Strawberry69666

I believe that choice is what makes humans a different type of animal. So in taking away the right to make a decision like that makes us no better then anything else. We, as people, make choices. Some are good, some are bad. I know great people who have had abortions, and they did it for a good reason. Like not having the right things to have a happy life for a child. If we make abortion illegal, what about all the children that are going to be found in garbage cans? Then, all the illegal ones that are preformed because you can't get someone good to do it for you. Females can die if the procedure is done wrong. So...what is the point of making it illegal again?

muttt

btw, what i've always found unique and interesting about the abortion debate is that there's no middle ground.

i mean, we'd all like to see women be able to make choices about their own bodies.

but if you believe that a fertilized egg is (or soon becomes) a life, and thus that abortion is murder, you can't allow murder in the name of "choice."

which means that there's no middle ground. which is pretty unique, no?

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darksparkles

my exact stance on it.

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PorscheBunny

Unlike most of the posters in this thread, I am a mother. I am Pro-Choice, and I plan to never be in a position in which I need to make The Choose.

As far as I'm concerned, when "life" begins is irrelevant to the issue. The question is when "humanity" begins. It's not illegal to kill an animal, and an animal is very much alive. It's not always illegal to kill a human, self-defense being the best known example of this.

When Helen began moving in response to external stimuli, that's when I would say she became human, and that was during the sixth month.

Third-trimester abortions need justification IMHO, mother's life in case, rape or incest, etc. Second-trimester ones put my teeth on edge; I think the would-be mother should have made the decision sooner, but the abortion should still be legal.

BTW, the Bible doesn't say when life begins.

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oane

Abortion should be allowed, but not encouraged. It is not a birth control measure. Don't want babies, use condoms, pills etc.

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Jesus Pimp

What if you are woman/young girl who got raped? Would you like to have the child of your rapist?

Eating chicken eggs are denying chickens from existing.

Religion has a lot to do with shaping people's morals/values. Simple human values different from religion to religion or lack of religion.

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StnkyMnky

Passive eugenics. MMMMmmm. I have a hard time taking a stance on this issue. Personally I see nothing wrong with removing the fetus while it is simply a lump of cells. When it is actually formed into a being with a developed nervous system it is hard for me to say it is an ok practice (just because it is my belief that when it reaches that point it is a person). I think that everyone needs to follow their conscience. If someone feels ok with having an abortion, who's right is it to stop them? Not mine that is for sure.

Slims

If my girlfriend were to get pregnant, I would stand behind her unconditionally, whatever she chose.

However, I think she should have the right to choos abortion.

I also feel that it is perfectly ok to be pro life, and not get one, just don't go telling other people what they can or can't do.

Also, couldn't you save more lives by helping people who are already alive and being persecuted?

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Sun Tzu

I feel it should be legal, but the method of destroying the fetus as its being born is questionable in my eyes. Im a male so I really can't totally relate to what a female goes through in considering that, but it would seem the first trimester is plenty enough time to decide. When brain waves are able to be measured I think second thoughts should be gathered. For various reasons it is ultimately up to the female.

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zf0enix

This is another difficult issue for me. I used to be a staunch anti-abortion person, but since I've matured (or at least become more cynical) I've learned that there is never a black-white answer. I think it should stay legal if for nothing else, then for the women who would put themselves in greater danger by having it done anyway.

I also think the government/schools should promote sex education and ensure kids have access to contraception. Also that health insurance companies should cover the expense of bc pills, or other methods (those that don't already).

Some days, though, I think who cares? If the mother is even considering an abortion, it most likely means the child wouldn't be wanted anyway, right? Why force another unloved, rejected child into the world. I know there are many happy stories about adoptions, but there are also many unhappy ones.

Some of the other comments above brought up another issue: Euthanasia. What's so wrong with that for that matter? Why force someone to live as a vegetable or endure years of agonizing pain? Just pull the plug, end the suffering and save money. Economics, I think, would favor both options.

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davidc209

Many anti abortion people here have conceded that an abortion means removing a bunch of flesh with a potential to be something living. That's the point.. the thing being removed is NOT being killed. There's no life there, just the potential for life. Abortion should absolutely be legal and be made an option. Not all people who seek abortions are miscreants who didn't use birth control. If a woman is raped and gets pregnant she should NOT have to carry that child. If a woman gets pregnant and knows she can not care for the child (financially or emotionally), why should the child have to suffer????

The_Dude

to all the people that are opposed to killing a potential life, every time you jack off, you're killing MILLIONS of potential life!


when you abort a baby, the baby goes thru MUCH less pain (if it even feels any) than when you hunt.


it's OK to kill another living them for FUN and not OK to kill a fetus that cant even feel pain for reasons that are way beyond fun?


anyway, IF the woman chose not to go thru the 9 months and the delivery (for whatever reasons), you shouldnt make her do anything she doesnt want.

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zf0enix

That doesn't really seem to be the same thing. An egg and sperm individually cannot develop into a fetus. But a fertilized egg is a zygote, which, barring outside or environmental factors, will become a fetus.

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Zello

I'm kinda on the fence about this whole topic. The government shouldn't have control over such a personal issue. There are obviously some reasons that I think an abortion is acceptable. I still see an abortion as taking away a chance to experience and learn everything in this world. I can't say for sure but i'm just about positive if I got someone pregnant I would encourage her all the way to keep the baby.

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zmbabwe

Abortion should be legal, and parents who oppose it shouldn't get one.

Loki

if i was in that position, then yes, i would have the kid, and give him/her up for adoption. Why? because im denying a human life otherwise.


chickens are not humans =)



And yes, i do agree with you, your upbringing, and therefore the religion you are bought up in do play a huge part in the creation of your values. But i was kinda talking about generic human values... ie dont kill another human =)

a1t3r3g0

I just had to do a research paper on it, so I'll throw my two cents in.

Basically, I think it needs to be kept legal. Women have been having abortions all through out history, even in places where it is illegal and a severe sin. In places where it was/is illegal, it is hard and expensive for a woman to find a qualified person to perform one. This would lead most to go to someone who may not be qualified, and who's tools and methods may not be safe, causing many more deaths of the mothers.

After researching the methods of abortion, my views have changed slightly from what they used to be. While I still want it to be the woman's right to choose, I'd rather them not have an abortion, short of taking drugs (such as RU-486) at an extremely early period in their pregnancy.

People often bring up cases of rape and incest. Some women do still carry the child, however, most don't. This right here, I believe, proves that keeping abortion legal is not necessarily a bad thing, because with the woman's right to choose, it means that she can choose to have the baby, even in such "extreme" cases as these.

That's really just a short overview of what I wrote.. my whole paper was like 11 pages, and I won't bore you with that

a1t3r3g0

Also, I must say that it is widely accepted and scientificly supported that sperm is not capable of forming life on it's own, so masturbation really can't be considered destruction of life. Also, when a man does ejaculate in a woman, he releases hundreds of millions of sperm, yet the woman's own body works so hard to kill off most of it. This is why people with low sperm count have trouble getting women pregnant.

Science is also coming up with new ways to support a fetus to full life at earlier stages of pregnancy. I see this having an impact on the laws that state when in pregnancy a woman can have an abortion. If a fetus can be successfully developed outside of the mothers womb, then it's hard to argue that an abortion should be allowed and/or performed.

digiprof

"A woman?s body is her own decision. Period"
This part of the debate is most unctuous. It precludes the biological father?s decision in the matter, and also when looked at most literally also includes decisions and ethics concerning drug use and suicide. All of which I am in support of, the right of an individuals right to choose. But it is imperative to use non-jingoistic language for such a debate.

bubbaspike

If you know your pregnate and don't want the baby, get the abortion done right away. I am not in favor of late term abortion unless the mother is at risk.

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John_Gault

As mutt pointed out earlier, abortion is not an issue which should involve the federal courts at all, either pro or con.

If it is to be made illegal (remember that laws do not tell us what we can do, but define what we can not do), it must be made so by the states.

The arguement at hand (and the only valid one for making it illegal) is that it damages the fetus and that the fetus is a human life, which would be a criminal offense and as such would be restricted by a state law. There is no United States law against killing people. If you bash someone's skull in, your case will never ever be heard by the United States Supreme Court. If you kill a pregnant woman you will not be charged with any crime by the United States, but you will be charged with two - count them two - murders (no matter how far along the pregnancy nor the woman's stance on abortion) by the State in which the crime was commited.

Roe v. Wade should be abolished as the unconstitutional aboination of justice it is and make the citizens of the individual states exercise their constitutional duties and decide whether they consider it criminal behavior. The federal government has no business or authority telling the people of any state that they can't make something illegal if they want to. If the people of a state want to, by virtue of those they elect to state office, make public nose picking a crime they absolutely have that right. Same should go for abortion.

Yes, that does mean that some states will outlaw it completely (Utah, I'm looking at you) and some states would put no restrictions on it (California) but most would fall somewhere in between. That sounds like a messy situation and it is, but that's why we have separate states in the first place.

Now don't you all feel better now that I have solved the worlds problems for you?

In case you are wondering, I'm a tweener. There are some cases when it is absolutely justafiable and some cases when it just ain't.
If you are impregnated by consentual sex knowing full well you could get pregnant and just change your mind after seven months you're shit out of luck. You can't go around killing things just because they get in your way. Most places make it illegal to do that even to cats.

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muttt

i've never understood the rape/incest exception. not that all anti-abortions folks believe in that exception, but the majority that I've come into contact with do believe in those exceptions.

Isn't that a shade inconsistent to avow that abortion is murder but then sanction murder in some situations?

I happen to believe that for most of pregnancy, it's not a viable life. But if I took the opposite view, I'm not so sure I would allow those exceptions.

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muttt

Hey, I did say that, earlier:

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boatin

who was it that said "if men could have babies, abortion would be sacrosanct?"

Just feels relevent to me... I agree with zmiley's comment earlier:

.

The other thing that I would add is that I was always a staunch pro choice person...until I had a child. Now my heart melts at the thought. Doesn't change my mind, but it adds shades of grey that I didn't know were there before.

John_Gault

Mutt, I stand corrected. Sorry I didn't give you credit where it was due.

f00sion

I just can't believe all those women that flush potential humans down the toilet each and every month.

and people who say it is only ok in cases of rape are retarded. It wouldn't be enough for the girl to say she was raped, you would have to catch the suspected rapist, put him on trial, find him guilty, and then she can have an abortion... of course by now the kid is like 3 years old, then what?

keep it safe, legal.

KillerYoda

I've always been cool with the early kind, but the late ones where they sucks out the fetus brain is just wrong.

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blowbubbles

i just read the post about the soldiers stealing money in iraq....i was shocked by how many people were outraged by these soldiers stealing 'from the people of iraq'...anyway, i was feeling impressed with the morality of TFP....then, i saw this thread. i think the contrast is startling: when someone takes money, everyone is outraged...when someone takes a life? indifferent. if it is a womans choice, when should that choice end? shouldn't she (or the father) be allowed to terminate the child as long as she (he) is legally responsible for it, then? after all, its her house. i go one step furthur than most pro-lifers, in believing that abortion is never justifide: not in rape, not in deformity, not in convinience. who is to judge who should or shouldnt be given a chance? im not...i dont think any one else is, either

Mael

Makes perfect sense to me, how else would you explain Jeebus?

All kidding aside, I think it should be legal. Being a guy, I'd prefer not to have any kids born because of me before me and my wife (whomever she will one day be) are ready. Accidents happen, and i think it's better than bringing an unwanted child into the world who's parents aren't necissarily ready/willing to love and support it, and who may not be able to financially support themselves, let alone a baby.

The only problem I have with abortion is when it is used as birth control, the way a condom or the pill is. If an accident occurs, fine, get one. But one of my friends friends (really, no joke) has had six, or so i've been told, and that's just wrong. It's irresponsible. I gosh darn don't like it.

Jesus Pimp

"God" didn't create abortion for no reason..

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mew

I think it should be kept legal. Ive had a close call when my bf put the condom on backwards and it broke...I hoping that I would be able to find an abotion clinic if I needed to. I know hospitals do..my mothers hospital does..and she told me that theres this one girl who had like 8 abortions already! Im surprised she could still get pregnant. People like her shouldnt be able to have that option, but if she were to have a child..shed prob sell it or kill it by neglect or worse...But what about women who get raped and pregnant?Ive read stories where a woman had that child and gave it up for adoption..the child turned out fine, but waht about those who make the world worse for others? I would like the option of abortion to stay open and from threats of those who oppose. Though how do you control people from abusing this choice.

jets

Abortion is murder IMO.

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Double D

Yes, with abstinence being the only one that's 100% effective.

Double D

Abortion is not murder. And until men can get pregnant, they should have NO say whether a woman chooses to carry the fruit of their loins or not. Over the childbearing years, many women have to resort to abortion at least once. Just as aside, it is not an easy choice to destroy one's potential child. Many women quietly mourn the death throughout their lives.

Burninator

I think abortion should be legal, not because of woman's rights but in fact for the rights of the child and cause it is what is best for the child. Someone would only consider an abortion in an extreme case. These people don't want a child and are unfit to be parents (for whatever the reason is). A child should be entitled to be born into a family (even if it is just a single parent) that cares about them and will take care of them. Why should a child have to suffer a life of misery for the mistakes of its parents? Yes, there are probably some exceptions in which the child could turn out to have a normal life but those are exceptions not the rule. I think most of these children if forced to be born will have a miserable and unhappy life. Adoption would be a could alternate, however there are already too few people willing to adopt.

l_o_c

I'm for keeping abortion legal.

What's interesting about abortion to me, is the way it's marketed. Very few issues are in constant debate as guns and abortions. Each are really a more symbolic fight than a real fight-how many people lobbying for the rights of women to have an abortion will have one themselves? It's not going to be, contrary to the image, the clean cut business woman who terminates the pregnancy because she wants a career. It's going to be the bum who smokes crack and doesn't want to get sober, so she terminates it.

So, who's pushing it? Religion. Religion has found something very marketable in abortion. The same way the gun issue takes hold in the south, religion has got abortion. Religion simplifies abortion-God knows the future of the baby, and by killing it, you interefere with his plan. Of course, this assumes that God has a plan that humans can mess up.

But I digress...so they claim it's murder. But it's really on the fence. I believe both sides genuinely believe what they are saying. I believe that the people picketting outside abortion clinics honestly believe it's murder. And I believe the people who fight just as hard to keep those rights feel that it's a right women deserve. I believe the people that maybe a little shady are preachers who use it as a way of getting money.

My ultimate point is that these symbolic fights are often waged to the detriment of the bigger picture. The bigger picture, in both the gun and abortion fights, is for the goverment to give people as many freedoms as possible. I hope people remember that.

DEI37

I'm a firm Pro-Lifer. Why? That child has no say...the parents did. He either could have worn a condom, or just flat not stuck his cock in her. She could have been on the pill, or used something else. They are responsible, completely.
Now, there are extenuating circumstances, where one or both of the lives (mother or baby) are at severe risk. In that case, I'm not opposed. There has to be some sort of common sense involved.
By the way, extenuating circumstances do NOT include a birth defect, a child born from her cheating, or a few others I can't think of right now. Possibles would be a rape. Although, even then, I would advise to carry it, and then put it up for adoption. I would advise adoption anyways, as there are plenty of good people out there that can't have kids.

One more thing...in what I've read so far (the first page on my screen), this has stayed calm. That's great. We can agree to disagree on stuff. There's not a whole lot of point in getting heated over things. Thanks for that...let's keep it up.

Daval

I think that abortion should be allowed in special cases. ie. victims of violence, medical conditions, and other extreme circumstances.

However, I am highly against using abortion as a method of birth control.

I know someone who has had 5 abortions in the last 4 years because - 'she didnt like using the pill or condoms'

I have no respect for that at all.

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SiN

<- Pro-Choice.

why?

for me is less of a women's rights issue as it is hmm, reasoning similar to sixate's.

and i suppose partly children's rights thing, just because i think there's too much risk that an unwanted child will somehow suffer in their upbringing..whether it be abuse or neglect or poverty or whatever else.

one more thing - Abortion Prevention is so important, and by that i do *NoT* necessarily mean abstinance...

effective birth control should be available to ALL. easily obtainable & free if necessary.

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Double D

But do you realize how rare it is statistically for women to do that? That majority of women who have abortions, have only one in their lifetime; a smaller though not insignificant percentage have two. The number then drops to a small minority that have more than two abortions. Why focus on extremes?

If men could get pregnant, we wouldn't even be debating this topic. It would be a given that it would be legal and accessible.