UKking

To start this off in grand style, I figured I'd address the retirement of one of the greats of all time...""The Nature Boy" Ric Flair.

What can be said about perhaps the best wrestler to ever lace up the boots. We have a guy that the NWA trusted so much that they basically gave him the NWA World Heavyweight Title for about a decade. They built the entire Jim Crockett Promotions around him...

His Accomplishments are amazing...
Championships and accomplishments

* All Japan Pro Wrestling
o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Central States Wrestling
o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling | Jim Crockett Promotions | World Championship Wrestling
o NWA Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Championship (4 times)
o NWA Mid-Atlantic Tag Team Championship (3 times) - with Rip Hawk (1), Greg Valentine (1) and Big John Studd (1)
o NWA Mid-Atlantic Television Championship (1 time)
o NWA Television Championship (1 time)
o NWA United States Heavyweight Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (4 times)
o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (6 times)
o NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (3 times) - with Greg Valentine (2) and Blackjack Mulligan (1)
o WCW International World Heavyweight Championship (2 times) (Last)
o WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
o WCW World Heavyweight Championship (7 times)(First)

* National Wrestling Alliance
o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* St. Louis Wrestling Club
o NWA Missouri Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* World Wrestling Federation | World Wrestling Entertainment
o WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
o WWF Championship (2 times)
o World Tag Team Championship (3 times) - with Batista (2) and Roddy Piper (1)
o WWF Royal Rumble (1992)
o WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2008)
o Triple Crown Championship (13th)

* Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum
o (Class of 2005)

* St. Louis Wrestling Hall Of Fame
o (Class of 2007)
-------------------------------------------------------

Jim Crockett Promotions put their entire stock into Flair. The first closed circuit supercard that the NWA put on, Flair won the main event. The first pay-per-view, Flair won the main event.

Flair is in the center of so many great matches and moments, one can not merely list them. You have to grab a stiff drink and a cigar, sit around the poker table, and recount them with several of your closest friends.

Coming soon, the Top Ten Matches that I feel Flair put on in his career.

Wooooo!!!

pan6467

While I admit Flair to be the best, he was never a favorite until the last few years. I have heard through people who have worked with him and from the WWE and other talking heads and superstars, that Flair more than anyone would and could work with anyone and make them look like a great wrestler. He was the ultimate pro.

My favorites would have to be Perfect Curt Hennig, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley, Rob Van Dam, Chris Jericho, Hunter Hearst Helmsley, Randy Savage, Jerry Lawler, and Bret Hart.

They all (except Hart) had great skills and a sense of humor in the ring and in interviews. These guys weren't just clothesline, leg drop, wrestlers these guys had/have true skills and put on fucking killer shows.

And again, from everything I have ever heard from people who have met and/or worked with these guys, whether in interviews or in personal contact with them.... the only assholes on m list are Hart and Savage. HHH has a ad rap basically because he's married to he owners daughter, but the man has fucking talent to be where he is.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

Professional wrestling isn't a sport - it's entertainment. The WWE has admitted it in court. And Vegas has known it for decades. And since I'm in the position to move this thread into Tilted Entertainment where I think it belongs, someone needs to convince me that professional wrestling is a sport.

If there's a medal, not a belt, on the line, then the above does not apply.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Ilow

Yeah, I had the same reaction. I guess to each his own. Probably the best place for the post. Although I would rather have a fun discussion of how professional wrestling is soap operas for guys.

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

pan6467

It is and always has been, probably always will be. Real wrestling unless you are truly into it because you wrestled or for whatever reason.... would never make that kind of money.

It does not take away from the athleticism some of these guys have though. Plus, whether real or fake I don't want to fall through a 10' chain link fence onto a slightly padded piece of wood and continue fighting for 5-10 minutes.

It takes skill unless you are a Hulk Hogan, Rock or older Steve Austin where your mic skills and charisma become your bread and butter.

I truly believe that some of these guys are those most athletic, durable, resilient people in all of sports.

I'll even make a prediction, if it isn't the whole MMA (real fighting) will become fake also. Promotions cannot afford a death or watching their prime moneymakers injured to the point they can't fight. Once a few headliners decide they like the money and fame, they aren't going to want to go out and run the risk of losing it all. All it will take is one lawsuit or a few of he top guys to threaten to leave and start rival promotions.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

smoore

Pro wrestling is to sport what "god" is to science.

Please pick a different activity to declare a sport.

(There is no god)

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smoore

pan6467

It may not be a sport BUT the majority of the men and women in the squared circle are extremely athletic and in better shape than most athletes in "true" sports.

With all the refs that have been caught gambling on games, with TV wanting big market teams to win so they have audiences... I am not so sue the "pro" and college games aren't fixed.

You watch the Barry Zitos sign huge ass contracts then flop..... you have players demanding to be traded and you can watch hem not even try for the team, you have calls that are questionable or no calls that leave you wondering how the officials could possibly miss them....

Sorry, where most pro/college sports want to call their games legit but there are far too many questions.... at least wrestling admits to what it is.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

silent_jay

MMA becoming fake won't happen, first off, they are trained fighters, not athletic entertainers such as wrestlers are. MMA fighters don't just 'decide' they don't want to go out there and risk it all, they've trained most of their lives for this sport, that's like a hockey player suddenly deciding he just likes the money and hires someone off the street to wear his jersey on the bench.

Starting a rival promotion really isn't a concern either, there are tons of other promotions aside from the UFC, they're basically the equivalent of what the AHL is to hockey, a farm system, or a developing grounds for new skill.

Why can't promotions afford a death? Enough people have died in a boxing ring or as a result of a fight and boxing seems to keep on going, why should a death in MMA be any different?

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Ilow

Pan, you are correct that professional wrestlers do have talent, and are in exceptional shape, for the most part, however that does not mean that it is a sport any more than the gymnasts who perform in circuses. Those mats are not soft and they perform or are on the road 300 days a year, but it is quite distinct from MMA, such as the UFC. I will gladly take your bet that the UFC will become like the WWE. There is no reason for them to make it fake, it is growing in popularity and successful already, as well as becoming more legitimate and mainstream. You could much more easily make the case the other way, as profesional wrestlers have incredible short lifespans, many not living past 40, and there is rampant steroid and drug use, things that are not a part of the UFC.
As far as I can tell, acts such as professional wrestling have around entertaining the masses since the time of Shakespeare, and probably beyond, but that's all it is entertainment.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

evilbeefchan

As much as I enjoy wrestling, I can never consider it a sport. Competition cannot exist when the ending to a match is predetermined.

pan6467

I never claimed wrestling to be a true sport. However, my opinion is that the so called sports may very well be fixed one way or another as I elicited above.

All it takes is one death and the states start looking at MMA. All it takes is a couple big names going out deciding they like the fame and money and decide to "fix" things.

Sounds impossible and unlikely but give it time. We shall see.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ilow

I am not sure what you are referring to as far as the "one death" part. Are you saying that if someone dies then an investigation will reveal that there is already some fakenes; or that one death will prompt a push for "safer" (i.e. predetermined) outcomes. I just don't see what you're saying (i'm not trying to be a smartass). Wrestlers and boxers have both died in the ring (or due to ring related injuries) and both of those sports continue on fine. Dana White knocks on wood when the topic of deaths in the octagon arise, but in reality there are good safety measures in place, not the least of which is actually having evenly matched, competitive opponents.

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

UKking

Next up:

The Moment: Bret Hart calls out Bill Goldberg on Monday Nitro
The significance: Up to this point in Bret's WCW career, he wasn't getting the matches he should have. Generally, it is looked back upon as WCW mismanaging a wrestler that thy should have done so much more with.

In front of a Canadian Pro-Hart crowd, Bret Hart calls out Goldberg.


Goldberg goes for the spear, but like a scene out of Fistful of Dollars, Bret is wearing a metal plate under his shirt. Then, Bret quits WCW.

Bret didn't return until after his brother's death later that year.

UKking

I wouldn't say to them wrestling is a sport. What I would say is that wrestling is a predetermined athletic competition. The things some wrestlers can accomplish in the ring are amazing...the feats of strength, the dives, etc. I know for sure I could not get into a ring and perform at the level that even say The Brooklyn Brawler or The Ultimate Warrior could. The truth is even some great sports figures could not make the transition from pro football to the ring.

Wrestling is more about the spectacle, rather than the sheer athleticism. There's humor, there's drama, and then there's the matches...not really in that order...

highthief

That is an interesting statement and one I have heard bandied about before, but I don't think it is accurate.

When you don't actually have to test yourself - be it against an opponent who is really trying (soccer, basketball, hockey, rugby, tennis, for instance) or against an objective criteria (such as the clock in a footrace, skiing, and so on) - it is very difficult to say that pro wrestlers are "in better shape" than athletes in real sports. Their stength, endurance, speed and so on are not generally tested to the maximum, as they are when an athlete is truly competing. They are doing athletic things, for sure, and a few of them may well be capable of great athletic feats, but to disparage real athletes with such a statement is not correct, IMO.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

The_Jazz

Pan, baseball's the only exception I can think of for a "true" sport. Mark Grace and John Kruk are/were great athletes, but I don't think anyone would ever accuse them of being in fantastic shape at the pinacles of their respective careers.

Beyond that, I don't think that wrestlers are in better shape than most NBA, NFL, MLS or Olympic athletes. Or, for what it's worth, worse shape either. Those other sports are much less forgiving than baseball.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Derwood

Ric Flair may have been one of the greatest showmen in wrestling, but the best wrestler? Come on! His entire repertoire consisted of:

- chop/slap to the chest
- knee drop to leg
- atomic drop
- suplex
- figure-four leg lock
- cheating

So yeah, 25 years of that. He wasn't fast, wasn't acrobatic, and wasn't particularly strong. He was just extraordinarily charismatic

UKking

My Choice for Top 10 Performers during the PPV era:

1. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin
2. The Rock
3. Ric Flair
4. Hulk Hogan
5. Shawn Michaels
6. Kurt Angle
7. Bret "Hitman" Hart
8. Undertaker
9. Mick Foley
10. Sting

My Choice for Top 10 WrestleMania Matches

1. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Muj7V1c6vQ8 (WrestleMania XX)
2. http://youtube.com/watch?v=gK6D_x8tY50 (WrestleMania III)
3. http://youtube.com/watch?v=KibGHb562TE (WrestleMania 24)
4. http://youtube.com/watch?v=zVARl5LTAks (TLC Match - WrestleMania X-7)
5. http://youtube.com/watch?v=OGygGKBuW6Y - WrestleMania 21
6. http://youtube.com/watch?v=jbxd79JUlJY - WrestleMania VIII
7. http://youtube.com/watch?v=0tPVsgSQb9U (Iron Man Match - WrestleMania XII)
8. http://youtube.com/watch?v=iCsHh45moyo ("I Quit" Match - WrestleMania 13)
9. http://youtube.com/watch?v=CgOMXi95GUU (WrestleMania)
10. http://youtube.com/watch?v=-kfuQBlNCWI (WrestleMania X-7)