Slyboots

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...aco_s_plight_1

After being a pillar in this small town community, he gets deported for telling the truth? The guy has done so much for that lil town and the way the system is treating him is pretty fucked up if you asked me.

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politicophile

Man Breaks Immigration Laws, Is Deported

Regardless of what a good guy he was, Inzunza was still an illegal immigrant: he deserved to be deported.

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shakran

No, he got deported because he was here illegally. If he wished to be a pillar in the community he would not have broken the immigration law and snuck into this country, stealing its services (keep in mind that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes lest they get caught, which means all the public services (roads, etc) that you pay for, they're using for free.

If he wished to be a part of this community that he was so purportedly a pillar in, then he should have maybe tried going the legal route.

If they're here illegally, they've already shown that they flaunt our laws. Why do we want them here? I'm all for immigration, but that favorable attitude does not extend to criminals.

martinguerre

That's not true.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html

Why repeat something so adamantly when it's demonstrably false?

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Rekna

actually most illegals do pay taxes from what I understand. The IRS knows a lot about who the illegals are but they are forbiden to share that information with anyone.

djtestudo

One question I'm a little hazy about.

If you're already here illegally, what exactly can you do to become legal while staying?

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martinguerre

Currently, it's rare. But your status can be adjusted. Refugees (in theory) are allowed to arrive first, file for status and then their case is reviewed. But this is why the Coast Guard intercepts Cubans *before* they hit land so that none of that applies.

In some cases, a "Humanitarian Parole" is granted to someone who arrived without inspection (the technical term for border crossing). These are exceedingly rare, and are a catchall visa for special circumstances. Often granted in conjuction with a need for medical treatment only available in the US. I worked as a congressional liason in immigration affairs...out of the nine cases i filed for Humanitarian Parole, i got one accepted. And that's a high batting average.

Mostly, entry without inspection does preclude adjustment of status. if you overstay a visa but did intitally enter legally, there are a few more options. but a lot's changed since 2001...and across the board, it's harder to enter. we shut down refugee resettlement from anywhere for a year in the wake of the attacks. i work with a Baptist church in Minnesota...and we had a bunch of Karen refugees desperatly in need of a new home, as their camps were being closed by the Thai government, and we shut the door on these folks for over 12 months while "security" reviews were done. The reason these folks were refugees in the first place was that they were an ethnic minority, and Christian.

the point of the story is that legal immigration is a closed door right now. the number of visas we grant is tiny in proportion to the population that we could be accepting.

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analog

So can i smoke pot as long as I'm a nice guy and a contributing member of society?

I don't care how good a guy he is, he broke a law. If the penalty is deportation, then that's that.

And wow, what an awesome pillar of the community: he told the truth. AMAZING! He's practically Ghandi or Jesus Christ or something. *rolls eyes*

ChistledStone

Exactly. Sure, at times being a good guy can overcome little legal matters (imagine if everyone who speeded ever had to pay fines. The government would be rolling in money) but laws aren't there to stop fun. They're there to keep rule and order.

Great he told the truth. One step closer to becoming a good-valued citizen. But not close enough obviously.

Lock him up and send him home. He isn't worth the tax dollars to send him back.

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flat5

I'm glad the judge was not as hard nosed as some of you.

hulk

Wow, just wow. The attitudes of the replies to this thread are appaling. I'd imagine this man has done more for the community than anyone who thinks he got what he deserved, and heaven help you guys if you ever need the security of another country. Sheesh.

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Schwan

Wow. Some true love and compassion in this thread. Not.

shakran

No argument that this system is set up or that some illegals are using it. But if you seriously think all the illegals are paying taxes, you're sadly misinformed.

And since that was only part of my argument, my argument wouldn't be weakened (much) even if every immigrant WAS paying taxes. They're still here illegally. They're not supposed to be here. Get them out.

canuckguy

my thoughts exactly. if these are the type of people that you don't want in your community, thank god i live far away! he's only illegal, I could think of many worse things for this poor dude to be.

Pragma

That's just it - he's not actually deported yet, he's just on trial and the penalty could be deportation. He won't even get to trial for another year and a half, assuming that the case doesn't get dropped in the mean time.

Given how much of a help this guy is to the community, I don't think he'll have problems being able to stay, especially with the whole community throwing in behind him.

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Fate

He shouldn't be departed, he did more than enough to earn his right to stay.
I don't see why being illegal is relevant after 12 years; he's only helped the people of that community to not only do their job, but progress in their lives. It's amazing how the ass-end of the law can't be looked around for good people.

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Rekna

How is an illegal immigrant going to avoid paying sales tax? How is an illegal immigrant who is using fake social security numbers to get jobs going to avoid paying income tax when it is the employer who with holds the money?

shakran

He'll avoid property tax. He'll avoid income tax when his employer doesn't care about the social security numbers. Can't tell you how many nurseries I've covered that get busted for knowingly hiring illegals and paying them in cash. It's actually rather rampant.

kel

for entering the country illegally and breaking laws that exist to protect us.
duh!

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Rekna

But did this particular guy avoid paying taxes?

politicophile

The issue of taxation is a red herring. So is the fact that he was an upstanding member of his community.

Imagine that a man [stole a necklace from a jewelery store/operated a car under the influence/started a fight in a bar/collected mob "protection money"/committed some minor crime to your liking]. Incidentally, this man also was a upstanding member of his community and always paid his taxes. The question is this: should he be punished according to the guidelines established by law?

My answer is an emphatic yes. It simply is bad social policy to not enforce the law on people just because you think they are nice guys. I am looking for liberty and justice for all, and that includes illegal immigrants. This fellow can have all the liberty he wants... after he is justly deported to his homeland.

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Pragma

Here's a different question - is it possible to try to pay taxes without being a legal resident? He seems like a good enough citizen that he probably would have, if he'd have been able to figure out a way to mail untraceable checks to the IRS

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shakran

As I said before, I don't care. He's here illegally. He needs to leave. I don't care if he pays DOUBLE taxes, he's still here illegally, and needs to leave.

Dengar

Theres no grandfather clause for illegal immigration. Sure he did a nobal thing and helped knowing hed get caught but he should have gotten in line with the rest of them.

analog

Hey, I don't give a damn about all the "geez, that's harsh" and "you're being tough on him" bleeding-heart bullshit. My grandfather and grandmother (not great-great or anything, my immediate grandfather) came to America from another country. Legally. They did all the work to be here legally, and they sure as shit didn't get a pat on the back and a collective bleeding-hearts-of-TFP blowjob for doing something as simple as telling the truth, under oath, which is what you're supposed to do anyway.

So, in short, I have no sympathy for those here illegally. Break the law, face the consequences.

Da Munk

I'm sure he's a great guy. It would be great if he could legally become a citizen. It's horrible that our immigration laws make it so difficult for people who genuinely want to work hard to make a better life for themselves to get in. Unfortunately, he did break the law and should be punished accordingly. Laws serve no purpose if we don't enforce them. Disagree with the law, work to get it changed, but don't ask for them to ignore it while it still exists.

Suave

I'm sure you'd feel the same way about laws if you were driving and accidentally hit and killed someone, got convicted of manslaughter, and were sent off to prison where you were summarily raped for 3 years. You'd be like "well, I deserved it, because that's the law no matter how good a person I may be." Yup. I totally believe that.

Also, anti-marijana laws are stupid.

And why do you feel the need to throw around "bleeding-heart" and shit? Shall we start calling you names?

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hulk

Is justice always better than mercy, though? analog, do you honestly believe that every punishment laid down by the law is just, merely for the fact that it was the law? It was illegal for native Germans to associate with Jews in Nazi Germany, do you think those that helped them escape death deserve being executed? I mean, they did break the law.

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shakran

Are you seriously trying to tell us that not allowing illegal immigrants to sneak into the country and be here without permission is comparable to naziism?

That's not even a *clever* invocation of Godwin's law.

hulk

No, that wasn't my intention. I said it to challenge analog's view that any punishment laid down by law, due soley to the fact that the law lays it down, is valid. If you want another tragedy to go by, well, I can name a few. Stalin's purges, Saddam's anti-kurdish crusades, executing people for stealing sheep, hanging black slaves for trying to free themselves, the forced removal of Australian Aboriginal children, and so on, and so forth.

And btw, someone invokes Godwin's law when they declare a thread over because someone mentiones the Nazis. Frankly, I think it's stupid to base an assumption of victory in a debate by naming an outdated convention.

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alansmithee

Like others, I agree that if he's here illegally, he has to go. Good acts do not immediately vegate criminal ones. The thread title is misleading-he's not being deported for telling the truth, he is being brought up for being an illegal immigrant. His truth-telling has nothing to do with it. If he was really as good an honest as some here would like to believe, he would have applied for citizenship legally in the first place.

shakran

All of which are obvious violations of human rights. Illegal immigrants do NOT have the right to come here illegally, so sending them back home is not a violation of human rights. You will not fool us with your comparisons, no matter how you explain them.

1) You don't have the facts right about Godwin's law, but that's not germane to the thread.

2) I assume victory because I have the facts on my side. He snuck into the country. He was here illegally. He got caught. He got deported. He could have been a pillar of his community if he had come here legally.


Let me ask you this. If he had not been so active and involved with his community, would you still say he should be allowed to stay? Why do you think we have immigration laws? Do you not think it's a good idea to have immigration laws so that there is some measure of control over who gets into the country?

Aladdin Sane

This guy (and 15 million others) are here illegally. They should all be sent back, or the law changed to allow them to stay. Period.

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hulk

Then, I'd wager, you'd have at least a few million lower-class jobs to fill.

shakran, I never once brought up the issues of human rights. You're reading too far into my comparisons, to be quite honest, and your efforts are wasted. I know that they were all evil fuckers, there's no argument about that. What is relevant, though, is the idea that no matter how you live your life, one fuck up and you're gone.

The irony is that if he had kept quiet, and not gone out of his way to help, he'd still be in the country living a happier life. It's hardly likely he'll have much of a home to go back to after 12 years abroad, isn't it?

Anyways, Godwin's law is rather irrelevant. The longer a discussion is, the probability the argument will be compared to anything, from nazis to tacos to space-faring monkeys, approaches one.

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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
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ngdawg

As a school custodian, he is paying taxes and probably union dues as well.
In New Jersey, we have 'day workers'(I'm sure that is the case all over as well)-illegals who go to certain places and get picked up by people needing hired help. Most times the people taking on these workers are building contractors and landscapers, which irritates the union workers and can make for inferior workmanship. They are the ones paid in cash and do not pay taxes, they live two families or more in cramped subpar rental housing and slip through the cracks quite easily.
While his beginnings were not stellar, he is obviously a man of pride and enough integrity to willingly help, knowing his status would be in question at some point. Were that those who even came here legally had the standards this man has shown.

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Rekna

Apparently you haven't read the threads above... he doens't need an untraceable check. there are lots of ways for illegals to volentarily and involentarily pay taxes.

frogza

I can't bring my heart to bleed because someone received the consequences of their actions. Just because the consequences of illegal entry didn't catch up immediatly doesn't exempt him from what he knew would happen if he got caught.

If a person were to confess to another crime and the police arrested them, we wouldn't be seeing the same backlash we are seeing with this case. The man commited a crime, confession doesn't undo that, it just makes it easier to prosecute.

Rekna

Those of you who think compassion has no place with the law you should look at outcomes of trials in the USA since it was founded. Clearly compassion and extenuating circumstances have been brought into verdicts.

The thing about this case that bothers me is this guy was doing his part to be a productive member of society, he is a good guy who was self sacrificing. This is more than many of you can say i'm sure. This guy deserves to be in this country more than many legal citizens.

cyrnel

Don't forget, the man's good (non)citizenship did buy him support and a very substantial delay. Not something afforded everyone. He has all kinds of time to plan, meet with attorneys, etc., to make his proper bid for citizenship. He's demonstrated the right qualities in all but one area: illegal entry. Correcting that situation be a very nice cap on his otherwise good record. Politically and honestly, the powers that be would find it difficult to deny this guy a fast track to legal citizenship once he complies in this last area. Set it up, leave, about face and go through the ceremony. Everybody wins.

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JustJess

1. Yes, he broke the law. I jaywalked today, too. Friday, I was speeding. And yes, I consider it that much of an issue.

2. Want to send all the illegals home? Who's going to do all the cleaning, the maintenance, the cooking in restaurants, the harvesting? These people are so grateful for an opportunity to have work, they're willing to do what most American citizens are not. And believe me, the average business owner has NO problem taking advantage of their desperation. They're not living easy lives here, they are working their asses off for very little money.

3. It's pretty easy to be all high and mighty about "he broke the law" when it's not your life, isn't it? People need second chances - in many cases, first chances. And it's not like our government is making it easy to get that chance. Most immigrants that I have spoken with (and I talk to a lot people in general, and immigrants specifically since that's what I do for a living) would be perfectly happy to do things legally, if only they COULD.

I know a guy who works just about harder than anyone else I've met. He's an upstanding guy, has a lovely wife and kids, and has been working hard to become a legal permanent resident. Even though he's making less than any of you would ever accept as a salary, he put his hard earned money into lawyers to file for permanent residency. The lawyers gave him bad advice, told him he didn't need a new employment authorization card cause he was filing as a refugee (for various reasons, that was untrue), and generally left him to hang. Being the employer, we could not keep him on staff without legal work authorization. And now, he's got no job. Nothing. He paid taxes like you and I, he worked harder than we do, he's trying to do it right, but he's still screwed.

He's been trying to get legal permanent residence for 12 years.

So yeah, I'm okay with this guy being here anyway. I think it IS important that he told the truth. You say it like that's not a big deal - do the crime, pay the time. Bullshit. In an effort to do the RIGHT thing, he put his whole life in jeopardy. Do you think creating a life and a job for himself was easy? It's not. Moving, learning a new language, a new set of societal rules, raising a family, and then being told too bad, you have to leave? I'd like to see the rest of us handle it so well.

I like him a lot better than some other "real" Americans.

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