Run electricity outside (to a shed) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

FEIGN · 03-04-2005, 12:28 PM

Can anyone please help?

I have two sheds in my backyard, one old and one new, I would like to install electricity to both. I have only one electrical outlet on the exterior of my house, and it is located in the front of the house. I would like to do as much of this project myself as possible, without hiring a professional. I am not sure how to start, besides turning off all power to the house first. I do not know how to get the electricity from the main breaker in my basement, outside to the sheds or anywhere else I might want to install an outlet. My house is a split level model with a finished lower level. The sheds are approximately 30 feet from the breaker. I would like to install 1 or 2 light fixtures in each shed and 1 or 2 recepticals in each shed and on the exterior of the house. If I don't have to install the electricity directly to the breaker I would prefer that. I have a set of flood lights installed on the back exterior of the house, if I could somehow tie into this power line that would probably be ideal.

If any additional info is needed please let me know.

Thank you in advance for any and all advice.

vanblah · 03-04-2005, 01:02 PM

If you do this work yourself and something happens to your house or sheds your insurance will not cover it and they may cancel your coverage on the rest of your house.

I'm not saying that anything *WILL* happen, but you know ...

Anyway.

You'll probably want to dig a trench and run the circuits in conduit. It's not a difficult job ... but it IS hard work.

You'll want a 40-or 60-amp subpanel in at least the first shed that feeds from a 40-or 60-amp breaker in the main (house) panel. Even if I did it myself I would NOT use an existing circuit in the main house. I would definetly have a dedicated circuit with a sub-panel. It's just not safe to do it any other way. You may need to cut the power to the entire shed at some point.

I'd at least go to the bookstore and get a How-To book that is dedicated to wiring. The all-in-one how-to books won't go into enough detail. I have a book by Black and Decker that explains EXACTLY what you want to do.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...005697-7615113

I'm not sure if the book in the link above is still the same as the one I've got ... but it's the same title and press.

Good luck.

BTW - I hired a licensed electrician to run the conduit and put in a 40-amp subpanel in my shed. It was about $500. After the inspection I installed the receptacles and lights myself.

Powderedmaggot · 03-04-2005, 08:51 PM

You do not need a sub panel. If all you plan are a few lights and receptacles all you need is one 15 amp circuit. I don't know the US electrical code but in Canada you would need 2 conductor #14AWG cable (a cable is a group of wires (conductors) in a common casing) with sheathing rated for direct burial. We call it NMWU (the WU is for Wet Underground) It is like loomex (can't remember what you's call it in the US) but it has a thicker plastic coating and thicker insulation on the wires. If you suspect you may want to run lights and a saw or something run 2 circuits (3 conductor cable) to a regular octagonal junction box with a blank coverplate, split the circuits out of the box to your lights and receptacles.

I would hesitate to connect to an existing light circuit because it may already be loaded to the nuts. If you overload it you may repeatedly trip your breaker. Installing breakers in a panel is easy if you take one circuit all you need is a 15 amp single pole breaker. Connect the ground (bare copper) wire to the ground bus in the panel, connect the white wire to the neutral bus, connect the black wire to the breaker then push the breaker into place. Typically the wire end of the breaker clips onto a plastic (or painted metal) bar that is not energized then you push the other side onto the hot bus. Work on a hot panel is ot hard or dangerous if you pear rubber soled shoes and only have one hand in the panel and the other in your pocket you will not get zapped dead even if you try to.

Your trench should be minimum 24 inches deep in areas where there is no vehicular traffic, if you are crossing a driveway you have to go deeper (36") by code. Where you pop up out of the ground it is a good idea to put the cable in a conduit of some sort to keep the mice from eating the insulation and keep the weedeater from wailing the hell out of it. Those may not apply but if there is any doubt slide a short peice of black water line over it.

In Canada we have a book called "The elecrical code simpified" that runs about $11 that covers everything you need to kow to build a house and then some. Go down to home depot or a building supply store and ask if they have a simplified code book for residential instalations. Have a read and if you feel comfortable fly at it.

A 40 or 60 amp feed and panel is serious overkill. Not many years ago entire houses had 60 amp services for the entire house. To give you some idea, until recently my 1500 sq ft house only had 100amps, I could run all the lights, 2 ranges, 3 freezers, 2 electric water tanks, stereo, computer.....at the same time.

If you run 3 conductor #14AWG cable you can have 2 15 amp circuits. The Canadian Electrical code allows max. 80% loading on a circuit wich would allow 14 100watt ligh bulbs and one 40 watt bulb on each circuit. That's probably enough lights for your sheds with an entire circuit left over for the electric bong, stereo and chop saw.

kazoo · 03-04-2005, 09:08 PM

If the use is only for a few convenience outlets, the need for a sub-panel is questionable. Based on the 30 foot run, you can install a 20 amp branch circuit breaker in your existing main panel and run the branch feeder in #12 wire several ways, referring to table 300.5 Minimum Cover Requirements. A 12" burial depth is acceptable for type UF, with GFCI protection. If you'd like to use NM conduit, the burial depth is 18". With RM or IM conduit, the depth is 6". All of these depths are based upon no vehicular traffic over the burial run.

If you want to do more with this circuit than run a weedwhacker or power a bugzapper, then a sub-panel is in order, along with associated requirements. Note that any receptacles installed on the referenced branch feeder, if installed outside of the shed where defined as a wet location must have a protective cover as defined by 406.8(B)(1).

nofnway · 03-04-2005, 09:17 PM

I mostly agree with Powderedmaggot,.....if you just want lights 15 amp circuits would be fine..if you want to appliances or power tools...especially at the same time I would reccomend #12 circuits rather than 14. In my area they are requiring #12 in kitchens now and I can't tell you how many service calls I've gone on for people overloading 15 amp circuits with things like those little heaters or vacuum cleaners both of which draw close to the max amps for the circuit.

A 60 amp sub panel would definitely be overkill unless you planned on using heavy shop tools like welders etc...even then you would have more than you need.

kazoo · 03-04-2005, 09:18 PM

Powderedmaggot, would you care to back up your citations with NEC references as I have done? I'm intrigued to hear your explanation of two 15 amp convenience circuits using a common #14 AWG neutral.

scout · 03-05-2005, 02:43 AM

Lots of good yet pretty damn confusing information in this thread. Poor fella if he wasn't scratching his head before I bet he is for sure by now ..... HAHA. Simplified here goes ....

Set down and think for a bit about what you are gonna be using outside. Think about the most you will ever be using outside at any given time. Will you need 220v or will 110v be sufficient? This will determine how big the circuit should be. Go to Lowes or Menards etc., and buy about 40-45' of the grey wire that can be burried underground[better to have a little more than you need}. What size you buy will be determined by the amout of power you feel you need outside. If your only gonna run a few power tools or a few lights then I would probably buy 10/2 with ground. Next you will want to dig the trench between the house and the first shed. If you never plan on digging in that area then 12"-24" should suffice. Next you will want to make your penetrations in the house and into the first shed and run the wire. If you bring the wire out of the ground where it will be exposed at anytime after you place the dirt back then you will want to place plastic conduit over the wire as most underground wire is not UV rated. Plastic conduit is cheap and easy to work with. You will not need to place conduit over the wire in your basement. Just be sure to seal the small hole you make to get the wire into the basement. You can make this hole into the block with a hammer or drill through the band board. Next go outside and hook everything up out there. You can either run the wire into a sub-panel as suggested in a earlier post or run it straight into the first outlet box. You will need the branch circuit to be GFCI protected {for safety} and this can be accomplished several ways. You can either buy a GFCI rated breaker {expensive} and install that in the main power box or you can simply buy a GFCI outlet {not so expensive} and install it in the first box if you aren't setting a small sub-panel and wire everything out of there. Problem with using one GFCI outlet is anytime you exceed the limit of that one GFCI outlet you will need to push the reset button. Personally, I think I would buy a 30 amp two pole breaker and place that in the house and a sub-panel for the shed then run the wire between the main panel and the sub panel. This will allow you to have 220v outside in the sheds in case you ever need it for whatever reason, to run a small welder or 220v appliance for instance. Next I would purchase two single pole 15 or 20 amp GFCI breakers for the subpanel {one for each shed} and install them. Now you have power outside. Next I would run all my wires in the sheds using 12/2 with ground using conduit to get the wire between the sheds via conduit or buying wire that was uv rated or burying it using the underground wire. Next step is hooking everything up.
Setting a sub panel gives you a couple advantages, one being everything is protected back to the house with the 30 amp breaker. Everything in the sheds is covered by the single pole breakers installed in the sub panel. This will lesson the walks back to the house to reset the breaker. If you do happen to accidently overload the circuit chances are the 20 amp single pole will trip before the 30 back in the main will. Sure cuts down on a lot of walking .... Hope that cleared a little of the confusion up. Good Luck.

IowaEric · 03-05-2005, 07:27 AM

You should defintely check with your local building department regarding this. Here, any electrical work (aside from putting in a new outlet or something relatively simple) must have a permit pulled and/or receive inspection, and all work must be done by a licensed electrician. If you have a buddy that's licensed, I'd go that route, otherwise you are looking at a myriad of possible complications if something goes wrong.

Powderedmaggot · 03-05-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazoo

Powderedmaggot, would you care to back up your citations with NEC references as I have done? I'm intrigued to hear your explanation of two 15 amp convenience circuits using a common #14 AWG neutral.

My CEC book is at work but it is common practice to use 3 conductor cable to run 2 circuits. A kitchen spit receptacle is an example. You don't run 4#14 to them you only run 3#14 (2 hots and a neutral) if your loads are perfectly ballanced (very uncommon) there will be no current flowint in the neautral. if they are unballanced the only unballanced amount of current flows in the neutral.

kazoo · 03-05-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

Problem with using one GFCI outlet is anytime you exceed the limit of that one GFCI outlet you will need to push the reset button.

GFCI receptacles are NOT, repeat NOT overcurrent protective devices. They never were. I know you folks mean well, but I'm upset with some of the bad advice posted in this thread. The code is updated every three years, and if you don't attend training sessions to stay on top of these changes, I don't think you should be advising people. My cites are based on the 2005 NEC, and my work as a contractor, inspector, NFPA and IAEI member.

james t kirk · 03-06-2005, 01:17 PM

Powdered is right on track.

The only thing I might add is a GFI breaker in the main panel.

You can run a piece of 14-3 NMWU which will provide for 2 circuits, the only thing is that you need the proper double breaker that ensures that you take one hot lead off of one phase, and the other hot lead off of the other phase. In that case you can use one neutral.

If you take both hot phases off of the same phase with one neutral, you will have a "neutral overload" situation. This is impossible to do if you use the double 15 amp breaker however because the hot terminals in the breaker panel are staggered so that no two adjacent terminals are from the same phase.

The only thing I might add is that if if the run is over so many feet, you will experience a voltage drop due to the length of the conductors and you should switch from a 14-3 to a 12-3 NMWU.

Powderedmaggot · 03-06-2005, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazoo

and my work as a contractor, inspector, NFPA and IAEI member.

And you don't know that you can run 2 circuits with 3 conductor cable????!!!!

FEIGN · 03-07-2005, 10:15 AM

Thank you all so much for the tips and advice. I greatly appreciate it. I think my best course of action will be to hire an electrician I can trust and have him let me do whatever work I can by myself (i.e. drilling, trenches, running wire etc...) to keep the cost down, and leave the technical stuff to a licensed, and insured, professional. Thank you all again for helping me realize that this is a job I definitely don't want to tackle by myself.

Thank you all again very much.
You have been very helpful.

LewisCouch · 03-07-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderedmaggot

And you don't know that you can run 2 circuits with 3 conductor cable????!!!!

Logically this is sound, however, only if you use breakers which are on opposite phases. If you are unlucky enough to choose the same phase when wiring two different breakers, you're risking a fire if you overload the neutral. If you must do this (it would never pass inspection in my state), definitely use a double pole breaker.

The original poster has made a wise decision.

kazoo · 03-10-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderedmaggot

And you don't know that you can run 2 circuits with 3 conductor cable????!!!!

Yes, I'm aware that it can be done, however I prefer to err on the side of caution. As LewisCouch mentioned, a double breaker must be used, and care should be taken to prevent the OP or similar individual from confusing that with a "double skinny".

Discussing the question of the OP with other members, it was stressed that a separate disconnecting means for all ungrounded conductors (a two-pole switch) be provided within the outdoor shed, located higher than normal placement but not over the 6'7" rule such that power could be disconnected within the shed without travel to the main panelboard.

Beyond that, the only other concern expressed was that equipment or service with ground potential not be within the same shed(s), e.g. telco, without proper bonding requirements being observed under article 250.

03-04-2005, 12:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
FEIGN Upright Location: NEW JERSEY	Run electricity outside (to a shed) Can anyone please help? I have two sheds in my backyard, one old and one new, I would like to install electricity to both. I have only one electrical outlet on the exterior of my house, and it is located in the front of the house. I would like to do as much of this project myself as possible, without hiring a professional. I am not sure how to start, besides turning off all power to the house first. I do not know how to get the electricity from the main breaker in my basement, outside to the sheds or anywhere else I might want to install an outlet. My house is a split level model with a finished lower level. The sheds are approximately 30 feet from the breaker. I would like to install 1 or 2 light fixtures in each shed and 1 or 2 recepticals in each shed and on the exterior of the house. If I don't have to install the electricity directly to the breaker I would prefer that. I have a set of flood lights installed on the back exterior of the house, if I could somehow tie into this power line that would probably be ideal. If any additional info is needed please let me know. Thank you in advance for any and all advice. __________________ Remember, where ever you go, there you are.

03-04-2005, 01:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
vanblah Junkie	If you do this work yourself and something happens to your house or sheds your insurance will not cover it and they may cancel your coverage on the rest of your house. I'm not saying that anything WILL happen, but you know ... Anyway. You'll probably want to dig a trench and run the circuits in conduit. It's not a difficult job ... but it IS hard work. You'll want a 40-or 60-amp subpanel in at least the first shed that feeds from a 40-or 60-amp breaker in the main (house) panel. Even if I did it myself I would NOT use an existing circuit in the main house. I would definetly have a dedicated circuit with a sub-panel. It's just not safe to do it any other way. You may need to cut the power to the entire shed at some point. I'd at least go to the bookstore and get a How-To book that is dedicated to wiring. The all-in-one how-to books won't go into enough detail. I have a book by Black and Decker that explains EXACTLY what you want to do. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...005697-7615113 I'm not sure if the book in the link above is still the same as the one I've got ... but it's the same title and press. Good luck. BTW - I hired a licensed electrician to run the conduit and put in a 40-amp subpanel in my shed. It was about $500. After the inspection I installed the receptacles and lights myself. Last edited by vanblah; 03-04-2005 at 01:04 PM..

03-04-2005, 09:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
kazoo Psycho Location: Where the night things are	If the use is only for a few convenience outlets, the need for a sub-panel is questionable. Based on the 30 foot run, you can install a 20 amp branch circuit breaker in your existing main panel and run the branch feeder in #12 wire several ways, referring to table 300.5 Minimum Cover Requirements. A 12" burial depth is acceptable for type UF, with GFCI protection. If you'd like to use NM conduit, the burial depth is 18". With RM or IM conduit, the depth is 6". All of these depths are based upon no vehicular traffic over the burial run. If you want to do more with this circuit than run a weedwhacker or power a bugzapper, then a sub-panel is in order, along with associated requirements. Note that any receptacles installed on the referenced branch feeder, if installed outside of the shed where defined as a wet location must have a protective cover as defined by 406.8(B)(1). __________________ There ain't nothin' more powerful than the odor of mendacity -Big Daddy

03-04-2005, 09:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
nofnway Insane Location: under the freeway bridge	I mostly agree with Powderedmaggot,.....if you just want lights 15 amp circuits would be fine..if you want to appliances or power tools...especially at the same time I would reccomend #12 circuits rather than 14. In my area they are requiring #12 in kitchens now and I can't tell you how many service calls I've gone on for people overloading 15 amp circuits with things like those little heaters or vacuum cleaners both of which draw close to the max amps for the circuit. A 60 amp sub panel would definitely be overkill unless you planned on using heavy shop tools like welders etc...even then you would have more than you need. __________________ "Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind" Leonardo Da Vinci

03-04-2005, 09:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
kazoo Psycho Location: Where the night things are	Powderedmaggot, would you care to back up your citations with NEC references as I have done? I'm intrigued to hear your explanation of two 15 amp convenience circuits using a common #14 AWG neutral. __________________ There ain't nothin' more powerful than the odor of mendacity -Big Daddy

03-04-2005, 08:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Powderedmaggot Banned	You do not need a sub panel. If all you plan are a few lights and receptacles all you need is one 15 amp circuit. I don't know the US electrical code but in Canada you would need 2 conductor #14AWG cable (a cable is a group of wires (conductors) in a common casing) with sheathing rated for direct burial. We call it NMWU (the WU is for Wet Underground) It is like loomex (can't remember what you's call it in the US) but it has a thicker plastic coating and thicker insulation on the wires. If you suspect you may want to run lights and a saw or something run 2 circuits (3 conductor cable) to a regular octagonal junction box with a blank coverplate, split the circuits out of the box to your lights and receptacles. I would hesitate to connect to an existing light circuit because it may already be loaded to the nuts. If you overload it you may repeatedly trip your breaker. Installing breakers in a panel is easy if you take one circuit all you need is a 15 amp single pole breaker. Connect the ground (bare copper) wire to the ground bus in the panel, connect the white wire to the neutral bus, connect the black wire to the breaker then push the breaker into place. Typically the wire end of the breaker clips onto a plastic (or painted metal) bar that is not energized then you push the other side onto the hot bus. Work on a hot panel is ot hard or dangerous if you pear rubber soled shoes and only have one hand in the panel and the other in your pocket you will not get zapped dead even if you try to. Your trench should be minimum 24 inches deep in areas where there is no vehicular traffic, if you are crossing a driveway you have to go deeper (36") by code. Where you pop up out of the ground it is a good idea to put the cable in a conduit of some sort to keep the mice from eating the insulation and keep the weedeater from wailing the hell out of it. Those may not apply but if there is any doubt slide a short peice of black water line over it. In Canada we have a book called "The elecrical code simpified" that runs about $11 that covers everything you need to kow to build a house and then some. Go down to home depot or a building supply store and ask if they have a simplified code book for residential instalations. Have a read and if you feel comfortable fly at it. A 40 or 60 amp feed and panel is serious overkill. Not many years ago entire houses had 60 amp services for the entire house. To give you some idea, until recently my 1500 sq ft house only had 100amps, I could run all the lights, 2 ranges, 3 freezers, 2 electric water tanks, stereo, computer.....at the same time. If you run 3 conductor #14AWG cable you can have 2 15 amp circuits. The Canadian Electrical code allows max. 80% loading on a circuit wich would allow 14 100watt ligh bulbs and one 40 watt bulb on each circuit. That's probably enough lights for your sheds with an entire circuit left over for the electric bong, stereo and chop saw.

03-05-2005, 02:43 AM	#7 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Lots of good yet pretty damn confusing information in this thread. Poor fella if he wasn't scratching his head before I bet he is for sure by now ..... HAHA. Simplified here goes .... Set down and think for a bit about what you are gonna be using outside. Think about the most you will ever be using outside at any given time. Will you need 220v or will 110v be sufficient? This will determine how big the circuit should be. Go to Lowes or Menards etc., and buy about 40-45' of the grey wire that can be burried underground[better to have a little more than you need}. What size you buy will be determined by the amout of power you feel you need outside. If your only gonna run a few power tools or a few lights then I would probably buy 10/2 with ground. Next you will want to dig the trench between the house and the first shed. If you never plan on digging in that area then 12"-24" should suffice. Next you will want to make your penetrations in the house and into the first shed and run the wire. If you bring the wire out of the ground where it will be exposed at anytime after you place the dirt back then you will want to place plastic conduit over the wire as most underground wire is not UV rated. Plastic conduit is cheap and easy to work with. You will not need to place conduit over the wire in your basement. Just be sure to seal the small hole you make to get the wire into the basement. You can make this hole into the block with a hammer or drill through the band board. Next go outside and hook everything up out there. You can either run the wire into a sub-panel as suggested in a earlier post or run it straight into the first outlet box. You will need the branch circuit to be GFCI protected {for safety} and this can be accomplished several ways. You can either buy a GFCI rated breaker {expensive} and install that in the main power box or you can simply buy a GFCI outlet {not so expensive} and install it in the first box if you aren't setting a small sub-panel and wire everything out of there. Problem with using one GFCI outlet is anytime you exceed the limit of that one GFCI outlet you will need to push the reset button. Personally, I think I would buy a 30 amp two pole breaker and place that in the house and a sub-panel for the shed then run the wire between the main panel and the sub panel. This will allow you to have 220v outside in the sheds in case you ever need it for whatever reason, to run a small welder or 220v appliance for instance. Next I would purchase two single pole 15 or 20 amp GFCI breakers for the subpanel {one for each shed} and install them. Now you have power outside. Next I would run all my wires in the sheds using 12/2 with ground using conduit to get the wire between the sheds via conduit or buying wire that was uv rated or burying it using the underground wire. Next step is hooking everything up. Setting a sub panel gives you a couple advantages, one being everything is protected back to the house with the 30 amp breaker. Everything in the sheds is covered by the single pole breakers installed in the sub panel. This will lesson the walks back to the house to reset the breaker. If you do happen to accidently overload the circuit chances are the 20 amp single pole will trip before the 30 back in the main will. Sure cuts down on a lot of walking .... Hope that cleared a little of the confusion up. Good Luck.

03-05-2005, 07:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
IowaEric Tilted Location: You'd never guess..	You should defintely check with your local building department regarding this. Here, any electrical work (aside from putting in a new outlet or something relatively simple) must have a permit pulled and/or receive inspection, and all work must be done by a licensed electrician. If you have a buddy that's licensed, I'd go that route, otherwise you are looking at a myriad of possible complications if something goes wrong.

03-06-2005, 01:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Powdered is right on track. The only thing I might add is a GFI breaker in the main panel. You can run a piece of 14-3 NMWU which will provide for 2 circuits, the only thing is that you need the proper double breaker that ensures that you take one hot lead off of one phase, and the other hot lead off of the other phase. In that case you can use one neutral. If you take both hot phases off of the same phase with one neutral, you will have a "neutral overload" situation. This is impossible to do if you use the double 15 amp breaker however because the hot terminals in the breaker panel are staggered so that no two adjacent terminals are from the same phase. The only thing I might add is that if if the run is over so many feet, you will experience a voltage drop due to the length of the conductors and you should switch from a 14-3 to a 12-3 NMWU. Last edited by james t kirk; 03-06-2005 at 01:22 PM..

03-07-2005, 10:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
FEIGN Upright Location: NEW JERSEY	Thank you all so much for the tips and advice. I greatly appreciate it. I think my best course of action will be to hire an electrician I can trust and have him let me do whatever work I can by myself (i.e. drilling, trenches, running wire etc...) to keep the cost down, and leave the technical stuff to a licensed, and insured, professional. Thank you all again for helping me realize that this is a job I definitely don't want to tackle by myself. Thank you all again very much. You have been very helpful. __________________ Remember, where ever you go, there you are.