mixedmedia

I don't believe in the existence of god and I've never spent a single solitary moment trying to prove it. Is that odd, too? Or am I just wrong?

I always love it when Christians refer to the horrible deaths of people who don't agree with them (ie, "the apocalypse") with such concern and compassion. It gives me so much faith in Christianity's higher ideals and love for mankind.

Not.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Jennifer

I'm sorry. I wasn't referring to your post. I was referring to what the people on Youtube called it. I meant that *they* were confrontational in their choice of wording, not you

Infinite_Loser

I'm sorry, but please explain why I should feel concern and compassion if you willingly choose to condemn yourself to an eternity of punishment and torment, especially when you had (Have) the opportunity to save yourself? Most religions have a similiar belief regarding the ultimate fate of non-believers, so I fail to understand the point you're trying to make.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

well, il, i don't want to speak for m2, but i'll throw out my opinion that i have no respect for an omniscient being who is such a bastard that he/she/it will put people in burning fire or whatnot for eternity if they don't obey/worship/love/accept/whatever. that's the sort of thing i tend to associate with psychopathic abusive parents/spouses, not a loving god who takes the higher road to achieve peace and unity and whatnot.

secondly, i think you misread m2's post, technically. if you wouldn't be speaking of hell / apocolypse with compassion, then you're not the christian she's addressing. you sound like the old testament type christian...floods, plagues, frogs and locusts and whatnot. back before god was a hippie, you know?

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

I suppose I might be out of the loop, but can you find me a video made by Christians solely to provoke a response from those of a different belief system? There's a difference between advocating one's belief system and purposely trying to elicit a negative response from a religious social group. Did you happen to see the founder of the "Atheist Challenge" on FOX news?

...And my subtle humor goes unnoticed...

>_<

You have full control over your actions. God has given everyone the free will to do as they please. Your future is determined as you would have it determined.

If I offer a starving man a piece of bread only to have him turn me down, then I can't be called cruel/heartless when he dies of hunger. Most Christians are compassionate enough to warn you of the dangers of Hell before you go there. If you refuse to listen and end up there anyway well... That's your problem

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

shakran

Sure. I can even do you one better. I can find you christian groups that go around in vans with giant "aborted" (actually stillborn and photoshopped, but they don't tell you that) fetuses plastered on the side, and posters of aborted fetuses that they carry in antiabortion rallies -- solely to provoke a reaction from anyone who isn't them

Glory's Sun

If we have free will.. then that would mean that god doesn't know the future. Or wait, he/she/it just didn't make us robots right? pfft. does god say thinks like.. "ok .. guccilvr is going to be born and he will end up famous one day.. but I'm going to tease him first and make him a homeless man" I mean he/she /it knows the future right? So he/she/it would know what the outcome of my life would be. Yet, we have free will, and according to you the outcome of my life is determined by me? Ok I choose to believe god doesn't exist, and there is no hell. This doesn't add up. How can a person have free will yet still be in control of an all-powerful being??

These are the type of statements I have a problem with. You (and lots of other christians, claim a knowledge of hell as if it's fact. Do you believe every book you read as fact??

Infinite_Loser

Ummm... What happened to the second sentence in the paragraph you quoted? I believe I said that "there's a difference between advocating one's belief system and purposely trying to elicit a negative response from a religious social group."

Come on, now. I know you know that I know you know what I'm talking about

You can believe God doesn't exist and Hell isn't real. God doesn't dictate who you're going to be and/or what you're going to do with your life. Our actions aren't pre-scripted before we're born. Each person shapes his or her life as they see fit. Each person is given the ability to act of his or her own accord. God still knows the ultimate outcome of your life.

It's one of the perks of being omnipotent.

Do I believe every book I read? Nope. Do I believe the Bible as it's written? Yup. That was a rather simple question to answer

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

hey il, i assume you're not a calvinist? i'm no biblical scholar, but i seem to recall some huge fight over predestination and omniscience and all that junk going on that caused some sort of schism in the church as some point.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

Yeah... I'm not a Calvinist. What was your first clue?

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

mixedmedia

It's the use of the term "the last laugh" that prompted my comment. I've seen this kind of sentiment from Christians many times before. It's not simply the lack of compassion for those whom they believe will suffer a brutal and terrible fate, but a certain amount of glee taken in it.

I've also seen many Christians try to backtrack out of such statements when they are called on it. No one wants to be seen deriving self-satisfaction from someone else's suffering. But there it is.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

This seems like a good time for some King Missile, don't y'all agree?

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

And not only that, to my mind, it denotes more fear of not being Christian than joy in being one.

Cool song, piggy

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Infinite_Loser

There's really nothing wrong with it, either. Everyone gets a certain amount of satisfaction from watching someone else suffer because they didn't care to heed their warnings. Say what you will, but such feelings aren't indicative of Christians, but rather people in general. It has little to do with a lack of compassion. People just like being right.

Plus, we'll finally get to laugh at all those people who called us illogical and definitively stated that God didn't exist (So it's a win-win situation)

People don't want to derive self-satisfaction from someone else's suffering? I call BS. God knows that if tomorrow scientific evidence was produced which refuted beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence of a supernatural deity that you'd take part in the "I-told-you-so!" fest likely to ensue.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

yep, carrot and the stick. when the carrot fails, then that stick gets pretty fucking big....time out? no, not time out. time in pain FOREVER!!! it'd be like punishing your kids by poking them with sticks...FOREVER!!! oh, didn't study for your test? lied about not sneaking out? VERY WELL! I'm going to tie you to a wall and poke at you with molten pincers...until well after you die. Take that!

as for the King Missile song...god that cracked me up ten years ago when I came across it. Its much better listened to, in my opinion.

Hey IL...maybe my understanding was wrong back when I was in the fold...but wouldn't that sort of attitude - the lack of compassion, the laughing at others' misfortunes, ignorance, pain, suffereing, etc - sort of put you firmly outside the group of the "saved?" I mean, wouldn't you be getting your ass fried with the rest of us, but with the rather trivial condolence of being the guy yelling "I told you so. He's a bad mother...."....while you're also roasting at the big Kenny Rogers in the sky for all eternity? Then again, as I said you seem to have that Old Testament vibe going on, so maybe not so much. Regardless, best of luck. I guess we'll all find out one day

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

...And, once again, my subtle humor goes unnoticed (I even included the thumbs-up emote, this time)...

Anywho, on a more serious note, I find it odd how you continue to assert that Christians show a lack of compassion towards those who choose to suffer in Hell. You're told beforehand what'll happen if you don't believe and are given ample opportunity to believe, so I don't understand where your argument is coming from. Anyway, how's this for compassion?

A postcard to Hell from Heaven: "Sorry you're not here!"

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

jorgelito

I think there's too much generalizing here. And as usual, it always devolves to anti-Christian sentiment. I am a Christian and do not fit a single one of the attitudes or behaviors described by the atheists in this thread. Nor do any of my friends and family.

Are atheists only against Christians or ALL religions outside their own? I don't mind criticism of my religion, in fact I think it healthy but this seems a bit lop-sided to me. Threads like this one need to be more balanced.

mixedmedia

I hate to break it to you, but many, many people are NOT like that. Of course, it makes it real easy to be a believer and not have to actually practice any sort of religious discipline or foster your own spiritual growth if you just want to bask in the glory of being "right." That's good enough for the lord, eh? I tend to think that Jesus Christ meant for his disciples to strive for more than they were when they came to him. I find it hard to believe that he would have much respect for the attitude of "eh, that's just what people are like, why bother?"

Atheists reject theism in all its forms. *edited for clarity*

How would you balance this thread?

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Infinite_Loser

...Subtlety doesn't go over well on the internet...

It's fairly easy to be a believer. All you need to do is accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, read the Bible and act as Jesus would act. I just thought that, you know, since people want to make generalizations of all Christians that I'd, you know, act the part

Anyway, you're trying to attribute a negative trait to a specific religion, which is just a cop out. All humans are born with a very distinct set of traits, some of which manifest themselves more so in one person than another. Regardless, people strive to be proven right. Otherwise, we wouldn't argue and debate.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

mixedmedia

For what purpose?

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

jorgelito,

i'm personally not really against christians. i don't understand why someone would be into the faith, but i'm not anti-Christian, so to speak. I can understand the comforting aspects of the faith, but I just can't find it to pass muster. Hey, you're a Christian? Fantastic! I'm glad it works for you.

As far as the "only Christian, or all faiths equally?" aspect - I'm pretty much against (what I perceive to be mostly) arbitrary worldviews that lead to a condemnation of large sects of a population, strictly based on what they say they "believe in." Maybe they're out fighting hunger, or poverty, increasing the scientific and technological ability of society to address massive issues, maybe they're raising a family as well they can, basically being good people...but they haven't said the magic words, gone through initiation ceremony...whatever. that i find minorly repugnant. that applies across the boards, religions, creeds, social groups...

what specifically are you referencing as anti-Christian? I'd argue that you could slide Islam or Judaism or Zen-Buddhism in there, and I'd have the same sentiment. I read somewhere last year that someone found a bone fragment that they think might have been THE BUDDHAH's little finger...a bunch of guys with shaved heads showed up to worship it. WORSHIP IT!!!. I thought..."that's some crazy shit right there."

As far as you personally are concerned...well, you might be the type of Christian I can understand. Who knows? I think a lot of sentiments expressed by the "atheists" in this thread are in response to the sentiments expressed by the theists / Christians in this thread. If you want balance...well, then bring the balance. No one is saying a cookie cutter mold fits everyone.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

jorgelito

Well, maybe adding or introducing new or other angles to the debate. It just seems a little flat.

My atheism question was because it seems to me that atheists only "pick on" Christians but leave all the other religions alone.

To try and stay with the OP, here's my opinion:

The video is what it is, it may be a bit harsh or "insulting" and hurtful but one kind of has to just deal with it. As to intent, no clue. I don't see any other atheist videos mocking or degrading other religions so it's not a stretch to think that Christianity is being singled out.

On a more philosophical level, I think it would be wise to do a little soul searching for Christians. One has to wonder, where these responses, biases, or bashing sentiments come from. A self-examination would be productive. Maybe Christians should think about themselves, their behavior and give an honest reckoning on how they may or may not adhere to Christian principles. could it be a backlash from previous history of persecution? Christian history does have a lot to answer for. Some Christians like to ask themselves: "WWJD?" But do they answer honestly?

Likewise, if we are to espouse Christian ideals, then wouldn't it be most effective to lead by example? I rarely see this these days. I actually think the problem is NOT atheism, but rather, Christianity (not the religion itself, but the state of it). I say this as a devout Christian, out of love and genuine concern, not hate.

So these videos etc, may be a reflection from a group that traditionally may have felt under represented or persecuted. It would be constructive to listen to what they have to say.

And for those that feel that these videos or sentiments are the only way, please be fair. Do not condemn the many by the actions of a few.

In other words, we should extend each other mutual courtesy.

Infinite_Loser

There was no real purpose. There's a distinct anti-Christian air surrounding TFP and, as people already have pre-conceived notions regarding Christians and Christianity, I just thought I'd conform to those thoughts and feelings.

Besides, people like being proved right

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

jorgelito

Thank you for your clarification. Yes, I realize one could substitute the various religions in the place of Christianity, but it is telling that it is NOT done.

I also understand and am against "arbitrary world views that condemn large segments of the population". I agree with you completely. My objection is that I do not agree that I fit into that mold although I am a Christian. I do not condemn.

These are fantastic topics to discuss and by rights we should really open up a few threads and have at it. Regardless of which side of the debate you are on, we all stand to learn something.

For me personally, I have found that talking to and with atheists, Muslims , Jews, Buddhists has made me a more tolerant person, a better Christian even. I think we all stand to gain something when we really think and listen and learn.

pig

IL - thank you! i feel so much better.

jorgelito,

for my part, you must understand that i'm something of a smart ass. so i play a bit, with serious commentary riding underneath.

in another thread started recently by filterton, i put forth my basic thoughts on Christianity, and you can apply them across the board to most other religions that i know of. i think that a lot of people focus on christianity because its the major religion of the united states and western europe, and that's where a lot of the commentary is occuring that we are exposed to. i honestly didn't watch the video in the op, so i can't say that i think its the only way. if people loosened up their religions a bit, i think a lot of headway could be gained in determining which parts are useful, and which parts have simply lost their efficacy. but that probably goes against the nature of being relgious to many...you're not supposed to really modify it so much as accept it...otherwise, you're creating another religion a la martin luther.

edit: just saw your post jorgelito: word.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

Glad I could be of service

Now, on a more serious note, you'll find that as Jorgelito pointed out, it seems as if most atheists don't have many qualms with religion in general so much as it has qualms with Christianity. The "Blasphemy Challenge" just reaffirms this opinion. Instead of denying the existence of the general idea of God, they specifically deny the existence of a Christian God.

People say that Christians do the same thing, but I've yet to find a video made by Christians for the sole purpose of mocking and inciting a response from a different religious group (If someone knows of one then, please, enlighten me). There's a difference between advocating your religious beliefs and mindlessly attacking another religious belief.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Glory's Sun

So, you really think that kind of attitude will fly in heaven?? That sure doesn't seem like a christ-like example.

So how exactly are you going to prove this?? It would be nice to prove all the higher power believers wrong, but yeah, it's a little hard to do that when you die.

Infinite_Loser

...It was a joke... Humor is hard to detect online...

Well, no one knows for certain what happens when you die (Though, I wonder what we would count "Near-death-experiences" as), though I like to believe there's a life after death. I wonder if I'd be allowed to be reincarnated as a ghost...

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

...view the entirety of existence through the lens of a book that was written at the same time people thought that the sun was moved by magic. You have to convince yourself that the universe isn't complicated and vast, but small and simple.

On the centillion (one million to the hundredth power)-to-one chance I'm wrong, I'd much rather spend eternity in hell than with a deity who chooses to set the rules at odds like this. The whole "You can learn how the universe works, but don't accept that knowledge because I gave you a book to believe in instead" is bullshit, and if any deity wants my love or respect, he, she or it should learn that respect and love are earned. That's where the heart of the blasphemy challenge lies for me.

I was dead for 45 seconds during my heart surgery. Spoiler: Nothing happened. I was not aware. It was as if someone simply shut me down.

mixedmedia

I would guess that if you are looking at atheists who live in regions where other religions are predominate, you would see more atheists singling out other religions. Here in the West, Christianity is predominate and is the predominate religious movement that is trying to affect law and society to more closely resemble its views. I think your observation is as simple as that. If Muslims or Buddhists held a lot of sway in the American town square, so to speak, I've no doubt you'd hear plenty of healthy opposition from American atheists. (albeit, Buddhists aren't theists...I'm not sure where that leaves them, lol).

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

jorgelito

Fair enough, but you could still make the argument that Jews and Muslims are heavily influential in our world. Their religion is a major influence to them and accordingly, due to their influence in our society, the rest of us too.

Infinite_Loser

You're wrong on both accounts.The Bible isn't a lens through which one views the universe, but rather a reference point which allows for a greater understanding of the universe and God's creation of it. You seem to forget that many scientists (Newton, Darwin, and Einstein to name a few) qualified their work based on their religious views. Therefore, I fail to see how one's understanding of religion narrows his/her view of the natural world... If anything, it expands it.

For one, the odds aren't nearly that high. That's simple an exaggerated number which most atheists tend to toss around as "Proof" of the fact that God doesn't exist. Anyway, here's a quote I happen to like taken from an interview done between Time Magazine, Richard Dawkins and Francis Collins:

---

TIME: Could the answer be God?

DAWKINS: There could be something incredibly grand and incomprehensible and beyond our present understanding.

COLLINS: That's God.

---

Dawkins then goes on to argue that the interpretation of "God" could be numerous different entities. It's not the first time I've seen/heard him backtrack on his assertion that God definitively doesn't exist.

Interview

*Refer to point number one*

*Insert fits of wild laughter here*

All right. Sorry. I just had to get that out. You're, in essence, cutting off your nose to spite your face. God doesn't need your respect nor love. He blesses you by honoring him. He doesn't "Miss out" if you choose to deny his existence. I can't help but think of the kid who causes harm to himself in order to try to hurt his parents. Ultimately, it's stupid as you only end up hurting yourself.

But hey... Whatever floats your boat

I suppose your experience (Or lack, thereof) is greater than someone else's experience so I'll just take your word for it that nothing happens.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

Religion would be a reference point if it could be expanded on. It cannot. The scientists you mentioned lived under religious persecution and in a world dominated by religion, so in order to make their views palatable, it was necessary to work within the framework that most people understood: religion. You might notice that approach is much less common today, where religion is less imposed than it was. Unfortunately, Darwin and Newton, along with many other scientists, had their findings destroyed, questioned as blasphemy, or tampered with by those afraid of progress. Also, the lens description was more of a type of perception, not suggesting it was more or less narrow than any else's perception.
Actually, I simplified the odds, which are much worse than I figured in order to simply communicate the odds in layman's terms. In order to adequately ascertain a number, one needs any sort of occurrence. No such proof or evidence of the possibility of an occurrence exists, therefore the actual statistics are more like infinity to 1. It's not proof that god doesn't exist. It's simply stating the fact that absolutely no evidence exists to suggest god is real.
That's exactly why I'm an atheist. The arrogant swagger and blind faith that are a bane to Collins' logical thought process is evident in his response. Instead of saying, "As science is ever growing and expanding our understanding of the universe", he suggests that anything beyond our understanding is god. That's stupid. Anything that's beyond our current understanding is simply undiscovered science.
You misunderstood his argument. He was arguing within a hypothetical situation in which there was god. It's not backpedaling, it's a waste of time.
I didn't say that god needs my love and respect, I said that he wants my love and respect, according to thousands of religious texts spanning the globe and the last several thousand years of human history. Again, you seem to suddenly forget that I said "On the centillion (one million to the hundredth power)-to-one chance I'm wrong," as a qualifier for the rest of the paragraph. God doesn't really exist, of course, but if he did and I was made aware of it, in that hypothetical situation, I would not respect him/her/it.
Greater than someone else's experience? Nope. It's my own personal proof.

Jennifer

I do agree that some atheists, particularly the ones in this "Blasphemy Challenge," are singling out Christianity in a confrontational manner. However, that's not to say that Christianity is blameless either. I don't know of any Youtube anti-atheist groups, but I am a bit familiar with history and a lot of persecutions have taken place in the name of Christianity (not that the religion itself stands for such things, but people in power claiming to be Christian have done many questionable things...) I don't want to get on an anti-Christian rant (I'm not anti-Christian ) but I do think a strong case could be made for Christianity "mindlessly attacking another religious belief" (That goes for all religions that I am aware of, not just Christianity (I consider Buddhism to be more of a philosophy or school of thought than a religion because there isn't any theistic belief that I'm aware of))

JustJess

The reason that I tend to react to Christians more negatively than other religions is simple: personal experience. If I tell a Jew or a Muslim that I'm not religious, they say "oh, okay". If they seem approachable, I might even get to learn more about them and their traditions and beliefs. If I tell a "Christian" (of many different flavors), many have felt that that's their chance to convert me and make me one of them. They try to convince me their way is the only right way. I feel like many Christians act like the Borg: *you will be assimilated*. Clearly, that pisses me off - I'm not trying to convince them to give up their religion, don't mess with my beliefs either!

Now... that's not to say I agree with broad-stroke generalization, or that all Christians suck - many I've met (who are honestly practitioners and not just "raised christian") are wonderful, loving, open people. It's just that I've met more who weren't. Maybe that's a function of where I grew up and went to school, who knows.

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

woohog1

Wow, thats all I can say is WOW. You guys are awesome. It really made me stop and think reading the answeres and some of the ideas being discussed on here. This is exactly what I was looking for.
I do tend to agree that most times "christians" seem to want to convert more than other religions, but all in all is it really a bad thing that they are on fire for their specific religion? I mean it seems to me that as long as you told them you werent interested, and they said ok, but maybe left you some literature or something, that that would be ok? Just my .02 cents worth. Good Job yall thanks for all the great responses!

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God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

Glory's Sun

Sure it would be ok if they left it at that and didn't make some snide comment about me burning in some damnation. In my experiences it's always, "well if you ever want to start living right, let me know." or "don't you want to go to heaven? Jesus died for you, he wants you to go to heaven with him, accept him as your savior!!" or "You sinner, blind in your ways, blah blah."

which then of course allows me the right to bash their faith and how I highly doubt that if jesus was real, she wouldn't be appreciative of their actions. It usually turns ugly at that point.

Daoust

Interesting point, woohog1. If you bought a new car, and you really liked your new car, you're probably going to want to talk about it. You probably want to show it off to people. Tell them how great you think it is. If you really like your car you're probably going to tell others that it's so great that they should get one too. Yeah, you know there are other cars out there, but if you're convinced that your car is the best one on the market, you are probably going to reveal that to people you come in contact with. Others may disagree. They may be happy with their own car. They may even get angry and offended that you would be so 'rude' as to suggest that they might be happier if they had a car like yours. But there's nothing wrong with being so happy with your car that you can't help but want to tell others how great it is. And the thing is, even though there are some people who don't like being told their car is not a great car and that they would really benefit from your car, there are many many people who may have been looking for a new car, a car that met all their needs, because the car they were driving just wasn't getting them from a to b. Those people are glad when you tell them about your car. They want to know. Sometimes they don't know how to go about getting a car like you have, but they know they want one, and they're very happy that you took the time to tell them how they can get a car like yours. Then they go buy one.

I think I took all the elasticity out of that analogy I could. I hope it makes some sense. Maybe I'm just stoking a fire that many thought was gladly dying.

I myself sometimes get tired of these kinds of discussions because they're so circular. Oh well, maybe there's some good to come of it.

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I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

pig

that's true daoust, but if i don't really know someone and they start in with the "my car is so great" speech, usually i just want to choke the everloving shit out of them, so they'll shut up and i can finish my coffee or whatnot.

one of the most insidious and annoying things about many christians down in the south is the part of their belief system that requires evangelism. you have to spread the word.

i don't know woohog, i don't carry about little pamphlets about my overriding philosophies to drop on people. all things considered, i'd prefer they save the trees, so to speak. i'm 99% positive to throw it away or in a recycling bin.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Glory's Sun

umm yeah, if someone brags about how great their car is, and I don't know them, they'll get a grand ol' "Fuck off" from me.

Piggie, you shouldn't be so quick to those those cartoon ones away.. they are fun to draw faces on and change words and hand it to someone else