Belinda Stronach defects - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 07:20 AM

http://www.canada.com/national/story...c-d6c18c26548c

What do you think of this?
Do you think this guarantees the Liberals a Win on Thursday?
What do you think this does for her Career?
Can she be the next Liberal PM after Martin?
What do you think about political defection in general?

Here is what I think.

This of course will certainly help the Liberals one seat out of the hands of the Tories and into the hands of the Liberals. I think that brings the numbers to
151 - Liberals & NDP
152 - Tories and Bloc
3 - Independants

Since it looks like two of the independants will be voting for the Budget, it looks like Kilgour will either tie it up or cause the Liberals to win. It is all in the hands of Kilgour.

I am not sure if this is bad for her career. She may have a more realistic shot at PM if she is a Liberal.

In general I am against defection.

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 07:23 AM

Oh, and what about her constituents?
Did they vote for her becuase she was who she was or did they vote for her becuase she was a Tory?

Did she ask them if she shoudl join the Liberals?
Maybe alot of them felt that the Tories should not bring done the government or reject the budget but did they want her to join the Liberals.
When they voted for her they gave her the mandate to represent them as a Conservative party member.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 07:24 AM

HOLY SHIT!

That is just too amazing...

She was always a left leaning Conservative and probably was much more suited to the PC party of old. Ultimately she was always much more in tune to Martin's right leaning Liberals.

/catty
I wonder how this will effect her budding relationship with Peter McKay?
/end catty

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 07:25 AM

That is a question that I was thinking of asking but forgot about in my haste to post teh news.

Next party leaders after the current ones?
McKay and Stronach?

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticky

Oh, and what about her constituents?
Did they vote for her becuase she was who she was or did they vote for her becuase she was a Tory?

Did she ask them if she shoudl join the Liberals?
Maybe alot of them felt that the Tories should not bring done the government or reject the budget but did they want her to join the Liberals.
When they voted for her they gave her the mandate to represent them as a Conservative party member.

That will come out in the wash next election... That said, most probably voted for her because of who she is... The Stronach's are a powerful force in the local economy and much loved by the locals.

The more I think about things, she probably ran Conservative to please her Dad...

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 07:29 AM

this just bothers me.

Never mind the fact that I am anti-Liberal at the moment.

I hate party jumping. If there is something wrong with your party, fix it.

If I was a Liberal supporter right now I may be happy but in the future I would be thinking - Do we really want this right leaning person as an MP? and possibly as a future party leader?

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticky

If I was a Liberal supporter right now I may be happy but in the future I would be thinking - Do we really want this right leaning person as an MP? and possibly as a future party leader?

She is no more right than Martin. She is exactly the fiscal conservative/socially liberal type that everyone seems to want.

I think she will be much happier being a Liberal than being with Harper and the Reform Party.

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 07:44 AM

Harper is answering questions right now
http://www.940news.com/

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 07:54 AM

I missed it... what did Harper have to say?

Powderedmaggot · 05-17-2005, 08:08 AM

I think she should have to have the consent of her constituency before pulling shit like that. Since that is unrealistic there should be a byelection in the riding, which amounts to the same thing. It looks like the liberals prolly have it sewed up until a couple independents decide to vote with the Conservatives.

I think she may have just killed her political career. No one will want to elect someone who flip flops parties in the middle of a term.

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 08:09 AM

He said that he feels that alot of the conservatives would be devestated.

He also said that he told his wife a few days ago that he thought Belinda was realising that her leadership ambitions would not be reached with this party.

He said that he was happy that this happened now rather then during an election campaign.

He said that there is no principals or morals involved in this move and that it is all about ambition to back that up he mentioned the number of times she voted with the rest of the party (just last week) to bring down the government.

In general he was very calm and did not get all crazy, hot, or worked up. He answered very calmly.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderedmaggot

I think she may have just killed her political career. No one will want to elect someone who flip flops parties in the middle of a term.

You forget she is based in Ontario... she will have no problem winning her seat in the upcomming election.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 08:29 AM

...the dollar just shot up after this news... interesting.

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

...the dollar just shot up after this news... interesting.

Interesting, but expected I guess.

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 08:39 AM

What about the following:
How do you think it affects the Quebec voters. Do you think that this adds to the Bloc support? I think so.
Do you think it has an effect on the Parti Qubecois? I think it may.

Janey · 05-17-2005, 08:43 AM

I think she fits in perfectly with the political party that I want to vote for: The Progressive ConLiberals. We need people like her, plus John Torry and Paul Martin style politics, so that the Business of government can be managed, to satisfy the up to 2 standard deviations of canadian society, with the remainder fringe elements around just to keep them honest....

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 08:43 AM

I'm not so sure... if anything the Adscam had already given all sorts of support to the Bloc and PQ. I don't know that this will have any bearing on things...

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 09:15 AM

Inneresting,..

Motives,...let's see:

She realizes she can become Prime Minister sooner with the Liberals than the Conservatives.

She is a spy for the Conservatives.

Her daddy probably owes favors so a senate seat or seats somewhere through the Magma conglomerate were surely part of the process and will be awarded in due time.

She is an attention whore and wasn't getting her share with the tories. I bet Peter McKay wishes now that the ass to mouth action was a reality and not just a fantasy.

Aside from that I don't think she really matters a whole lot. She is a political rookie still wet behind the ears. Congrads to the Liberal machine for making her first points the same old ,....Canada will be torn apart, the tories are playing with the future of Canada, we need to save Canada,...blah, blah, blah. Thankfully for her there are stupid people in this country that believe such nonsense, and not just a few of them, entire fields of green grass full of them.

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 09:47 AM

Oh and uh,..the respect factor. Since she has always touted that she is in politics for the people, why didn't she become an independent? Maybe because she is in politics for the power rather than the people. And her constituents? Don't count on them forgeting anytime soon.

In time she will realize that she can't get to the top of the heap as fast as she would prefer, and then she'll go running back to daddy and his billions.

Excuse my bias. I have never liked her and feel she is more full of shit than a port-o-potty at a construction site. I have no respect for her. She reminds me of a less charismatic, less yappy, less brash Sheila Copps. An intellectual lightweight only shadowed by her naivety

Sticky · 05-17-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

Oh and uh,..the respect factor. Since she has always touted that she is in politics for the people, why didn't she become an independent? Maybe because she is in politics for the power rather than the people. And her constituents? Don't count on them forgeting anytime soon.

Two things
1. She also could have just voted for the budget.
2. Canadians will for get. If not, they will forgive. If not, they just ignore their feelings.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 10:11 AM

Time will tell... she is still, politically speaking, wet behind the ears.

I think it would have been far more respectable for her to become an independant and them go Liberal before the next election. As it is, I think she has done a lot to bolster Martin...

No surprise that she came out swinging against Harper... Call me stupid, but I wouldn't trust him to run the country.

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Time will tell... she is still, politically speaking, wet behind the ears.

I think it would have been far more respectable for her to become an independant and them go Liberal before the next election. As it is, I think she has done a lot to bolster Martin...

No surprise that she came out swinging against Harper... Call me stupid, but I wouldn't trust him to run the country.

I don't know if she has bolstered Martin more or has polarized the political landscape more. I think it is a huge risk for the Liberals putting her in that position, and liken it to a trade in hockey just before the deadline and to power up things for the playoffs. You never know how they will perform. After the playoffs, bye bye. After an election, if such is the case, she won't be a welcomed Liberal especially calling Martin 'morally and ethically corrupt' and a 'desperate man' last year.

And not to mention how she is going to be torn to shreds in Question Period. I can hear it now,..."Mr Speaker can the minister please tell us how she can fully function in her position when she has stated that her now leader is corrupt and morally bankrupt." Must say, I can't wait.

She is a politic pawn, plain and simple. Watching the CBC and soundbites by everyday Canadians from coast to coast, it doesn't seem people are too thrilled by her flip flop. From those asked, it appears this is just another desperate attempt by Martin to retain power at any cost.

Agreed with you Charlatan concerning Harper, but I'll go one further. I don't trust ANY of the clowns who are at the political precipice of power to run anything anymore complex than a Dickey Dee ice cream bicycle.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 10:55 AM

The hockey trade analogy is apt... Like I said, time will tell.

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the on the street interviews yet... not surprised that many will see her "flip flop" in a negative light... I mean, it was only what, two years ago she was running for leadership of the party she just left?

Granted, she was one of those who truly wished that the new party would be more PC than Reform... it must be very uncomfortable for all the PC types in the new party as the power in the party is consolidated in the Reform stronghold...

As for your comment that you wouldn't trust any of them... Dickie Dee (Richard D anyone?) aside. Is there anyone who you would like to see running the country (I'm throwing this out to everyone...).

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Is there anyone who you would like to see running the country (I'm throwing this out to everyone...).

From a Liberal perspective I'd like to see what John Manley could do. He seemed like one of the few who actually wanted to see the betterment of the country rather than just primping and posing to inflate his ego.

From a Conservative perspective I'd like to see what Mike Harris could do. Althought hated in some sectors by Ontarian's he was a man of his word and fixed the prior Liberal/NDP mess he inherited. And he did very well considering the legacy that Mulroney left regarding the disdain directed at the Conservative party.

NDP -- Don't want to see them ever in power. It's nice to fantasize that things are all pink, warm and fuzzy, but when push comes to shove, Canada cannot afford that party.

And if Lucien Duceppe wasn't hell bent on a sovereign Quebec but rather a sovereign Canada, he would probably make the best out of what I have listed.

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 01:50 PM

Gilles Duceppe... Lucien Bouchard...

BigBen · 05-17-2005, 01:51 PM

ME.

Me, Baby. Think about that for a second...

Ooooh. It feels so good! No wonder I make love to myself 4.742 times per day.

I would institute the following:

Every friday is now called "Beer and Wings Day" where all federal employees get the day off to drink beer and eat hot wings.

Visiting heads of state would have to do 'shots' to prove that their country is worthy of our respect. (I think Russia would kick ass)

People would be given a yearly tax benefit if they legally changed their last name to "Strombolopolous"

"Fuck man, I don't know, I was wasted" will be written into the Canada Criminal Code as an excuse for a vast majority of crimes.

Am I missing anything? You guys would be begging for Martin back after I had power for 1 day!

Charlatan · 05-17-2005, 01:59 PM

As for your choices... interesting.

I always thought Martin would be good at the job but he was hamstrung by Cretien in the end. I say this based on the fact that he was a pretty good finance minister for the past several years.

I just don't think I could stomach having Mike Harris in the big seat... While I can respect his ability to do what he said he would do, I just didn't like everything he did and don't think his style would work quite so well on the national and international level. I don't think he is a very good statesman quite frankly.

My ideal situation (and I've said it before) would be a Liberal minority with the NDP holding the balance of power (either in a coalition or just a vote by vote basis). I tend to agree that NDP government probably wouldn't be the *best* thing for Canada (despite the fact that I continue to vote NDP). They are, however, an essential part of our political spectrum and work very well in opposition.

I haven't seen much of M. Duceppe but am intrigued by what I have heard. It really is too bad he's on the seperatist kick.

Ultimately, I am looking for a centrist party with left leaning sesibilities. One that is both fiscally responsible (notice I didn't say conservative) and socially responsible. I don't know that Martin is the right leader for the Liberals to pull this off and don't see anyone currently that has the leadership chops to pull the Liberals out of this mess they are in...

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Gilles Duceppe... Lucien Bouchard...

Me and my politico friends call Gilles Lucien rather than Gilles because he reminds us of Lucien's younger brudder. And because he looks more like a Lucien than a Gilles. Actual he looks more like a Jean-Guy than either Gilles or Lucien.

To bad he's a seperatist. I think the collective intelligences of Martin, Harper and Layton don't come close to Duceppe, ..politically speaking. Right country, wrong party.

OFKU0 · 05-17-2005, 03:51 PM

And someone else, albeit not a politician but an extraordinary businessman would be Terry Matthews. He co-founded Mitel and then later Newbridge. Self made billionaire, very intelligent and surprisingly down to earth. No power or ego trips. Actually eats at East Side Mario's all the time with his wife. Very nice people. If he became Prime Minister he would redefine the word class. Or just show everyday Canadians what class is since it's been awhile.

As for Stronach, if she fucking says one more time the Tories and the Bloc are set to destroy Canada and that is their main goal, I'll scream so loud they'll hear it on Parliament Hill. If she truly believes that, then she is even dumber than the rest of Canadians who believe that too.

Note to Belinda. If the Bloc wanted so desperately to seperate, they would have done it by now. Why are they siding with the Tories? Because they think they can get more free money than with the Liberals, hence the cooling down of seperatist, blackmailing rhetoric. Yeeesh. And she wanted to be a party leader. Now that's fucking scary.

wolfpack0102 · 05-17-2005, 07:59 PM

First thing i find Belinda attractive. If she were to lose her top I think it would do wonders for her.

For the task at hand lets face it: Martin offers her a cabinet postion right off the bat. That was what got her into the postion bar none.

Single? 39 oooohhh!

feelgood · 05-17-2005, 11:20 PM

I'd hit it

But I wouldn't vote it

Besides, wtf? Don't you need to consult with your voters before you decide to pull a stunt like this? It's pretty obvious she's looking to gain some favors by doing this. Ontario may be a liberal territory but that doesn't mean shit to the people who voted for her to represent them in the conservative party.

Sticky · 05-18-2005, 05:32 AM

What about Bernard Lord, everybody was talking him up? I don't know much about him.
Brian Tobin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I always thought Martin would be good at the job but he was hamstrung by Cretien in the end.

I also thought that he would be better, but you are righyt. He was setup. Chretien, as much as I can't stand him, was a brilliant polititian. I think if he really wanted to he probably could have run again and won again. Thinking back on him stepping down with my hindsight 20/20 glasses, maybe he knew that all the quebec ad scandal stuff was going to blow up.

I was watching the news last night and I saw a clip of Martin meeting the Queen. I have to say, I felt so much better with him meeting heads of state than with Chretien meeting them. The meeting looked so normal. It actually looked official. Somthing we have not seen in a long time.

Charlatan · 05-18-2005, 05:48 AM

Was it just me or was Paul Martin everywhere yesterday?

He was in Winnipeg for the Queen, Ottawa for Belinda and then I am sure I saw him in one more place as well... Man, he really gets around.

I think Chretien knew the sponsorship scandal was coming and I think he is just loving the fact that Martin is having to face all of the heat...

Here is a question... as I see it the next election will go one of two ways: Martin loses and he steps down or Harper loses and he steps down.

Who will lead the conservatives?
Who will lead the liberals?

Sticky · 05-18-2005, 06:28 AM

Let's add a few more options
1. Martin wins majority
2. Martin wins a minority but Libs and NDP hold a majority together
3. Martin wins a minority but Tories and Bloc hold a majority together
4. Harper wins a minority but Libs and NDP or Libs and Bloc hold a majority together
5. Unlikely: Harper wins a minority but Tories and NDP hold a mojority together
6. Harper wins all out

Who resigns
1. Harper must resign
2. Harper should resign in favour of someone more from the Old Tory side. Martin should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election
3. Martin must resign
4. Martin should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election. Harper should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election
5. Martin must resign
6. Martin is crucified

Charlatan · 05-18-2005, 06:32 AM

You forgot...

7. NDP wins minority
8. NDP wins all...

7 or 8 results in both Harper and Martin resigning...

Yeah... that's gonna happen anytime soon.

BigBen · 05-18-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Was it just me or was Paul Martin everywhere yesterday?

He was in Winnipeg for the Queen

Ouch, buddy. The Queen is in REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN to celebrate our centennial.

You easterners always forget about our province. "Winnepeg/Calgary" or "Winnepeg/Edmonton/Calgary".

What about Regina? Saskatoon! It is like calling Toronto "Ottawa, or around there, close enough"

I am going to seperate now. Come on, Prairie Brothers!! The time is now! We held a secret vote which stated that the 1,250,000th time that someone forgot about us, we would revolt.

Charlatan, you just happened to be the 1,250,000th. Nothing personal.

Sticky · 05-18-2005, 06:41 AM

I don't think that you would have to worry about them resigning in those cases. Should that actually happen, Gilles would probably come in to the Commons and gun everyone down for blowing the election. In fact Quebec would probably have a really easy time separating and then the country is gone.

Charlatan · 05-18-2005, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen931

Ouch, buddy. The Queen is in REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN to celebrate our centennial.

Charlatan, you just happened to be the 1,250,000th. Nothing personal.

FUCK!

Yes, my mistake... I know she was in Regina... Regina means Queen in Latin and I remember thinking, "isn't that apropos".

I don't know why I was thinking Winnipeg... must have been something else on the news...

Damn... I hate factual errors.

Charlatan · 05-18-2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticky

I don't think that you would have to worry about them resigning in those cases. Should that actually happen, Gilles would probably come in to the Commons and gun everyone down for blowing the election. In fact Quebec would probably have a really easy time separating and then the country is gone.

Oh I see... now it is the NDP that is trying to break up Canada. All along it wasn't the Conservatives it was those damn commies!!!

The PQ and Bloc are both left or centrist left parties... Bouchard was a blip. I don't think Gilles would care one way or the other...

Janey · 05-18-2005, 07:19 AM

Regina?? How could I forget a city named after a song. ooops! I heard on the radio today that a kid was told that Regina was named after the Queen, and he said ' well, then what is penis named after?'

hahaha.. but seriously BigBen, i remember Regina fondly as I drove through it at night enroute from Thunderbay to Calgary!!! (oh gawd I'm sooo funny... go ahead you earned your best shot now )

Seriously...

Why do the conservatives self-destruct? Harper camp leaking Stronach camp budget, stronach camp feuding with Harper??/ Camps? holy shit:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...acodalogin=yes

text:

Scolding was the final straw
Leader called her 'too ambitious'
Feud between two has long simmered

ROBERT BENZIE AND SEAN GORDON
STAFF REPORTERS

The end began with a shouting match in Conservative Leader Stephen Harper's oak-panelled Parliament Hill office.

Harper hauled in Newmarket-Aurora MP Belinda Stronach to his inner sanctum last Thursday to, sources say, "read her the riot act."

"You'll never have a future in this party — you're too ambitious," he told her.

"If we lose the confidence vote I will hold you personally responsible," Harper screamed, furious, insiders say, that she had expressed support for some elements of the Liberal budget.

While history might ultimately show him to be right on all three counts, the confrontation was the culmination of a feud that has been simmering since Stronach, 39, finished second to him in the March 2004 Conservative leadership contest.

"There was no outreach for a year after the leadership contest. There's an old saying in politics: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I don't know if Harper read that chapter," one senior Ontario Conservative strategist said yesterday.

The already-tense relations between Stronach and Harper have deteriorated since Christmas and the bad blood has periodically spilled out publicly.

In March, Stronach was furious at leaks surrounding the financial details of her leadership bid that were seen as a retaliation from Harper's people, who in turn were incensed by what they felt were Stronach-led attempts to disrupt the party's policy convention.

More recently, Stronach, received a dressing-down from fellow caucus members after telling an interviewer that her party should reconsider forcing an early election.

"Leadership politics were taking up too much space; she's turned a lot of people against her," said one MP who was at the meeting.

After her meeting with Harper, sources say Stronach "left shaking" for a flight to Toronto, where she was attending the Woodrow Wilson Awards dinner at the Liberty Grand in Exhibition Place that was honouring her friends former Ontario Progressive Conservative premier Bill Davis and Galen and Hilary Weston.

She told confidantes at the event that she was "very upset" at Harper's comments and the way he and his associates had treated her over the past year.

Former Ontario Liberal premier David Peterson was among those whose counsel she sought.

"She was vulnerable and Peterson was skilful in recognizing that and he moved swiftly," says a Stronach friend who was at the dinner.

"It isn't as if this just developed on Thursday, this had been percolating," Peterson insisted to the Toronto Star yesterday.

"She's a friend of Shelley and mine, I know her kids, she knows my kids, she's been at our place, I've gone skiing with her, we're friends. I'm very fond of her," the former premier said.

"She's very idealistic about the stability of our political institutions. She's not a natural critic; she's not mean-spirited or nasty. She's a constructive person and I think if you put all those things together this was an option that turned out to be realized."

After a heart-to-heart conversation, where she outlined her uneasiness at the Tories siding with the sovereignist Bloc Québécois to defeat the Liberals, Stronach said she called Peterson the following afternoon.

"I said `It was great to see you last night, how are you,' just kind of touching base. And he said `How are you,' and I said `Well, actually I'm reflecting on things,'" she recalled yesterday.

"So as the conversation went on, I said I was seriously considering the options available to me and that included leaving the party. And David said `Look, if you want to serve, perhaps I have another option for you. Would you consider it?' I said it depends what it is, but I'd consider it."

Peterson, who ended 42 years of Progressive Conservative rule in Ontario by signing a pact with Bob Rae's NDP in 1985, plunged himself into the talks.

He immediately called Martin's chief of staff Tim Murphy, a former Ontario Liberal MPP.

"I said this is a possibility here, and what are your thoughts. And of course he was wildly enthusiastic," said Peterson.

"And I said she could be a very important player. She's very capable and so, there were no decisions made, she went back and thought about things, you know it was just back and forth, it was me in the middle."

On Saturday, Stronach was back in Ottawa, at closed-door Conservative election strategy sessions — policed by security guards — at the Delta Hotel with her soon-to-be ex-boyfriend, Tory deputy leader Peter MacKay.

One attendee noted: "She was schmoozing and having lunch with people and sitting in the room with everyone taking notes," and that like other Tory candidates, she left with documents outlining "key messages and campaign strategy." Sources groused that Stronach would be able to deliver a full briefing to the Liberals about the Tory election plan.

But a Stronach spokesman said she only attended the introductory session of the party's "candidate college," and a long-time Tory MP who also sat in on the meetings said there were no sensitive discussions relating to the election platform or strategy.

After leaving the Delta, Stronach flew back to her Aurora estate, where she again called Peterson to set up a meeting.

"I was out at her place for about three hours on Sunday, and she didn't meet Murphy until Monday night. Then she had dinner with the PM," said Peterson, who drove up from his farm in Caledon.

Stronach's chief adviser Mark Entwistle, former Tory prime minister Brian Mulroney's communications director and Canada's one-time ambassador to Cuba, was also in on the top-secret talks.

"The only people that knew were Mark, Tim Murphy, me and my wife," said Peterson, who flew to Ottawa with Stronach to ensure negotiations went smoothly.

All Sunday there were delicate conversations about the role the rookie MP could play in Prime Minister Paul Martin's government.

Considering what was at stake, observers say it is amazing that the talks were kept secret.

"(Peterson) had had discussions with the PMO and Tim Murphy ... and ... we came to a loose arrangement that evening," said Stronach, adding she felt it was important to meet Martin.

"I wanted to look him in the eye and say, `Look, are you serious about this, are you committed to this, do you really want to bring about democratic renewal and reform because that's what I'm passionate about.'"

The following day, Monday, Murphy quietly met with Stronach at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa for some last-minute discussions on her new post as minister of human resources and skills development and minister responsible for democratic renewal.

Then, Murphy, Stronach, Peterson, and Entwistle went to 24 Sussex Drive for dinner at the Prime Minister's official residence.

They dined on venison medallions, toasted pecans and partridgeberry compote, tiède salad of spring turbot composed of local greens, persimmon, grapefruit and home-pickled onions, young cucumbers with coriander, followed by chocolate semi-freddo, mango terrine, Valhrona chocolate mousse and brandy snap.

"It was a lovely dinner," remembered Peterson.

"Belinda and the PM just talked policy. They talked about their ideas for the country; they weren't making deals. It had been done at this point ... it was a very uplifting conversation," he said.

While the gourmet fare was delicious, Stronach, an auto-parts heiress who has grown up dining at some of the world's finest restaurants, said the conversation was even more fortifying.

"(The Prime Minister) gave me his assurance, I looked him in the eye, he gave me his assurance he is serious about democratic renewal, and I felt that this is a way I can make a contribution to Canada," she said.

It was then back to the Chateau Laurier, where Stronach reportedly broke news of her defection to MacKay, who had known her since before she helped broker the deal between him and Harper that merged the Progressive Conservative Party with the Canadian Alliance in late 2003.

Peterson stressed Stronach's decision was "wrenching."

"It's hard and there's obviously the personal consideration with Peter. She's a strong person, and I thought she handled it with complete composure and class," he said.

For her part, Stronach declined to discuss the apparent end of her relationship with MacKay, although the former couple did speak again yesterday morning before her dramatic appearance with Martin at the National Press Theatre across from Parliament Hill.

In six whirlwind days, the neophyte MP had gone from being scolded by Stephen Harper to being feted by Paul Martin.

"The biggest surprise," said Peterson, "was that it was such a surprise."

With Files From Susan Delacourt

05-17-2005, 07:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	HOLY SHIT! That is just too amazing... She was always a left leaning Conservative and probably was much more suited to the PC party of old. Ultimately she was always much more in tune to Martin's right leaning Liberals. /catty I wonder how this will effect her budding relationship with Peter McKay? /end catty __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 07:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I missed it... what did Harper have to say? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 08:29 AM	#13 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	...the dollar just shot up after this news... interesting. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 08:43 AM	#17 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I'm not so sure... if anything the Adscam had already given all sorts of support to the Bloc and PQ. I don't know that this will have any bearing on things... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 09:15 AM	#18 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Inneresting,.. Motives,...let's see: She realizes she can become Prime Minister sooner with the Liberals than the Conservatives. She is a spy for the Conservatives. Her daddy probably owes favors so a senate seat or seats somewhere through the Magma conglomerate were surely part of the process and will be awarded in due time. She is an attention whore and wasn't getting her share with the tories. I bet Peter McKay wishes now that the ass to mouth action was a reality and not just a fantasy. Aside from that I don't think she really matters a whole lot. She is a political rookie still wet behind the ears. Congrads to the Liberal machine for making her first points the same old ,....Canada will be torn apart, the tories are playing with the future of Canada, we need to save Canada,...blah, blah, blah. Thankfully for her there are stupid people in this country that believe such nonsense, and not just a few of them, entire fields of green grass full of them. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

05-17-2005, 07:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sticky	Belinda Stronach defects http://www.canada.com/national/story...c-d6c18c26548c What do you think of this? Do you think this guarantees the Liberals a Win on Thursday? What do you think this does for her Career? Can she be the next Liberal PM after Martin? What do you think about political defection in general? Here is what I think. This of course will certainly help the Liberals one seat out of the hands of the Tories and into the hands of the Liberals. I think that brings the numbers to 151 - Liberals & NDP 152 - Tories and Bloc 3 - Independants Since it looks like two of the independants will be voting for the Budget, it looks like Kilgour will either tie it up or cause the Liberals to win. It is all in the hands of Kilgour. I am not sure if this is bad for her career. She may have a more realistic shot at PM if she is a Liberal. In general I am against defection. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 07:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sticky	Oh, and what about her constituents? Did they vote for her becuase she was who she was or did they vote for her becuase she was a Tory? Did she ask them if she shoudl join the Liberals? Maybe alot of them felt that the Tories should not bring done the government or reject the budget but did they want her to join the Liberals. When they voted for her they gave her the mandate to represent them as a Conservative party member. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 07:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sticky	That is a question that I was thinking of asking but forgot about in my haste to post teh news. Next party leaders after the current ones? McKay and Stronach? __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 07:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sticky	this just bothers me. Never mind the fact that I am anti-Liberal at the moment. I hate party jumping. If there is something wrong with your party, fix it. If I was a Liberal supporter right now I may be happy but in the future I would be thinking - Do we really want this right leaning person as an MP? and possibly as a future party leader? __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 07:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sticky	Harper is answering questions right now http://www.940news.com/ __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 08:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
Powderedmaggot Banned	I think she should have to have the consent of her constituency before pulling shit like that. Since that is unrealistic there should be a byelection in the riding, which amounts to the same thing. It looks like the liberals prolly have it sewed up until a couple independents decide to vote with the Conservatives. I think she may have just killed her political career. No one will want to elect someone who flip flops parties in the middle of a term.

05-17-2005, 08:09 AM	#11 (permalink)
Sticky	He said that he feels that alot of the conservatives would be devestated. He also said that he told his wife a few days ago that he thought Belinda was realising that her leadership ambitions would not be reached with this party. He said that he was happy that this happened now rather then during an election campaign. He said that there is no principals or morals involved in this move and that it is all about ambition to back that up he mentioned the number of times she voted with the rest of the party (just last week) to bring down the government. In general he was very calm and did not get all crazy, hot, or worked up. He answered very calmly. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 08:39 AM	#15 (permalink)
Sticky	What about the following: How do you think it affects the Quebec voters. Do you think that this adds to the Bloc support? I think so. Do you think it has an effect on the Parti Qubecois? I think it may. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-17-2005, 08:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	I think she fits in perfectly with the political party that I want to vote for: The Progressive ConLiberals. We need people like her, plus John Torry and Paul Martin style politics, so that the Business of government can be managed, to satisfy the up to 2 standard deviations of canadian society, with the remainder fringe elements around just to keep them honest....

05-17-2005, 09:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Oh and uh,..the respect factor. Since she has always touted that she is in politics for the people, why didn't she become an independent? Maybe because she is in politics for the power rather than the people. And her constituents? Don't count on them forgeting anytime soon. In time she will realize that she can't get to the top of the heap as fast as she would prefer, and then she'll go running back to daddy and his billions. Excuse my bias. I have never liked her and feel she is more full of shit than a port-o-potty at a construction site. I have no respect for her. She reminds me of a less charismatic, less yappy, less brash Sheila Copps. An intellectual lightweight only shadowed by her naivety __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

05-17-2005, 10:11 AM	#21 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Time will tell... she is still, politically speaking, wet behind the ears. I think it would have been far more respectable for her to become an independant and them go Liberal before the next election. As it is, I think she has done a lot to bolster Martin... No surprise that she came out swinging against Harper... Call me stupid, but I wouldn't trust him to run the country. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 10:55 AM	#23 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The hockey trade analogy is apt... Like I said, time will tell. I haven't had the benefit of seeing the on the street interviews yet... not surprised that many will see her "flip flop" in a negative light... I mean, it was only what, two years ago she was running for leadership of the party she just left? Granted, she was one of those who truly wished that the new party would be more PC than Reform... it must be very uncomfortable for all the PC types in the new party as the power in the party is consolidated in the Reform stronghold... As for your comment that you wouldn't trust any of them... Dickie Dee (Richard D anyone?) aside. Is there anyone who you would like to see running the country (I'm throwing this out to everyone...). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 01:50 PM	#25 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Gilles Duceppe... Lucien Bouchard... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 01:51 PM	#26 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	ME. Me, Baby. Think about that for a second... Ooooh. It feels so good! No wonder I make love to myself 4.742 times per day. I would institute the following: Every friday is now called "Beer and Wings Day" where all federal employees get the day off to drink beer and eat hot wings. Visiting heads of state would have to do 'shots' to prove that their country is worthy of our respect. (I think Russia would kick ass) People would be given a yearly tax benefit if they legally changed their last name to "Strombolopolous" "Fuck man, I don't know, I was wasted" will be written into the Canada Criminal Code as an excuse for a vast majority of crimes. Am I missing anything? You guys would be begging for Martin back after I had power for 1 day! __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-17-2005, 01:59 PM	#27 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	As for your choices... interesting. I always thought Martin would be good at the job but he was hamstrung by Cretien in the end. I say this based on the fact that he was a pretty good finance minister for the past several years. I just don't think I could stomach having Mike Harris in the big seat... While I can respect his ability to do what he said he would do, I just didn't like everything he did and don't think his style would work quite so well on the national and international level. I don't think he is a very good statesman quite frankly. My ideal situation (and I've said it before) would be a Liberal minority with the NDP holding the balance of power (either in a coalition or just a vote by vote basis). I tend to agree that NDP government probably wouldn't be the best thing for Canada (despite the fact that I continue to vote NDP). They are, however, an essential part of our political spectrum and work very well in opposition. I haven't seen much of M. Duceppe but am intrigued by what I have heard. It really is too bad he's on the seperatist kick. Ultimately, I am looking for a centrist party with left leaning sesibilities. One that is both fiscally responsible (notice I didn't say conservative) and socially responsible. I don't know that Martin is the right leader for the Liberals to pull this off and don't see anyone currently that has the leadership chops to pull the Liberals out of this mess they are in... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-17-2005, 03:51 PM	#29 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	And someone else, albeit not a politician but an extraordinary businessman would be Terry Matthews. He co-founded Mitel and then later Newbridge. Self made billionaire, very intelligent and surprisingly down to earth. No power or ego trips. Actually eats at East Side Mario's all the time with his wife. Very nice people. If he became Prime Minister he would redefine the word class. Or just show everyday Canadians what class is since it's been awhile. As for Stronach, if she fucking says one more time the Tories and the Bloc are set to destroy Canada and that is their main goal, I'll scream so loud they'll hear it on Parliament Hill. If she truly believes that, then she is even dumber than the rest of Canadians who believe that too. Note to Belinda. If the Bloc wanted so desperately to seperate, they would have done it by now. Why are they siding with the Tories? Because they think they can get more free money than with the Liberals, hence the cooling down of seperatist, blackmailing rhetoric. Yeeesh. And she wanted to be a party leader. Now that's fucking scary. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

05-17-2005, 07:59 PM	#30 (permalink)
wolfpack0102 Crazy Location: Canada	First thing i find Belinda attractive. If she were to lose her top I think it would do wonders for her. For the task at hand lets face it: Martin offers her a cabinet postion right off the bat. That was what got her into the postion bar none. Single? 39 oooohhh!

05-17-2005, 11:20 PM	#31 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	I'd hit it But I wouldn't vote it Besides, wtf? Don't you need to consult with your voters before you decide to pull a stunt like this? It's pretty obvious she's looking to gain some favors by doing this. Ontario may be a liberal territory but that doesn't mean shit to the people who voted for her to represent them in the conservative party. __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

05-18-2005, 05:48 AM	#33 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Was it just me or was Paul Martin everywhere yesterday? He was in Winnipeg for the Queen, Ottawa for Belinda and then I am sure I saw him in one more place as well... Man, he really gets around. I think Chretien knew the sponsorship scandal was coming and I think he is just loving the fact that Martin is having to face all of the heat... Here is a question... as I see it the next election will go one of two ways: Martin loses and he steps down or Harper loses and he steps down. Who will lead the conservatives? Who will lead the liberals? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-18-2005, 06:28 AM	#34 (permalink)
Sticky	Let's add a few more options 1. Martin wins majority 2. Martin wins a minority but Libs and NDP hold a majority together 3. Martin wins a minority but Tories and Bloc hold a majority together 4. Harper wins a minority but Libs and NDP or Libs and Bloc hold a majority together 5. Unlikely: Harper wins a minority but Tories and NDP hold a mojority together 6. Harper wins all out Who resigns 1. Harper must resign 2. Harper should resign in favour of someone more from the Old Tory side. Martin should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election 3. Martin must resign 4. Martin should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election. Harper should resign to brinrg someone else in before another election 5. Martin must resign 6. Martin is crucified __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-18-2005, 06:32 AM	#35 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You forgot... 7. NDP wins minority 8. NDP wins all... 7 or 8 results in both Harper and Martin resigning... Yeah... that's gonna happen anytime soon. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-18-2005, 06:41 AM	#37 (permalink)
Sticky	I don't think that you would have to worry about them resigning in those cases. Should that actually happen, Gilles would probably come in to the Commons and gun everyone down for blowing the election. In fact Quebec would probably have a really easy time separating and then the country is gone. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-18-2005, 07:19 AM	#40 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	Regina?? How could I forget a city named after a song. ooops! I heard on the radio today that a kid was told that Regina was named after the Queen, and he said ' well, then what is penis named after?' hahaha.. but seriously BigBen, i remember Regina fondly as I drove through it at night enroute from Thunderbay to Calgary!!! (oh gawd I'm sooo funny... go ahead you earned your best shot now ) Seriously... Why do the conservatives self-destruct? Harper camp leaking Stronach camp budget, stronach camp feuding with Harper??/ Camps? holy shit: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...acodalogin=yes text: Scolding was the final straw Leader called her 'too ambitious' Feud between two has long simmered ROBERT BENZIE AND SEAN GORDON STAFF REPORTERS The end began with a shouting match in Conservative Leader Stephen Harper's oak-panelled Parliament Hill office. Harper hauled in Newmarket-Aurora MP Belinda Stronach to his inner sanctum last Thursday to, sources say, "read her the riot act." "You'll never have a future in this party — you're too ambitious," he told her. "If we lose the confidence vote I will hold you personally responsible," Harper screamed, furious, insiders say, that she had expressed support for some elements of the Liberal budget. While history might ultimately show him to be right on all three counts, the confrontation was the culmination of a feud that has been simmering since Stronach, 39, finished second to him in the March 2004 Conservative leadership contest. "There was no outreach for a year after the leadership contest. There's an old saying in politics: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I don't know if Harper read that chapter," one senior Ontario Conservative strategist said yesterday. The already-tense relations between Stronach and Harper have deteriorated since Christmas and the bad blood has periodically spilled out publicly. In March, Stronach was furious at leaks surrounding the financial details of her leadership bid that were seen as a retaliation from Harper's people, who in turn were incensed by what they felt were Stronach-led attempts to disrupt the party's policy convention. More recently, Stronach, received a dressing-down from fellow caucus members after telling an interviewer that her party should reconsider forcing an early election. "Leadership politics were taking up too much space; she's turned a lot of people against her," said one MP who was at the meeting. After her meeting with Harper, sources say Stronach "left shaking" for a flight to Toronto, where she was attending the Woodrow Wilson Awards dinner at the Liberty Grand in Exhibition Place that was honouring her friends former Ontario Progressive Conservative premier Bill Davis and Galen and Hilary Weston. She told confidantes at the event that she was "very upset" at Harper's comments and the way he and his associates had treated her over the past year. Former Ontario Liberal premier David Peterson was among those whose counsel she sought. "She was vulnerable and Peterson was skilful in recognizing that and he moved swiftly," says a Stronach friend who was at the dinner. "It isn't as if this just developed on Thursday, this had been percolating," Peterson insisted to the Toronto Star yesterday. "She's a friend of Shelley and mine, I know her kids, she knows my kids, she's been at our place, I've gone skiing with her, we're friends. I'm very fond of her," the former premier said. "She's very idealistic about the stability of our political institutions. She's not a natural critic; she's not mean-spirited or nasty. She's a constructive person and I think if you put all those things together this was an option that turned out to be realized." After a heart-to-heart conversation, where she outlined her uneasiness at the Tories siding with the sovereignist Bloc Québécois to defeat the Liberals, Stronach said she called Peterson the following afternoon. "I said `It was great to see you last night, how are you,' just kind of touching base. And he said `How are you,' and I said `Well, actually I'm reflecting on things,'" she recalled yesterday. "So as the conversation went on, I said I was seriously considering the options available to me and that included leaving the party. And David said `Look, if you want to serve, perhaps I have another option for you. Would you consider it?' I said it depends what it is, but I'd consider it." Peterson, who ended 42 years of Progressive Conservative rule in Ontario by signing a pact with Bob Rae's NDP in 1985, plunged himself into the talks. He immediately called Martin's chief of staff Tim Murphy, a former Ontario Liberal MPP. "I said this is a possibility here, and what are your thoughts. And of course he was wildly enthusiastic," said Peterson. "And I said she could be a very important player. She's very capable and so, there were no decisions made, she went back and thought about things, you know it was just back and forth, it was me in the middle." On Saturday, Stronach was back in Ottawa, at closed-door Conservative election strategy sessions — policed by security guards — at the Delta Hotel with her soon-to-be ex-boyfriend, Tory deputy leader Peter MacKay. One attendee noted: "She was schmoozing and having lunch with people and sitting in the room with everyone taking notes," and that like other Tory candidates, she left with documents outlining "key messages and campaign strategy." Sources groused that Stronach would be able to deliver a full briefing to the Liberals about the Tory election plan. But a Stronach spokesman said she only attended the introductory session of the party's "candidate college," and a long-time Tory MP who also sat in on the meetings said there were no sensitive discussions relating to the election platform or strategy. After leaving the Delta, Stronach flew back to her Aurora estate, where she again called Peterson to set up a meeting. "I was out at her place for about three hours on Sunday, and she didn't meet Murphy until Monday night. Then she had dinner with the PM," said Peterson, who drove up from his farm in Caledon. Stronach's chief adviser Mark Entwistle, former Tory prime minister Brian Mulroney's communications director and Canada's one-time ambassador to Cuba, was also in on the top-secret talks. "The only people that knew were Mark, Tim Murphy, me and my wife," said Peterson, who flew to Ottawa with Stronach to ensure negotiations went smoothly. All Sunday there were delicate conversations about the role the rookie MP could play in Prime Minister Paul Martin's government. Considering what was at stake, observers say it is amazing that the talks were kept secret. "(Peterson) had had discussions with the PMO and Tim Murphy ... and ... we came to a loose arrangement that evening," said Stronach, adding she felt it was important to meet Martin. "I wanted to look him in the eye and say, `Look, are you serious about this, are you committed to this, do you really want to bring about democratic renewal and reform because that's what I'm passionate about.'" The following day, Monday, Murphy quietly met with Stronach at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa for some last-minute discussions on her new post as minister of human resources and skills development and minister responsible for democratic renewal. Then, Murphy, Stronach, Peterson, and Entwistle went to 24 Sussex Drive for dinner at the Prime Minister's official residence. They dined on venison medallions, toasted pecans and partridgeberry compote, tiède salad of spring turbot composed of local greens, persimmon, grapefruit and home-pickled onions, young cucumbers with coriander, followed by chocolate semi-freddo, mango terrine, Valhrona chocolate mousse and brandy snap. "It was a lovely dinner," remembered Peterson. "Belinda and the PM just talked policy. They talked about their ideas for the country; they weren't making deals. It had been done at this point ... it was a very uplifting conversation," he said. While the gourmet fare was delicious, Stronach, an auto-parts heiress who has grown up dining at some of the world's finest restaurants, said the conversation was even more fortifying. "(The Prime Minister) gave me his assurance, I looked him in the eye, he gave me his assurance he is serious about democratic renewal, and I felt that this is a way I can make a contribution to Canada," she said. It was then back to the Chateau Laurier, where Stronach reportedly broke news of her defection to MacKay, who had known her since before she helped broker the deal between him and Harper that merged the Progressive Conservative Party with the Canadian Alliance in late 2003. Peterson stressed Stronach's decision was "wrenching." "It's hard and there's obviously the personal consideration with Peter. She's a strong person, and I thought she handled it with complete composure and class," he said. For her part, Stronach declined to discuss the apparent end of her relationship with MacKay, although the former couple did speak again yesterday morning before her dramatic appearance with Martin at the National Press Theatre across from Parliament Hill. In six whirlwind days, the neophyte MP had gone from being scolded by Stephen Harper to being feted by Paul Martin. "The biggest surprise," said Peterson, "was that it was such a surprise." With Files From Susan Delacourt