Good thing we have freedom of speech - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 05-24-2005, 03:40 PM

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/ncw...-8844302c.html

Quote:

FOREST CITY, N.C. -- A Baptist minister refuses to apologize for a church sign saying the Muslim holy book should be flushed.

"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said the Rev. Creighton Lovelace of Danieltown Baptist Church. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."

Seema Riley, a Muslim born in Pakistan and reared in New York, said she moved to Rutherford County, about 60 miles west of Charlotte, for the "small-town friendly" atmosphere.

The church sign reading, "The Koran needs to be flushed," angered her and made her feel threatened, she said.

"We need a certain degree of tolerance," Riley said. "That sign doesn't really reflect what I think this county is about."

The sign is an apparent reference to a recent Newsweek magazine article that said U.S. investigators found evidence that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay placed copies of Islam's holy book in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk.

The account has been blamed for protests in Afghanistan, where more than a dozen people died and scores were injured in rioting earlier this month, and demonstrations elsewhere in the Muslim world.

Lovelace said he expected the sign in front of his 55-member church to also stir anger in some people.

"If we stand for what is right and for God's word and for Christianity then the world is going to condemn us and so right away when I got a complaint I said, 'Well somebody's mad, somebody's offended, so we must be doing something right,'" Lovelace said.

Danieltown Baptist Church belongs to the Sandy Run Baptist Association. Each church in the association is autonomous, said the Rev. Jim Diehl, the group's director of missions.

"Each church can develop a stance on doctrinal issues and can develop its own stance on moral issues," he said.

When we're free to say whatever we want, it's easy to tell who to keep our kids away from.

I'm just disappointed that he doesn't have the balls to put his face on the sign so we can place some of the blame for religious hatred and intolerance. Anyone who would put up a sign like that is a bigot and should be run out of town by an angry mob. I expect that religious conflict and "holy wars" are going to be the big problem of the next few decades, if not centuries. Communism is on its way out and nobody seems to be concerned about the relatively benevolent (for now) Socialist movement that is dominating Europe, so the political conflicts are losing their place at the top of the list. Encouraging education about world religions is the only way to prevent violence from growing out of ignorance. Despite my opinion that the world would be much better off without religion, I know that it's here to stay and we have to learn to live together if we want to make any sort of progress.

TexanAvenger · 05-24-2005, 03:57 PM

One more thing that makes me love living in North Carolina....

If we're to quash this ridiculous ignorance of religion, and the following violence, maybe the biggest step we can take is in the education of our children. But good luck convincing the people around here that they should let their kids learn about any other religion....

Maybe someday... when the world is a more sane, rational place.

Daniel_ · 05-25-2005, 01:41 AM

What the hell happened to "Love thy Neighbour" and "Turn the Other Cheek"?

Or even "In my fathers house there are many mansions"?

Meh!

Seeker · 05-25-2005, 02:21 AM

I thought that with freedom of speech it would be more like..

"I think The Koran needs to be flushed," or
"We think The Koran needs to be flushed,"

They might believe it but I think they should at least 'own' it.
I wonder if it really makes much difference? To my reasoning, if someone said that they think something, I can think that I don't agree. To be told something is wrong when I think not, well I could get my defences up and a reaction happening.

jwoody · 05-25-2005, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

... Communism is on its way out and nobody seems to be concerned about the relatively benevolent (for now) Socialist movement that is dominating Europe...

Care to elaborate?

Are you saying European socialism is a thing you should be concerned about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Spartak · 05-25-2005, 02:51 AM

I guess he means Putin's stranglehold on the media.

In a way people prefer that sort of thing in Russia, many would trade certainty for freedom.

Glory's Sun · 05-25-2005, 05:57 AM

Gee, glad I'm in NC

<i>disclaimer not all of us in NC are this pathetic and ignorant kthanx</i>

I understand what this guy is trying to do as far as taking a hard nosed stance and pretend to be a backbone for his religion. Hopefully, it will backfire on him and he will be taken care of. (fired whatever). Also, iirc, Freedom Of Speech doesn't protect a direct insult to another person or group. (this should start a discussion heh) -- You can say what you want for the most part but most people don't realize that Freedom Of Speech isn't just some security blanket you can hide under whenever you think you screwed up. It may not be a criminal offense but it is a civil one. The ignorance that seems to be rearing it's ugly head lately is mindnumbing. I ask myself "Why can't people just realize we're all one big group?" When I think there's hope and a chance for people to see this, another bigot comes along and spouts his bullshit and tosses us further down. Sickening.

MooseMan3000 · 05-25-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

Care to elaborate?

Are you saying European socialism is a thing you should be concerned about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

I don't think that's what he was saying at all. Hence "benevolent" Socialist movement. If it turns sour, which everything has the potential to, then we'll take a look at it.

In regards to the initial article: I believe that religous conflict has been at the top of the list for a long time. It has taken a back seat for brief periods in recent years, but really only in the United States (and a few other select places). There are still lots of other places where people are killing each other because they don't agree on whose god has a bigger dick. Just because we haven't seen it here doesn't mean it's not alive and well.

Clearly, the only real solution is education, but when some doctrines - as an example, this Baptist church - maintain that even learning about other religions is blasphemous, how are we really going to proceed? Ban these doctrines? Obviously that's not the answer. Mandatory religious education? That wouldn't go over too well with liberals.

I think the place we really need to focus is in historical education. Teach people about the ideas in different religions without preaching them. Show them that intolerance has been the cause of lots of suffering, and will be if things don't change.

Of course, I still don't think any of this will work. I just don't have enough faith in humanity. They're all too fucking stupid.

powerclown · 05-25-2005, 12:24 PM

A fine example of ignorant, intolerant backwaters completely mutilating the spirit of the First Amendment.

Cynthetiq · 05-25-2005, 12:25 PM

there was a gent in So. Cal who put up a big giant picture of Pol Pot at his storefront.

people egged, broke windows, harassed him, but his right to free speech was protected by the police that made sure he could put up that picture. He didn't have much business but he was given free speech.

Hopefully the rest of his flock will see the hypocrisy of his intolerance vs what "the good book" preaches and leaves, but more than likely it won't happen.

BigBen · 05-25-2005, 01:23 PM

I wonder if this crusader of faith would allow a "Jesus is an Auto Mechanic, Liar and Lunatic" sign to be planted in his jurisdiction?

Would he be so willing to allow 1st amendment speech that angered him? I am guessing no, but I love to give people the benefit of the doubt!

Again, I said it in the thread about the Newsweek article, the Quran is a very serious deal to muslims. They do not take its desecration lightly. Western religions do not have a similar comparison.

Some people are willing to die for that book. How many Christians can say a similar thing? I honestly do not know of any.

When talking to a muslim friend, when they speak of Mohammed, they follow his name with a benevolent suffix, e.g. "Peace be upon him". It was confusing at first, but after a while I was impressed with the amount of faith they expressed. I felt almost guilty.

I believe that the American population (vast generalization here, caution) have replaced organized religion with nationalism. Certain cultures have their religious figures, crosses, popes, et cetera, and the US has its Constitution, Declaration of Independence and President.

Having said that, I don't think it is a bad thing... at least you believe in something.

Elphaba · 05-25-2005, 03:05 PM

In Washington state, this would be considered "hate" speech which is not protected by the First Amendment.

Ustwo · 05-25-2005, 03:11 PM

So how many of you were offended by 'Piss Christ'' and talked about the intolerance and ignorance there?

Psycho Dad · 05-25-2005, 03:44 PM

So it is not OK for this guy to make a statement on his views of islam this way? Did everyone who thinks this guy a bigot feel any disgust for the killing in the name of Allah over the Newsweek thing?

These terrorists (and I'm not going to qualify them by calling them insurgents) in Iraq and other places don't even see a problem with killing other Muslims so I see no point in condemning Creighton Lovelace because some people didn't like the medium he used to voice his message.

I sure liked the world a lot more when it wasn't so fashionable to be a self loathing American.

raeanna74 · 05-25-2005, 04:03 PM

I was raised Baptist. I am very ashamed of his behavior. They should know better. They're only looking to raise conflict. I cannot imagine ANYONE muslim or other who seeing an inflammatory statement such as that would want to know more about the gospel that those people teach. The statement was even quite tasteless. If you disapprove of what the Koran teaches then you should be allowed to say so but not in a way that is disrespectful of what people believe or have been taught to believe.

When I took a couple classes on public speaking, one of the first objectives of a public speaker was to gain the audiences support or approval. You can say a lot of things that they may not completely agree with if you "make friends" with them first. One of the goals that they have in Baptist churches and other churches as well is to bring in new believers. This will counteract that effort in a big way.

Opposition brought upon yourself by living your life in a way that agrees with your faith is something you can consider persecution. Opposition you receive by being inflammatory, attacking, and putting down others is simply criticism well deserved by your lack of respect for others.

I do believe most of the Baptist's basic beliefs. I do NOT support behavior like this and if it had been my church that had done this I would probably leave the church membership.

Mondak · 05-25-2005, 05:05 PM

Best thing I can think of to describe it:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
--H. L. Mencken

Willravel · 05-25-2005, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Creighton "The Ashole" Lovelace

"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said the Rev. Creighton Lovelace of Danieltown Baptist Church. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."

All sorts of wrong.

What kind of justification is "I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God"? When did God say that you should flush the Qu'ran?! Was that in Deutoronemy, or maybe Psalms?

Daniel_ is right. The bible teaches tolerance, pure and simple. This is a blatent act of intolerance. His act is contradictory to the teachings of his church.

wombatman · 05-25-2005, 07:15 PM

Just thought I'd throw in that my girlfriend lives about 2 miles from this church and went to school with the minister (who is apparently only 22 or so). For the record, she is NOT anything remotely like him in belief. She thinks he's a monstrous dipshit.

Edit: And PowerClown, just because the area is rural does not automatically equal all its people to being backwater. I take great pride in the fact that the aforementioned girlfriend is a University of South Carolina Honors College (avg. SAT score of 1400 in our class) Pharmacy major with a GPA of 3.9+. So let's not go around slinging generalizations, ok?

Ustwo · 05-26-2005, 05:46 AM

[rant]
The thing that annoys me, is that while so many people will be out raged by some preacher who puts up a sign, we as a society have come to expect and make excuses for far worse bigotry in the Muslim world. Try being Christian in any number of countries and see how you are treated. Its of course illegal in Saudi Arabia.

We have come to expect it and just accept it as 'their way' no matter how many corpses they pile up.

So shhhh don't offend the Muslims, they might kill more people!
[/rant]

Now of course I've opened myself up to the same type of position as this idiot preacher, but we have to have some intellectual honesty here. I have had far more exposure to middle eastern people then most people. I have open invitations from friends to visit Egypt and Jordan. I have spent countless hours talking politics and religion with Israelis's and Muslims from almost every nation. I bear them no ill will. What I can't stand is how we are so tolerant of intolerance in others. Its almost a form of biggotry in itself. A white preacher (and I am assuming he is white) should KNOW better but we can't expect the same from a Muslim, its just how they are.

When you get equally offended by mob violence causing 17 deaths due to a damn, potentially false, magazine article as you do to some rural road side sign let me know.

Lebell · 05-26-2005, 05:57 AM

Ustwo,

I don't see any inconsistency at all in people's position here.

I think people should be as tolerant of things like "Piss Christ" as they are of things like the image of a Koran in a toilet.

To me both are repugnant, but neither should be cause for killing and rioting.

The same goes for hate speech.

I do see a real inconsistency from the Muslim world however.

I just read an article on line that Saudi Arabia routinely destroys Bibles. This apparently happens to many evangelicals who are bringing them into the country. But how would they react if we did the same with Imams carrying Korans coming into the US?

I think we both know the answer.

So for me at least, I do NOT accept their intolerance and I think more people should speak out against it.

But I also don't see that it has anything to do with this particular case, except maybe to point out the inconsistancy some people have.

BigBen · 05-26-2005, 06:19 AM

For the third time, I must object!

You (the royal you, not anyone in particular) are again erroneously comparing the Quran to the Bible.

This is a false analogy. Please refrain.

The muslim faith believes that the Quran is more than a holy book. It has been given to them by GOD.

Christians (and dare I say, every other non-muslim) cannot appreciate this.

Christians believe that the Bible is a Holy book. Written by apostles. The word of the Lord is captured in the teachings. There are millions of copies of the Bible, in different forms (KJV, NIV, et cetera) that teach the rules of the christian faith. I do not dispute that.

Muslims believe that the book that they are holding, the very book that they can touch and turn the pages on, was given to them by GOD. Not the print shop where it was made, but by GOD's OWN HAND.

Okay. There is a very religious christian in Tulsa Oklahoma, who wakes up one morning and sees GOD in his bedroom. God says "Here, take this." and hands him a bible. Then GOD does that for every christian on earth. Would people then become murderously angry when that book was derecrated? I believe so.

Please, for the sake of clarity, I am officially begging here:
Stop comparing Christianity to Islamic beliefs. It does not translate well.

Lebell · 05-26-2005, 06:36 AM

Well, what about Mormons who believe God had his angel hand deliver the Book of Mormon?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Ustwo · 05-26-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen931

For the third time, I must object!

You (the royal you, not anyone in particular) are again erroneously comparing the Quran to the Bible.

This is a false analogy. Please refrain.

The muslim faith believes that the Quran is more than a holy book. It has been given to them by GOD.

Christians (and dare I say, every other non-muslim) cannot appreciate this.

Christians believe that the Bible is a Holy book. Written by apostles. The word of the Lord is captured in the teachings. There are millions of copies of the Bible, in different forms (KJV, NIV, et cetera) that teach the rules of the christian faith. I do not dispute that.

Muslims believe that the book that they are holding, the very book that they can touch and turn the pages on, was given to them by GOD. Not the print shop where it was made, but by GOD's OWN HAND.

Okay. There is a very religious christian in Tulsa Oklahoma, who wakes up one morning and sees GOD in his bedroom. God says "Here, take this." and hands him a bible. Then GOD does that for every christian on earth. Would people then become murderously angry when that book was derecrated? I believe so.

Please, for the sake of clarity, I am officially begging here:
Stop comparing Christianity to Islamic beliefs. It does not translate well.

I see.....

So at what age does god give them all their personal Quran?

Does he use recycled paper?

Does he own the websites for the online editions?

I know Muslims attempt to constantly reassure themselves the Quran is holy and miraculous, I've seen them do it many times myself. Its still a pisspoor excuse for murder and intolerance.

frogza · 05-26-2005, 07:37 AM

If this guy wanted to make a "statement supporting the word of God" he should have sone so. But he didn't, he instead bashed someone else. If he wanted to support God's word he should have said something along the lines of "The Bible is the word of God"

From what I can see of him, he is one of those christian fanatics that give the real christians a bad name. He suffers from what I call, religious low self esteem. The only way he feels he can assure his faiths dominance is to tear all the "threats" down, thereby leaving only his faith standing. Poor fool.

Cuatela · 05-26-2005, 10:28 AM

I agree this guy's methods are in much need of change, and that he really abused the right to free speech. There are much better ways of saying something like that without actually saying it, and directly accusatory statements shouldn't be put on church signs. Besides the fact that it is illegal (or should be), it also hurts the reputation of the entire church (and not just the minister). This guy should be fired.

raeanna74 · 05-26-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor226

This guy should be fired.

The man's congregation had to have supported this billboard for them to fund putting it up. Which unfortunately means that his congregation will not remove him from his pastorship or ask him to resign. Unless his church belongs to a Baptist organisation then sadly there's no one else who can fire him.

Ustwo · 05-26-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

The man's congregation had to have supported this billboard for them to fund putting it up. Which unfortunately means that his congregation will not remove him from his pastorship or ask him to resign. Unless his church belongs to a Baptist organisation then sadly there's no one else who can fire him.

I saw a picture of it and its not really a billboard, its one of those moble ones with the removable letters that would normally say something like 'Now Hiring' or 'Special on Milk'. I could 'fund' it with the money in my wallet right now for a rental I'm sure, so his congregation may have had nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't be shocked if they approved, but thats another issue.

wombatman · 05-26-2005, 01:41 PM

A quick update from the girlfriend:

There was yet another article in the local paper about it where he apologized after apparently "talking with God."

Yeah.

Bacchanal · 05-26-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Anyone who would put up a sign like that is a bigot and should be run out of town by an angry mob.
.................
we have to learn to live together if we want to make any sort of progress.

Now, while I don't agree at all with what the guy did, this seems very contradictory to me.

We don't have much left of the first amendment anyway, such a shame.

Rdr4evr · 05-26-2005, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So how many of you were offended by 'Piss Christ'' and talked about the intolerance and ignorance there

the piss christ was never meant to be offensive, but the complete opposite. it's just people didn't even bother to find out what the piss christ represented before jumping down serranos throat. this guy is not representing or displaying anything symbolic or of meaning, rather plain ignorance and intolerance.

Ustwo · 05-26-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

the piss christ was never meant to be offensive, but the complete opposite. it's just people didn't even bother to find out what the piss christ represented before jumping down serranos throat. this guy is not representing or displaying anything symbolic or of meaning, rather plain ignorance and intolerance.

Yes the deep symbolic meaning of a religous symbol in a jar of urine.

Deep man.

Rdr4evr · 05-26-2005, 06:35 PM

whether you agree with his method of expression or not is besides the point. the point is that it wasn't meant to be intolerant or ignorant, what the urine symolized to him was that of lifes vital fluids which he said gave "me a beautiful light". He is a catholic himself who was trying to get closer and more personal with his faith. urine, which most see as disgusting and dirty, he saw as the complete opposite, and those who trashed him for it and tried to ban his freedom of speech are the truly intolerant ones. also, i think there was a mixture of blood with the urine as well if i remember correctly.

ObieX · 05-26-2005, 07:17 PM

This minister is a young man. When he's older and wiser he may come to realize what he said was not in the best interest of God's word, and will have to live with this national headline in the back of his mind for the rest of his life. Maybe some good will come of it.

Cuatela · 05-27-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

The man's congregation had to have supported this billboard for them to fund putting it up. Which unfortunately means that his congregation will not remove him from his pastorship or ask him to resign. Unless his church belongs to a Baptist organisation then sadly there's no one else who can fire him.

That's not necessarily true. Most churches don't vote on "trivial" things like church sign messages. I know mine doesn't. This was most likely done by or under the sole direction of the minister. If such is the case, then the church should vote him out.

05-25-2005, 01:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	What the hell happened to "Love thy Neighbour" and "Turn the Other Cheek"? Or even "In my fathers house there are many mansions"? Meh! __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

05-25-2005, 02:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	I thought that with freedom of speech it would be more like.. "I think The Koran needs to be flushed," or "We think The Koran needs to be flushed," They might believe it but I think they should at least 'own' it. I wonder if it really makes much difference? To my reasoning, if someone said that they think something, I can think that I don't agree. To be told something is wrong when I think not, well I could get my defences up and a reaction happening. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

05-25-2005, 02:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	I guess he means Putin's stranglehold on the media. In a way people prefer that sort of thing in Russia, many would trade certainty for freedom. __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

05-25-2005, 12:25 PM	#10 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	there was a gent in So. Cal who put up a big giant picture of Pol Pot at his storefront. people egged, broke windows, harassed him, but his right to free speech was protected by the police that made sure he could put up that picture. He didn't have much business but he was given free speech. Hopefully the rest of his flock will see the hypocrisy of his intolerance vs what "the good book" preaches and leaves, but more than likely it won't happen. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-25-2005, 01:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	I wonder if this crusader of faith would allow a "Jesus is an Auto Mechanic, Liar and Lunatic" sign to be planted in his jurisdiction? Would he be so willing to allow 1st amendment speech that angered him? I am guessing no, but I love to give people the benefit of the doubt! Again, I said it in the thread about the Newsweek article, the Quran is a very serious deal to muslims. They do not take its desecration lightly. Western religions do not have a similar comparison. Some people are willing to die for that book. How many Christians can say a similar thing? I honestly do not know of any. When talking to a muslim friend, when they speak of Mohammed, they follow his name with a benevolent suffix, e.g. "Peace be upon him". It was confusing at first, but after a while I was impressed with the amount of faith they expressed. I felt almost guilty. I believe that the American population (vast generalization here, caution) have replaced organized religion with nationalism. Certain cultures have their religious figures, crosses, popes, et cetera, and the US has its Constitution, Declaration of Independence and President. Having said that, I don't think it is a bad thing... at least you believe in something. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-24-2005, 03:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
TexanAvenger Born-Again New Guy Location: Unfound.	One more thing that makes me love living in North Carolina.... If we're to quash this ridiculous ignorance of religion, and the following violence, maybe the biggest step we can take is in the education of our children. But good luck convincing the people around here that they should let their kids learn about any other religion.... Maybe someday... when the world is a more sane, rational place.

05-25-2005, 05:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Gee, glad I'm in NC <i>disclaimer not all of us in NC are this pathetic and ignorant kthanx</i> I understand what this guy is trying to do as far as taking a hard nosed stance and pretend to be a backbone for his religion. Hopefully, it will backfire on him and he will be taken care of. (fired whatever). Also, iirc, Freedom Of Speech doesn't protect a direct insult to another person or group. (this should start a discussion heh) -- You can say what you want for the most part but most people don't realize that Freedom Of Speech isn't just some security blanket you can hide under whenever you think you screwed up. It may not be a criminal offense but it is a civil one. The ignorance that seems to be rearing it's ugly head lately is mindnumbing. I ask myself "Why can't people just realize we're all one big group?" When I think there's hope and a chance for people to see this, another bigot comes along and spouts his bullshit and tosses us further down. Sickening.

05-25-2005, 12:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	A fine example of ignorant, intolerant backwaters completely mutilating the spirit of the First Amendment.

05-25-2005, 03:05 PM	#12 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	In Washington state, this would be considered "hate" speech which is not protected by the First Amendment.

05-25-2005, 03:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So how many of you were offended by 'Piss Christ'' and talked about the intolerance and ignorance there? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 05-25-2005 at 03:14 PM..

05-25-2005, 03:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	So it is not OK for this guy to make a statement on his views of islam this way? Did everyone who thinks this guy a bigot feel any disgust for the killing in the name of Allah over the Newsweek thing? These terrorists (and I'm not going to qualify them by calling them insurgents) in Iraq and other places don't even see a problem with killing other Muslims so I see no point in condemning Creighton Lovelace because some people didn't like the medium he used to voice his message. I sure liked the world a lot more when it wasn't so fashionable to be a self loathing American. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

05-25-2005, 04:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I was raised Baptist. I am very ashamed of his behavior. They should know better. They're only looking to raise conflict. I cannot imagine ANYONE muslim or other who seeing an inflammatory statement such as that would want to know more about the gospel that those people teach. The statement was even quite tasteless. If you disapprove of what the Koran teaches then you should be allowed to say so but not in a way that is disrespectful of what people believe or have been taught to believe. When I took a couple classes on public speaking, one of the first objectives of a public speaker was to gain the audiences support or approval. You can say a lot of things that they may not completely agree with if you "make friends" with them first. One of the goals that they have in Baptist churches and other churches as well is to bring in new believers. This will counteract that effort in a big way. Opposition brought upon yourself by living your life in a way that agrees with your faith is something you can consider persecution. Opposition you receive by being inflammatory, attacking, and putting down others is simply criticism well deserved by your lack of respect for others. I do believe most of the Baptist's basic beliefs. I do NOT support behavior like this and if it had been my church that had done this I would probably leave the church membership. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

05-25-2005, 05:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mondak Industrialist Location: Southern California	Best thing I can think of to describe it: "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." --H. L. Mencken __________________ All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as self-evident. ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

05-25-2005, 07:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	Just thought I'd throw in that my girlfriend lives about 2 miles from this church and went to school with the minister (who is apparently only 22 or so). For the record, she is NOT anything remotely like him in belief. She thinks he's a monstrous dipshit. Edit: And PowerClown, just because the area is rural does not automatically equal all its people to being backwater. I take great pride in the fact that the aforementioned girlfriend is a University of South Carolina Honors College (avg. SAT score of 1400 in our class) Pharmacy major with a GPA of 3.9+. So let's not go around slinging generalizations, ok? Last edited by wombatman; 05-25-2005 at 07:19 PM..

05-26-2005, 05:46 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	[rant] The thing that annoys me, is that while so many people will be out raged by some preacher who puts up a sign, we as a society have come to expect and make excuses for far worse bigotry in the Muslim world. Try being Christian in any number of countries and see how you are treated. Its of course illegal in Saudi Arabia. We have come to expect it and just accept it as 'their way' no matter how many corpses they pile up. So shhhh don't offend the Muslims, they might kill more people! [/rant] Now of course I've opened myself up to the same type of position as this idiot preacher, but we have to have some intellectual honesty here. I have had far more exposure to middle eastern people then most people. I have open invitations from friends to visit Egypt and Jordan. I have spent countless hours talking politics and religion with Israelis's and Muslims from almost every nation. I bear them no ill will. What I can't stand is how we are so tolerant of intolerance in others. Its almost a form of biggotry in itself. A white preacher (and I am assuming he is white) should KNOW better but we can't expect the same from a Muslim, its just how they are. When you get equally offended by mob violence causing 17 deaths due to a damn, potentially false, magazine article as you do to some rural road side sign let me know. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

05-26-2005, 05:57 AM	#20 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Ustwo, I don't see any inconsistency at all in people's position here. I think people should be as tolerant of things like "Piss Christ" as they are of things like the image of a Koran in a toilet. To me both are repugnant, but neither should be cause for killing and rioting. The same goes for hate speech. I do see a real inconsistency from the Muslim world however. I just read an article on line that Saudi Arabia routinely destroys Bibles. This apparently happens to many evangelicals who are bringing them into the country. But how would they react if we did the same with Imams carrying Korans coming into the US? I think we both know the answer. So for me at least, I do NOT accept their intolerance and I think more people should speak out against it. But I also don't see that it has anything to do with this particular case, except maybe to point out the inconsistancy some people have. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 05-26-2005 at 06:02 AM..

05-26-2005, 06:19 AM	#21 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	For the third time, I must object! You (the royal you, not anyone in particular) are again erroneously comparing the Quran to the Bible. This is a false analogy. Please refrain. The muslim faith believes that the Quran is more than a holy book. It has been given to them by GOD. Christians (and dare I say, every other non-muslim) cannot appreciate this. Christians believe that the Bible is a Holy book. Written by apostles. The word of the Lord is captured in the teachings. There are millions of copies of the Bible, in different forms (KJV, NIV, et cetera) that teach the rules of the christian faith. I do not dispute that. Muslims believe that the book that they are holding, the very book that they can touch and turn the pages on, was given to them by GOD. Not the print shop where it was made, but by GOD's OWN HAND. Okay. There is a very religious christian in Tulsa Oklahoma, who wakes up one morning and sees GOD in his bedroom. God says "Here, take this." and hands him a bible. Then GOD does that for every christian on earth. Would people then become murderously angry when that book was derecrated? I believe so. Please, for the sake of clarity, I am officially begging here: Stop comparing Christianity to Islamic beliefs. It does not translate well. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-26-2005, 06:36 AM	#22 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Well, what about Mormons who believe God had his angel hand deliver the Book of Mormon? Put that in your pipe and smoke it! __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-26-2005, 07:37 AM	#24 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	If this guy wanted to make a "statement supporting the word of God" he should have sone so. But he didn't, he instead bashed someone else. If he wanted to support God's word he should have said something along the lines of "The Bible is the word of God" From what I can see of him, he is one of those christian fanatics that give the real christians a bad name. He suffers from what I call, religious low self esteem. The only way he feels he can assure his faiths dominance is to tear all the "threats" down, thereby leaving only his faith standing. Poor fool.

05-26-2005, 10:28 AM	#25 (permalink)
Cuatela Insane Location: NC, USA	I agree this guy's methods are in much need of change, and that he really abused the right to free speech. There are much better ways of saying something like that without actually saying it, and directly accusatory statements shouldn't be put on church signs. Besides the fact that it is illegal (or should be), it also hurts the reputation of the entire church (and not just the minister). This guy should be fired. __________________ Any sarcasm was intentional.

05-26-2005, 01:41 PM	#28 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	A quick update from the girlfriend: There was yet another article in the local paper about it where he apologized after apparently "talking with God." Yeah.

05-26-2005, 06:35 PM	#32 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	whether you agree with his method of expression or not is besides the point. the point is that it wasn't meant to be intolerant or ignorant, what the urine symolized to him was that of lifes vital fluids which he said gave "me a beautiful light". He is a catholic himself who was trying to get closer and more personal with his faith. urine, which most see as disgusting and dirty, he saw as the complete opposite, and those who trashed him for it and tried to ban his freedom of speech are the truly intolerant ones. also, i think there was a mixture of blood with the urine as well if i remember correctly.

05-26-2005, 07:17 PM	#33 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	This minister is a young man. When he's older and wiser he may come to realize what he said was not in the best interest of God's word, and will have to live with this national headline in the back of his mind for the rest of his life. Maybe some good will come of it. __________________ We Must Dissent.