Hektore

Greetings TFPers, I recently have begun serious deliberations with myself on nailing down details of the when/where/how of I intend to propose to my current girlfriend, we've been together a bit over two years, have lived together for the past 4-5 months and I think we're in a place where it not only makes sense, but is something I really, really want to do. One small problem: I haven't discussed any of this with her dad yet (asked his permission). Now I realize this might not be a big thing in most of the country anymore, but we come from two very small towns in pensyl-tuckey and it most certainly is a very big deal around here. I have several thoughts on the dilemma and I'm not entirely sure which one to go with, and you all are the largest and most reasonable(mostly ) group of people I know.

Firstly, I think that perhaps I should just ask him for his permission, in the stereotypical, admittedly patriarchal, way most of us would be familiar with. It is outdated, but it's tradition and 'just the way it's done'. This raises a couple concerns that I have with this line of thought, first and foremost, it is outdated. He doesn't own her, and has no right to give or deny permission. That's all good in theory, but in practice it doesn't matter, if it's something they expect, and I don't ask...well lets just say I've heard about other engagements broken off when the father finds out after the bride to be. So, in this (and many other things) there is a clear difference between theory and practice. Not only that, I don't think it's really an acceptable thing to do anymore (asking permission) as it goes against my sense of right and wrong, and what does that say about me, being a person caving on something I believe in just to make her dad happy? Of course, then I also have to ask 'what does it say about me not willing to cave on a belief of mine, that really isn't that important to to me in order to make her happy?'

This is not to say the only two options are asking or not asking for literal permission, but perhaps something like his blessing, or approval, would be an alternative. It would not be a deal breaker, but could be somewhat of a pleasing middle ground and it would let me know where I stand and his thoughts on the matter. Not only that, he and my gf are very, very close and it would be extremely important to her that he be happy for us. I don't know that it would be a deal breaker for her either. As close as they are, he knows as well as I do, she is going to do what she thinks is best no matter what anyone else thinks.

So, TFP, what are your thoughts?

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fresnelly

Asking "permission" is obviously making you uncomfortable and for good reason.

Does he know your living together? Is that a big deal?

Presuming you guys get along already and approval is a given, I don't see why an informal conversation about your intentions should be too hard. State your intentions as fact and he'll probably congratulate you, right? Then he gets to tell her mother and you can all have a toast while he regales you with his own proposal and wedding stories.

Unless he's a controlling jerk and you're a layabout nogoodnick, you're working yourself into a lather over nothing.

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ratbastid

Don't ask for his permission. Ask for his blessing.

jewels

Still patriarchal. Romantic. Earns points with her family.

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Ustwo

Throw your sense of right and wrong about it out the window.

Daddy's little girl is daddy's little girl, and having good relations with your father in law is a nice thing to have.

I never asked permission per say but at some get together I took him aside and told him I got her an engagement ring. We didn't have a lot of time to talk and he just smiled his assent, said ok and that was all that was needed (we had been dating a LONG time by that point).

Now its not so much asking permission as showing you value his relationship with his daughter and value his opinion. Worry about him saying no only if he in fact says no. Maybe he has some concerns you can talk about, maybe he just wants to give you advice, maybe he will say 'about damn time' but why risk starting off a marriage on the wrong foot with your father in law?

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TotalMILF

Aww, asking for her parents' blessing is so romantic! It shows your GF that you really care about her family (earns points with her) and it shows her parents that you value them and care about the family as a whole (major points with the future in-laws). I agree with you that the "permission" thing is outdated, but asking for their blessing is wonderful:-)

Good luck! Let us know how it pans out

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abaya

Ktspktsp wanted to do this (done rather often in his country), but in the end it just didn't happen, and that turned out okay. My parents weren't surprised at all because I had been talking to them about the whole thing (from the point of view of it being MY and KTSPKTSP's decision, only--not theirs, or his parents) for a while.

I don't think there's any harm in NOT doing it (I think it's actually better to at least ask BOTH the parents, not just the dad... because that is by definition patriarchal), obviously... but there tend to be benefits all around, when you do ask. I think that it helps lay a good foundation with your future in-laws.

Then again, one of my now defunct friends went to the father of his wife-to-be, and the dad said NO, you are not good enough for my daughter. The guy went ahead and married her anyway, since that was what they wanted... but did not invite her entire nuclear family to the wedding. You can imagine how much fun THAT one was.

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Willravel

Nah, you're over thinking it. If you valued what her father thought of you, you wouldn't do such depraved things with his innocent daughter.

This is about appeasing the romantic wants of your partner. She believes that this is romantic, therefore you do it. If he says no, oh well. You've made the romantic attempt, and he's just damaged his relationship with his daughter. He has every reason to say yes.

genuinegirly

Take him fishing, or to an auto show... something that interests both of you and will give you several hours to spend time together.

Say, "I'm planning on asking your daughter to marry me. How do you feel about that?"

You are not asking permission. You are asking an opinion.

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Scorpion23

My wife and I both come from a small town in the south, and I asked both of her parents for permission. I suppose I could've asked for their blessing instead, but the wording didn't bother me and I knew that they'd say yes (we'd been dating for almost 8 years).

I didn't look at it as a requirement from the "right way to do things" perspective. It's a chance to talk with her parents about how they feel. It also lets them know that you value their opinion, even if you feel that the answer won't matter in the end. Some parents may also feel that they are expected to pay for all or a majority of the wedding expenses. Asking allows them to feel like they're still in control of the their money, even though they'll probably say yes.

As far as worrying about getting told no, don't think about it because it probably won't happen. If it does, simply ask why not. This is another reason to do it in front of both parents, the mother will almost always say yes immediately unless she hates you, helping to persuade the father

In the end, you really don't have anything to lose by asking. Be it either permission or blessing. If he says no when you ask then he would've said no when he found out later. And if he says yes, then you have taken the romantic route for your girlfriend and the "traditional" route for your future inlaws.

Ustwo

No, its about valuing their relationship even if I was fucking her brains out daily.

She didn't even know I was going to ask, I wanted her parents to know though.

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Willravel

Did she find out after?

Ustwo

She knows now, but I've never really stressed it. She knew her parents knew ahead of time but it wasn't from a romantic standpoint or done for romantic reasons.

I think its fair that you talk to the father prior, at the very least its a courtesy.

Maybe it was easy for me since I happen to like her parents and I knew she was saying yes too, I'm a hoopy frood after all.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Willravel

Did she think it romantic?
That's true. When I think "Ustwo", I think "hoopy frood".

Ustwo

Don't think so, doesn't matter really, wasn't my motivation.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Willravel

I guess that DOES make you a hoopy frood.

Plan9

But include both parents.

Uh, just make sure you're reasonably certain of the answer, ya know, or wandering around the "event" for the next four hours will be really awkward!

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Crack

What if he says no? I wouldn't take the risk. Elope I say, elope!

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Willravel

Wrestle him for her!

Plan9

"Well, Mr. Crankyfather, I shall meet you on the field of honor at dawn!"

*cocks flintlock pistol*

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

abaya

Ktspktsp and I also figured that if he was going to be asking my parents, then I should be asking his parents, so that it wasn't some daughter-ownership (or romantic-expectation) thing... but rather, honoring each other's parents. But then we had to get married in a hurry, so we just dropped the whole thing.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
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allaboutmusic

I think it's a lovely tradition and intend to ask my future bride's father for her hand. After all, I'm taking his place as the man in her life, and it's a nice gesture to let him know that I take the responsibility as seriously as he does.

abaya

Apparently I'm spoiling for an argument at the moment, so I must ask:

"The man in her life?" I ask this sincerely... what does that mean? I have a dad, and I have a husband. They are both part of my life, as are many other important men who are parts of my life. My husband did not "take" my dad's place, by any means... that would be freaking weird. Nor do I need either of them in order to have a "life," at least not in the 21st century. So I could use some clarification... my apologies if my tone is overly critical here, but the point is important.

Also, would you be comfortable with your future bride asking your mother for your hand, because she'd be replacing your mom as the "woman in your life?" That is the only way that I can see this as not being a patriarchal/oppressive tradition, I guess...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

allaboutmusic

Keep in mind I said taking over, not replacing... perhaps I should clarify that I only mean as far as being responsible of taking care of the partner, and you're right - it does work both ways (which I think has quite a beautiful symmetry).

I think it would be great for my bride to ask my mother. It might be considered unusual, but symbolically she IS taking over the role that mothers have of caring for their sons. I think throughout the courtship, a mother is generally more interested in whether the girl is right for her son, and a father is generally more interested in whether the guy is right for his daughter. True?

(this is NOT at all to say that fathers don't take care of their sons, or mothers their daughters)

Charlatan

I wouldn't have dreamed of asking her parents permission. I can't think of a better way to infantilize my future wife.

To have to ask permission suggests, to me, that she is either a possession that can be given or taken away, a child with no opinion of her own or both.

I honestly couldn't give a toss what her parents, my parents or anyone else's parents thought. I cared what she thought. Period.

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Willravel

This is a perfect way of articulating my feelings.

abaya

Yeah, but this sounds like the bride and groom have never cared for themselves?... I mean, unless you're getting married when you're still a child... I would assume that the groom has learned to take care of himself (independent of mother AND father, and any other caretakers) by the time he's ready to get married, and that the woman has also learned to take care of herself, just as equally, by the time she's ready to get married. Mommy and Daddy are long out of the picture by that point, financially, emotionally, and otherwise, I would hope.

So yes, two people willingly assent to help each other through life, but not in the maternal/paternal sense. It's a totally different form of "caring" for someone, if you ask me. I did not, in any way, shape, or form, symbolically or otherwise, step into the "role" of caring for my husband, as his mother cared for him as a child... and vice versa. The whole idea is rather creepy to me, and suggests an unhealthy feeling of dependence and need to be "mommied" or "daddied."

Also, what Charlatan said. Our children do not belong to us, and neither do our spouses.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

allaboutmusic

I don't dispute any of what you said. I think it honestly depends on the relationships each of you have with your parents. I still ask my parents for advice when it comes to making big life-decisions, not because I am incapable of making them myself, but because I appreciate their wisdom and experience, and they may well have some good advice for me. I also think there is no right or wrong in this.

Would it be inappropriate for me to suggest that a bit part of it for me is chivalry? I like to open doors for women, to help them with their coats etc, not because they're incapable of it but because it's a chivalrous thing to do and I enjoy it. If a woman dislikes that kind of thing, there's a good chance I would either not be marrying her, or would have picked up on it by the time I think about whether asking her father is appropriate.

Martian

Clearly a man who always knows where his towel is.

I also say ask for his blessing. Perhaps the distinction between asking his blessing and asking his permission is a fine one, but I think it's important enough to be made. You're going to do what makes the two of you happy. Asking her parents, then, is showing respect for local custom and for her family (who will soon become your family, after all).

It's not really a question of ownership. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that the bride-to-be (or groom-to-be, for that matter) is a possession to be bartered for. However, it is a tradition. Marriage itself is a tradition. Showing respect for how it's done in your area only makes sense. In other words, why do it by halves?

I wouldn't worry about her father saying no. Odds are he won't and if he does you'll probably go and do it anyway, I reckon. People generally do what makes them happy. It's up to him whether or not he wants to facilitate that or stand in the way of it.

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fresnelly

Okay Hektore, the advice is in. You'd better tell us how it goes or else you won't have our permission to marry! Don't you dare leave us hanging.

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Ustwo

Didn't you live with your wife, unmarried for years?

Under those circumstances its a moot point.

For me, my wife was still living at home, and had just graduated from college.

I have a great relationship with her parents, it would have been rude to not say anything in my book. The infantilization would only take place if I said 'Sorry honey but your father said no, so I'll be on my way.'

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Ilow

This seem like the same kind of tradition as asking if there are any "reasons why these two should no be married" or whatever that phrase is. I don't think either are really intended to be anything more than rhetorical questions. If most people nowadays want to marry someone, their parents consent or lack thereof won't keep them from marrying, the lack will just make things more uncomfortable.

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Ilow

practically I would prefer asking for blessing rather than permission, but really would prefer elopement for real practicality...

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Jenny_Lyte

Personally, I think that's a wonderful thing to do. Not so much permission as someone pointed out, but for the blessing. It shows that you are not afraid of her parents and that you want them along for this crazy ride as well.

Honestly, I would just melt if my boyfriend would ask my parents for their blessing. It's old fashioned and romantic in my opinion.

fatmanforprez

This is almost entirely up to the relationship between yourself, your spouse to be (hopefully), your parents, and their parents (let’s be honest there are others than can and will squeeze in here like friends and siblings depending on situation).

The diplomatic answer is that every couple needs to find the right answer for themselves.

Some think it's a barbaric tradition, some think it's a sign of respect, hell I'm sure there are even some who are living the accused barbaric tradition. it's not important on the global scale of things.

What does matter is that you look at the situation at hand and do what you think is right. It sounds like the OP knows damn well this is expected of him (regardless of pleasantries and word choice) and I say good for him.

While I am not married and have never proposed I think that this fits into the general “learning that people have to fit together” process. My last ex would have been completely distraught had I even considered speaking to her father (perhaps for her the mother is the better party anyhow). It really would have severed and cauterized us. My current girlfriend would be similarly distraught if I was to propose to her without appealing to familial and friendly permission (her parents are deceased [and I won’t get the familial permission, but I have to have tried]). It isn’t about people being property or not in either case, the first girl is worried about proving her adulthood and independence, and the second is much more mature (coincidence, not implication) and views it as a sign of respect. Needless to say I am a much better match to the current girl (hence the use of the word current and the harsh treatment of my ex).

And damn you for the use of the phrase hoopy frood, now I will forever read the book as being
“Hey you sass that hoopy Ustwo, theres a frood who really knows where his tonic is”
I swear I typed towel but tonic came out, I hope you like gin and tonic or is it jynnon t’ahnnix?

Charlatan

If I remember correctly we'd been dating for about three years and had only lived together for about four months when I asked her to marry me (and I am not sure if her parents knew that she'd moved in with me at that point).

I too have an excellent relationship with my wife's parents (perhaps even better than my own parents at times). I still wouldn't ask permission. To me, the symbolism of the act is enough to infantilize her. Your scenario would infantilize me and commodify her.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Ah I have you confused with someone else from here then.

Still I don't see it as infantizling in the least.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Sharon

I think it's a very sweet thing to do, especially if father and daughter are close. Maybe I'm old-fashioned that way - I still think the father should be the leader of the family and if he is still the leader of her family then it makes sense to ask!

How about saying you'd like to marry his daughter, asking for his blessing and recognising that a family's support is appreciated to make the union a long and happy one?

little_tippler

I think you are all complicating things far too much...

If this was me, and my dad was still around, I wouldn't expect any of this. I wouldn't mind if he decided to do this though - but only if it was as a romantic gesture, not a binding one. If I was treated as a possession, I doubt we'd be together.

Since in your part of the world it's expected, I think you can do it if you feel she will take it as something romantic only. If you think she may be offended by it, don't do it. I don't really think it matters if you have a few qualms over it. It's so irrelevant, if she would like you to do it and her dad feels respected by your doing it, then why not? It's not always about you.You know in your heart she's not yours to own and as long as she knows that too, it's just keeping her dad happy and in the loop, and making her feel all gushy inside lol

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

abaya

Yep, you are old-fashioned. But I still like you.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran