Sultana

A thread in the sexuality forum has prodded me to post about something I've been thinking about lately.

Why do people say that love lasts forever?

Why is marriage supposed to be life-long?

Is it the church/religious policies from the days of yore, building life-long clauses into legal ceremonies? I know that divorce and abandonment were condemned (depending on interpretation of various texts), but how does the church benefit from discouraging divorces?

Is it an overly-built up societial expectation because it's so much easier for pop songs to rhyme those words?

I can't really think of any other types of chosen relationships or partnerships where people seriously hope for/expect a life-long committment.

Why do people buy into the idea that *Llllooooovvvveeeee*, True Love (tm), is a forever thing?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Jetée

I'm a romantic by nature, (Aquarius, if that correlates at all ) so I fall in love right fast and loyally so, until I find something better to occupy my new romantic delusions.

I am a lost cause.

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As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

lurkette

My theory is that human medicine evolved while human institutions did not. The average life span used to be just enough to raise your offspring to self-sufficiency before you died. It was of benefit to society, and to the family, to have the parenting relationship last till the kids were on their own, which happened to coincide with your whole life.

As life expectancy increased, "till death do you part" got to be a lot longer. Our institutions didn't change in the same way our biological and environmental conditions did. Keep in mind that until the last couple of centuries, "love" had nothing to do with "marriage." It was not a romantic relationship, it was an economic relationship. "Marriage" was expected to last till death do you part. Nobody said anything about love. Once marriage became a romantic institution as well, you're supposed to not just stay married till you die, but stay in love till you die. Pretty unrealistic. I think you can stay in love forever, but given how most people change over their lives, it seems unlikely just from a statistical point of view that this would be possible for most people.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

MexicanOnABike

It doesn't have to last forever but if you find someone you REALLY love then why wouldn't you want it to last forever?! I hope i'll love my gf forever.

And marriage is forever because traditionally, it meant you started a family with the other person. I think it would suck to be in the situation of divorce after having a couple of kids. wouldn't you prefer to know it would last forever and be happy?

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- Movie Reviews - Ratings-

mixedmedia

I think it's because that's the way you feel when you are in love. You feel like it will last forever. And you want it to last forever. And a part of us, contrary to all available evidence, also often believes it will.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

abaya

Heh, I just replied to that other thread in Sexuality, commenting that it was a threadjack... so I'm glad you started this one, Sultana.

What I said there applies here as well, so forgive the repetition:

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

because it makes for good books, songs, and movies??? It stirs up emotional hangups, desires, and insecurities.

i believe it's just for today.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

spectre

It's about security. People want to think that they'll have this great and happy feeling for as long as they live. They don't want hear, "I'll love you for the next two and a half years, then I'll go and find someone else." People want that security in knowing that something is definite and secure, they don't want to look forward only to see an unsure future.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Jinn

Because it's better to be optimistic than to be realistic?

I get myself into trouble by being honestly realistic, when I shouldn't saved the breath and gone with the optimistic (and simpler) answer.

I could say "Yes, I'll probably come over tonight. But I could be mugged, crash my car, break a bone and be forced into hospitalization, receive a phone call from a long lost friend, fall asleep and forget to come over, decide that I don't want to come over anymore, find a really good TV show that I want to watch, or decide that I want to go to bed early."

That's being a honest realist, explicitly noting the things that could be blockades to "The Plan." I know they're unlikely, but it would be unfair for me to just say "Yea, I'll come over," when I know that there are potentially things which could prevent it. I'd much prefer to say that my chances of coming over are 80/20 or 60/40, but people just don't like this.

People want to hear stupidly simplistic and optimistic assertions. Instead of "I love you today and I think there's a good possibility I will love you tomorrow, and assuming that you don't cheat on me, I don't cheat on you, our financial situation is okay, we get along amiably and we grow together, I see the possibility that our relationship could extend into the long term" they prefer to hear "I will love you forever."

I love details and exception cases, but most people don't. They prefer the general and the common cases.

It think it's just how most people work, unfortunately.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

hambone

In my view, marriage is lifelong cause that is what most vows say. You make a contract with your partner that day that you will stick it out and be together until nature rips you apart.

Some choose to alter this and do as abaya said, and change the wording. I think this is necessary if that is your stance. It is like a business partnership you are entering into here, and you normally have a ton of witnesses to the terms of this. So if you don't believe in forever, then make that clear from the get go.

Divorce is frowned upon due to this breach of contract (to me at least), and I think it should be.

---

On to love. Love is a silly word. It is the most loaded word I know. Will I always feel in love with my wife? Heck, no! She pisses me off sometimes, and for an extended period of time. So the 'in love' phase ebbs and flows, and I hope it always keeps coming back.

The kind of Love I entered my marriage to strive towards was the sort of love that looks to entwine my wife and I into a single functioning unit, each with unique personalities and goals and whatnot, but each pushing to bettering our life as a couple, a unit.

This is my view on it.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

Willravel

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's not a positive or negative reflection on anyone, it's just circumstance. Sure, Boys 2 Men would like you to think that all love lasts forever (and that it's hard to say goodbye to yesterday), but I'm pretty sure several of them have had divorces.

Sultana

But why do most vows say this?


Makes sense, but other breaches of contracts aren't viewed so...emotionally. I guess because this vow is made based on emotions?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

hambone

I would say tradition I suppose. You think an American wedding, you think of it being in a church. Churches are chock-full of tradition. I have no issues with legal partnerships or couplings for reasons other than the traditional reasons. My point is that this is a vow, a promise. If you will not be keeping it, or think its a silly thing in the first place, change the vow


Very true, and I think that is why the stipulations differ so drastically from standard contracts. You are playing with the heart here. This is a life altering contract. Not just a financial thing, or a physical thing, but the whole enchilada


Another note on the contract analogy. That is why we have pre-nups and all that junk. There you factor in the other assets of a person, so should they renege on their promise, you have a written document to state that they broke their end of the deal and what you are entitled to due to the prior arrangement.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

ngdawg

Realities change, but traditions don't.
Standard marriage vows are how many years old with little to no change because marriage 200 years ago wasn't what it is now. Women were second-class (love honor and obey) who, if they wanted to leave, had to forsake everything, including their children. They were 'marked' by their churches, their families and their communities if, heaven forbid, they found themselves out of love and miserable and decide to divorce.
Love songs aren't real, they're pining set to music, dreams of that 'perfect' love that we have bought into because the words are so nice.
Love changes as we change and sometimes people don't grow together and, like an old sweater, the relationship become unraveled, worn, full of holes or just doesn't fit any more.
My parents have been married for 57 years. So many times growing up, I'd hear my mother say she wanted a divorce because Dad had pissed her off again. Now, seeing how we are, she keeps telling me to 'stick it out' and it'll get better. But the difference is, my parents didn't stop loving each other, they just didn't always synchronize the love they felt. And I wonder, when she says that to me, is 50% of a couple still in love going to be enough to 'stick it out'?
/stops before she rambles....

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Plan9

Groucho:

Marriage is an institution... and who wants to be in one of those!?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Charlatan

Like abaya, when I was married I vowed to love my wife as much as could for as long as i could.

I think everyone here has suggested that love is not forever. people change over time. life is not static. why should be assume a relationship would be.

as for contracts... all contracts have a termination clause. I strongly believe marriages should too.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

liquidlight

I don't know about traditional basis, or religious impact, and perhaps it's just the hopeless romantic in me; but. . . love, real LOVE, means that you don't fall out of it, to REALLY love a person means giving them a part of yourself that you can't ever take back.

I'm not just spouting rhetoric either, I can't stand my ex in most ways and in fact there are things that make me hate her but on the other hand I also really did love her and I still do. That doesn't mean that we can be together because love by itself isn't enough, at least it isn't if the other person doesn't love you back the same way.

I guess what I really think is that too many people use the word "love" way too casually. It's a sad thing but I worry that a large part of the world doesn't even know what it really means to love another person.

__________________
Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

World's King

It doesn't have to.


Some times it does.



Most times it doesn't.


We live. We learn.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

ngdawg

I am of the strong opinion that marriage licenses should 'expire' and must be renewed. Hell, we do it with driving, hunting, resale, building inspections, health inspections, doctors....every 5 or 10 years, go in, answer a few simple questions, sign on the line, pay a fee....
A friend of mine said in response to a lament of mine regarding another's marriage: "Maybe he'll find out why divorce is so expensive-because it's fuckin WORTH it". License renewal would be a good thing-might make us think.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

777

Wishful thinking.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

abaya

Well, depends on the people, and the vows. I think most people just don't think about what they're really saying, or what "vows" mean. They just repeat after the priest or whatever, because "that's what people do."

We wrote our own vows because we wanted them to actually mean something, not just be something we regurgitated from an old book. Nothing against ritual, but we wanted to make it *our* ritual, even if that meant excluding the words "forever," "till death," etc.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

snowy

abaya, I think I'm going to borrow your wording when E. and I get married.

I don't believe that love lasts forever. People change, situations change. Both of my parents were divorced before marrying each other--they've been married for 25 years now. My father got divorced because the woman he married changed her mind about having children, and he really wanted a family--among other reasons, of course. I guess she turned into a hippie, and my dad is SO not a hippie. Additionally, throughout their 25-year-marriage (I HAVE been around for most of it), I've seen them go through some tough times, where things have been really shaky, but the key is that they kept coming back. And every time something about life changed, they went with it, and adjusted. They're utterly mutually whipped.

But they're lucky. I'd say every time you fall in love, you roll the dice. Every relationship has a life span--every relationship. If we're lucky, the life span matches ours.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

analog

I don't see why love can't last forever, or why we should assume it can't/won't, but I'm a hopeless romantic.

Little story: People my grandparents knew celebrated their 78th anniversary a few years ago. They'd been married since they were 17. About 5 months later, the wife died. Chalked up to natural causes, as she was healthy- they both were. The husband died the next day. The family had an autopsy done (though God knows why, it's not like it's a mystery when a 96 year old dies). Autopsy: Natural causes. Now, that's either incredible timing, or her death literally broke his heart. They had both died in their sleep.

78 years is a long time. That was love. It can last forever, and it sometimes does last forever. I'm more in the "it can, and it will" camp. I'm not assuming that love will falter, I'm going to keep believing that it goes on.

ShaniFaye

Im sorry, Im a firm believer of when you meet the one you're meant to be with it is forever. I have never in my life had a relationship with a man the way my relationship with Dave is. After almost 4 years nothing at all has diminished and yes....I will love him forever even if he dies...I will still love the memory of him.

I wont say that I would never love another if something were to happen to him. But being almost 40 years of and "thinking" I was in love once and knowing that I am now....the difference and the "forever" part is a lot more clear than it was when I was 21.

I want to be like both sets of my grandparents, they both had way over 50 years of marriage to the same person.

Yep, I believe in true love and in forever

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Martian

I think that when we're in love we want it to be a forever sort of thing. Also, it's hard to see past it. Those sorts of feelings are so strong, when they're there it's difficult to imagine not having them, nor does anyone particularly want to.

For some people, love is a forever thing. We all know couples who've been together for twenty, thirty years or more and are still going strong. Other couples just don't work like that and all we can do when it's not us is pick up the pieces and move on.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Shauk

It can
The difference between marriage and love, is that Marriage is the ultimate declaration of commitement and loyalty to your partner. You are saying to the world, "I love this person so much, that I am positive that I don't ever want to serve (and be serviced by) anyone other than you.


I'm not religious, I wouldn't commit in the name of religion, maybe out of social convention, but to me, it's all theater.... expensive theater.... but I expect a loyal and sincere partnership regardless of the "m word" from my relationships.

this is actually something that was a point of contention between my and my ex I was with for 5 years, who I still love.

It wasn't important to me, but what I failed to realize was how important it was to her, I trivialized her input into the marriage debate because I knew I loved her, that I'd be loyal to her, and that I would never leave her.

What I failed to realize cost me everything.

Charlatan

I have no problem with the concept of love lasting forever, per se. A deep part of me believes that I will be with my wife forever. That said, I would never make a vow to love her forever. It places me in a position to make a vow that I have no idea if I will be able to keep it.

Making a vow to love someone forever is pointless. Forever is a very long time.

Love *can* last forever but often doesn't. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Cynthetiq

I agree with you that you will always love. Love isn't like a faucet that you turn on and off. If you love someone unconditionally, you will love that person forever.

But the above quote is what I have with standing up in marriage and saying that... which is why abaya and I did no such thing. Because when you decide you want to not be married any longer, didn't you then lie to your closest friends and relations?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Shani, I completely respect what you're saying. All I meant to say was that no matter what, in the end, you or the other person will end up alone. Even if it's just from death, not divorce or breaking up. And I think that's a reality that must be dealt with, from the very get-go of the relationship. I think it makes the day-to-day even more important, because you really just never know when someone is going to die. Every day may be your last day with that person.

I say this because my mother lost my father, very suddenly (she got a phone call saying that he was dead) when they were still newlyweds and she was 8 months pregnant with me. That was 28 years ago. Like you, she "loves him forever," even though he died. She has worshipped his memory for literally as long as I can remember (since before I was born). But you know what... she's spent those 28 years living in the past. She has never really allowed another person in, even my stepdad (with whom she lived for 17 years). I don't know if she knows how to love someone else, because she never allowed her heart to heal in order to do so. She loved my father so much, that it stopped her from living her life to the fullest from that point on. And honestly, I don't think that's a great way to live. I don't think my father would have wanted her to live like that. She still counts their wedding anniversaries, you know? (And those 17 years with my stepdad became chopped liver, after they split up.) Some might see it as sweet... but I don't know. Life is too short... and forever is a long time to live in the past.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

fresnelly

I think we're confusing "Love" with "Happiness" in this discussion.

Obviously, Happiness and Compatibility can be temporary, but love is the emotional binding that sticks to your insides and is hard to break, even when it becomes toxic.

It's why we can't get some ex's out off our mind, and why divorces can be so spiteful and why we pine for the ones that got away.

You rip love out and you''re left with a wound. We want love to be forever so we aren't gutted by the loss.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

hambone

I agree with this. I think real true love is forever, but other's may not agree

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

tecoyah

Love in its many, many forms is ephemeral for the most part. There does seem to be a semi-permanent emotion that most of us feel at some point though. Most parents understand this one at one level or another, and it is undeniable. To me at least, the love of my children strengthens the underlying love I have for my wife...and in some way gives its permanence to what I already feel for her.
As for Happiness,I have to disagree with the premis. I do not dwell in perpetual happiness in my marriage, but the Love is there regardless of how pissed off I may be at some point. In fact I believe it is the underlying emotional tie that dulls the occasional anger, thereby allowing for excellent make up sex.

Sultana

Absolutely! It's interesting to imagine the potential repercussions on society as we know it.

At least it might help avoid the "Taking Each Other For Granted" which seems to happen in even the best couples.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

hambone

marriage licenses expiring would be a big mess in my opinion.

with your lives so enterwined, its not the same thing as a drivers license or something like that. If you get pissed off 2 days before renewal and don't want to sign up for another term, then what? As is well known, divorces are a lot of work.

It's just not that simple.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

ShaniFaye

Why the hell should I have to pay on a regular basis to prove to the government I still love my husband?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

hambone

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

hagatha

I would also like to add, that your definition of "true Love" seems to apply to romantic love. Which, to me, negates the power of other relationships that can shape and touch our lives in a meaningful way. I have friendships that have lasted for dozens of years, are deep and meaningful, if they ended I would be crushed.

Romantic love, for me, I wouldn't depend on it to last forever. This whole concept of "the ONe" is like one of my biggest pet peeves. There are many people who come in and out of our lives, some are there for years and years, some for months. Sometimes we get wrapped up in the hype and want to believe its the fairytale we were sold as kids.

As for marriage, its really hard work and I agree with the poster who said we aren't supposed to live this long. Back in the 1800's I don't think there were many 50th anniversary parties happening.

Just don't let this whole breakup make you bitter. That would be the real tragedy.

__________________
Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

Charlatan

This is precisely why I never wanted to sign a license or take a vow in front of a God in which I don't believe.

My marriage (until recently) involved neither of these things because I saw no reason to prove to the government of a supernatural being that I love my wife.

Rather, we made our vows in front of our friends and family. People who know us and love us. Vows said in their presence are, to me, far more important.

That said, I still wouldn't be so naive to think that my love would last forever. I might, but I take my vows seriously. I have seen people fall out of love, I have have fallen out of love. We cannot control the fact that over time we will change who we are. The 24-year-old that married my wife is a very different person from who I am now. We have been lucky that we have grown together and changed in a compatible way. I have seen the opposite time and again.

I would rather live in the present than burden my future self with an potentially impossible vow.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

little_tippler

I think it's amazing to be with someone for a really long time, to know them better than anyone else may ever know them, until they become almost a part of you. To me, having lots of different partners throughout life can't beat having only one and being so in tune with them that one look between you can say everything.

I think the reason this attracts us is because humans are fascinated with other humans and with communicating with one another effectively. We are notoriously conscious of our "singularity" and of how we are essentially alone, though we are constantly surrounded by others. I think most of us are strongly attracted to understanding or being understood by others. It's pretty hard getting just one person to truly know us, so we focus on having that one person to share with. Then sharing not only a deep psychological understanding of our minds with a deep physical understanding of one another's bodies, well what can be better than that?

I think love can last forever, though it's not easy to achieve and requires a lot of effort, patience and perseverance, When I speak of love, I'm not just talking about that exhilirating feeling we equate with the start of relationships, that lust-love thrill we get. I'm talking about something more deep rooted and enduring, based on mutual respect, understanding, and bonds that can never be entirely broken apart.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

katyg

I agree with little tippler, I see how well my mum and dad know one another, know how to look after one another, all the sexual partners in the world couldn't replace that for me. I am a total romantic x