Swirlie

Well... something I have been trying to figure out for a while.

I don't mean this post to be argumentative, so I would appreciate posters replying with civility.

Ok... here's the question.

I read a lot of forums... and inevitably, there is always an Canadian/American pissing match - usually when those from Canada start to stick up for themselves. Usually, in the end, we get labelled as "jealous" of America, or some iteration thereof.

(Okay... so that part was really more of a general statement... HERE's my question)

Are we as Canadians becoming increasingly proud of where we are from? Are we losing the "nice guy" attitude and starting to stand up for oursleves? Is it "OK" for us to become proud, chest-thumping Canadians? AND... and this is a big AND (hence the capitals).. why is it OK for Americans to be so damn proud of their nation (*and that's a GOOD THING people) but not so much for we Canadians?

I await your repsonses...

Again. PLEASE maintain your civility... I don't want to have to look sternly at you!

Willravel

Some of the more liberal United Staters are jelous of Canada. I don't know about beating chests, but I don't have a problem with people being proud of where they come from. I hope my post was civil enough.

Redlemon

I don't have anything particularly intelligent to add to this discussion, so instead, I'll link to Dino-Mike's myspace page; select "Canadian Immigrant" from his playlist and listen. He's proud.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

james t kirk

I've always been very proud to be Canadian.

Every time I take a road trip to the USA (only because it's the only foreign country you can drive to), the feeling that I get coming into the Canadian boarder is indescribable. My eyes start to sting, I can't wait to cross that imaginary yet very real line. I see the lions on the bridge, the coat of arms, the flags and I get all proud and sentimental.

We have carved a great nation out of a inhospitable piece of geography. Massive in its distances, unforgiving climate, varied in culture , and yet incredibly beautiful. In some ways we have taken the best of the British and European system, the best of the American system, and combined it all and yet come up with our own unique way. We have managed to stay independent of the elephant, we have kept our country together by hook or by crook when so many had predicted or even fought for its demise. No small feat of accomplishment.

Demeter

We are good people, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Of course I'm proud to be Canadian, damn proud!

And on a further note, I've felt the need to defend my country in debates on forums as well. Usuallly the people I'm arguing with are stubborn about a lot of things, have never been to Canada, and/or have strange ideas about what goes on here.

__________________

I am not bound to please thee with my answers.
William Shakespeare

highthief

I find that occurs when people who are on the far right of US politics start getting a little insecure about "socialist" Canada sitting right on their doorstep. It makes 'em a little uncomfortable and they start acting out. we scare them a little with our "worker's paradise".

(5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...)

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Ustwo

Nah we just get annoyed when our socialists try to tell us how great your god-awful overpriced and underfunded medical system is.

Otherwise the only time Canada is in the news is when one of your left wing politicians tries to score points with their voters by saying something negative about GWB or the US in general.

Heh of course in the Midwest you will hear people talking about 'the Canadians' all the time, in a negative way, but you should know they aren't talking about Canadians. (And I have to wonder how many fights have been started that way)

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

highthief

Right on cue, the poster-boy for American insecurity about the evils of Canada!

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Ustwo

You could do better eh?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Leto

Who are they talking about? It's kind of a limited adjective.


ahem, on to more constructive discourse:

JTK, my brother drove from Vancouver to Mexico, then Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica & Panama. At Panama City, he was advised to not go any further, as gringos were targets in the 'no man's land ' south of there.

My feeling upon return to home are similar to yours. I have worked extensively in the US (Pittsburgh, Teaneck NJ) and have always welcomed the comfortable feeling of viewing Toronto from the sky upon my return. Also, driving across the boarder from Blaine Wash, into White Rock BC, always gets my heart pumping, as the Peace Arch goes by, and I find smooth roads with gardened boulevards replacing the streets of the US behind.

Sometimes it seems like we are overtaxed, and underutilized ( to speak to a barbed point brought up earlier) but we are a big nation of only 30 mill (and how many of us are actually tax payers? ) people and doing a damn good job. I admit there's lots of room for improvement, but as a nation, we will work it out regardless of the Ann Coulter clones out there.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Ustwo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur

"Canadian" & "Canada"
(U.S.) A Mexican or an African-American. Used as "code speech" by Anglos when discussing border problems, crime, illegal immigration, drug trafficking and when trying to conceal discussions of Mexico, Mexicans, or African Americans. Also used by Victoria when talking about people from New South Wales.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Leto

well, what do you know? that just comes right out of left field (to use an old hockey term.. lol. Actually the first baseball game was played in 1838 in Beachville Ontario, another source of Canadian pride)

Who would have thought? Thanks UStwo..

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

james t kirk

Like Harvard University....

http://www.cha.harvard.edu/news/pres...h_survey.shtml

Ustwo

First it wasn't a Harvard University study (look again) secondly if you can't see whats wrong with that study you have never worked in a hospital

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Swirlie

I guess I'll add my 2 cents here now as I started the thread...

I am glad Canada (and we as Canadians) are starting to stand up for oursleves and pound our chests a little bit.

I always got (get?) tired of the USA proclaiming themsleves the best nation in the world. I also always had a problem with (the vocal minority) standing up and berating citizens of any other country who "dared" question them on their superiority.

What I can never figure out is every time I meet an American - they are pretty much the same as any Canadian I meet. Polite, down to earth folks who take the time to chew the fat and are very civil. None of the loud, obnoxiousness that is prevalent on the news, on the internet (God forbid!) and in the stereotypes that seem to be prevalent around the world. How come I never get to actually meet these people?

On the other hand - I refuse to put up with the stereotype of the meek and humble Canadian. I will defend to the death that Canada is as great a country as the USA - and in my mind, better (mostly because of the social policies, non-war-mongering society, and general acceptance (for the most part) of those that are "different"). Then again, I'm a flag waving SOB frm way back..

I don't know. I'm PROUD as hell to be Canadian. And maybe it's the constant exposure to the US media and mindset, but I will stand up LOUD and PROUD and beat my chest with civic pride at every opportunity. If *some* of our American brethren can't accept that, then I guess... I'll have to apologize for waving my flag in their face - but I'm not about to stop.

Ustwo

I think what you need to understand, and why everyone 'likes' Canada, is because internationally Canada is like that nice meek librarian in a sweater vest and thick rimmed glasses.

Very nice, very polite, very helpful, and in no way a threat to anyone. Canada can't stick up for itself outside of Canada, it can't stop anyone from doing 'bad' things, its not a world power of any degree. Canada opted out of this, of its own free will, after WWII. If the US wasn't so powerful you would never have been able to just 'opt out' of the world stage. Its not that Canada isn’t ‘war mongering’ its now almost incapable of going to war.

So when Canadians thump their chest at how great they are, its bound to get some resentment from those in the US who know what Canada could do but instead decided to no longer be, letting us foot the full bill.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

james t kirk

Oh brother.

The USA is like the big 6'-8" 286 pound football player from High School who is about as sharp as a bowling ball, who has relied on his brawn and never really made it in the world. He's recently turned 48 and is still working unloading trucks at the local Safeway but keeps talking about his glory days playing defensive end back at George Washington High School and he think's he's got it so good because by god, he's American, and we're Number 1.

With a population of 31 million people, Canadians are not about to throw our weight around the world, nor do we desire to. The thing about you and Americans like you is you think that we want to, or suffer from some sort of penis envy of the USA. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The thing that drives Americans crazy about Canadians is that we are more like you than not, yet we have absolutely no desire in the world to join you and in fact, we consider ourselves superior to you in just about every way. We just let you think what you want because we know that the sun is setting on the American Empire. Slowly but surely. Slowly but surely.

krwlz

Haha, it amazes me that both sides see the others so differantly. American Empire? Well, unless that means sea to shining sea, I don't know what empire you're talking about.

The biggest source of the resentment from my opinion, is we probably know very little, if at all about canada. As a whole that is. I mean, they are never in the news, they are not a world power, and they never do anything disagreeable. Kind of like the book nerd at school. Real nice kid, best intentions at heart, polite, courteous, the teachers best student.

But we know nothing about him, and because of that, and the fact that he's toothless, the rest of us pick on him. We can all agree that's wrong, but it happens none the less.

Haha, imagine the differance in WWII if the japs had tried to roll through canada rather than pearl harbor. And roll they would have.

That said, I'm sure Canada is a great place to live. But I'm also sure the Culture isn't much differant than where I'm from.

james t kirk

"Jap" is actually a derogatory term.

Never the less, did ya ever consider that the Japanese thought about rolling through Canada, but reconsidered and went for the easier option of attacking Pearl Harbour?

See, Canada was in on WW2 in September of 39, not December of 1941.

And we were in on WW1 in the beginning, not 3 months before it ended.

The Japanese knew the easiest route.

Willravel

The US has 702 military bases in 132 different countries. And those are only the public ones. If there was an empire today, we'd be it.

/end threadjack

Gilda

Just so that you know, "jap" is considered a slur, or at the very least offensive slang, for Japanese people, and is best avoided in polite speech.

Gilda

Ace_O_Spades

This whole thread just reeks of ignorance and hate, stereotypes and fallacious conjecture. I think it needs this, so that future posts can cut through the bullshit and we can maybe have an actual conversation about why our two countries seem to hate each other so much.


-----

Our countries are strikingly similar. The vast majority of Canadian resentment of the USA stems from their perceived "bullying" of Canada in international issues. Canadians see the USA throwing their weight around and not giving Canadians the credit/input into the situations that they feel would be fitting of such close trade partners.

Canadians see the USA ignoring trade rulings they don't like, and bending/breaking the existing agreements.

Generally, Canadians feel that since we give you so much (Water, electricity, oil) we should at least have a voice heard when it comes to hammering out deals which will be beneficial for both parties... such equality is lacking.

It has gotten to the point that any Canadian official/politician which is perceived to be too friendly to the USA is going to be hurt in the polls.

Canadians don't believe they need a superior army because Canadians would rather just not piss anyone off. We'd rather keep a small but deployable army to aid in humanitarian and peacekeeping initiatives. It shouldn't be a slight on us that we don't feel spending billions and billions of dollars a year on arms is a good idea.

A solution? Become less reliant on the USA. Put money into our manufacturing sector and build up/upgrade our capacity to refine our raw materials. We ship vast quantities of raw goods to the United States so that they can be refined, packaged, and sold back to Canadians at a premium.

Another solution? Americans:

STOP thinking about us as the little weak kid up top. As stated, we don't feel we need a vastly superior army. ALSO, GET THIS:

We don't feel we need your constant supervision/protection

So get this:

Stop throwing it in our faces that you're "protecting us". You're not protecting us from shit.

The rest of the world has our back... if only Harper would stop pissing off the middle east.

__________________
Feh.

krwlz

Apologies for the slur. I just didn't think about it.

Being involved in the war, and being a potentially major player in the war was two differant things. And yes... Pearl Harbor was easy at first, but it didn't get them much but an enraged massive country full of resources hounding their asses.

Biggest point in my post however, was that primarily, its the ignorance that multiplies normal country pride, into ethnocentrism.

And a small army can be beneficial. After all, if no one in the entire world percieves you as a threat, then why would they bother attacking you?

And yea... The rest of the world had frances back too. As the great Robin Williams put it... France: "Fuck you Americans! Haha, we are better than you... Oh shit,... The Germans are comming. Americans!! We love you!"

Willravel

I wonder if your image is also relative. We take pisses in EVERYONE'S backyard, and we don't apologize for it. We do it repeatedly, while the UK gives us an awkward shoulder rub. Canada gets along well with people, has an active social life and your parents are proud of you. Next to us, you look like saints.

krwlz

Haha, aint that the truth. One particular US strategy I always loved (and was ashamed of)...

Want some third world country to support your politics? Go in there as the generous helping hand, get em all back on their feet, support democratic elections, get an official we like elected, and then hold the debt over their heads.

Ace_O_Spades

There really needs to be an utterly disgusted/ashamed emoticon that is just sullenly shaking it's head.

__________________
Feh.

Ustwo

And who has the rest of the free worlds back? Hell you are worried about Harper 'pissing off' the middle east, you are asking to stay in your shell, protected by everyone else. I mean heaven forbid you say something that might be offensive to someone.

WWI the US was out of the European loop, end result it cost us 110k dead in service.

We tried to maintain this until WWII, end result, it cost us 400k dead in service.

You know we learned a lesson there, we dont' save any lives by staying out of peoples back yards when they are getting ready to cause trouble. It would be nice from some help from the North instead of kind words for once, but don't get pissy that no one listens to you internationally.

One of the nice side effects of socialism (for the US) is it makes nations too poor for war. As more and more programs and less and less productivity sap a nations wealth there is no money for war. Currently there would be no chance of another WWII in Europe unless one of the major nations had something akin to a full revolution. Too many people expect their hand outs and they vote. Unfortunetly the threats are not just from Europe or the USSR anymore, but from the Mid East and next China, and when it comes I hope we, as in Europe, the US AND Canada are ready for it. If Europe and Canada were strong NOW then such a major conflict wouldn't happen at all, but I think they are all too busy being resentful of the US to figure out where their real enemies are.

Well lets hope I'm wrong, after all everyones got Canada's back eh Ace?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Leto

Librarian? nerdy school kid?

hmmph. Telling isn't it? I don't think our veterans would rest easy with that assessment. Nor our pioneering politcal leadership and public volunteers.

At any rate, I kind of like the librarian look....

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Ace_O_Spades

Ustwo, what do you have against peace?

oh... and isn't CANADA the country you guys want to finish mopping up that little side-agenda you started in Afghanistan?

Canada just picks its fights, rather than charging headlong into every possible conflict under the guise of pre-emptive action.

__________________
Feh.

krwlz

Is the disgust with the method? Or with my opinion that it exists? because if it's with the method, I totally agree.

And hey... If you want to rule the world, you gotta start somewhere!

rmarshall

I was gonna post but I see that it is time for some Canadian beer. Cheers!

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

Ace_O_Spades

I dig your style

I'm gonna join you

__________________
Feh.

Leto

you know what? let me pull up a chair:

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Swirlie

Beer all around!

Almost feel like I am threadjacking my own post herem but...

I'm starting to worry that the wanton abandon for war that seems to be prevalent from the US Administration these days is starting to carry over to other countries.

Why do I worry? Because I keep seeing in my minds eye that, at some point, someone other than the US with a rather large war machine is going to get involved... and when they get involved... we ALL get involved.

I dunno... The words Hell and handbasket keep rotating through my brain these days... kinda scary.

Leto

When we took history in high school, we all looked back on the start of WWI with a kind of superior, paternizing attitude. Almost a thought to how idiotic people/nations were back then that situations could spiral out of control and escalate so rapidly.

Similar to the appeasement attitude of the years coming up to WW2. Now I echo your sentiments Swirlie. I'm afraid that we're going to the same dance again.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Baraka_Guru

What I found particularly amazing is that this thread, despite its potential, was quickly reduced to predictable comparisons: military and beer. (I think they're even connected, no?) Not yet have we seen a discussion spring up that talks about something related to actual cultural comparisons, which are quite profound.

If you think there are many similarities between Americans and Canadians, you need to read Michael Adams' "Fire and Ice"... there's even a survey you can participate in:
http://fireandice.environics.net/sur...asp?surveyID=1

In addition to my quick obervation, I would like to add that for a while now, I've been feeling increasingly weary of the idea of Nationalism. Despite what most people think are the causes of the world's problems, fervent Nationalism is not only a cause but also a perpetuator of many problems. "Us vs. Them" is not only problematic on many levels, it is often unethical... anyone wanting to discuss this further, I am more than willing.

The chest-beating that we see is nothing new, how long ago was it that Roman citizens were doing the same thing in the general direction of those inferior Carthaginians?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

I took the survey that Baraka_Guru posted and it got me thinking of how unimportant a sense of belonging to my country really is and it's becoming increasingly less important.

I do believe that the physical idea of a nation is important in order to be able to govern and organize services, but I find the sentiment of nationalism harmful. It's only of use when you're travelling and in need of some familiarity. In that case it's great to hook up with other Canadians in an unfamiliar land.

I witnessed an argument between two friends last week. Here it is in a nutshell:

A: "I don't find Canadians to have as much of a political consciousness as people I meet from other countries."

B: "What's your basis for saying this...who are you talking to that gives you this opinion?"

A: "All the people at my job. They're all from other countries."

B: "Yeah, BUT THEY LIVE HERE!!!"

I think that was a beautiful summary of what the Canadian identity is. It's almost as if we arrive at an identity through a non-identity.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Charlatan

Baraka_Guru... I have read Fire and Ice and found the stats in that book surprising. I knew there were differences between Canadians and Americans but it was startling to discover how wide those differences are.

I have struggled with "nationalism" and the ethnocentrism it breeds. On one hand it am proud of the accomplishments of our nation. On the other hand the danger of becoming too ethnocentric, too emotionally attached to a nation can be a tinderbox.

The key (as always ) is balance between the two.

My biggest concern about nationalism has little to do with the US. It has more to do with national cohesiveness. I am a big supported of increased immigration as a form of nation building but see that there is a problem when ethnicities fail to respect the commonalities and principles of the nation.

What I am trying to get at is that while I do not want a "melting pot", where all previous nationality is erased in favour of the mythology of the new nation, I also don't want immigrants to behave like itinerant workers. If you are going to immigrate you should come with the understanding that you are joining something larger. You should come respecting the local laws an customs (again... this is not to say that I want anything approaching full assimilation, rather what is needed is balance between the two worlds).

As I have seen it, these issues tend to dissipate with the arrival of the next generation. The childern of immigrants are the goal of any nation attempting to build itself through immigration.

That is an important thing to remember.



As for the question of the US vs. Canada and the whole chest thumping business... something that is often overlooked but is implicit in any discussion of this relationship is the prevalence of US media in Canada. Canada sits on the boarder of the world's largest cultural exporter (films, television, news media, magazines, literature, music, etc.). US is content is not only licensed by our national media conglomerates to air on Canada television or exhibit in our theatres, for example but in the case of radio and television can be directly received over the air from the source.

As a nation of 31 million (or so) it is econmomically difficult to compete with what can be produced on basis of a population of 300 million. Canada is one of the few nations in the world that must contend with this. Most other nations are isolated and insulated from one other culture by way of language and geography (it is interesting to note that in French Canada this issue is largely absent due to language barrier and a strong history of cultural seperation).

This is further exacerbated by the incredible insularity of the US. It is a big place with a lot going on within its borders and many do not take the time or effort to look beyond those borders (G W Bush was famous for NOT having travelled beyond the US borders - execpt maybe on trip to Mexico - before he was elected and being very poorly versed on foreign policy). Many Americans can't even find Canada on a map let alone tell you who the leader of the nation is.

It galls many of us in Canada (and much of the rest of the world) that America can posit itself as the great power of the world and yet remains so incredibly insular.

Of course there are many individuals in the US that are the exception to this rule. I am painting with a very large brush.


In the end, I am proud of Canada and what its people have accomplished. I see this same pride when I travel (National Day is on Wednesday in Singapore - if you want to see a nation that is proud of itself come to Singapore, what they have done in 41 years of existence is truly impressive -- Singaporeans have much of which to be proud).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

This needs a new thread. I invite you to kick it off, aberkok.



I think this is where many of the problems lie--not so much in what is being created as how it is distributed. Regardless of the quality of cultural products being generated, the U.S. products have dominance mainly because of the amount of resources available. Just think of book publishing alone: there is nothing short of a glut of titles being produced in the U.S. Are they experiencing a golden age of literature? I think it was Plato who theorized the cycle of devaluing aesthetics in literature and attributed them to golden, silver, bronze, and iron. I think he forgot one "substance": information. So, wouldn't you know that even Plato couldn't predict the information age of "literature" that is Dan-Browning on right now?

Can we apply the information age to the other aspects of culture: film, television, new media, magazines, visual arts, etc.? Should Americans think about this before expressing their pride? Or is their pride exclusive to their support for their military industrial complex (hense the "chest-thumping")?

When we think of the failure of the most powerful empire in history, we think of the Roman Empire. When we think of Rome, do we think of art? Not likely; this is because they ripped off the ancient Greeks (and poorly)--and their military/political accomplishments were unprecedented. What do you think the ancient Romans were most proud of?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

The fact that we think about the Romans and the Greeks has more to do with the legacy of what they left behind than what they actually thought of themselves.

Aside from the roads, architecture and other physical reminders, the Romans and the Greeks had solid memes... they were excellent at marketing themselves to history.

The US and their media industry are nothing if not very, very good at marketing "the American way". Ask most immigrants where they got their first taste of the new world and it I'll bet you it was either in the movie theatre or on TV.

No other nation exports it's culture on the same scale and with such a wide reach.

Is it any wonder "they" hate America? They've had to watch far too much garbage...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke