Home Purchasing - Hidden Defects? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

goddfather40 · 11-15-2005, 07:31 PM

I purchased a condo in June. We had a full home inspection done by a licensed inspector, to go along with our own inspection. Everything seemed fine and dandy, until this week.

We noticed that a 30 square foot section or so of hardwood floor in our kitchen was starting to warp. There was also wetness in on our garage floor, but not too much, or at least not much that I noticed because we have carpeting in the garage. After some investigating, we determined it to be a slowly leaking water heater. We also noticed some water damage to the dry wall surrounding the little nook where our water heater is in our garage. We called our home warranty people who sent a guy out. He determined that the water heater needed to me immediately replaced and that there was some structural damage at the base of the water heater and on the walls. We he came out to install the new water heater today, he pulled out the old one only to discover that the dry wall behind it was completely rotted away to the studs. The leaking water was going behind the wall and going into the kitchen where it was warping the hardwood. Also, he pulled up the carpet in the garage and discovered extensive water stains on the garage floor. In his words, the damage to the dry wall is 'years worth' of damage. There was also an insulator cover on the water heater, which is rare to see here in warm Southern California...which lead me to believe that the previous owner knew about this.

My question is what are my legal options in this situation. It is likely going to cost a lot of money to reconstruct the dry wall and fix the hardwood floor. Our warranty does not cover the incidental damage from the water heater leak, they only replace the water heater. We had no idea that this situation existed when we bought the condo. Does this sound like it falls into the category of a 'hidden defect' which the previous owner is liable for? Should I go after the inspector who for not noticing the severe dry wall damage? By the way, in June the inspector did note some corrosion on the top water connections to the heater, but his reports stated that it was not in any danger of leaking like this.

asaris · 11-16-2005, 06:07 AM

I am merely a law student, so use my advice at your own risk. To the best of my knowledge (we're just starting to talk about this in contracts), the owner is not required to inform you of any defects; the court will imply a warantee of habitability, but not any further warantee. If there is some form of explicit warantee in the deed, or if the owner said something to you, then you have a cause of action.

On the other hand, a lot of this stuff is going to depend on jurisdiction, so you may want to consult a lawyer in your area (and I'm sure others will tell you this too).

shakran · 11-16-2005, 06:14 AM

asaris, that depends. If you ask the owner "any defects?" and he says no while knowing about the water damage, then he's responsible for it. If, however, the owner didn't know about it, which I find likely in this case since goddfather missed it as did the home inspector, then he's not responsible.

I'd be sorely tempted to go after the inspector. It's that kind of crap you're PAYING him to find. How the hell did he miss it?

flstf · 11-16-2005, 06:51 AM

You should probably at least consult an attorney to go over your options. I imagine you are probably stuck with fixing the damage yourself unless you can somehow find fault/liability with the home inspector.

I would advise you to be careful and not report this water damage to your current or prospective insurance carrier. They are flagging water damage for possible mold problems and may/can jack your insurance rate way high. Mold problems are costing them millions and some are refusing to even cover houses with water damage.

ratbastid · 11-16-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

I'd be sorely tempted to go after the inspector. It's that kind of crap you're PAYING him to find. How the hell did he miss it?

Except that when you signed his report, you were likely also signing a waiver relieving him of responsibility for things like this. Sometimes home inspectors warranty their work and other times they explicitly disclaim any and all liability for defects discovered after their inspection. Go back to the report, and any other documentation you have from the inspection company and see what you signed.

losthellhound · 11-16-2005, 01:52 PM

Ive had friends go through this before.. (and again its going to depend on where you live, and local law). Since the inspector found nothing wrong, and they signed off on it, they had to pay full repairs

StanT · 11-16-2005, 02:06 PM

It's really dependant on juristiction.

The septic leach field on my house failed six months after purchasing the home, an $11,000 problem. In my state, suing the previous owner requires proving that the previous owners knew about the problem. I suspect that they may have known, but I really couldn't prove it. The septic system was inspected at the time of the purchase, but this was a loan requirement and made no guarantee to me.

I looked into my options and forked out $11k, myself.

goddfather40 · 11-20-2005, 11:17 AM

Well, thanks for the input everyone. As I speak, we've decided to take out the new water heater ourselves and fix the dry wall. There was some rotting of a couple of studs which supported the water heater on the bottom, so we're having to replace those too. We are going to have someone, a family friend, fix the hardwood floor soon. We decided the ligation route was not the most prudent move, we'll just eat it financially...it's probably $1k of repairs. Such is life

sblime42 · 11-20-2005, 08:30 PM

I realize I'm a bit late, however, under California law every known defect has to be disclosed by the seller in the transfer disclosure statement. The problem arrises when you try to prove that the previous owner knew or should have known about the defect. Also, you'd have a pretty good case against the inspector, but you're probably end up spending more than 1K in legal fees (the lawyers I interned for charged $350 an hour) if you wanted to call him on it, and risk losing the legal fees and the $1k for the repairs. I am by no means a lawyer, however, I interned for a real estate law firm last summer and we had 3 similar cases. Also, I'm taking my real estate license exam in two weeks so all of this is relatively fresh in my mind. Either way, 1K really doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme of things (you just bought a house that has most likely already appreciated in value).

Reese · 11-23-2005, 12:31 AM

I don't know how a licensed inspector can miss a water heater leak this serious. I don't know if I'd try to make him pay the full repair amount, but I'd definitely want a refund on the inspection. I checked the American Society of Home Inspectors website and they have a huge list of things they are and aren't required to inspect and describe to you. I couldn't really tell if they were definitely at fault for not telling you because it may have been concealed from them or whatever. I don't know if all inspectors follow these standards of practice but it seems like a good place to start.

Mantus · 11-23-2005, 08:08 AM

I bet the hardwood and carpet were new. I bet there were put in to cover up previous damage. Once hardwood gets wet like this, it's almost impossible to fix it without replacing it. When you tear up the hardwood check the state of the subfloor. If it's rotten then you can bet it's been happening for a while. In such a case, the previous owner was a stuppid ass and clearly knew that the heater was leaking. He had to put in new floors to cover up the the damage but decided to save himself a few thousand by not adressing the real problem.

This is just a guess, but in my line of work I see shit like this all the time.

Leto · 11-23-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goddfather40

Well, thanks for the input everyone. As I speak, we've decided to take out the new water heater ourselves and fix the dry wall. There was some rotting of a couple of studs which supported the water heater on the bottom, so we're having to replace those too. We are going to have someone, a family friend, fix the hardwood floor soon. We decided the ligation route was not the most prudent move, we'll just eat it financially...it's probably $1k of repairs. Such is life

Probably cheaper in the long run than litigating.

I just laid out the same amount on snow tires this morning. so life has it's costs. You don't have to worry too much about snow

Rodney · 11-25-2005, 03:52 PM

If you can fix it for $1K, why fight?

We've had almost exactly that kind of damage -- water heater leaking into the kitchen. If the floor started warping only after you moved in, then most likely it had not leaked into the kitchen by then. Honestly, when this happened to me I stood around for days before I thought to check the water heater. So the owner may be clueless.

You may also want to check that the water heater is the only source of leakage. I can't believe that the heater itself has been leaking for years -- enough to damage the studs and drywall -- _without_ water leaking into the kitchen before now. Yeah, the old owner might have covered up an old, damaged floor with new hardwood. But if you're going to go to all that trouble and expense, you might as well fix the problem.

Anyway, we had a leaking water heater that warped the kitchen floor; fixed it. Then, a few months later, discovered stained wallboard and rusted nails elsewhere in the utility enclosure, up where the central heater sits. We had a contractor rip _that_ wall out, and he found a decayed stud next to a water line with a _very_ slow leak. When the house was built and they ran the pipe through the frame, somebody probably nicked it slightly with a nail from a nail gun. And it sat there, dripping slowly, for 15 years. Check for stuff like that while the work's being done.

11-15-2005, 07:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	Home Purchasing - Hidden Defects? I purchased a condo in June. We had a full home inspection done by a licensed inspector, to go along with our own inspection. Everything seemed fine and dandy, until this week. We noticed that a 30 square foot section or so of hardwood floor in our kitchen was starting to warp. There was also wetness in on our garage floor, but not too much, or at least not much that I noticed because we have carpeting in the garage. After some investigating, we determined it to be a slowly leaking water heater. We also noticed some water damage to the dry wall surrounding the little nook where our water heater is in our garage. We called our home warranty people who sent a guy out. He determined that the water heater needed to me immediately replaced and that there was some structural damage at the base of the water heater and on the walls. We he came out to install the new water heater today, he pulled out the old one only to discover that the dry wall behind it was completely rotted away to the studs. The leaking water was going behind the wall and going into the kitchen where it was warping the hardwood. Also, he pulled up the carpet in the garage and discovered extensive water stains on the garage floor. In his words, the damage to the dry wall is 'years worth' of damage. There was also an insulator cover on the water heater, which is rare to see here in warm Southern California...which lead me to believe that the previous owner knew about this. My question is what are my legal options in this situation. It is likely going to cost a lot of money to reconstruct the dry wall and fix the hardwood floor. Our warranty does not cover the incidental damage from the water heater leak, they only replace the water heater. We had no idea that this situation existed when we bought the condo. Does this sound like it falls into the category of a 'hidden defect' which the previous owner is liable for? Should I go after the inspector who for not noticing the severe dry wall damage? By the way, in June the inspector did note some corrosion on the top water connections to the heater, but his reports stated that it was not in any danger of leaking like this. __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+

11-16-2005, 06:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I am merely a law student, so use my advice at your own risk. To the best of my knowledge (we're just starting to talk about this in contracts), the owner is not required to inform you of any defects; the court will imply a warantee of habitability, but not any further warantee. If there is some form of explicit warantee in the deed, or if the owner said something to you, then you have a cause of action. On the other hand, a lot of this stuff is going to depend on jurisdiction, so you may want to consult a lawyer in your area (and I'm sure others will tell you this too). __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

11-16-2005, 01:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
losthellhound Thats MR. Muffin Face now Location: Everywhere work sends me	Ive had friends go through this before.. (and again its going to depend on where you live, and local law). Since the inspector found nothing wrong, and they signed off on it, they had to pay full repairs __________________ "Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?" -- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

11-20-2005, 11:17 AM	#8 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	Well, thanks for the input everyone. As I speak, we've decided to take out the new water heater ourselves and fix the dry wall. There was some rotting of a couple of studs which supported the water heater on the bottom, so we're having to replace those too. We are going to have someone, a family friend, fix the hardwood floor soon. We decided the ligation route was not the most prudent move, we'll just eat it financially...it's probably $1k of repairs. Such is life __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+

11-20-2005, 08:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
sblime42 Upright Location: look up	I realize I'm a bit late, however, under California law every known defect has to be disclosed by the seller in the transfer disclosure statement. The problem arrises when you try to prove that the previous owner knew or should have known about the defect. Also, you'd have a pretty good case against the inspector, but you're probably end up spending more than 1K in legal fees (the lawyers I interned for charged $350 an hour) if you wanted to call him on it, and risk losing the legal fees and the $1k for the repairs. I am by no means a lawyer, however, I interned for a real estate law firm last summer and we had 3 similar cases. Also, I'm taking my real estate license exam in two weeks so all of this is relatively fresh in my mind. Either way, 1K really doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme of things (you just bought a house that has most likely already appreciated in value). Last edited by sblime42; 11-20-2005 at 08:36 PM..

11-16-2005, 06:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	asaris, that depends. If you ask the owner "any defects?" and he says no while knowing about the water damage, then he's responsible for it. If, however, the owner didn't know about it, which I find likely in this case since goddfather missed it as did the home inspector, then he's not responsible. I'd be sorely tempted to go after the inspector. It's that kind of crap you're PAYING him to find. How the hell did he miss it?

11-16-2005, 06:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	You should probably at least consult an attorney to go over your options. I imagine you are probably stuck with fixing the damage yourself unless you can somehow find fault/liability with the home inspector. I would advise you to be careful and not report this water damage to your current or prospective insurance carrier. They are flagging water damage for possible mold problems and may/can jack your insurance rate way high. Mold problems are costing them millions and some are refusing to even cover houses with water damage.

11-16-2005, 02:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	It's really dependant on juristiction. The septic leach field on my house failed six months after purchasing the home, an $11,000 problem. In my state, suing the previous owner requires proving that the previous owners knew about the problem. I suspect that they may have known, but I really couldn't prove it. The septic system was inspected at the time of the purchase, but this was a loan requirement and made no guarantee to me. I looked into my options and forked out $11k, myself.

11-23-2005, 12:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	I don't know how a licensed inspector can miss a water heater leak this serious. I don't know if I'd try to make him pay the full repair amount, but I'd definitely want a refund on the inspection. I checked the American Society of Home Inspectors website and they have a huge list of things they are and aren't required to inspect and describe to you. I couldn't really tell if they were definitely at fault for not telling you because it may have been concealed from them or whatever. I don't know if all inspectors follow these standards of practice but it seems like a good place to start. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

11-23-2005, 08:08 AM	#11 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	I bet the hardwood and carpet were new. I bet there were put in to cover up previous damage. Once hardwood gets wet like this, it's almost impossible to fix it without replacing it. When you tear up the hardwood check the state of the subfloor. If it's rotten then you can bet it's been happening for a while. In such a case, the previous owner was a stuppid ass and clearly knew that the heater was leaking. He had to put in new floors to cover up the the damage but decided to save himself a few thousand by not adressing the real problem. This is just a guess, but in my line of work I see shit like this all the time.

11-25-2005, 03:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	If you can fix it for $1K, why fight? We've had almost exactly that kind of damage -- water heater leaking into the kitchen. If the floor started warping only after you moved in, then most likely it had not leaked into the kitchen by then. Honestly, when this happened to me I stood around for days before I thought to check the water heater. So the owner may be clueless. You may also want to check that the water heater is the only source of leakage. I can't believe that the heater itself has been leaking for years -- enough to damage the studs and drywall -- _without_ water leaking into the kitchen before now. Yeah, the old owner might have covered up an old, damaged floor with new hardwood. But if you're going to go to all that trouble and expense, you might as well fix the problem. Anyway, we had a leaking water heater that warped the kitchen floor; fixed it. Then, a few months later, discovered stained wallboard and rusted nails elsewhere in the utility enclosure, up where the central heater sits. We had a contractor rip _that_ wall out, and he found a decayed stud next to a water line with a _very_ slow leak. When the house was built and they ran the pipe through the frame, somebody probably nicked it slightly with a nail from a nail gun. And it sat there, dripping slowly, for 15 years. Check for stuff like that while the work's being done.