LOST: Season 6 (Beware Spoilers Inside) - Page 5 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Redlemon · 05-24-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

was it? or was it just minutes after the crash he was wandering the jungle?

Couldn't be; different clothes. In Pilot, he was wearing a suit. In The End, he was in casual clothes.

The_Jazz · 05-24-2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Couldn't be; different clothes. In Pilot, he was wearing a suit. In The End, he was in casual clothes.

Not to mention he'd been stabbed.

Zeraph · 05-24-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Then again, maybe that's what Hurley and Ben protected the island from post-show.

Naw we saw Jack out of it and alive/dieing as he looked up at the plane.

The_Jazz · 05-24-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Naw we saw Jack out of it and alive/dieing as he looked up at the plane.

But we saw the MiB's body in Season 1 (in the cave with his mom's). Was he dead when he floated into the cave? Or was he still alive? There were at least 2 other bodies in that cave. Perhaps there's always a smoke monster.

Or not.

Jove · 05-24-2010, 11:14 AM

I sort of understand the series finale after numerous explanations here and various other articles explanation. I would like to know what happened to Jack's son after the party? Did he vanish or did he never exist?

The_Jazz · 05-24-2010, 11:21 AM

I don't think he ever existed. Once Locke became "enlightened", he insisted that Jack didn't have a son while in the recovery room.

ObieX · 05-24-2010, 11:32 AM

In one of the early episodes i think it showed that Jack's wife was pregnant(?). I'm thinking Jack conjured up his son in the afterlife to experience what i would have been like to have a son before moving on.

Lasereth · 05-24-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

In one of the early episodes i think it showed that Jack's wife was pregnant(?). I'm thinking Jack conjured up his son in the afterlife to experience what i would have been like to have a son before moving on.

This

Frosstbyte · 05-24-2010, 02:00 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that Jack HAD to become the smoke monster, rather that I had a brief moment of "How are they going to fuck with us now?" in which Jack did become the smoke monster, the explosives that Whidmore brought took down the plane just as it was leaving and that the church full of happy people went kaboom, followed by LOST and the music. I'm not saying it would've been a better ending or anything (far from it), just that after all the endless twists in the show-and in particular in the season finales-the very paranoid corner of my brain was desperately trying to figure out what the tragic twist would be here, so I'd be a bit more prepared for it. Though I revel in it, I'm still a little shocked that Lost had, for most intents and purposes, a happy ending.

As far as genres go, I think Lost never full committed to one, and it certainly never attempted to be full of answers and explanations hard sci-fi. It happened to attract a lot of fans of hard sci-fi who enjoy fiction that really breaks down how plot elements "work" at least within the confines of a given fictional universe, but I don't think we were ever given any reason to believe that Lost would fill in all those holes. The only answer I really remember being promised us is that of what happened to the survivors, and we got that answer pretty directly.

Please add me to the ever-growing group of people who would happily watch "Hurley and Ben Protect the Island: Electric Boogaloo."

Eilonwy · 05-24-2010, 03:51 PM

I liked it. I can't pretend I didn't want some answers about the island, but I didn't expect them.

The main problems the people I know that didn't like the finale had were 1) lack of answers and 2) too much of the finale took place in the 'alternate universe' and not enough on the island. I think they just wanted more action and less drama, but as was said above, the series was about the relationships between the people, so this was a good ending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

B) I waited through an hour of Jimmy Kimmel's awkward finale special show for alternate endings, and I got...jokes? Goddamit! That's an hour of my life I'll never get back.

Yes, now this pissed me off.

Zeraph · 05-24-2010, 04:13 PM

Yeah, Kimmel can go fuck an enraged polar bear.

Redjake · 05-24-2010, 04:33 PM

Best finale ever. I literally don't think I could have ever come up with a better ending. So perfect for a perfect series. I am sad it's gone, though.

warrrreagl · 05-24-2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

I waited through an hour of Jimmy Kimmel's awkward finale special show for alternate endings, and I got...jokes?

Dude. Jimmy Kimmel...

How can you tune into a Jimmy Kimmel show and have the nerve to act surprised at jokes?

Reese · 05-24-2010, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jove

I sort of understand the series finale after numerous explanations here and various other articles explanation. I would like to know what happened to Jack's son after the party? Did he vanish or did he never exist?

I think the Alternate reality(afterlife) was more of a way for the people to experience what their life would had been if Jacob hadn't interfered.

---------- Post added at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:59 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

Dude. Jimmy Kimmel...

How can you tune into a Jimmy Kimmel show and have the nerve to act surprised at jokes?

Seriously, Didn't you see the Connect 4 million game he did? Youtube it..

flat5 · 05-25-2010, 04:13 AM

About the ending, I think Mike Hale got it right.

Television - No Longer ‘Lost,’ but Fans Are Still Searching - NYTimes.com

warrrreagl · 05-25-2010, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat5

About the ending, I think Mike Hale got it right.

Television - No Longer ‘Lost,’ but Fans Are Still Searching - NYTimes.com

Cool article, and great assessment. One of the premises the ending seemed to push (and which seems to infuriate everyone) is that in the end, the only things that truly matter are the relationships. Technology, work, hidden meanings, religion, conflict, catharsis - all of those things pale when compared to the fundamental righteousness of relationships. And the LOST series seemed to tell us that at the end.

Jove · 05-25-2010, 06:47 AM

Is anyone else having post Lost blues? I am now having flash backs/flash forwards and moving side ways. WE HAVE TO GO BACK!

Leto · 05-25-2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat5

About the ending, I think Mike Hale got it right.

Television - No Longer ‘Lost,’ but Fans Are Still Searching - NYTimes.com

I agree as well. Good article. I'm not really feeling the loss of Lost at this point, being a casually interested watcher. The one thing that I didn't get: What was the point of the island?

Redlemon · 05-25-2010, 10:35 AM

OK, here's the spoiler to end all spoilers. This is purportedly written by one of LOST's writers. I believe it.

Quote:

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

Someone from Bad Robot's take on the Finale | LOST Media Mentions

Wow. This really brings everything together for me.

Eilonwy · 05-25-2010, 03:36 PM

Wow, thanks for posting that. I really like that explanation! It does make the things I saw as pointless seem less so, and it's a good reasoning for those absent at the church.

Frosstbyte · 05-25-2010, 08:55 PM

Great find and great read, Redlemon. Thanks very much for posting it.

The_Jazz · 05-26-2010, 05:49 AM

Redlemon, my wife asked me to thank you for that article, and I will add mine as well. We both enjoyed it immensely.

Cynthetiq · 05-26-2010, 06:09 AM

the more i think about it the more i'm satisfied with this interpretation. it is what i understood from watching it but i don't always trust my own intuitions.

Reese · 05-26-2010, 04:20 PM

Original Ending, Bob Newhart Style.

Charlatan · 05-29-2010, 09:44 PM

Thanks for posting that article. It's just how I thought it worked out.

I just finished watching the finale (thanks iTunes) and I loved it. Very satisfying.

I am going to miss this series, immensely.

05-24-2010, 11:21 AM	#166 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I don't think he ever existed. Once Locke became "enlightened", he insisted that Jack didn't have a son while in the recovery room. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-24-2010, 11:32 AM	#167 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	In one of the early episodes i think it showed that Jack's wife was pregnant(?). I'm thinking Jack conjured up his son in the afterlife to experience what i would have been like to have a son before moving on. __________________ We Must Dissent.

05-24-2010, 04:33 PM	#172 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	Best finale ever. I literally don't think I could have ever come up with a better ending. So perfect for a perfect series. I am sad it's gone, though. __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

05-26-2010, 05:49 AM	#182 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Redlemon, my wife asked me to thank you for that article, and I will add mine as well. We both enjoyed it immensely. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-26-2010, 06:09 AM	#183 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	the more i think about it the more i'm satisfied with this interpretation. it is what i understood from watching it but i don't always trust my own intuitions. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-24-2010, 11:14 AM	#165 (permalink)
Jove Groovy Hipster Nerd Location: Michigan	I sort of understand the series finale after numerous explanations here and various other articles explanation. I would like to know what happened to Jack's son after the party? Did he vanish or did he never exist?

05-24-2010, 02:00 PM	#169 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	I didn't mean to suggest that Jack HAD to become the smoke monster, rather that I had a brief moment of "How are they going to fuck with us now?" in which Jack did become the smoke monster, the explosives that Whidmore brought took down the plane just as it was leaving and that the church full of happy people went kaboom, followed by LOST and the music. I'm not saying it would've been a better ending or anything (far from it), just that after all the endless twists in the show-and in particular in the season finales-the very paranoid corner of my brain was desperately trying to figure out what the tragic twist would be here, so I'd be a bit more prepared for it. Though I revel in it, I'm still a little shocked that Lost had, for most intents and purposes, a happy ending. As far as genres go, I think Lost never full committed to one, and it certainly never attempted to be full of answers and explanations hard sci-fi. It happened to attract a lot of fans of hard sci-fi who enjoy fiction that really breaks down how plot elements "work" at least within the confines of a given fictional universe, but I don't think we were ever given any reason to believe that Lost would fill in all those holes. The only answer I really remember being promised us is that of what happened to the survivors, and we got that answer pretty directly. Please add me to the ever-growing group of people who would happily watch "Hurley and Ben Protect the Island: Electric Boogaloo."

05-24-2010, 04:13 PM	#171 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Yeah, Kimmel can go fuck an enraged polar bear.

05-25-2010, 04:13 AM	#175 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	About the ending, I think Mike Hale got it right. Television - No Longer ‘Lost,’ but Fans Are Still Searching - NYTimes.com

05-25-2010, 06:47 AM	#177 (permalink)
Jove Groovy Hipster Nerd Location: Michigan	Is anyone else having post Lost blues? I am now having flash backs/flash forwards and moving side ways. WE HAVE TO GO BACK!

05-25-2010, 03:36 PM	#180 (permalink)
Eilonwy Tilted Location: NJ	Wow, thanks for posting that. I really like that explanation! It does make the things I saw as pointless seem less so, and it's a good reasoning for those absent at the church.

05-25-2010, 08:55 PM	#181 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Great find and great read, Redlemon. Thanks very much for posting it.

05-26-2010, 04:20 PM	#184 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	Original Ending, Bob Newhart Style. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

05-29-2010, 09:44 PM	#185 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Thanks for posting that article. It's just how I thought it worked out. I just finished watching the finale (thanks iTunes) and I loved it. Very satisfying. I am going to miss this series, immensely. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke