Strange Famous

In your opinion, is it really morally different to sleep with someone that you KNOW has a boyfriend; than to sleep with someone when you have a girlfriend? (or reverse the genders, or whatever)

I am doing the first, and yet seem to feel of myself that I would never do the second because of my "moral standards" - but then I guess the truth is you can never say what you'll do till you have the chance to do it.

Is it as bad, does it make me as much of a cheat? I personally do feel it is different, but I do think that it isnt ok and I do think that I shouldnt be doing it, if I was a moral person.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

JumpinJesus

Yeah, to me it's just as bad. You're interfering in someone else's relationship. Has her boyfriend ever wronged you? Because, you might be fucking his girlfriend, but you're screwing him over.

That's not right.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Strange Famous

I dont know the kid. I dont specifically wish any harm on him, but I dont care enough to stop I guess.

I certainly dont think its right, and I want her to make up her mind one way or another, but I havent stood aside, and I have knowingly upped the ante to this point. If she ends up not wanting to see me again Im not gonna try and talk about shit out of spite to damage what she has with him if thats what she chooses...

In regards to how she talks, he treats her like shit, and the relationship is already on the way out anyway... but you know I am not TOTALLY niave (sic)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Toaster126

The question you should be asking is why you want a girl who is willing to cheat on her boyfriend. I mean, let's pretend your best case scenario happens... you end up with a chick who cheated on the last person she was with. Doesn't sound like a spectacular prize to me. Maybe you are worth more than that.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

spectre

Don't take this the wrong way Strange, but it sounds like you only posted this thread to get people to justify what you're doing. You want us to pat you on the back and saying, "it's okay, you're not causing any harm" just so you can feel better about it. The truth is, unless he knows in advance and is okay with it, you're trying to damage a relationship for your own gain, and it sounds like you know you're not comfortable with it, but want it bad enough that you need to find a way to be okay with it.

And if the relationship is about to end anyway, why not just wait it out?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

pig

i take a slightly different view than most here other than toaster. i don't think you have any moral imperative to protect her relationship, unless the guy is a friend of yours. at least not a direct one. however, i would question why i wanted to be with her if she was cheating on her boyfriend, and if those were the personality traits i valued. if it's just for the sex - then sure, go ahead. it usually ends up being a bigger pain in the ass than its worth, but that's your call. if you want a relationship with this girl..well good luck. i think it's usually doomed before it starts.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

777

Alternitively, you can go out with her, and keep your moral standerds. Ask her to dump her boyfriend if she´d like to continue seeing you.

If she can´t do that, then move on. If she can dump the poor guy, the she´s no longer cheating. Unfortuanely, there´s still the inicent victum (her BF), but at least he´ll move on from this relationship, and find a gal that won´t cheat on him.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Strange Famous

I dont know, I dont expect anyone to justify it. In my own moral vision it is wrong, but not as wrong as some things. I own up to being selfish. I dont know that I necessarily want to be in a serious relationship with the person in any event.

I know it is wrong, I am just asking is it AS wrong as being the one with the partner. I am not breaking a commitment I have made to anyone. I may be causing him harm, he may or may not deserve it.

I dont know for sure that the relationship will end, she might really not be into him, but she is with him yet, so perhaps she is just telling me what I want to hear, or perhaps we are just using each other in these ways.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

You better hope he's not the type to come over with a gun. If you can't be a good person, at least protect yourself by having all the facts.

Strange Famous

people here dont really have guns.

im not that worried about that side of things, but I suppose anything is possible.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ngdawg

The question is, why is she not being forthcoming with the other guy? If your conscience is clear, have fun, but know what you're getting into-all good things come to an end. If, on the other hand, you're having some trepidation, back off a bit. Find out what you want. Someone's gonna get hurt-the trick is to make it seem like it's for the best and try to make sure it's not you. Harsh? Maybe....
As to the actual question posed: Doesn't matter what the dynamics of the relationship is, whether the guy or girl is the 'cheater'. You place a double standard by saying it's ok that she's cheating but that you wouldn't do it. Are you saying you prefer women with a lesser moral code than your own?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Blackthorn

Cheating is as cheating does Sir... there is bad karma about to run over bad dogma somewhere out there.

__________________
What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

Taltos

C'mon. You're already having doubts about the relationship and you're not even with the girl yet. That's not good. It's certainly not perfect, but maybe perfect isn't what you're looking for. I can understand that.

What I cannot understand -- what does not seem moral by any means -- is you trying to get with this girl by threatening her. And it is a pretty nasty threat -- exposing your activities together for the sole purpose of ruining her relationship if she chooses that relationship over you. That's just messed up. You have to seriously think about this, because it's going to have repercussions in you, in how you treat people. Is this really the kind of person you want to be?

I get that you're frustrated... that you feel like a need to lash out or something if you can't have the girl. There isn't a man alive who hasn't felt that at some point. But who you are, and who you want to be, is more important that anything -- more important than who you happen to be with or what you happen to have. If you don't get that now, you will later. Unless you cross the line.

You can't threaten someone into loving you. You can't even threaten someone into liking you. You can't do that and still pretend to have any morals. You could be ruining this girl's life and possibilities for happiness, and for what? To get into a relationship that was poisoned before it even began?

__________________
Though we are not now
That strength that in old days
Moved Earth and Heaven;
That which we are, we are:
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and flesh
But strong in will
To seek, to strive, to find
And not to yield.
-Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Jinn

Absolutely! They're totally different.

When two people enter into an "agreement" like an exclusive relationship, only those two parties are responsible for maintaining that agreement. She agreed to be monogamous with him, not you.

I've said it a million times here and I'll probably say it a million times more - if my girlfriend cheats on me with another man, I have nothing against the other man. After all, he didn't agree to be with me, she did. If SHE breaks the rules, then it is HER fault, not his.

If you cheat on your girlfriend, then yes, you're responsible. Because, once again, you're the one in the agreement. Not the third party.

Think of it this way; did you meet this guy, hang out with him for a long time and then agree with him that you wouldn't sleep with this girl? Or did she meet the guy, hang out with him for a long time, and then agree not to sleep with other people? The person breaking the agreement is obvious.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Midnight

I was engaged to my daughters father.
because we had already "slipped up" and had my daughter, I wouldn't let him touch me again until we were married. he agreed to this. Of course, what i didn't know at the time was he had no problem with it because he was meeting up every couple days to "get some" with a friend of mine.
did i deserve to be cheated on? I don't think so - although some do.
who was i FURIOUS with when I found out? - HIM - not her.
she was a complete slut and its something I would expect from her. She has/had complete disregard for the status of other peoples relationships. I knew this and was her friend anyway. HE was the one that was in a committed relationship and in the midst of planning a large wedding that HE wanted ( I wanted to elope)
I will report however, that I broke up with him, and he ended up marrying her, and Karma pays them back in spades as one then the other involves themselves in extramarital affairs.

Its not that i think you are doing nothing wrong. Just felt the need to say that you should do as you like, but it WILL come back around to you in the end.

JumpinJesus

Interesting point of view. I disagree with it, but it's definitely a different way of looking at it that I hadn't considered.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

snowy

Yeah, this is how I see it...the negativity and bad karma you attract by engaging in this kind of morally questionable is not worth it.

My two cents.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

mixedmedia

I wouldn't say it makes you as much of a cheat, but I wouldn't count on it ending well. In which case, why does it matter?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

shesus

Cheating is cheating. It's something that both people are doing and in the process someone or more is going to get hurt. I don't think either person involved is doing the right thing. If you didn't know she was involved with someone else, I wouldn't think you a bad person. She was not truthful to you or the other man. However, if you go into it knowing what you are doing then you are abetting her in her cheating ways.

I don't care how close to the end the relationship she says it is. Fact is, she is still with him and you have to ask yourself why?

Point: Cheating is cheating no matter which side you are on. You can't have it both ways, it's either wrong or right. It's up to you to make the moral code or the justifications to approve it for you.

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

Lady Sage

If she would cheat on him, what would stop her from cheating on you?
How do you know that you are the only one she would cheat with?

If you do, for the love of the gods use a condom!

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Infinite_Loser

That's a total cop out. If her relationship with him was truly as bad as she says it is, then she would have ended it instead of keeping it going while sleeping with you.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

analog

You're not cheating. You're not the one in the relationship. In all fairness, you are not to blame or culpable in sharing blame with a cheater. It's not your fault that she's cheating.

However....

That doesn't mean that what you're doing doesn't make you a dick, or possibly even an asshole. That's not a dig, it's just an honest appraisal of the situation.

As far as morals go, that's a personal decision. Consider how you'll feel about it when it's all over.

World's King

I've been on every side of cheating possible. And I couldn't give a damn about any of it.


If you want pussy. Get it. Fuck the other guy.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Cynthetiq

exactly.

and think of the long term discussions of how you'll be reminded of this if your relationship does stay on for years to come. People ask how you met, you'll ALWAYS know in the back of your mind that your earliest days together you were the dick or the asshole, take your pick.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Bill O'Rights

Nope...I don't see that you're doing anything that could be construed as cheating. You're just a guy that's looking out for his dick. This girl is getting something from you that she's not getting from her boyfriend, and vice versa. She's also getting something from him that she's not getting from you, or else she'd be with you. Of course, that's relative too.

Look, no way I'm in a position to moralize. In my younger days, I had more than a few of young Air Force wives under my belt. Literally. I was just in the right place, at the right time. Thing is...all I ever really did to "seduce" them was to sit and listen. After a couple hours of commiseration, they couldn't get their panties off fast enough.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Strange Famous

I dont really know where your comment comes from. I havent threatened anybody, and I specifically and explicitly said I had told tried to make her choose who she wanted to be with but if she choose to be with the other guy I wouldnt say or do anything to undermine their relationship. I am saying to her only that if we are going to become more involved I want her to be involved with me only and not have another boyfriend. I cannot understand through what logic you twist this to be that I am threatening to ruin her life for my own happiness.

So, I dont know what youre talking about.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

I don't see any threats, but still shame on you. You know what you're doing is wrong.

Strange Famous

Yes, broadly I think it is wrong - but in truth I dont feel ashamed in my heart.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

JumpinJesus

I guess that brings the question then: why don't you feel ashamed? If you can answer that, then you'll have the answer you seem to be looking for here.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Nimetic

I guess that although it is equivalent, logically - there is an emotional difference.

In the latter case, you are cheating on somebody that you know personally. I'm fairly sure that our wiring is such that this is a 'simpler' case. ie humans tend to work together (when they do) with people they know - and consider strangers to be potential enemies.

So yeah... I think it is different.

But whether either case is right or wrong depends on your philosophy, game plan for life, and or religion.

analog

I think this is where morality comes into play.

If you do something anyway, knowing that it's wrong, and feel bad afterwards, that's one thing.

If you do something anyway, knowing that it's wrong, and don't feel ashamed afterwards, that means you have no moral compass concerning this issue.

willynilly

While never explicitly confirmed, my dad cheated on my mom with the person who became his second wife. My parents divorced, and my dad went on to marry my stepmother within a year or two. He was a teacher, she was his principal. She is about 6 or 7 years older than my dad was. Shit happens. Did he ever cheat on my stepmother? I don't think he did. Sometimes people fall out of love while they are still in a relationship. They meet someone else, decide things are better, and then move on. But how many people just leave a relationship that they are falling out of? Oftentimes they meet someone new who spurs the end, and a new beginning. Plus, I think strangefamous is a fairly young guy, and so probably the girl he is seeing. Women are fickle. Especially young girls. They make a mistake or two, they get hurt, they grow up a little. I am sure many people here have, but they won't tell the truth. If strangefamous get's hurt, then he will learn what is important to him, for good or ill.

Strange Famous

Well... I feel like it is wrong, but it doesnt effect me emotionally because I am not doing anything wrong to anyone I care about I guess. I dont know her boyfriend, Ive never met the guy, so I dont have any feelings about him... I dont have any malice towards him - but at the same time I dont feel sorry for his situation either. Its true that I am doing something that may harm him, but his girlfriend is sleeping with me of her own free will, I havent made her do it, if it wasnt with me maybe it would be with someone else - because she isnt happy with him.

I still think there is a difference between me sleeping with someone who has a boyfriend, and someone cheating on their partner... because I am not breaking the promise I have made (explicit or implicit) to be faithful to anyone, I am not breaking my word. I think the comment someone (ndawg?) made is a good one - why do I aascribe to myself a higher moral standard than I expect from the girl I am dating on an issue like this... Ive thought about that, and I dont know... but its a good point.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Nimetic

A similar argument could be made though re stealing.

ie
- it wasn't from somebody that I know or have a commitment to.
- if I didn't take it, somebody else probably would (it wasn't in a secure spot)

You should avoid meeting the girls BF. Since you don't know his position on the morals of this, or any other plan of action.

pig

yes, but an object can't give consent. a girl can.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

The_Jazz

Strange Famous, I think you're answering your own question here. It's only wrong if you make it wrong. Some of us could be in your situation with no problem, others not. Personally, I'm one of the former, but my morals are for running my life, not yours. You're not betraying anyone, but you are hanging out with someone is. It's up to you whether or not that's ok.

One of my best friends cheated on his longterm girlfriend with at least 3 different women, including the one he married a few years ago. They have two great kids, and I feel pretty certain he's never going to stray again. I knew most of what was going on at the time and was the cover story for several of his seruptitious meetings with the other women on numerous occassions, but that never affected our friendship.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Nimetic

Mmm. Ok. Good point.

But I don't think that this is about the actions of the girl. The debate is in relation to the actions of the guy. Likewise of course, if the situation was reversed.

Strange Famous

well... I think Im out of it now.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas