Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

- Tilted Gaming (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-gaming/)

- - well? (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-gaming/86068-well.html)

recently while surfing the net(like always :D) i came across a g4tv article about GTA. it's pretty old (like Oct. '04), but it still got me thinking.

please read article first before trying to answer to the poll. my question is at the bottom.

link

Quote:

Anyone involved with the video game industry knows that it is no stranger to controversy. Most of the scandals have involved an unprecdented amount of graphic violence or exploitation of women. Until recently, the portrayal of people of color was a non-issue, since the vast majority of Black characters were featured in sports games, which rarely cause a stir.

But as the pool of Black and Hispanic gamers exploded over the past few years, developers seemed to recognize for the first time that people of color were not representated in games outside the sports arena. This year, a slew of new non-sports games has been released that features Black and Hispanic characters-- but these games almost exclusively revolve around violence and crime.

Developers contend that the very nature of video games is one of excess, so that even “realistic” games are perpetuated by an element of fantasy. Since games offer the audience a chance to simulate experiences at an extreme level, many elements must be exaggerated, including testosterone, sexuality, and violence. Game companies argue that it naturally follows that the people in games are closer to caricatures rather than characters. Their defense is often one of an "equal-opportunity" offender.

Sadly, discussion regarding the impact of such games inevitably seems to disintegrate into rhetoric. Does Lara Croft’s strong and sassy archetype represent progress or are those two characteristics far outweighed by two other assets, those 36D breasts? GTA: Vice City was widely criticized for glorifying a criminal lifestyle, but what about the glamorization of the Italian mafia stereotype? And the oldest question since the birth of video games: how much does video game violence really contribute to real-life bloodshed?

As annoying as they may be, we can’t deny the relevance of these questions; video games have a significant influence on society that grows each year as gaming becomes more universally accepted as a valid part of our culture. Yet journalists are content to revisit these issues in the same superficial, polarizing context as always, rather than trying to dig deeper and incite a more meaningful dialogue.

Even more disappointing is the way the media has neglected to examine how the game consumers themselves actually react to the cultural implications of these kinds of games.

When Rock Star began releasing information about GTA: San Andreas, journalists were quick to attack its stereotypical representation of young Black men. Newspapers and websites across the country ran stories investigating the impact of a game that featured a cast of predominantly Black and Hispanic characters portrayed in a world of gang violence, drugs crime, and corruption.

The consensus among these articles was outrage at what one columnist called “insidious racism.” A New York Times article quoted a father likening video games featuring Black characters to “pixilated minstrel shows.” But very little was said about how gamers themselves respond to such themes in games.

While pundits look to the content of video games to measure racial progress, they’re entirely missing a far more significant indicator: how do gamers feel about playing games like this?

Rather than doing exactly what I’ve accused other journalists of doing and analyzing the crap being flung on the many GTA: SA message boards, I’ll just give you an unedited sample.

In the posts dating back the earliest, the discussions revolved around surprise that the main character, Carl Johnson, is a young Black man living in the gang-ravaged streets of a Los Angeles-like city in the mid ‘90’s:

"to bad that your a black dude and that you can't choose from a char."

"who is the main character in the game any one know? i couldn't tell from the trailors but it looked like some black guy... I really dont want some Hood game i like the whole Mob appeal.”

“I watched another clip from the game and saw the black guy running aorund and was hoping that they had some side missions where you used him but not as the main character, i want sopranos sh*t going on thats half the fun.... Tommy could kick in LA....i'm with Luther i dont want to play Boys N' the Hood”

“CAN"T STAND THE FACT THAT HE's black... no racism here, just love the whole mob thing”

"i DEMAND there BE ONLY WHITE HEROES IN A GAME ((not being racist nazi)) BUT BLACK PPL RUIN THE GAME AND MAKE IT UNPLAYABLE."

"The other thing is playing a black man. The original GTA game would let you select from a variety of races, sexes and body types. The PC versions of these games let you skin your character so you could conceivably put your own image in the game. I would prefer playing as an organised crime boss than a hip-hopping gangsta simply because of the style of missions it involves. One of my favourite missions in GTA3 is where you pick up the mob bosses in the stretch limo. I just think picking up 'ballas' in my lowrider is not going to have the same game feel, but I'll wait and see."

After learning that CJ was Black, a few forum members said they wouldn’t buy the game, including one person who had already preordered it:

“wait... the main character is black? me cancels preorder.”

Some people used the same argument that the many journalists have used, that the problem is not that the game features Black character, but that the game glorifies a gang lifestyle:

"Its not the fact that he's black, its the fact that he's a black gangster, the anoying kind that listens to gangster rap and talks in slang. That is going to be very annoying."

But most, while seeming confident that they were not being racist, said they just couldn’t “relate” to a Black character:

"If I'm going to play a role it should be a role of my choosing. It's not hard to do."

"That's odd seeing as the demogrpahic playing the game has to be overwhelmingly white. I can no more relate to playing a brother, than I can playing a chick. I'm sure the wannabes will love it. "

Unfortunately, no one addressed the man who couldn’t fathom playing a “chick,” but who has most likely played Lara Croft in Tomb Raider countless times. But in response to the idea that players couldn’t “relate” to a Black person, many forums members picked up on the fact that video games are by definition about escaping from one’s own identity:

"As for relating to the characters... I don't relate to football players in Fifa, or any of the other characters in any of the previous GTA series, or any of the characters in any of my games. Even Outlaws. Playing these characters is good fun, like watching characters I don't relate to in movies. In fact, the games that I could relate to (The Sims is about normal people like me), I find as boring as hell."

"I'm black, and I don't mind what character I play, but it is nice to play someone of my own ethnicity. I feel comfortable playing any character, the people who made posts earlier that they are uncomfortable playing a black guy that's their problem. I don't think you all are racist, just ethnically sensitive. I'm not offended if you want to play or not play the main character. Besides, I think for the PC you are allowed to pick a skin for your PC. At least it was like that for Vice City."

"you dont want to play a game because the main character is black?? sounds pretty damn racist to me - or discriminatory at the very least... and why wouldnt that argument go against a "space marine from the future" or a hideous race of insectoid aliens, or an evil genius, or *GASP* a FEMALE? because the fiction is more exaggerated? take a hint from Rob Zombie: "art isnt safe" "

Other forum members sensed the direction the threads were taking, so they began to respond with social enlightenment and gaming logic:

"i guess some people still want to divide humans into different colors, but to me they are all the same stupid species... with plenty of daily evidence for that"

"It wouldn't make sense to play a white guy, when the game obviously has roots in Boyz N the Hood, Menace II Society, Juice, and the like. (In much the same way that Vice City was rooted in Miami Vice\Scarface, and GTA3 was rife with references to Godfather\Goodfellas.)"

An overwhelmingly common response was to "reassure" those who didn’t want to play a black character that they would be able to use a mod to make CJ white:

"Once it comes out on the computer im looking for the first white person mod :)"

"I think for the PC you are allowed to pick a skin for your PC. At least it was like that for Vice City."

"If you think a game made in Edinburgh is going to solely focus on being a member of early 90s black-stroke-hispanic gangs, then you're being very silly."

"Guys… you don’t have to be a black guy. In past gtas you could change your character with a cheat. And people will make skins so… it’s all good."

So while journalists were busy writing about how video games are perpetuating stereotypes, they overlooked something even more disturbing: the incredible fact that some people won't even consider playing a character in a video game who is Black.

Forget the broo-ha-ha over gangs and violence and rap music effecting the people who play these games, let's take a look at the people who won't play these games--not because they are uncomfortable with the glamorization of violence or exploitation of Black youth--but for the simple fact that they don't like Black people.

These folks normally can't be so open about their distaste for people of color, but because of the anonymity of message boards, they feel empowered and safe enough to do so in the context of video games.

So at the end of the day, this isn't really a discussion about the video game industry or even its culture, it's about where we really are as a society.

Developers and publishers don't follow ideologies, they follow money. Game companies have long found success in mimicking what’s profitable in Hollywood--and right now, "urban" is hot. And while executives can't escape responsibility just because they're pandering to the audience, they can certainly share responsibility with the people in that audience.

We as gamers need to think about the themes we're playing with in games. But more importantly, we need to take a look at the themes being played out in our real lives. We must also carefully consider what it means that there are people around us-- our friends, our game buddies, those we chat with every day-- who aren't even willing to play a game with a Black hero.

And we must take solace in the few rays of hope on those GTA: SA message boards:

"i don't mind playing black people in games. i think it's because i'm not racist"

"whenever i talk too my friends about gta sa they get all pissed off because the main character is black. I actually look forward to a change. anyone else looking forward to it?"

--------------------------------------
so here's the poll question: would you refrain from buying/playing a game because of the race of the main character?

~ personally, i would not. the only time i would not buy a game is when i am absolutly sure that it sucks ass. i don't buy/play gta "theme" type games because that's not really the type of game i like to play. however i wouldn't not get a game because the hero is "the wrong race." that's a stupid reason in my opinion.

I voted no. The race doesn't change a thing.

I gotta say having a black character really doesn't seem to have had an impact on the sales of GTA:SA. They sold a ridiculous amount.

Uh, no. Why should/would a character's race change anything? Grow the fuck up you ignorant racists (not directed at anyone here). People are stupid.

The article didn't have a main topic it concentrated on but I definitely voted "no." Carl Johnson is one of the best developed characters in any videogame, period. I came to an appreciation of lifestyles that I didn't know anything about. Rockstar knows how to do one thing really well: develop characters. Black, white, whatever, they know how to write some damn characters. After playing San Andreas and successfully completing the story, I've decided that San Andreas might have the best story out of all of the GTA games, mainly because of the lifestyle of Carl and his family.

-Lasereth

That article is silly. I could go to gamefaqs and find just as many quotes about people who can't wait to play with a black main character. Also can you really take someone who quotes stuff like "me cancels preorder" seriously?

As for the original question, no it doesn't matter to me at all. My only problem with the newest GTA was the amount of swearing. To me it was a bit to excessive, on the verge of comical really.

I get embarrased for people that could be so small-minded and racist that the color of their characters skin would influence a game buying decision.

But then again, I still get violent listening to the continual drivel about "video game violence and sexuality" when in the HELL are these people going to accept resposibility for their children, and start raising them and teaching them the difference between a GAME and REAL LIFE?! Game violence reflected in real life? Where the hell were that kids parents, and why didn't he know at age 5 that shooting a person is a bad idea and does not constitute fun? As for some of the rest of the crap people do and try to pawn off on pop culture references, I agree with Chris Rock, what the hell ever happened to somebody being just plain crazy?

How many times in that article was it necessary to provide a quote saying me no like blacks?

Quite a poorly constructed article... I don't give a shit if the character is black/white/male/female/fat/skinny/beautiful/ugly just so long as they're interesting and the game concept and gameplay are good.

I voted no, but I have to say, I agree to a certain extent with those who expressed their dislike of playing a black character. Games like GTA are, in part, fun because you can identify with the main character, and imagine it's you whose doing these things that you wouldn't/couldn't do in real life. When the main character is of a different race or gender from you, this identification becomes more tenuous.

And because so many gamers identify with the psychopathic Mr Vercetti? Unlike others, CJ seems to almost have a concience. At least, in the cutscenes. I don't think his character is very well suited to the mass-murder of GTA.

I bet I could guess the age of most of the poster's quoted.

I voted no because I've been forced to play outside of my race countless times. Being asian, my race almost never gets represented. Then again I've moved from looking at people as different races to looking at them as "worth my time" and "not worth my time".

I don't mind playing as someone outside my race. In fact it's kinda refreshing. I don't see how the race of the character affects anything. As long as it's fun, who cares. Although it probably doesn't reflect the opinion of the majority, it's still depressing to see that people would think or act that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

So you're Italian, right? Because I wouldnt' think that, say, a German or Irish or French or British (etc.) guy could necessarily relate to an Italian guy. Or does white skin just wipe out any distinctions between national origin? I'm white, but I don't pretend to "identify" with everyone else who shares my level of melatonin.

Nope, I'm solidly Dutch. But the closer someone is to your ethnicity, the easier it is. It's not like it's all or nothing.

Definately no.
For me, video games are about doing things I can't do in real life.
I can't be other races in real life. I guess I can go around doing all the stuff in GTA, but that'd be illegal. When I buy a video game, I want an escape from reality. That's why I don't play sports games.

At first maybe I was a little put off, like the guy in the article said, it's nice to play someone who kinda looks like you because it's easier to relate to them in the game.

But after playing GTA:SA countless hours, the game just would not have worked if the main character wasn't CJ. Rockstar really covered all their bases and pulled off a wicked game. So to answer the question, I don't really mind at all.

I like to play people that are nice looking, and that kinda look like me/ white female blonde hair blue eyes.
But if it's a cool looking dude that look's strong I will pick him also, he would probably be white.
All my barbies where white as a kid.
would not matter who I would play just as long as I beat the game.

Personally, I imagined the GTA games as a sort of Goodfellas esque game, just with more guns, and in a bigger city.

Certain games require a certain race for the main character. For instance, if they made a "Braveheart" game(one that didn't suck), and made the main character a black fellow from Englewood..I wouldn't be buying it.

However, if you are talking about a totally made up video game, from scratch, I personally believe that race does play a role, in the type of character in the game. For instance, almost always video games typecast characters and races. Usually, they make blackpeople out to be gangsters/hard hitters.

Also, take the game "Crimison Skies" for Xbox, a good game, but it would not have made sense for the main character to of been black. Because of the "film noir" feel of the game, and the others in the game, it simply would have made the game worse had the main char of been black.

Now, I know that everyone will say "race doesn't matter" in a video game, I would still purchase a game regardless of the main characters race, however, in certain times, certain races are more fitting to certain roles. Be it asian, black, or white, some are more reasonable than others.

Personally, I think you should be able to custom make your character in any video game(like most open RPG's, WoW, etc). That would end the debate right off the bat.

As another poster said, I simply relate more to a character that looks similar to me, or is the same race.

I wouldn't mind whatever the main character's race was. If I don't mind playing an animal or an alien or a mythical being, I don't see why race matters. It's all about keep options open so the player may create the image they want to be.

While the race of the main character in games doesn't matter to me, I just didn't enjoy playing this one. I really enjoyed the almost Italian gangster style of the first game and it was fun to play vc because I remember watching all the shows like that (little too young to actually live it) and everything seemed to be right on. They did an excellent job putting you in that scene, if you will. This new game also did that but it put me in a scene that I hate. Call me closed minded but I just don't like rap at all - I hate the subculture, I hate the lifestyle, I hate the music and everything associated with it.

That being said, I don't think they could have picked a better character for the game. Just like Laserith said, he was a very well developed character and fit well into the game. I doubt they could have had the success that they did with this game had the character been much different. He fit perfectly.