to make informed decisions and accept the consequences of those actions than certain people are.

*Points above*

If you want flowery, sugar-coated words then you're definitely barking up the wrong tree.

Okay... So let me get this straight. You're the one who became pregnant at 16 and ran off and got an abortion without notifying your parents because you "didn't want it" yet *I'm* the immature one? Mmmkay.

Notice I never once actually called you immature, but since you want to play that little game... Yes, I'm calling you-- And anyone else who resorts to having an abortion-- As immature. As many times as I say this, people either ignore it or try to make it much more complicated than it actually is; Either you have sex, accept the consequences of those actions and (wo-)man up and take care of any child produced as a result of those actions (Rape nonwithstanding, of course) OR you keep your pants on/stick strictly to self-indulgence.

Because the overwhelming majority of abortions aren't done for the well-being of the female, but for matters of convenience or because it would "ruin her life" (Hah! I wish, as a guy, I could get away with the "It would ruin my life" excuse). That's why.

Okay... Lemme' try this again. To discredit the opinions of someone based on the fact that they're 1.) Not a female and 2.) Never had an abortion would mean that you would have to discredit the opinion of *every* male and *every* female who hasn't had an abortion. Either you accept the opinions of everyone-- Not just those whom you agree with-- Or you accept none. You can't pick and choose >_>

Oh, and because I don't try to rationalize/excuse destructive behavior doesn't make me 'insensitive'.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

LoganSnake

Infinite_Loser, you're completely wrong because I don't agree with you.

That statement makes about as much sense as pretty much every post you've made in this thread. You have an opinion: congratulations. Don't try to force your opinion on others who have their own opinions.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Infinite_Loser

Notice the only time I said someone was 'wrong' was in jest (Post #48).

Oh, and about the whole opinion thing... *Points to the bottom of post #63*

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

LoganSnake

Saying that somebody's logic is flawed (as compared to yours, I assume) is a form of saying that they're wrong the way I see it. You might be able to prove false logic if the topic wasn't so subjective.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Willravel

Ourcrazymodern?-ism:
I was born and so were all of you.

LoganSnake

Well, my mom actually wanted me, so that would explain my presence in this realm you call reality.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Nole of 4UrMe

Okay, I accept in advance the quality and quantity of flaming I will likely be enciting against mysef; but . . . my daughter is 22, graduated from college, and a manager at her work. Even with all that, she knows I will likely disown her if she gets pregnant. Not that I'm against sex, I'm not and I know she has gone through some very "slutty" times in her brief "career", as did I. However I am 100% planned, yes PLANNED parenthood. As I tell her, she doesn't yet have a job she likes, or friends that she respects; she doesn't know if she wants to stay put in this town or leave to somewhere very different. It would be entirely unfair to both her and any child for her to have one at this time. Carelessness is what I'm against. Children should be valuable enough to be considered BEFORE the choice to be pregnant/parent, not valuable by default because of carelessness.

Therefore if my daughter gets pregnant before she is happy with herself and her life, I would let it be her decision, but if she didn't have an abortion, our relationship end completely. Then of course, I have to evaluate the "party line" vs reality. Reality, I would disown her till she had no longer an option to abortion, that way I couldn't harp on her everyday. Then I would listen to see if she fully grasped the responsibility she was taking on and truly wanted it. If so, I'd un-disown her; if I didn't think so, I'd have to walk away, I can't see parents that don't take the raising of their children totally seriously.

BTW my son has the same threat over his head for getting a girl pregnant before she primarily, and he secondarily know themselves and are generally happy with their lives.

correction= *if he gets a girl pregnant. (for getting sounds like he has gotten a girl pregnant and he hasn't)

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Love is a four letter word.

Ustwo

Just how adult do your children have to be before you would not disown her for not getting an abortion?

Your post is perhaps the most disturbing one I've read and my gut reaction is no mother could be so controlling and disturbing.

I do love how it would be unfair to the child.....more unfair than abortion?

Please.

TFP has a lot of dysfunctional family people, and dysfunctional people in general. Any of you wish you were aborted to be fair to you?

Give me a break on this sophistry. Its nothing to do with fairness to the child, its convenience to the mother, or in this case apparently the grandmother.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Infinite_Loser

QFT (And, yes, that's a factually correct statement supported by mountains upon mountains of physical evidence).

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Nole of 4UrMe

It has nothing to do with age. It has to do with (in case you missed it) Planned parenthood. It has to do with her having a child because she wants to not because she thinks it will enhance a bad life or worse yet a bad relationship. It has to do with her knowing herself and giving herself time to enjoy her adult life, because once that child is born, she won't have her life if she is being a proper parent till the child is well past 10 years old. It has to do with truly valuing child/children and the parenting that goes with it.

As for the fairness of abortion, not a day goes by that I don't wish my parents had aborted me as my grandmother thought they should have. Nothing to do with me as I wasn't me yet. It had to do with my parents still wanting so much more for themselves that my grandmother feared the kids would be neglected as "mom" was only having kids to try to keep "dad," and she was also determined that she would not be a "mother" because she (my mother) believed that "mothers" were stupid. She never intended on caring for us in the least. And "dad" hated children, never wanted any, only stayed because back then that's what was done. He beat us regularly in the same styles as the recently found little girl's body, Riddley, in Texas. Since my brother is a junkie, well, you make the call. I believe and have experienced things worse than death and so has he.

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Love is a four letter word.

JumpinJesus

The laws of nature don't take into consideration social mores.

Speaking of responsibility before sex is a worthless argument because we're biologically wired to have sex once we reach sexual maturity.

Sure, we can rationalize away some of that biology, but it still remains that we seek sex instinctively. We all love to prosthelytize in manners that suggest we're far more mature than that, but to say we were mature enough when we were 18, 19, or 20 to turn down sex because there was the slightest chance of pregnancy is ludicrous. If you were or are that mature, congratulations, now use your vast wisdom for good instead of finger-wagging.

And now for moderator-mode:

You all know the rules and you all love to be right, but if you can't take your hostility and personal attacks out of your posts, then we will remove your ability to post in this thread.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

World's King

How can you attack someone on what their personal response would be to something.



"I really like this cheeseburger."

"No you don't motherfucker. You like ham sandwiches."

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Miss Mango

Im rather torn on the issue. But one thing that I know without a doubt, is that I would want my daughter to finish school, baby or not. Graduating from high school is non-negotiable. It is far too important for her well being and chance at life for me to kick her out and make it impossible for her to go to school.

Obviously, I would support her decision to do what she thinks is best. If she wants to keep the baby, I would help her with daycare until she graduates. Besides, itd be a grandbaby, Id want to watch the baby a lot anyway.

There would be terms set up though, that they have to move out a year after she completes high school. This would give her time to find an apartment/house to rent, get a job, and secure financial aid to help pay for daycare. I would also try to show her the options of going to a community college part time so that she can still get an associates degree or be working towards it. Young mothers, especially single, have their way to school completely paid by the Pell Grant.

Overall, it would be very tough, but I wouldnt just drop my daughter and let her flounder around, especially not with a baby involved.

Willravel

To be fair, you do love ham sawwiches. And stuffed olives.

Nole of 4UrMe

Just to clarify, in no way have I ever expected or asked my daughter (or son) not to have sex. My daughter chose to wait till after she was 18 and from the time she was 15 till 18, I was worrying her regualarly because she was seemingly growing up chill to the point of frigid. Fortunately her libido kicked in at 18 (she was menstruating since 9 so it was a long wait for her) anyway, then she went sex crazy. I think that was/is just grand.

I am against her getting pregnant, not against her having sex. Educated women can generally utilize some method to avoid pregnancy. Generally these methods work.

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Love is a four letter word.

The_Jazz

WK - this may be the funniest and most insightful thing you've ever posted on this board. And that's really saying something.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Sue

I have no children, but hypothetically, she'd either have to give it up for adoption or, depending on how far along she was, there'd be an appointment made at the local clinic. Unless there's some extreme measure like this is her high school sweetheart and they're going to be together forever, it's not happening in my household (hypothetically).

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Teg yw edrych tuag adref.

Plan9

Wow, zombie unexpected/unnecessary fetus thread.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Punk.of.Ages

Man, I miss UsTwo...

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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

LordEden

Yeah I'm not sure about the need for a resurrection here, but whatever. This seems like one of those threads that needed to stay dead.

I have an opinion, but I'll write it later. Or not at all looking that the old posts in this thread.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Toaster126

Oddly enough, this was the only thing I was offended by in this entire abortion of a thread.

(I see what I did there. )

You seem like a smart girl, so I'm assuming you were just being a little too strong with your wording... you don't truly think someone must be a woman to have a response to this situation, or gay to have an opinion about gay rights, or blah blah blah, right?

Man, I feel dirty quoting something from years ago.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)