Willravel

Oh fuck no, Will. You did not just suggest there was something wrong with Batman Begins! *moves head from side to side and puts hands on hips* OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

Sorry, but not only was there one thing wrong, there were several.

Don't get me wrong! Batman Begins was so far the best interpretation of Batman, alongside of the animated series in the 90s and some of the better graphic novels (Legends of the Dark Knight and Batman: Year One pop to mind). Acting, directing, story, music, etc. were all top notch. Yes, batman Begins deserved like 99.9% of the hoopla.

That said, there were a few problems:
1) Rachel DAWWWWESSS!!!

I killed her because she sucks.

Holy living fuck on a stick: Katie Holmes couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag even if she was co-staring with Orson Welles in a movie directed by Stanley Kubrick that was written by Quentin Tarantino in the mid 90s. Don't get me wrong, there are a plethora of young ladies in hollywood that simply can't act for shit, but they're excusable because they don't drag the rest of the flick down. Katie Holmes in Batman Begins was worse than Jessica Alba in Sin City, Jessica Beil in The Illusionist, and Elisha Cuthbert on 24... COMBINED. And no, Nolan, having her nipples peer boringly through her shirt as if to say "Have you heard of Dianetics?" wasn't enough to distract from the cardboard lines she spewed and the blank stares she gave when she was supposed to emote. If you want to see Katie topless, go download "The Gift" (like you haven't already).

I hate to say it, but I miss Vicky Vale...

2)"Nice coat." Seriously?
Batman Begins was a serious retelling of how Batman came to be. It was based in the amazing graphic novel Batman: Year One, only modified a bit because Batman Year One would have blown too many minds.

"Too many minds!"

There was one particular moment, right after Batman had made his first appearance in the full costume, and OWNED THE LIVING BUTTERSCOTCH out of some mob goons and Arthur Edens from Michael Clayton for some reason. Batman hung upside down and scared the living fuck out of these guys. Then what does he do? "Oh, hey guy I lent my coat to when I was a teenager! Nice coat!" NICE COAT?! Was this some sort of failed attempt to make the film more family friendly? Because it really ruined one of the most badass parts of the movie.

3) The impossible to watch fight scenes.
If you're a fan of action movies like I am, you know that there is actually much substance to be had in fight scenes. The Luke/Vader light-saber battle in Empire Strikes Back spoke in many layers about each of their roads leading to that point and the dramatic shift in their relationship from simply enemies to father and son. And you could see it in when they did battle. The father testing the son, the son lashing out at his great enemy... it was really wonderful. Batman Begins? Basically the camera is shaking and shifting all over creation so much that you have no clue what's going on. If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they simply put the camera inside an old industrial tire and rolled it down a rocky hillside. And what makes it even worse? In the extra features on the DVD or HD DVD, they go to a lot of trouble to explain that Christian Bale was a fantastic fighter and that he was able to use his photographic memory to perfectly imitate these moves he was getting from world class professionals. WHAT? WHERE?!

4) Commissioner Gordon as the comic relief?!
Commissioner Gordon is supposed to be a level 6 badass. He's supposed to be Obi Wan + Hartigan from Sin City. In Batman Begins? He's the "I've gotta get me one of these" guys. He's Marlon Wayans with a mustache. Really, Godron? Do you gotta get you one of these? Oh and that's not the worst part: IT'S GARY OLDMAN! He's played Lee Harvey Oswald, Dracula, the guy who killed Leon in The Porfessional, Beethoven, Pontius Pilot, and the Devil; a truly great and awesome actor. Having him reduced to "oh snap, I gotsta get me one uh deez!" is a tragedy.

5) "Didn't you get the memo?" No, but I've got this spork I could jam in my eye!
Remember when mean old Mr. Earl said "Didn't you get the memo?" when he fired Fox and you wondered, "What the fuck is he talking about? Memo?" Well the one and only reason he said that was to set up the "OH SNAP" moment at the end so Lucius Fox (Morgan "I'll ShawShank You" Freeman) would retort the same line back, in a situation where the line still makes absolutely no sense. You know who got the memo? NO ONE. WRITE BETTER LINES!

SecretMethod70

I don't mind #2, and I actually like #3, but otherwise I agree.

Still a kick-ass movie though, and I'm really looking forward to the next!

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Nikilidstrom

Number 1,2, and 4 are right on the money in my opinion, with the fight scenes being the most glaring error in judgement made. That shaky cam method was also used in the more recent 30 Days of Night, and almost ruined what was otherwise an excellent movie.

And I also remember feeling very underwhelmed by Oldman's performance. When I heard he was in the movie, I was a little worried because he always seems to play uninhibited villains, which really allows him to show off his acting chops, where Gordon always struck me as sort of a subdued character. Unfortunately, instead of ramping up the "tough guy" image or Gordon to give him some depth, they did what you said and turned him into comedy relief.

Having said all of that, I still loved the movie, and can't wait for The Dark Knight to come out. Hopefully they changed DPs so the shaky cam goes away.

Willravel

Oh, don't get me wrong. I loved the movie. I just had a few things that should be improved for next time.

spindles

It really is amazing how some actresses keep working. You comment about Katie Holmes made me think about Audrey Tautou in "The Da Vinci Code". The kinda surprised look worked really well in Amelie, but just doesn't cut it for a (supposedly) serious role.

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pig

If you're going to get pissed off about an actor doing the comic relief bit...I can't wait to see your review of LOTR....Gimli? Really? That's what Peter Jackson came up with? Ass-raping the dwarf to be the comedic relief?

As for Katie Holmes...I never thought I would long for the days when I ignored her on Dawson...but shit. I can understand the attracted to older successful actor guy thing...but what a fucked up life to lead. I usually give people a break when they're acting out comics...maybe their wooden to show the image of caricature that's often found in comics...but regardless.

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Willravel

Audrey has the benefit of being life-alteringly gorgeous, though. Katie is okay, but wow she has all the acting talent of a burlap sack full of Vin Diesel scripts.
DUDE! TLOTR was totally next on my list! I'll have to find something else.

pig

Sorry to pre-empt...I say knock out some LOTR... there's tons of shit there. Liv Tyler's role and the complete script change to increase the importance of her role...Gimli...the ease with which the ghost people overcame the bad guys...They could have saved a lot of time, nevermind the buildup, and just sent Aragorn into make the deal..and been done with it. All in all a great set of movies...but some of that crap I just could have done without. Honestly, Gimli and Liv Tyler are the real aspects that annoyed me the most.

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highthief

I don't much agree on this - all Batman characters have been interpreted and reinterpreted a dozen different ways. Gordon is not "meant" to be any way in particular. He's been portrayed as a straight cop, as a comic relief, as a tough as nails cop, as a frail human being, as a boy scout, as one tempted by corruption, and many more ways besides.

Just because this portrayal does not match your Year One expectations, does not mean it is not a valid portrayal.

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Willravel

It's not about validity (though I can't remember Gordon being goofy except maybe in the life action series), but it's about the movie being better. Gary Oldman is one of the best actors in the world. He's Batman's connection to the police, which is important for a vigilante character. It didn't work with the movie.

guy44

#1: Yeah, Katie Holmes really sucked. Really really badly. But let's not go overboard here: she isn't anywhere near as bad as Jessica Biel in The Illusionist or Jessica Alba in, um anything (I don't think I've ever seen a Hollywood actress so bad that they'd cut out all her speaking lines in porn until Alba came around. Good thing she's off-the-charts hot. Hm. Actually, she should do us all a favor and just do porn). And I've never seen 24, so I can't comment on Elisha Cuthbert.

#2: Meh. The "nice coat" thing was kinda lame but barely registered, really.

#3: OK, now we're talking. I understand that the whole point of Batman's fight scenes were to show how fast and nearly invisible he can be. But. I hate, hate, hate the jumpy-camera-can't-tell-what's-going-on style of action scenes in movies. The Matrix came out 9 years ago: the bar has been raised, people, for nearly a decade. If you can't direct a complex action sequence in a multi-million dollar Hollywood blockbuster without cop-out jump-cuts, then just hire the Wachowski brothers to do the single-camera, long-take shots for you.

#4: I thought Gordon's character was just fine. He did work in the movie, which needed at least one regular guy to kinda stare in disbelief at all the shit going down and go, "Come on, this can't be happening..." I also think that his character is just beginning to understand the depths of what happens in Gotham in Batman Begins, and there is plenty of room for him to darken as he spends the next to flicks working with Batman as a full-fledged Commissioner.

#5: Yeah, OK, "Didn't you get the memo" was really just put in there so the stuffy board member guy could get his comeuppance at the end. But, you know, whatever. Didn't really affect the movie much one way or another.

Overall I really loved that movie, though. A nice bonus was the fact that it was filmed right here in Chicago, and I spent the entire time the scenes were set in Gotham going, "I know that building. I work there. That building's really nice. Oh, they added CG effects to make that building look taller..." Plus, the second film was also filmed here and my Mom was actually evacuated from a building next to the one which was being used for an action sequence and accidentally lit on fire - but it wasn't the film crew's fault, it turned out to be ancient air ducts that got screwed up somehow. Either way, it's a cool story and I learned some details from an important scene a year before it came out...

I don't mean to sound crass, but while I'm really looking forward to seeing the next one, I have no desire to go through the (largely) false public mourning of Heath Ledger when the movie comes out. Not that I don't think his story isn't sad, or that his family isn't suffering, but...I just don't care. I'm sorry, but fucked up shit like that happens all the time and I have no reason to care extra just because he was a movie star. Sadly I just know we're in for two months minimum of hagiographies and A & E biographies...

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SecretMethod70

Didn't know you were in Chicago guy44

Onodrim was an extra in The Dark Knight

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FoolThemAll

I must just suck at watching movies. Katie Holmes seemed perfectly adequate to me.

Those fight scenes were a boring waste, though.

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m0rpheus

Personally I loved the 'where the fuck is he?' style of fight scenes. It really seems to be one of those things that either you love it or you hate it. Unfortunately you hate it and you are wrong for hating it. (kidding)

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Hain

#1 and #3 I agree. #2, I agree with someone above, was barely registered. #4: yeah Gordon will darken, don't worry. #5, they just had to. They should have made it better.

In those five things I didn't read the impossibility of the microwave weapon vaporizing water mains right next to people. Yet it didn't vaporizing the people? Hmm... is it because people have more impurities in their water? Wouldn't they still have felt an extreme discomfort being exposed to such intense microwaves? Could the weapon be confined such that it wasn't directing its microwaves at people? No, it was a hand-wave in order to add to bad-ass-ness of the movie.

I loved Begins by the way, don't doubt that.

Lasereth

The movie definitely wasn't perfect but it was so far ahead of most comic book movies that I can't complain. Then again I have unbelievably high standards for movies so when a comic book movie of this caliber comes out I put it on a golden pedestal. This movie could have been Fantastic Four, X-Men 3, Superman Returns, any of the older Batman movies, Elektra, Catwoman, Spiderman 1 or 3, Daredevil, Punisher, etc. the list goes on. But instead it hit it right and ended up on the list of Excellent Comic Book Movies.

I guess I also ought to say that whether a comic book movie adheres to comic book canon has nothing to do with whether I like a comic book movie or not. The acting, script, direction, atmosphere, etc. is why I like a CB movie. It bothers me when people bash truly good movies like Spiderman 2 or Batman Begins or V for Vendetta because they stray from the comic book source.

Willravel

You'll notice I didn't actually do that, because I agree that it's not exactly a fair complaint.

blahblah454

I agree with everything you said, but I have not read Batman: Year One. And the memo thing didn't bother me. To me it was just the rich asshole CEO being a dick by saying he fired Morgan in a memo.

Miss-5-head did put a sour spot on the movie, thats for damn sure.

Frosstbyte

I'm confused. Are these threads where you nitpick 5 things you dislike about a movie you otherwise like? And, if so, whats the point of doing that?

Willravel

Yes.
My hope would be that someone would see these mistakes and try to avoid them in the future. Otherwise, it's a good way to vent that otherwise great movies have bizarre mistakes.

Willravel

I thought I'd drop back in and say I can't do one of these for "The Dark Knight". The only fault with the movie is that it will make a damned difficult movie to top for Bale/Nolan.

Bees

Totally agree!

And I am so happy that Katie was ditched in favor of Maggie Gyllenhaal for Dark Knight.

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Nikilidstrom

Fight scenes were still horribly filmed, guess thats just Nolan's style. Other than that, another awesome installment.

Derwood

I know I'm in the minority, but I thought Holmes as a thousand times better than Gylenhall

slant eyes

i'm with derwood on this...the whole movie, i was like...'really? her for holmes?' maybe i'm coming from a superficial standpoint as holmes looks way better than that lazy-eyed gylenhall. god...and the part where someone calls her 'beautiful' i almost busted out laughing

my 0.02

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mrklixx

Yeah, but she's got a nice pussy...

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Seer666

Well, I didn't mind the nice coat line, seeing as it used to be his coat. It was a semi-humorous way of showing just how well Bats remembers small details.

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