Prince

Take it out on someone else.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

scout

Sucks to have to be a man huh?
There are far worse things in life than filling out the proper paperwork for the Selective Service. The odds of anyone ever being drafted are nil to none but we all gotta play the game. Good luck.

Prince

Sucks to miss the point completely huh?

There are always worse things in life than any bureaucratic bullcrap we're slammed with. That high horse must be a nice one to ride.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

spectre

The money comes from the government, if you want it, you have to play by their rules. It's just the way things work.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Cynthetiq

Not to mention that the system was designed as such because people avoided registering for the selective service upon turning 18.

This became a legitimate way to "catch" those that did not bother to and wanted goverment subsidies and services.

You want something for nothing even if it gives you "breathing room" and not really because you need it. Well, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Ever.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Bill O'Rights

I never registered for the Selective Service.

Basically, because I was active duty from the time that I was 17 until after the age that I was too old to register. There was never a need.

When I applied for financial assitance, years later, I was declined for never having registered with the Selective Service. Catch-22, anyone?

Now, to this very day, every time that I register for a class, I have to present a document, from the VA, that basically states that I was exempt from the Selective Service by nature of of having actually served during the required age period. Oddly, no one was set up for that particular contingency. To me, it seemed pretty simple. But given the amount of chaos and confussion that it caused...I guess not.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

LoganSnake

About 90% of the applications I have filled out since I turned 18 have required my SSS number, so I'm surprised that you've only now ran into this problem, unless you just recently turned 18. The only reason I did it is because it said on the form that if I don't sign up, there is a 5 year prison term and/or up to $250,000 fine. Scary.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Toaster126

OBEY.

(This post is now long enough for TFP)

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

kurty[B]

It's obnoxious, but compared to other countries where military service is required upon turning "legal age" for men it's not so bad. Of course, many of those countries are not into the "business of war".

JumpinJesus

Old slogan:

America: Land of the Free


New, improved slogan:

America: Compared to other countries, we're not that bad so complaining about stuff is kind of pointless, just go along with it and be glad you're not in a gulag.




Selective Service is a method of ensuring that if the draft were to be suddenly reinstated, our government would have a ready and waiting pool of draftees. And like a few have already mentioned, since most people won't register, they tie it to money. Most people will register in order to make sure they get federal funds.

What does that say about us?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

ngdawg

The the Federal government, with all its insanity, still knows how to tie a slipknot around one's nuts?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ShaniFaye

Thats interesting because the rules of Selective Serivce say: Some non-citizens are required to register. Others are not. Noncitizens who are not required to register with Selective Service include men who are in the U.S. on student or visitor visas, and men who are part of a diplomatic or trade mission and their families. Almost all other male noncitizens are required to register, including illegal aliens, legal permanent residents, and refugees. The general rule is that if a male noncitizen takes up residency in the U.S. before his 26th birthday, he must register with Selective Service.

So Im assuming you were here before you turned 26? What kind of visa are you here on?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

seretogis

Indeed..

Also, if you don't register by your 26th birthday you can be thrown in prison for 5 years and be fined for $250,000. Apparently our lives belongs to the government, not to us.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

LoganSnake

As stated in my previous post, this is the only reason I signed up. I'm not about to give my life for any country, even my homeland. Patriotism does not run in my veins, so I find this SSS requirement highly inconvenient.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

kurty[B]

Considering the laws the government has been passing for the past few years I am pretty sure that's exactly how the government feels about it's people. "They owe us, we protect them".

I'll pump gas naked for $400. I'll roll the dice on a draft for college tuition, or not to be put in jail. I'm a sellout, just like the majority of the U.S. population.

snowy

Yep.

Bureaucracy sucks, but if you're going to ask the government for money, you had better be prepared to deal with all kinds of red tape.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

roachboy

the linkage between student loan money and selective service registration (lining yourself up to be cannonfodder in defense of an order that does not particularly care about your politics) is yet another gift from the reagan administration.

it's obvious why: as the american empire degenerates while run by people who cannot face that obvious fact, it becomes increasingly likely that there will be deadly neocolonial adventures that will require bodies. such a colonial adventure could happen in colombia in defense of those vital banana flows we rely on so much. one could happen anywhere and for every one there is a need for bodies. someone else's body of course.

so thanks to the reagan administration, if you want student loan money to attend university--where you might learn the actual history of american use of its military and derive the basis for principled objections to the adventures of commerce in the military sphere---you have to sign up to participate in potentia in just those adventures.

if you interpret this at a remove, the message is: in this land of "freedom" that is the american empire, it does not really matter what you say, what you know, what you think--you are still just a body which is wholly expendible in the interest of profits flows. it is particularly important that this bit of Instruction as to the nasty underpinning of this place where we all wander about talking in glowing terms about how lovely lovely and free we are be handed down as you try to go to university, dont you think?

well but it is a law and because it is a law you must submit and this is how american exercise intellectual freedom through a virtuosity in rationalizing submission. this is what we are. so at this point, if you want the loans, you have to sign up to be magically transformed into cannonfodder at the appropriate moment. because this is real, it is rational. a fine instance of intellectual freedom american style, that.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

SecretMethod70

roachboy ftw.

Since I didn't have the option of not signing up for selective service (I needed the loans), I've since made sure to build up evidence of my conscientious objector status, should I ever need it.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

telekinetic

I registered. It never bothered me. I had confidence enough in my skills and abilities that any aptitude tests they gave me would not come back 'bullet sponge'...plus the pleasant catch 22 that if you're actually USING those loans (which I was from the month I turned 17 and started college) you get draft deferment.

__________________
twisted no more

Prince

On a K1 visa. I entered the country 1 month before I turned 26.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

ShaniFaye

oh well crap that doesnt exempt you....Im sorry no one ever told you about it in time to get your loan

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

analog

You want at least $4,000 from the government on a low-interest, payback-in-small-payments-over-time loan?

Nevermind that the likelihood of a draft is about as high as my chances of having sex with Elisha Cuthbert, you're asking for money NOW, with a promise to pay back later, over a long period of time.

Signing up for selective service is their loan requirement.

P.S.- here in Florida, selective service registration is tied in with the DMV. Once you hit 18 and go to renew your license or ID, they remind you that signing up is compulsory and that they can do it for you automatically.

Charlatan

You could live here where National Service is mandatory for every able-bodied male.

Who needs a draft when everyone is already enlisted.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ziadel

I reigstered for the draft VERY shortly after I turned 18. Like a week after. Frankly, I dont see what the big deal is. It's only been beneficial, like when I went for that cushy extremely well paid DOD job, a lot of other welders in my area went for those jobs too, and were struck down. Because they did'nt register for the draft. These are the rules, if you wanna live in this country you have to play by those rules. It's really not anything tyranical.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

ubertuber

I didn't realize there weren't people who signed up... I guess that's a function of where I was when I was 18. It didn't even cross my mind.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

ShaniFaye

Kinda hard to sign up when you're from another country and part of the immigration process doesnt inform you of the necessity

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Prince

That was precisely the point I was trying to make. I'm not opposed at all to signing up for the Selective Service if they require it, although I don't think I am an ideal candidate for drafting so why they'd want me to is beyond me. I don't oppose having to do this, I am just pissed that this was not an issue that was ever brought up by the immigration agency when I came over. They could easily have made signing up for the SS an actual requirement for permanent resident status - or at least, going through the process of determining whether I need to sign up or am exempt.

I don't really appreciate some of the replies that go along the line of "if you want to live here, blah blah blah...". What you need to understand, is that whereas you may have taken it for granted since you turned 18 that you had to deal with this one way or another, I was never made aware of it. So, anyone not registering for SS between 18 and 25 is subject to jail time or quarter of a million dollar fine...that's nice, but they never told me anything about it. And getting through the immigration process requires no small amount of research, take my word for it, and yet this subject never surfaced anywhere.

As a sidenote, I find it curious that some people equate questioning the bureaucracy as somehow un-American. That because I live here now, I am to just stfu and play by the rules, without giving any thought to their validity or asking questions? Similar to the way you are considered unpatriotic if you do not mindlessly support the war. "Don't ask questions, don't question how anything is done". I'm sorry it's taking me time as a European to get accustomed to this line of thinking, I am used to free speech.

It is equally unnecessary to bring up the subject of nations where the military drafts every male as they turn 18, seeing as I am from one of those countries. I was exempt from the draft originally because I was attending something similar to junior college, for a degree which was required there in order to ever attend a university. Later, as they automatically tried to draft me again, I was exempt due to being consistently on Valium and various antidepressants. They didn't want to put a gun in the hand of someone who needed sedatives just to go to a grocery store, I guess.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

spectre

Okay, I just read your post and felt compelled to go back and reread every single post in this thread. There isn't a single post waving the flag and saying, "if you want to live here, you damned well better do this." All everyone is saying is, if you want the money, you have to play by the rules of the people giving it to you. You don't don't go into a bank and say "screw you, I won't pay you back on your schedule!" They tell you the rules involved with taking their money and everyone who wants that money has to play by those rules. If you don't want to enroll in the SS, then don't, but you know that's what's required to get the loan, and you don't have much of a choice but to go along with it. You can complain, protest, and kick and scream all you want, but if you're able to make a difference, it won't be for quite a while, and by then you could've enlisted, gotten your loan, and been done with school. I'm not standing up or defending that way of doing things, but I'm just laying it out for you in the honest way of how things work. Bureaucracy sucks, and anything involving that bureaucracy is going to suck, it's just the way of things. It's like the application fee you paid to get into the college. Sure, you didn't have to pay it, but that just means you won't be getting in.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

ShaniFaye

I dont really see him complaining about anything other than not being told of this requirement when he immigrated here. I think he quite clearly stated IF he'd been made aware of it, he would have done it.

Based on the replies, I myself was wondering if people got the point that he's not from here and wasnt aware there was any such thing that he was required to do, its not like he was deliberately trying to get out of it.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ratman

Hmmmmm... So a K1 visa is a fiance visa granted for the purpose of travel to the US for marriage. After the marriage you have to apply for a green card to gain permanent resident status. (At least according to Wikipedia). This is a temporary visa requiring that you get married, or get out.

I fail to see how any immigration employee when faced with an applicant that is not of traditional college age, applying for a non-education based visa, indeed a temporary visa that will require modification at some point in the future, would have any reason to assume that the applicant had aspirations of a college education, or have any responsibility to counsel the applicant of requirements to attain benefits of any kind related to registration with the selective service.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Gov is not obligated to inform you of any rights you may or may not have, or the steps you may have to take to attain those rights. The US gov does not provide this service to American citizens born on American soil. If you don't pay attention in your high school civics class, too bad, so sad. If you want some benefit, it is your responsibility to find the hoops to jump through, and the most efficient way to jump through them. Do I wish it was different? Absolutely! Do I feel for someone that has to go through the same shit as everyone else, citizen or not? Absolutely not.

I am an ex-pat American living in Asia. When I came here, they stamped my passport, which carried a three-year visa, and said enjoy your stay. They knew I would be here for three years and yet there were no offerings of classes or seminars on how to negotiate the medical system, the legal system, the requirements for anything whatsoever. Nobody gives one tiny damn about what I may or may not need or intend to do while I stay here. If I have an need, I better figure out who to ask about it, and it usually isn't anyone from the government.

I would challenge anyone that has lived in a foreign country on a non-permanent visa to provide an example of how the government of that country assumed what your needs would be and held your hand through the process at the time of entering the country.

In this case particularly, I don't see how the US gov would have any reason to know, or care about the compulsory service status of the applicant in his home country. No reason to assume that the applicant would have any need to apply for services requiring registration with the selective service. I would bet that they didn't give him any advice whatsoever of the process and time constraints, if any, of his visa status (a fiance visa- at some point you have to get married or get out).

Enjoy your stay in the US, but be ready to take responsibility for knowing everything you have to know about being there, cause no one is gonna call you to check if everything is OK.

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

ShaniFaye

umm...I think where you're off here is that whether or not you go to college, apply for a loan or whatever...you're required to register. If you're just some joe cool that sits at home living with his parents with them footing all his bills until he's 25.....you still have to register.

Knowing how much crap you have to go thru to get a K1 visa (it is NOT easy to get one...I've seen people wait 4 years to get one granted) its apalling to me that the information wasnt included in the process.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Prince

You're not bringing bad news, just repeating what's already been stated in this thread.

It is irrelevant whether or not anyone immigrating into the States is "of traditional college age". You are legally bound to either register or seek exemption with the selective service regardless. Failure to do so can result in 5 years in jail or 250k dollar fine. Are you following me yet? We're not talking about something you can choose to do if you want a college loan. This is something you have to do whether you go to college or not. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your "rights".

As for the rest of your off-topic tirade... The fact that I managed through the K1 visa process and got here and got into college as well should be enough indication that I am capable of researching things before I do them. However, this requires that the research material and the organizations, agencies or institutions involved provide all the necessary information somewhere, or that at the very least there is some mention of stuff like this in online guides, FAQs or message boards... Surprise: there wasn't. Probably because people applying for K1 visas and talking about them and giving advice on them in online forums aren't talking about college loan applications, so no one has a clue. In fact, I am willing to bet there is a considerable number of immigrants here that are below 25 and risking jail time because no one bothered to tell them they have the legal obligation to register. It is not relevant whether the jail time is actually enforced; it is enough that exists and the government sees no reason to make people aware of it, but reserve the right to punish for not doing it. That's bullshit.

If there is something that I am legally obligated to do, and not doing so can mean jail time or a huge fine, then yes, I do expect someone part of the immigration process to make me aware of it, so I am not walking around unaware and susceptible to charges for dodging something no one bothered to tell me I had to do.

Or are you suggesting that I should be calling various governmental agencies, ie Department of Justice etc, asking if they "have anything I need to sign or sign up for so I don't risk ending up in jail?"

__________________
Who is John Galt?

Ratman

There are a lot of things in life that are tough. I'm not commenting on the ease or difficulty of applying for, or gaining, any visa status. I'm saying that if you asked any ten INS agents about the need for a 25-year-old K-1 visa applicant about the requirement for their registration with selective service, you would justly get a glassy-eyed stare and a "What the fuck are you talking about?" response in at least nine cases. Obviously it is not a requirement to get the visa, or the OP would have had to register prior to being granted the visa. If it is something that the OP needs for another purpose completely and totally unrelated to the status of his visa, it is on the OP to take care the situation, not the responsibility of the INS agent that interviewed him four years ago. You are appalled that this information wasn't included in the OP's INS consultations four years ago? I think it would be impossible to include every niggling, asinine requirement of the gov to get by in the US in these consultations. If INS agents were so well informed, they would have other career opportunities in immigration law.

I'll illustrate with a personal experience. I came here five years ago. I was barred by my contract with the company I worked for from driving a car. Nobody from the equivalent of the INS asked me if I had any intention of driving while I was here. Why should they? It was not a requirement of my visa, regardless of the terms of my contract. I renewed my US license one year later. Now that I don't work for that company, I would like to own and drive a car. I now find out that if you have not lived in your home country for three months since the issue of your CURRENT license, you cannot get a license here. The reasons for this rule are beyond me, I have been a licensed driver for more than 20 years. I have contacted the consulate about this, and it is a serious problem for a lot of US residents here. The bottom line is that NOBODY GIVES A FUCK that I wasn't told about this when I entered the country. Nobody assumed that I would drive here, nobody cared about my driver license status when I came here. AND WHY SHOULD THEY? It was not a requirement for my visa.

Like the OP's situation, is it inconvenient for me? Yes, it is. Is there a solution? Yes, there is. Does it fit my time schedule? No, it doesn't. You know what? Feces occurs. Deal with it. Fix the problem, don't fix the blame. My favorite Monty Python quote: "It doesn't matter WHY they're dressed as a tiger, have they got my leg?"

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

amonkie

As someone who was been through applying for federal loans, I find it hard to allow you to continue to play the innocent.

I even went so far as to locate the information where the U.S informs you that registering for the SS is required.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/pu...fsa/index.html

Any application for federal funding requires the FAFSA - on page 9 of their instruction handbook, under "am I eligible for Federal funding?" it clearly states:

Like anything else in life - the fine print is there. The way I look at it - I am having to pay the money back at some point, i want to know damn sure what I am getting myself into before I sign any dotted line. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

ShaniFaye

playing devils advocate here....what if he was over 25 when he applied for the loan? According to the Selective Service rules...he had to register because he got here before his 26th birthday....IF he applied for a student loan at the age of 27, where on the list that you posted does it tell him that he should have registered when he got to the states, otherwise he wasnt eligible?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Prince

Oh, yeah. That's precisely what I am doing.

1) Like you said, you've applied for federal loans before, so you know of the requirement. I have applied, or tried to, for them now as well, so now I also am aware. Your point being what exactly, aside from trying to be an ass?

2) I never saw that brochure nor that site. The college's online student account system included a direct link to the FAFSA application, which is what I was told to fill up and file.

If I had Google'd for "financial aid selective service", perhaps that brochure would have shown up. Gee, why didn't I do that? Oh right, I'd never even heard the phrase "selective service". And if I had read that, I would have assumed that I do not have to register, since I'm 30 years old. Since that is what it says. And yet, it doesn't matter what age you are. You have to register or seek exemption anyway.

Please, if you have nothing to contribute, don't bother replying. I am not whining about having to do this. I'd have gladly done it the day I landed in the country if that had been possible.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

amonkie

Have you gone to the Selective Service's website to see what your options are since you did not register?

http://www.sss.gov/FSmen.htm

It appears the U.S. Government actually has a soul. According to this they can't hold it against you if you can show you did not willfully avoid registering. Might be worth taking your energy into this thread and instead checking this out.

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

Ratman

Sorry, ShaniFaye, but that holds no water for the OP's original complaint- that nobody told him at the time of his immigration FOUR YEARS AGO that if he ever wanted to apply for a federally sponsored student loan he had to register for the selective service because at the time he was 25 years old. He is 30 now, still not married after four years on a K-1 visa, and griping because his adopted country of four years won't give him a pass on a requirement for cheap money for education. After four years in America, if you haven't figured out that the gov't really doesn't care about your convenience, you need an education that no college can provide.

EDIT: The OP has replied, and I sympathize that it was never his intention to avoid registration, and that he is willing to do it at this time. It is simply inconvenient to jump these hoops at this time, when it would have been so much easier if someone had told him at the time of immigration that it was a requirement for some services that he may require at any unanticipated time in the future. I will say again that if it was not a requirement for his visa, he has no right to complain about the fact that no one anticipated his need at the time he entered the country. It is not the fault of the FAFSA people that he was not aware of the requirement, that he didn't know what selective service was, or anything else. It is incumbent on the applicant to educate himself on the requirements of the application.

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

ShaniFaye

Sorry but I agree 100% with Prince, since this is a requirement no matter if you want a loan or not, since its a requirement that can land you in jail or pay more money a lot of people make in many years time, it should have been part of the information they gave him in the very extended time it takes to get a K1. With all the money and headstands you have to do for that kind of visa, the least they could do is try to keep you out of jail and using tax payer resources to take care of your ass while you're here.

I guess Im the only one that gets it has nothing to do with the loan itself....

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ratman

This is totally untrue. If it was a requirement for his visa, he would not have been granted the visa without compliance. It is not about the loan, it is about taking personal responsibility for doing what you have to do, when you have to do it, regardless of how inconvenient it may be.

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO