Immunizations Cases For/Against - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 12-08-2007, 06:39 PM

The whole mercury in fish scare is fall out from the Minamata bay environmental poisoning, and most guide lines are based on 'better safe than sorry' not real information on what a 'safe' level is.

Too much mercury is bad for you, very bad, as is too much fluoride, too much selenium, to much iron, too much vitamin C, well you get the idea.

Biology doesn't work on a straight line though, it works on a curve, and its something thats hard for a lot of people to grasp. There is a dose that can be 100% safe, and then it reaches a point where its a poison. For a lot of substances there is a beneficial dose followed by a toxic dose, such as fluoride or vit C.

Since there is no known benefit to mercury in the body, its best to avoid it all together, but that doesn't mean it therefore must have caused a problem. In the US, it has been removed from all vaccinations for deadly, infectious diseases for children, there is absolutely no reason to use fears of a possible link to autism to avoid protecting your child from very well known and very dangerous diseases.

Another mistake is that people assume since it has been removed as a preservative then it MUST have been causing a problem. This of course is silly, and is most likely market/litigation driven, as parents will feel better knowing its not in there, lawyers can't try to claim every developmental neurological defect was due to a shot to uneducated juries, and since we know its not beneficial we might as well find different way anyways.

robot_parade · 12-08-2007, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

1) Do children get vaccines with Thiomersal?
Current international vaccines that include Thiomersal:
diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (DTP), diphtheria and tetanus toxoids (DT), tetanus toxoid (TT), hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib), and influenza.
Thiomersal is still used commonly outside of the US in the vaccinations listed above. In the US, most of Thiomersal (not all) was removed 1999, but what does that mean? That means everyone on TFP (born before December of 1989) who was immunized is at risk, and that many outside of the US is still being injected with mercury. As TFP is an international forum, it hardly seems prudent to only discuss the US.

Ok, granted, I assumed the US for this discussion. However, if there's such a strong link between between vaccines with thimerosal and autism, then why are they still using it in Europe? Are there scientists just that much dumber than ours? Or is it that there probably isn't really any risk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

2) Can mercury cause autism?
Mercury introduced into humans is very damaging to many systems, especially the nervous system. It is especially dangerous to a fetus or young child (4-5x more sensitive than adults). Mercury is known and proven to kill neurons in the visual cortex, cerebellum, and dorsal root ganglia. Pathophysiology describes autism's mechanism as being an alteration of brain development after conception in that abnormalities in purkinjo cells in the cerebellum are found. (wiki)

So mercury damages the brain. Autism is a disorder of the brain. That isn't causation, or even correlation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

3) The "correlation" evidence:
US
- Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely young infants -- in one case, within hours of birth -- the estimated number of cases of autism had increased fifteenfold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166 children.
- Early Downward Trends in Neurodevelopmental Disorders Following Removal of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines (.pdf)
According to this now famous study by the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, childhood Autism and other childhood neurological disorders dropped off 35% since Thiomersal was basically removed from children's vaccines
UK
- Since 1970, British health authorities have recommended vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines. Even so, nearly 15 percent of British children were not vaccinated between 1970 and 1980; only one autistic child has been found in this unvaccinated group, in contrast with an epidemic of autism among vaccinated children.

I'm hardly suggesting that all autism is caused by mercury, and I'm not suggesting that if you get a shot you're getting autism, but the facts above should be hard to ignore.

Ustwo responded to this wonderfully, but I'd add:

http://www.autism-watch.org/ for general autism/quackery related information (which mentions your Dr. Geier:

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/geier.shtml
)

and:

http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPr...mu/autism.html

Sorry Will, but you're on the side of quacks on this one.

Willravel · 12-08-2007, 08:54 PM

Huh, seems I was wrong. It's been known to happen. Vaccinations for all!

Thanks to everyone for the heads up.

kurty[B] · 12-10-2007, 10:19 AM

I haven't had time to read the whole debate this morning, but looks like this topic went the direction I intended (arguments from both sides). Just wanted to update that after presenting the CDC information and other studies I found I was able to convince mom to take care of the minimum required shots for school and child care without using the "My beliefs do not allow getting shots" excuse to get out of them.

She is still going to break them up so he only gets 2-3 shots at a time instead of the 4-5 he normally would. I don't necessarily agree with that, I figure just get them done and over with, but apparently she enjoys the fun of visiting the doctor more often. I think she just likes finding out how much he's grown everytime on their official scales.

robot_parade · 12-10-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurty[B]

I haven't had time to read the whole debate this morning, but looks like this topic went the direction I intended (arguments from both sides). Just wanted to update that after presenting the CDC information and other studies I found I was able to convince mom to take care of the minimum required shots for school and child care without using the "My beliefs do not allow getting shots" excuse to get out of them.

Good!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurty[B]

She is still going to break them up so he only gets 2-3 shots at a time instead of the 4-5 he normally would. I don't necessarily agree with that, I figure just get them done and over with, but apparently she enjoys the fun of visiting the doctor more often. I think she just likes finding out how much he's grown everytime on their official scales.

Well, I can see arguments from both sides on this one. Keep in mind that shots are *not* 100% "safe", and there can be bad reactions. Some people are for spreading them out in exactly that way in hopes of reducing reactions like fever/etc.

12-08-2007, 06:39 PM	#41 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The whole mercury in fish scare is fall out from the Minamata bay environmental poisoning, and most guide lines are based on 'better safe than sorry' not real information on what a 'safe' level is. Too much mercury is bad for you, very bad, as is too much fluoride, too much selenium, to much iron, too much vitamin C, well you get the idea. Biology doesn't work on a straight line though, it works on a curve, and its something thats hard for a lot of people to grasp. There is a dose that can be 100% safe, and then it reaches a point where its a poison. For a lot of substances there is a beneficial dose followed by a toxic dose, such as fluoride or vit C. Since there is no known benefit to mercury in the body, its best to avoid it all together, but that doesn't mean it therefore must have caused a problem. In the US, it has been removed from all vaccinations for deadly, infectious diseases for children, there is absolutely no reason to use fears of a possible link to autism to avoid protecting your child from very well known and very dangerous diseases. Another mistake is that people assume since it has been removed as a preservative then it MUST have been causing a problem. This of course is silly, and is most likely market/litigation driven, as parents will feel better knowing its not in there, lawyers can't try to claim every developmental neurological defect was due to a shot to uneducated juries, and since we know its not beneficial we might as well find different way anyways. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-10-2007, 10:19 AM	#44 (permalink)
kurty[B] Sauce Puppet	I haven't had time to read the whole debate this morning, but looks like this topic went the direction I intended (arguments from both sides). Just wanted to update that after presenting the CDC information and other studies I found I was able to convince mom to take care of the minimum required shots for school and child care without using the "My beliefs do not allow getting shots" excuse to get out of them. She is still going to break them up so he only gets 2-3 shots at a time instead of the 4-5 he normally would. I don't necessarily agree with that, I figure just get them done and over with, but apparently she enjoys the fun of visiting the doctor more often. I think she just likes finding out how much he's grown everytime on their official scales. __________________ In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

12-08-2007, 08:54 PM	#43 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Huh, seems I was wrong. It's been known to happen. Vaccinations for all! Thanks to everyone for the heads up.