Ace_O_Spades

I have a concern.

I support same-sex marriage. We currently have a minority government which is going to put forward same-sex marriage legislation next week, with admittedly shaky support from its own MP's.. Hell, even Martin's own Caucas.

If the Conservatives can maintain solidarity and all vote against this (perhaps recruiting the bloc?) Especially if it is put forward as a free vote... With many Liberal MP's openly voicing their disapproval on the subject, the Government might be forced to call an election if the Libs lose.

This is a decidedly Canadian issue, so I put it in the appropriate forum.

What do you all think?

I personally think we're going to see an election very soon.

__________________
Feh.

JJRousseau

AOS, glad to see you raise this issue. I think the public as a whole is more tolerant on this issue than our elected representatives. I wonder if there will be a bit of backlash against the No-voters. If so, that might scare them off forcing an election.

Charlatan

I really don't this issue should be permitted to go to a free vote in the house. The Charter of Rights is very clear on this issue.

I am worried that it won't pass. I was listening to "As it Happens" on CBC Radio last night and the Conservative Minister for London was on saying how many people are against this... specifically the alteration of the definition of Marriage.

When I try to understand this from the point of view of people who are against, I literally cannot understand their position. It just doesn't make sense.

What are they losing by letting this happen? Are any of their rights being taken away? Does this hurt anyone?

No. No. And no.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

vox_rox

Here is the crux of th ewhole argument. Their opinion is not based on science, or knowledge or even morality. It is based on the inbility to fathom fundemental change in social structure. Society is one of the most complex and fundementally unchanging structures that we know, and as populations increase, the ability to change that structure is inversly proportional.

How long did it take for women to get the vote? That is the perfect example. But we are in an interesting situation right now where we have a human rights ruling by the Supreme Court that says discrimination against same-sex couples in marriage laws are contrary to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

So, a free vote in parliament seems moot. Nothwithstanding Clause? Not a chance, it would be the end of any MP who voted in favour, with the possible exception of the redneck MP from redbeck ridings in Alberta (like mine for instance )

So, despite the aruements, same-sex marraige is ALREADY protected, now the legislation simply needs to be amended. No new legislation need be introduced. Paul Martin may think this is a sticky situation, but he better do this the right way, and he better do it soon.

As for an election, if there is one it will be Harper's fault. He is such a fucked-up useless tool I can't beleive anyone allows him to talk in public, never mind lead a political party. Maybe there will be a non-confidence vote, and an election will follow, and the Conservatives will lose all but two seats. It happened before, why not again?

Dare to Dream...

Peace,

Pierre

__________________
---
There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
---

Ace_O_Spades

vox you seem pretty optimistic! I guess I'm just a lot more of a pessemist. I really don't want the C's in office... We'll be no better than the USA.

__________________
Feh.

Yakk

I actually want a NDP-Conservative minority government. =p~

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

vox_rox

Opps, I may not have made myself clear. I do not like the grits or the tories, so don't paint me either of those colours. I think the NDP have some good ideas, especially when it comes to green transportation and energy made in Canada for Canadians, but they may have a tough time trying to organize a governement seeing as they never have before.

So, maybe the Marxist-Leninists? Hmm, that'll get the U.S. mobilized against us in a hurry. The Green Party? Again, interesting concept, but a pretty thin platform.

Does anybody rememeber the Rhinoceros Party? I thought they were making a comeback, but I didn't see them last election. Hmm...

Peace,

Pierre

ps. Ace - I am pretty optimistic beacuse when I'm not, and I really think about screwed up some top-down decicions really are, I just want to slit my wrists. Wear those rose-coloured glasses and keep smiling!

__________________
---
There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
---

Fiver

I like the argument that if you want to protect the sanctity of marraige, outlaw divorce.

JJRousseau

vox, welcome to libertarian country! Population: me.

OFKU0

Yup. One day 100 years from now, people will be astonished at the waste of time spent on deciding who and who shouldn't be treated equally and fairly as citizens of Canada.

I too listened to a CBC show some time back, might have been Rex Murphy and just couldn't believe the people phoning in venting their frustrations at gays and gay marriage. But then again, these are the folks who believe in Chicken Little and more appropriately, whatever nonsense someone tells them because they are too fucking stupid to think for themselves.

And what is most priceless about these folks is that they actually believe their rights are being eroded, that somehow people are against them. Like my mother used to say,..blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.

As for Martin and Harper and the rest. How pathetic, apathetic, or just plain disinterested have Canadians become that this is the best we can do. Well you get what you pay for, or get when 60% of the population doesn't give a shit anymore, at least not to vote. I won't be critical though. If these idiots Martin and Harper have an election or referendum on gay marriage, I will become like the rest, and never set foot in a polling station again. And I have voted in every municipal, provincial and federal election for 22 years, except when my car broke down, couldn't get to the polling station and Bob Rae became premier of Ontario.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

JJRousseau

As much as I agree with the sentiment in this thread, I read an interesting counterpoint last night. The article (an editorial from an Alberta paper) wasn't arguing against gay marriage but presented the concerns of religious people toward this issue. It noted that although the pending legislation would include protection for churches against having to perform gay marriages, there were already cases before the courts where the rights of a gay person not to be discriminated against had trumped the rights of religious freedom.

It cited a case in Toronto where a Christian stationary company had been found guilty of discrimination for not taking the business of a gay and lesbian organization, and of a lesbian couple in BC who had filed discrimination against a Catholic organization (KofC) in BC for not allowing them the use of their banquet hall.

Now I realize that these cases are a long way from requiring a religion to perform a marriage but I can better understand their concern. And it pisses me off that some people purposely rub salt in the wounds.

Antikarma

WTF, we could bring back Stockwell Day for you if you like. No really, I live in his riding, any excuse to get him out of town more is fine by me...

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Ace_O_Spades

If that's all they're angry about I pity them... I really do.

__________________
Feh.

vox_rox

Yes, small minds, bigs mouths, and lacking the all-important self-realization that they can think for themselves. Truly, if any creature onthis planet is worthy of pity, it is this group.

Peace,

Pierre

__________________
---
There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
---

james t kirk

First off, let me state that I am all for Gay marriage. If 2 people want to get married, knock yourselves out. I don't care if you are gay, bi, straight, or whatever.

But it should not be the reason to call an election.

If my ears hear right, it's Martin threatening to call an election over the issue.

What a collosal waste of taxpayer'sy money. We just had and election and need another one like a hole in the head.

Whoever forces an election based on gay marriage one way or another can be assured of one thing.

I won't vote for you. If Martin forces an election because he's wants some sort of legacy other than a finance minister who became Prime Minister then he's got another thing coming.

If Harper creates a situation where he brings down the government over this, then the hell with him.

This is not a burning issue in my eyes. It can wait another couple of years. They haven't stopped doing gay weddings in Toronto, I doubt they will, and the genie is out of the bottle anyways.

The whole arguement seems academic to me.

vox_rox

Um, a recent census may have included me well, but StatsCan is still crunching the number(s). It could be two, or, My GAWD, it could be ten times that!

Sadly, no elected officials answered the survey, I think it may have been a mild case of illiteracy. A shame really. The House of Commons is a terrible thing to waste.

Peace,

Pierre

__________________
---
There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
---

happyman

The 2 women in BC are suing the Knights of Columbus because they said that because they had already signed a contract and paid a deposit, the KofC had no right to turn them down afterwards. They're saying that they had paid for decorations, invitations, etc., all aimed at using that hall as the place for the wedding reception. I agree that once a contract is signed and a deposit is made, it shouldnt be revoked, but how dumb are these women not to know it was a religious organization? There's signs, crosses and religious pics all over the property.

Charlatan

I didn't know they were a religious organization... I thought they were like the Lions Club or the Rotary Club...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ace_O_Spades

I need clarification on a few things

They signed a contract with KofC, put down a deposit, then were denied the service afterwards?

That's grounds for a legal suit if I've ever heard one... Correct me if I made any mistakes.

__________________
Feh.

happyman

Upon further review, i may have been mistaken about the contract, but they did pay a deposit for the venue. The KofC offered to refund the money, and pay for the invitations as well.

Ace_O_Spades

See.... this is the information which would have helped!

Now the gay couple just look like a couple of knobs

__________________
Feh.