Gilda

In the Calvin and Hobbes thread, someone made mention of the sticker that has Calvin peeing on a logo, such as a car company.

I've seen these, almost always on pickup trucks. I've also seen bumper stickers saying things like "I'd rather push my [brand] than drive a [rival]."

I haven't seen it here, but on other forums, I've seen people asking for Windows help openly insulted for not having Macs.

My mom collects Coke memorabilia, and used to actually take a little offense at the thought of me drinking a Pepsi.

On one comic book board I frequent, there are a minority of Marvel and DC fans who will go out of their way to defend everything X company makes, and insult everything the other makes.

I can understand brand loyalty on one level. If you've had good experience with, say Dodge pickup trucks, it makes sense to continue to buy them. If you like the taste of Coke better than Pepsi, by all means, that's a good reason to buy and drink Coke exclusively. The comic book company rivalry baffles me. Is Frank Miller a genius when writing Daredevil but a hack at Batman? If George Perez's Teen Titans were wonderful, how can his Avengers suck? The vast majority of talent has worked for both companies at some point. Following a favorite character makes sense, being loyal to a company doesn't.

If you have a tie to a company, you of course have vested interest in promoting your company's products and an incentive to find fault with your main rival. What I don't understand is why people go out of their way to insult brands/companies, and by extension, the people who patronize those brands/companies that are rivals to those that they happen to like.

Ford/Chevy/Dodge; Coke/Pepsi; Marvel/DC; Donna Karan/Ralph Lauren; Windows/Mac, etc. What is it about being a consumer of one brand that leads people to want to denigrate rival brands? Why are some people who choose brand A compelled to say that brand B sucks?

What's wrong with, as a consumer with no vested interest, saying, "I use product A because it better fits my needs/tastes/desires, but B is also good."

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sadistikdreams

Well, I admit, I always give my ma' a hard time about using PC, me being a "Apple Evangelist".

I mean, people are always gonna have silly little prejudices. It's what makes life interesting.

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Phant84

All of this really makes me think of the book Jennifer Government (which is a great book, btw). There isn't any one brand that I'm stuck with, that I can think of. I don't have anything against Dodge trucks, but I don't plan on buying one. I don't have anything against Nike, even though I don't wear them. I think that brand dependency stemmed from "having" to have a certain logo on my shirt/jacket/shoes/jeans. Are CK jeans really better than the Wal-Mart brand? Yes I understand some brands are better than others, but, is it worth paying extra just for a label?

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doodlebird

damn fine question gilda.
i can only assume the answer has roots in our society full of people who have no real self definition and thus look to define themselves by the objects they consume.... the ultimate "you are what you eat".

as for denigrating the other, this also seems to be at the root of one too many ideologies... "my way is the only way." anyone who doesn't agree with me (or look like me, or pray like me, etc) must be wrong and deserves to be ridiculed for their differences.

mega corps pay billions to get the masses to buy into these perceived differences in products. and it works on a lot of people.

all this being said, i prefer coke, mcdonalds, at&t, ford, mac... they all got to me when i was young. even though i know what's going on, i am helpless against their billions of dollars.

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Squishor

I don't get it at all, and I too wonder about these things. I mean, who cares? I use whatever brand suits my needs or budget. As far as food goes I do tend to buy ones I recognize, since I don't want to invest in an item I might not enjoy. But I don't feel like that's a part of who I am. A lot of the time, it'll be some little locally-made food item nobody's ever heard of anyway. As for clothes, I really couldn't care less, with the one exception of Levis. I'm still dressed the same no matter what the label says. And the whole Ford/Chevy thing is equally mysterious. Personally I drive a Volkswagen but that doesn't mean I hate Hondas.

I recently began taking a bunch of paid online surverys, most if not all of which are for marketing purposes. I was amused to find that they actually expect me to remember what brands I've bought within the last six months. I can barely be bothered to notice these things. I guess I'm not exactly the type they're looking for.

Gilda

To clarify: I don't think there's anything wrong with brand loyalty per se; sticking with a brand that has pleased you in the past makes sense. My question is primarily regarding the need some people seem to feel to attack rivals of their favorites.

I remember a couple of years ago, maybe last year, Boston and New York were playing in the World Series, I think. It was some kind of important series. There were many boys, and one or two girls, who were rabid fans of one team or the other. I heard a lot of "the Yankees suck" from Boston fans and vice versa. Now obviously, if both teams made it into the World Series, they must both be top notch teams, and I would try to gently point this out to people if this happened in my classroom.

I hear this a lot come championship season for sports: Team A which is the championship round and which I am rooting for is a great team, and since they are playing team B, I must hate team B, and because I hate team B, team B must suck. This seems to be the level of thinking going on, and many seem to genuinely believe that whatever team is their favorite's rival for the championship genuinely sucks.

So my question is, I guess, more about brand hostility than loyalty. Why be hostile to a brand that rivals your favorite, just because it is a rival? What benefit is there to this?

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kutulu

I can understand a bit of brand loyalty when it comes to a good product at a fair price but I cannot understand people that spend more than $100 on a single article of clothing. To me its stupid and shows that the person is shallow.

Mephisto2

It's just another manifestation of latent tribalism, and Man's (capital M) tendency to identify and associate with particular "groups" within society. There's quite a lot of interesting sociological, psychological and even evolutionary literature on this topic.

No benefit. Just human nature, and a shadow of a trait exhibited by Man in his distant, possibly pre sapiens, past.


Mr Mephisto

Martian

My brand loyalty extends to driving Chevy (or at least GM) almost exclusively, but I'd never even consider pushing it on someone else. Mum drove a Ford for years; I wouldn't drive her car, mostly because it was a Tempo and didn't suit me in the slightest, but I wasn't about to rag on it. I tease my girlfriend when I end up having to drive her Toyota Camry, but when she asked me seriously what car I thought she should get I told her she could drive whatever she likes.

I have my loyalties, which generally extend from some logical reasons. I prefer Chevy because I've found they make consistently superior products. I don't like Fords because I haven't liked driving any of them and I find them difficult to work on. I ride Harley's because I prefer a cruiser style bike and have found that they tend to be reliable, powerful and comfortable to ride. These are my preferences, however I'm not going to push them on anyone else. That's just egotistical.

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YKK

I agree with both Doodlebird and especially Mr_Mephisto.

This blind hostility for rivals seems to stem from the animal instinct of tribal self-preservation. Preserve the group by killing and eating anything which threatens it. People become bonded over brands as they once did to their tribes, they then commence killing and eating (so to speak) rivals of that brand.

I buy second-hand clothing, PC bits (onoes), toys for my daughter, video games, etc etc etc. There is absolutely no difference in my mind between Sony and NEC monitors. A thing serves it's purpose until it doesn't anymore.

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sashime76

Come to think of it, the only thing I buy that is brand exclusive is my computer CPU. Converted to AMD since '90 and haven't looked back, strange??

d*d

It's more comlicated than just 'good product' experiences. When we buy things - we are also buying into a complex collection of signs that send out information about how we want to be percieved by others. This informs our decisions about what cars, trainers, fizzy drinks etc we buy. It works on a subconscious level and everybody will admit to be bieng above it and argue that they buy things for x reasons,

you think your drinking coke for the taste?

So when we commit to and invest in a desicion and have associated ourselves with a brand positition, we naturally become a little defensive about it, it's almost tribal in nature the most extreme case being football teams you choose tio support (I'm from the UK I mean soccer)- most of what I see is all in good humour though.

Daoust

Excellent post, d*d. I agree with this point. My bank account dictates to a large extent the brands that I purchase. And yet how I want to be perceived by others is very important. I don't buy the cheap pop (soda), I buy Coke because it's widely known as a popular (therefore good?) product.

I still buy a lot of my clothes at Value Village, but whether I'm there or at a more upscale clothing boutique I'm picking clothes that I think others will find attractive on me.

I also don't buy Nike products because I have a bias against them which I do not have reasons for, or explanations. I just don't buy Nike. Funny.

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Redlemon

This statement both cut me to the bone, and made me laugh. I was born and raised in the Boston area, so even though I don't follow baseball, this "important rivalry" is somehow in my blood. To hear it dismissed as you just did initially "hurt"*, then made me realize just how stupid the whole thing is. Thanks.

* (too strong of a word)

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snowy

Yes. Coke, out of all the sodas on the market, has the most complex taste profile. There are over 200 different flavor compounds present in Coca-Cola. Pepsi doesn't have nearly as many (though I still drink it), and don't even get me started on the store brands.

I'm not particularly picky when it comes to caffeinated cola product--my requirements are that it be cold and tasty. Just so happens Coke is the most tasty. But between Coke and Pepsi, I'll pick whatever's on sale.

My only real brand loyalty is to Volvo cars and Colgate toothpaste--because I grew up using both (I still drive an 89 Volvo 240). In all the time that we've had my car (parents are original owners) we've never had to have any major maintenance or repair, and the car has only broken down once (right after I started driving it, too). Even then it turned out to be a simple and easily repaired problem. Despite being 16 years old that car is super-reliable, easy to drive, and gets great gas mileage (about 24 around town and 29 on the hwy). My parents currently own four Volvos--my 240, a 940 wagon, a 960 wagon, and a 960 sedan (89, 94, 95, and 96 respectively). As for the toothpaste--again, something I grew up with. I tried other toothpastes once I was out of my parents' house, but ended up switching back to Colgate because of the taste. Reminds me of being a little kid again sometimes when I use the Original Colgate. Ah, memories.

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maleficent

Funny, as a lifelong Yankees fan (even when I did time outside of Boston) I had the same reaction... All I could think was - gawd she just doesn't get it... But I'll maybe agree that it is a little stupid - though not as stupid as the Boston Red Sux (couldn't resist

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StanT

While the Boston / Yankees rivalry is a bit hard to understand. Any Bears fan will consider 2 wins against Green Bay a successful season, regardless of the their record.

Sports loyalties and rivalries are just fun. I have very few product loyalties, instead, I am loyal to businesses that treat me well. Honda, Toyota, and most other car companies make good cars. I will scan the internet to look at safety and reliability, but I'll buy my car from someone that treats me with respect. Give me good service, treat my wife well (a biggie), and I'll come back when I need a new one.

Redlemon

Ahh, the toothpaste question. My wife grew up with Colgate, and me with Crest. It took a while when we moved in together to resolve that one, since it just seemed stupid to have two different toothpastes. We compromised on Mentadent.

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Meditrina

I have some brand items that I always use, and won't use another brand, because after trying a few brands I found brand A better for me or my family. I like to stick to what works for us. I would never judge someone for liking Brand B, everyone has a right to their own opinions and tastes. Just like every child is different, so is every person. I think it better to say "I don't like brand B" and not insult someone who likes it by saying "It sucks". Maybe that was just the way I was brought up.

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Ustwo

I have very little brand loyalty and I've never understood people who identify who they are through a car.

A car/truck to me is just a way to get from point A to point B, not something you put in the family picture.

I use whatever toothpaste is available, (they are basically all the same), used to drink Pepsi more than coke, but I'd drink both, I like miller lite (shocking I know) but will drink about anything but Budweiser (it gives me a head ache).

I'd say the closest thing I could come up with would be a sports team, which for me would be the Chicago White sox, but even there its more part of getting to make fun of Cub fans, my self worth isn't measured in the success of the team. When they suck, they suck.

I suppose I'm brand neutral. If its good, I'll use it, if something better comes along, I'll use that.

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Squishor

You can't have brand rivalry without brand loyalty.

There's a certain rivalry (or mutual contempt) between European car drivers and Japanese car drivers - I have spent time on an automotive board where Hondas are commonly called "Honduh" etc. I just don't see it, because Honda makes excellent cars. I mean, you can quibble over the minor points but basically that's the truth. It would make more sense for a bunch of BMW drivers to bash on Kia Rio drivers or for Acura NSX enthusiasts to talk shit about Cavalier owners, but then that's kind of like hating someone for only having one leg. As for the Ford/Chevy thing, I grew up in a Chevy but then spent plenty of time in Fords - they honestly seem pretty comparable to me. But then again I don't have any use for American cars built after the mid-60s or so.

I don't know, it must be some sort of competitive thing like sports, which also leaves me just kind of scratching my head in puzzlement. Maybe it comes from insecurity, the need to put someone else down to make yourself feel better, or maybe it's just evidence of the way our society fails to provide meaningful context for our lives. A brand name as a personal identifier is pretty scary, after all. You can bet those big manufacturers don't have a picture of you on their car.

JustJess

I find the only thing I'm particular about is food brands... I grew up eating certain things, and that's what I want to buy for myself now. It's familiar, it tastes right, the whole thing. But I have no idea what it would be like to feel that MY brand is so great, it makes everything else suck!
I buy what's comfortable, and familiar. New things are bought because they correctly marketed to me. Hell, I *know* when I'm being manipulated; doesn't stop me from getting it anyway.

I have to agree with the tribal theories on why people are loyal to one and rival-hatahs.

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Cynthetiq

I have only a few brand loyalties... most of which stem from simple reward of quality product and perceived cost value.

working for a conglomerate, I can see how brands are built, bartered and sold every day. I watch them be created, dusted off and remarketed...

it's amazing.

after living in another country where keeping my brand loyalty would have been fiscally irresponsible (a bag of Doritos for $8??? forget it... I'll learn to eat local snacks) I tend to seek out new brands to try based on cost and quality.

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maleficent

the only time I really am loyal to a particular product is for purely selfish reasons... I fly Continental and American pretty much exclusively because of the miles I get and I fly enough that it puts me into their premium memberships (which usually puts me into shorter lines at the airport and every so often gets me upgrades)

I stay at specific hotels because of the loyalty points, it gets me upgrades...

if the airlines/hotels disbanded the loyalty programs, then it wouldn't matter to me at all who I flew -- if I didn't get something out of it... it wouldn't matter.

basic household products.. I use what works... and generally what is on sale..

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amonkie

The one thing that comes to mind for me is a thought most people don't bring to mind about brand loyalty/rivalry. Competition innovates change, and if there are two relatively similar products (ie Pontiac Sunfire/Chevy Cavalier), sometimes the small improvements between one or the other is made to help draw customers. I figure if there's brand rivalry, that means hopefully that will spur both companies to continue to attempt to differentiate and hopefully improve their products. While I love Pepsi, I seem to remember they had a dark child in Clear Pepsi - sometimes innovation can go the wrong way

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zen_tom

I find brand loyalty and related stupidity scary and undesirable in a person (whether it's national loyalty, company loyalty, sexual-orientation loyalty, race loyalty, city loyalty, website loyalty etc, car loaylty, team loyalty, faith loyalty etc, etc)

People with an unshakable loyalty to these kinds of things are blind to critisism, and common sense. I've met otherwise intelligent people who have totally plummeted in my estimation because of their professed loyalty to x and dislike of y (and people who use/belong to/come from y).

I hate it. I hate the way people are so easily drawn into it. And I refuse to buy cable/satelite TV in order to allow these companies to better hurl their propaganda at me. It makes me sick. Nobody needs that shit.

In William Gibson's "Pattern Recognition" there is a girl who has a severe, almost allergic reaction to brands - she unpicks logos from her clothes, carefully scratches logos off her watch etc - in my view more people should do the same.

But does that make me part of the No-Logo people, and hostile to the Logo people?? Damn there's no escape!!

Pip

You can only show your love to a brand or a sports team so much by buying everything related there is, wave flags and generally praise them. When that isn't enough, you have to paint the competition black in order to make your favourite shine even more. Those who do this are probably the same kind of people that make "friends" by talking crap about others.

The only brand hate I've ever had was for Virgin, because they filled my mailbox with so much used-car spam a few years ago. But they've stopped, so I've forgiven them. Also, one of my favourite bands are on their record label.

Ustwo

Sexual-orientation loyalty? Eh?

Anyways I find nothing wrong with loyalty, but loyalty is earned. If a company is good to you, there is no reason not to have company loyalty. As a citizen of the US, I do have national loyalty and I would never spy or do actions which would bring the nation harm.

There is a big difference between being loyal to your brand of toothpaste or car manufacturer and being loyal to the institutions that are part of your life and well being.

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zen_tom

We're talking about loyalty to one's chosen whatever - or rather hostility to things other than one's chosen whatever.
sexual-orientation loyalty - or rather hostility towards those who don't share the same orientation as yourself, otherwise known as homophobia. Or whatever it's called when a gay person fears/hates straight people. Hetrophobia?

kutulu

There can be quite a bit of that. My mother in law is a lesbian and they go out of their way to see out other lesbians or gays to work with. They have some sense of security when working with other lesbians, as if they are more honest because of that. I don't get it but whatever works for them.

Until my current car, I'd always driven Japanese cars. This time I went with a VW and at 75k miles my timing belt broke. I thought it was supposed to be changed at 90k but I was very wrong. Now, when they designed the vehicle they could have done so in a way that the breaking of the belt doesn't cause major damage. They didn't and now I need to have 12 of the 20 valves changed. Additionally, they put the belt itself in a hard to access place. So just fixing hte belt is $600 because you have to remove half of the shit in the engine. To top it off the bushings need to be replaced. I've never had these problems with my Honda, Mitsubishi, or Toyota. Hell with a Honda you can break the timing belt and it won't cause damage. I'll never buy a VW again. The cars can be designed better but they don't because they want the money you'll spend on parts etc. Fuck them.

MSD

People do not want to hear anyone tell them that their choice might be wrong, and they all want to tink that they're better than everyone else. This has turned us into a society of fucking morons getting into dick-waving contests over whose car really is the automotive reincarnation of Christ and whose is a suclptured turd.

I will defend things when I have evidence to back me up (the people on the wrong side of the FWD/RWD car debate will disagree,) and otherwise I just buy what's on sale and tell people who try to shove thier product choices at me to fuck off.

Jinn

I really don't want to derail.. but... FWD CARS FOREVER... yea... got somethin' to say?!

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Borgs

Well, I think that sports loyalties are different because you have something to follow, rather than just "x brand > y brand". Not to mention the fact that we all know the Braves are the best baseball team

Seeker

It surprises me how much these loyalties support our identities. Who are we without them?

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Ustwo

Chicago 57 29 .663

Atlanta 50 39 .562

I scoff at you and your inferior sports team.

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Grasshopper Green

This thread reminds me of a couple things that have happened to me. I know this guy who refuses to buy Chevrolet...nothing but Ford will do for him. He has a Tshirt that says "Chevy...the heartbreak of America" that he wears with pride and has even gone so far as to refuse rides from people driving Fords. I just don't get it.

I was at a party last weekend and someone had a Prada bag in the spare bedroom where all of us dropped off our stuff. I looked at it for a minute, and realized that a comparable bag could be purchased at Sears or Penney's for hundreds, if not thousands (I'm not up on my Prada prices) of dollars cheaper. Why buy something like that? Is it just to have that label? I can't think of any other reason. I realize that certain products (like jeans) have a difference in quality as far as lower end and higher end, but that just seems a little extreme to me.

I'm actually pretty brand loyal when it comes to certain things, but only because I'm allergic to a lot personal grooming products and stick to the ones that don't irritate my skin. I prefer Pepsi, but I've got two twelve packs of Coke in my fridge right now because they were what was on sale when I went shopping. The only case I cant think of in my own experience that I would shun a certain product would be products purchased from Walmart (I don't like the company, not the products it sells), but that is a whole other can of worms.

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analog

Had it in my head... and then I read this and said, "this is pretty much it, but with nicer words."

maleficent

Scoff away now, chicago will self destruct like they always do...

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Ishmal

i know a guy like that...

LOVES his Fords, HATES the Holdens(Australian brand almost identical to Ford)

i remember once he was drunk and the cops were hassling us to move along (looong time ago) he's refused saying he had the right to be there. so the police threatened to throw him in the back and take him to the station. hes just said

"fuck off, i'm not hopping into the Holden!"
"bring a Ford down here, i'll hop into that"
"your not taking me to the station in a Holden"

it was rather funny, the cop was pretty good. just told us to take him home.

i don't understand how he can be soo loyal!

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Glava

Holden is the Australian subsidiary of General Motors, so it can't be almost identical to Ford.