Weight prejudice on the TFP.... - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cowman · 03-05-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

Cowman: Are you a nutritionist? Your post sounds to me like an amalgam of every diet book on the market currently. Who said I only eat veggies? I said that we eat alot of tomatoes, garlic and olive oil, not that that's all we eat. They are accompaniments to lean meats like Talapia, ground Sirloin, shrimp, chicken or turkey breast. We prefer Italian or "mediterranean" dishes, of which the aforementioned ingredients play a big part in.

I did not say I eat one meal a day, I said I eat 1 1/2 meals a day, which was a slip on my part. My family has always called lunch a "half" meal because breakfast and dinner were the main meals of the day. You load up in the morning, sate your appetite midday and then satisfy your hunger in the evening. Can you tell me what the sense is in eating breakfast only to ralph it up 15 minutes later? No nutrients are being absorbed and I have to deal with being sick every morning. No thank you, I gave up on breakfast when this started a couple of years ago (and I love the "typical" breakfast foods, whether it's bacon, oatmeal, cereal, bagels, eggs, yogurt, etc.). Do you know something my doctor doesn't that would allow me to keep food down in the morning? I can't eat breakfast but I eat lunch (the 1/2 meal but for me is a full meal) and dinner.

My hubby has the same thing happen to him if he eats later than 9 at night and he is as thin as a rail and healthy. I've had tests, all normal. I know what a calorie deficit is. I use a computer program everyday to track my fat intake, calorie intake, calories burned, etc.... I have been excercising (as previously stated) to the best of my ability and I think losing 50 lbs. in a healthy amount of time is an accomplishment. I know that muscle burns more calories than fat, and no, I am not losing, but gaining muscle. Why are you so eager to point a finger at me without knowing anything factual and not paying attention to what I've said?

I paid attention to what you said, but you continue to backpeddle and try and change your original statements to "defend" yourself.

Personally, I don't care. This argument means nothing to me, because YOU are the one who is overweight and has problems. This example of you trying to justify eating 1 and "1 half" meals a day (or was it 2 meals a day, or 5? I don't know, I really can't understand because you continue to try and change what you've already said) is probably indicative of what you do to yourself: you try and justifiy your eating habits as healthy, when in reality they obviously arn't( based on A) how you've said you eat and B) what you've said your current health status is ).

As for the whole "weight prejudice on TFP"..well..I can respect someone's opinions and thoughts and still call that person fat. There's nothing malicious about saying "you're fat"; its a reality. It's like saying, you have 5 fingers. If you're fat you're fat, that's life and if you don't want to be called fat then stop making excuses and lose said fat.

I was fat once, and it bothered me a lot. I was made fun of and had a really tough time. But the problem was MINE, not other peoples.

xepherys · 03-06-2005, 07:21 PM

Ali-

I'm not really sure what your beef is? First of all, not everyone who is overweight has either physical OR emotional problems? I used to be overweight, and was so simply because I loved food and was too lazy to do much. I joined the army and got in shape. *shrug*

Next, having previously been overweight, having been a nerd or geek growing up, and generally just not following the status quo, I have to give the typical advice. Words, whether written or spoken, can't hurt you unless you let them. If someone says you're fat, and you assume they are shallow, who cares? If someone says you're fat, and they're just a dick... who cares? Why would you care what these people think? If someone called me a stupid asshole fucktard, it doesn't even phase me. What weight do words like that actually hold?

Lastly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion... "acceptable" or not. Political correctness is SO much a socialist endeavor. If I don't like black jewish gays, and I want to have a black jewish gay hate club, the United States of America is the one place, if any, in the world I should be allowed to have such a thing (I don't really hate them... the 2 that there may be that actually exist). Why is there such a serious concern with what other people say or think? If someone physically assaulted you because you were overweight, that would be over the line. If someone calls you a name... or even still, calls someone ELSE a name, getting offended is just a personal weakness.

Sorry to go on a rant, but I just find posts like too much of a soapbox.

xepherys · 03-06-2005, 07:29 PM

On a side note, my wife is relatively thin. My son's mom was also relatively thin. My ex-girlfriend was a little bit bigger (size 14, not huge). Her "weight" didn't make a difference. the biggest thing that was a problem for our relationship was her poor self image. Maybe THAT'S something that turns guys off about overweight women. I don't know if this holds true in your case as I don't know you at all... but sometimes there's more to a stereotype than meets the eye.

Also, anyone with any psychology education knows that it's human nature to group, judge and react. It's how we operate. Even the Ghandi among us judge... he just happened to judge postively on everyone. You yourself are judging someone to be shallow because they don't find overweight females attractive. Frankly, I think chubby girls can be fantastically cute. I also think that overweight guys are generally exceptionally unattractive. Maybe that's because I was in that boat once and hated it. My judgement is clouded by my own previous shortcomings. If I, instead, thought girls over a size 2 were disgusting, due to my own internal struggles with previous weight gain, would I still be shallow?

RCAlyra2004 · 03-09-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

However, I have held my tongue for too long. Yes, I am "obese". Although I am quite overweight, I am not "grossly obese". Medically I would just be considered "morbidly" obese, although I carry my weight pretty well.

Ali,

I feel for you. I have seen much of what you are mentioning here in the media and from freinds and co-workers. I was genuinly surprised that you mentioned it about the TFP.. but that could be cause I missed it entirely. and that is just as sad.

Here is my experience:

One day a Lady at work (who was sort of thin but had gained a bit of weight recently) told all fo her co-workers that she was tired of being ugly and she was going on a diet. At the moment that she said it I witnessed two of our heavier co-workers get up and leave. One was shaking her head and the other in tears. My freind had inappropriately expressed what was actually an innocent " I need to lose weight" comment.

Having looked around I can see that we have done the same here... comments like "Oooh look at that flat belly"... or "look at those long slender legs...mmmm" . What was meant as a word of admiration can actually be hurtful to someone who isn't like that. the pain is genuine

Let me say that I don;t like judgeing people for what they look like. when I read your posting I was moved to tears because I realised that we had made it harder for you to see the beautiful person that you are.

I hope you accept my humble apology

RCA

pig · 03-09-2005, 07:51 PM

Ali et al,

I read this post the whole way through, and then took a little time to think about it. I've been heavier, I've been lighter, I've got family with weight problems, etc. I'm not going to address a lot of the health-related issues, or really even the discussion of skier and company on the role/necessity of stereotypes in social interactions - although I think it's an interesting topic. Maybe later. What I will say is this:

I really hate the fact that you have taken offense at comments posted here on the forum. While I agree that ultimately one's emotional state and sensitivity to one's environment is, technically, within that individual's control (I'm not arguing this here - maybe elsewhere - it's just my personal belief); I always hate to see people's feelings get hurt, and I think that's the root situation here. It seems that the comments you have taken offense to are rarely directly aimed at specific people, but are the results of ingrained perceptions, etc. Without arguing the merits of these perceptions, I would only like to say that I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a world where no one is offended. I think it would stifle too much freedom of thought and speech, and would cut down way too much on the amount of levity we have in expressing ourselves - whether in anger, indignation, or humor. No matter what a person says, it's probably going to offend someone. I don't think it's possible to have a forum with any true amount of diversity and expect that you (general you) will not be offended by some of the comments, whether it be concerning politics, religion, or the type of situation at hand involving questions of social perception.

As far as my own perception of overweight people, the only perception I think I truly form when I meet them is the following : if a pack of wild, ravenous hyenas comes racing down the hall, I might just be ok, via the "I don't have to be the fastest guy on the planet, just faster than that guy" theory. No offense to anyone, but them's the facts. Other than that, I really don't think I give a flip.

lindseylatch · 03-09-2005, 08:20 PM

I would say that it's not about weight, it's about HEALTH.
There was a study done, and I totally wish I remember who did it, but it was quoted in my health class. They found that "fat," fit people lived longer than "skinny," unfit people. Fitness was measure by resting heart rate, oxygen consumption, etc.
I'm slightly overweight, but my bigger problem is my poor health. I have asthma, so my cardio vascular health sucks, and I could definitely use some muscular work. I'm a lot more concerned about that than the ten pounds I could loss.
And I'd like to admit that I definitely have a prejudice about obese people, particularly morbidly obese people. I fight it when i notice it, but I can hear it whispering to me even now.

billege · 03-09-2005, 11:59 PM

Wait just a second here RCAlyra2004.

You're telling me if I were to say "Those are nice XXXX" in reference to a picture of a thin woman, it's hurtfult to someone who does not have those qualities I'm referring to?

Well, screw that sideways.
(The rest of my post NOT even remotely directed to you, RCAlyra2004)

If my expression of what I find attrative offends someone, who is not my idea of attractive, they need to take their fucked up emotional baggage and go somewhere with it.

I'm not an in shape guy. I have some extra pounds.
I'm comfortable with that.
When my wife opines that Vin Deisel is hot, I don't go off and cry in the corner BECUASE I DON'T HAVE A FUCKED UP SELF-IMAGE.

My opinion on this whole mess of a thread:

I don't see anyone calling "fatass" on the board, so I think the original poster is expressing more internal emotional issues than fact. Quote, or link me to, ONE post on the board where a member posted negatively about a pic of another member and didn't get some form of repremand to show me wrong. SHOW ME one post in Exhibition where "YOU FAT SLOB" was posted and left to stay. I have never seen that kind of behavior tolerated here.

Heathly eating habits are just that. You have them, and aren't obese, or you DON'T have them and are. I don't give a shit what you eat. I have mediocre eating habits and a non-active lifestyle. I have at least 20lbs I could lose, and my blood pressure is high. I need to work out more, and eat better. But you know what? I'm not taking my insecurities out on women who think Brad Pitt is hot.

I don't give one second's thought to anyone who is so emotionally weak that my comment, on what *I* consider is attractive, cripples their emotional state. (or maybe I do, since I posted; but, I have personal reasons to respond, so maybe not. I'll have to think about why I did.)

You think you see "lookism" or some shit on the TFP? Fine, you think so.
Did you also notice you live in the USA? One of the most fucked up societies when it comes to the ideals of beauty, compounded with a screwed up food culture? WE ALL have issues about food and weight, you ain't the first, and you won't be the last.

If I meet a fat girl, I either am, or am not, attracted to her. Some skinny girls, I see nothing attractive. Some fat girls, I see nothing attractive. SOME fat girls I see, and am attracted. SOME skinny girls I see, and am attracted. Either way, I don't much care if you can't handle what *I* like, and what I don't.

Nor do I grant anyone the right to control what I can express about such things.

I'd never say to someone "Boy, you're just a big fat fuck, aren't you?" because it's not my place to judge. People are how they are, and they have a right to be that way. It's not mine to judge, control, or decide someone's life for them.

You want to be HOWEVER you are? That's fine with me, unless you've decided to be a murderer and you're after me with an axe. But do me a favor, be COMFORTABLE with how you are and spare me the whole "I am comfortable, but whine whine whine" bit.

xepherys · 03-10-2005, 09:05 AM

billeage-

More or less my feelings exactly. Sadly, living in the USA is also where this political correctness crap has really settled in mainstream. Fat people, ugly people, thing people, beautiful people, everyone thinks they have some right to be perfect in EVERYONE's eyes, or at least that anyone who doesn't feel that way should never even look in their general direction. It's called freedom of thought and freedom of speech people. Seriously, these rules have worked for the past 200+ years in this country, why the hell are we reneging on them now?

There was a story (if I can find it, I'll link it) a while back where a teacher got suspended and I believe fired for using the word "niggardly" in class.

Main Entry: nig·gard·ly
Pronunciation: -lE
Function: adjective
1 : grudgingly mean about spending or granting : BEGRUDGING
2 : provided in meanly limited supply
synonym see STINGY
- nig·gard·li·ness noun
- niggardly adverb

This word has nothing offensive about it, but a black student was offended because in his ignorance he believed the word had to do with "nigger". Even though this is OBVIOUSLY not the case, the school sided with the student to "be safe". W-T-F?

If words bother you that much, too damned bad. As I said before, get over yourself!

pocon1 · 03-10-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

I would say that it's not about weight, it's about HEALTH.

Health, as measured by max vo2, heartrate, etc... is very important. However, obesity is strongly corellated with poor health measurements. There are of course exceptions to every rule, but don't hold up one fat person and say "this is the truth". The truth is, if you are fat you are more likely to be unhealthy and therefore a detriment to society. You cost medical insurance more money, you are sick more often, you work fewer hours and are less productive at work, You die younger and place a greater burden on your family, the list goes on.
Society has the ability to place curbs on behaviors that are unacceptable and detrimental to its wishes.

0energy0 · 03-10-2005, 10:36 AM

I really get angry when people make fun of other people who are "fat". You can't even define fat in today's society. If they don't look fit and have a little chubbiness to them, they consider them fat? It really pisses me off when my friends are made fun of because of their weight. My friends play it off or joke around it, but they aren't standing up for themselves.
I, myself. have a very high metabolism. And when I mean high, I mean high. I've been wanting to gain weight forever, but it has never happened...yet.

0energy0 · 03-10-2005, 10:40 AM

oh yeah, if you eat a normally and healthy diet (3 meals a day), your metabolic rate rises. so eat more, but healthy foods!

pig · 03-10-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocon1

Society has the ability to place curbs on behaviors that are unacceptable and detrimental to its wishes.

pocon1, i think this is a potentially very dangerous idea to encourage...who does the deciding? i say live and let live, just don't expect me to follow in your footsteps unless they make sense.

/oh crap, i almost slipped on a godwin.

pocon1 · 03-10-2005, 11:08 AM

I guess I should say an educated society. A society full of ignorant people or religious zealots will tend to trample on anyone who is different. The more I read the paper, the harder it becomes to imagine an educated society exists anywhere. But the fact is, everyone knows that fat is heavily associated with most lifestyle diseases (note lifestyle).
As far as my point of view, I am a personal trainer. So you only find encouragement from me to improve your own quality of life. But the people who I work with want to change or improve. The people I have less empathy for are the ones who don't care to improve or make excuses. I have seen hundreds of people improve the quality of their lives and make progress in their health with exercise and better diet. The population of our facility is pretty old, and these people are still making progress or maintaining. My oldest client, Jerry, is 81. I have worked with him for eight years. Yes, I have seen his abilities lessen, but he still comes in and does what he can. He will tell me what is going on, but he does not ask for pity. He needs help, and I offer what I can. That earns my respect.

pig · 03-10-2005, 11:26 AM

pocon,

I'll agree with your point of view, or what I see to be it's essence, 100%. I don't see any way to deny the fact that you're going to be statistically better off living a healthy lifestyle, and for the vast majority of people this is going to naturally result in thinner bodies with less fat and more muscle. If someone wants to neglect their bodies, I'm not going to force them to stay healthy, but I will never understand that lifestyle choice. your body is a temple and all that. frankly, i also have no problem with people like yourself expressing their views - as I believe people will find they are happier when they are in better shape, for a whole slew of reasons, if person x decides to get in shape because of people like yourself encouraging them to do so, then I say fan-fucking-tastic. I'm a little more skeptical of issues like government-enforced lifestyle change. I would also add that in this educated society / utopia you speak of, that the society would have to fully endorse healthy lifestyles. That would entail giving people the time to exercise in addition to their jobs and family committments - much like I feel that in this society if we are going to live in dual-income homes with both parents working, this society should embrace the concept that both parents shouldn't have to work current full time hours in order to pay the bills / have some entertainment and spending money, but that's another issue.

The facts is the facts, and I see no point in discussing them other than their presentation for this discussion. What I am concerned about is the possible marginalization of people who make "undesirable" lifestyle choices. I think that it's very easy to run into the essence of the "glass houses and stones" adage.

/ps. hope i'm still burning when i'm 81.

flamingdog · 03-10-2005, 04:09 PM

We're going round in circles here. It keeps coming back to this question of how and why one should lose weight. It's funny isn't it, how the prejudice is turned 180 degrees to suggest that your concern for my wellbeing and happiness fuels your comments on how I choose to live my life, and as such, is no longer recognised as a prejudice? You know what? You're still prejudiced.

Who's to say I would be happier being on a regimented diet, and a routine of exercise? Maybe I hate feeling chained to something, and prefer to eat when my body tells me I need to eat, according to my tastes, and what I 'fancy' at the time. Maybe health is about more than just statistics and calorie-defecits. Maybe it's about feeling happy. Personally, I'd rather live happy and die when it's coming to me, than live a life of servitude to an image of health, a diet, an exercise 'routine' and be miserable as a result. To me, the idea of tracking the fat and calories I take in on a daily basis is a horrible idea. Not that I'm bashing Ali's right to do it. I just know if I tried it, it would act against my happiness, not for it.

Quote:

Would you want to get to know people that are lazy and self-indulgent on a more personal level? This is the "fat" stereotype. Without catagorizing people based on their characteristics, we couldn't function in society. Every decision would be agonizingly long and presumably useless by the time the decision was finally made. It's the same reason we discriminate if someone is dressed slobbily, or has lots of piercings/tattoos. It's the image that society has constructed for you, and no matter your opinion on it, it's just something you have to live with.

Believe it or not, not everyone stereotypes on the physical level. I'm not arguing with the fact that stereotypes truly exist, but I think you assume too much if you think the first thing I look at is weight.

I operate on the asshole stereotype. Here's how it works. Everyone I meet, I assume from the get-go that they're an asshole. They have as long as we talk for to convince me otherwise.

pig · 03-11-2005, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

We're going round in circles here. It keeps coming back to this question of how and why one should lose weight. It's funny isn't it, how the prejudice is turned 180 degrees to suggest that your concern for my wellbeing and happiness fuels your comments on how I choose to live my life, and as such, is no longer recognised as a prejudice? You know what? You're still prejudiced.

flamingdog - i have a question for you, but first allow me to preface my question by saying that I don't personally care too much if you choose to lose weight and / or live a healthy lifestyle. I would prefer it, but i would also prefer a lot of things. My question is whether you, or anyone that you are close to, has ever suffered from a chronic disease / chronic pain which can be linked to poor general health? You may not like the idea of being chained to a diet, but I'm guessing you wouldn't like to be chained to an insulin syringe, either. Or an oxygen mask, or a handful of pills. I think that people can pretty much eat what they want, if they exercise portion control, exercise regularly, and give their bodies time to adjust.

Once again, while I would prefer that you and everyone else made themselves as robust, healthy, flexible and so forth as possible, it's really not a priority of mine, and I never try to force anyone to do anything, unless it has a direct affect on my life.

Happy early St. Pat's

flamingdog · 03-11-2005, 10:00 AM

Yes, I suffer from osteo-arthritis. My mobility is directly affected by the amount of weight I'm carrying around on my frame at any given time. My mother suffers from the same thing, and has a host of other complaints over which diet is a factor. Maybe one day I'll be chained to a wheelchair.

I hope this answers your question, though I'm not arguing the point of how to achieve better health, and I keep my own counsel on what I do or do not eat. My point was about prejudice against the overweight, namely that the same prejudice is frequently packaged in the context of helpful or informative advice on how to lose weight, or the notion that weight loss is somehow correlative to looking and feeling better about yourself, when I don't think it necessarily is. Regardless of how I personally feel about my weight, there's still a prejudice in play here.

lindseylatch · 03-11-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

Believe it or not, not everyone stereotypes on the physical level. I'm not arguing with the fact that stereotypes truly exist, but I think you assume too much if you think the first thing I look at is weight.

I operate on the asshole stereotype. Here's how it works. Everyone I meet, I assume from the get-go that they're an asshole. They have as long as we talk for to convince me otherwise.

Yeah, you do stereotype on a physical level...Let's say you're at a convenience store, waiting in line. The guy in front of you is a black teenager, wearing a hoody pulled up, covering his face. He's got a hand in one of his pockets, and he looks really nervous. What's your first thought?
"Is he going to rob this store?"
Now, you may squash that thought quickly, or not. But it was still based on the physical. Most of our stereotypes are, because we're a very visual animal.
And I bet you look at really skinny people negatively...You see a really skinny chick walking around, looking muscular, and you get mad and probably assume she's a bitch. And you see a fellow fat person, and probably are more positive towards them.
Deny it all you want, I won't believe you. I'm just saying that so you don't get mad when I don't imediately agree with whatever justifications you provice.

And now the knee-jerk reaction:
And since you use the asshole stereotype, I'll use the bitch one. I'll assume you're a bitch until you prove otherwise...

billege · 03-11-2005, 10:34 AM

Seriously, that's a lot of assuming you just did lidseylatch. Really. Lots.

It's a really huge presumption of yours to tell anyone else what they think, based on what you do. Also, it's really just silly on it's face to post like you just did. Telling others what they think. How futile and indefensable of an arguement is that? I mean, it's silly. You can't possibley tell me what I think, or anyone else.

You can tell me what you *think* I'd think, based off your own preconceptions. But that's utterly pointless.

I hate to break it to you, but no, not everyone sees a black guy in a hoodie and thinks criminal. Really, it's true. Not everyone ever had the preconception that blacks are theives. Hate to break that to you.

Your post there isn't really worth responding to, becuase it's full of so many indefensable points, and it's pretty much just there to tell us about how you project your issues onto what you imagine others think.

It's also troll like, especially the ending, and you need to watch that. You're telling us you can't handle an adult conversation. Work on it. That point is not up for discussion.

To reiterate a point I also think you need to consider:
Not everyone shares your thoughts. Not everyone sees black skin and thinks "thief." You might, and you might be sure you're just like everyone else. You might also think it's thier failure to be honest with themselves that makes them disagree. I'd say that it's your refusal to consider they're being honest, both with you and themselves, that's at issue.

tecoyah · 03-11-2005, 10:58 AM

If this gets any more personal....it will be closed, and someone will get slapped.....Understood, Good

pig · 03-11-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

Yes, I suffer from osteo-arthritis...maybe one day I'll be chained to a wheelchair...my point was about prejudice against the overweight, namely that the same prejudice is frequently packaged in the context of helpful or informative advice on how to lose weight, or the notion that weight loss is somehow correlative to looking and feeling better about yourself, when I don't think it necessarily is. Regardless of how I personally feel about my weight, there's still a prejudice in play here.

I'm sorry to hear about your condition - that stinketh to high heaven. I'm not arguing that there is prejudice against the overweight displayed here and elsewhere, but particularly in the post you picked out and some others like it. I wouldn't say that those posts mirror my own thoughts on my cellulited brethren and sistren - but I will say that a. I think that some of the posts deemed inflammatory are just people expressing their opinions, and a lot of opinions technically have some prejudice in them in the most general sense. Can one judge without being judgemental? (ie. I don't like smelly people. I just don't. I welcome them to be smelly, but in my opinion it's just nasty. I'd like to throw deodorant sticks at every single one of them. But I don't, because I want to be tolerated too, etc) b. I would rather internally filter out inflammatory posts that aren't directly insulting by skipping them, than have it done for me such that everything becomes some big patty-cake party. Bleecchhh!!! c. while I have no problem with fat people, I don't like the fact that people are fat. That's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billege

You might also think it's thier failure to be honest with themselves that makes them disagree. I'd say that it's your refusal to consider they're being honest, both with you and themselves, that's at issue.

I found this interesting, because I can see no way for an individual such as lindsey to make this determination. It seems that we all have to project our mental processes on others in order to have any understanding of their thought processes, otherwise they remain indeterminant to us. While that is interesting, I don't see how it's useful. Incidentally, I agree with your post - I just thought it was interesting. Also, everyone knows blacks aren't thieves, it's the Puerto Ricans.

edit: Tecoyah - I just saw your post. If you or anyone else happens to be not only very smelly, but very dedicated to the smelly cause, I apologize for any offense and will happy to modify my post.

flamingdog · 03-11-2005, 11:05 AM

I guess it comes down to the timbre of your prejudices. As I outlined before, I tend to view everyone I meet with equal amounts of suspicion, hence my 'asshole stereotype' (no, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, here or otherwise). It's not based on appearance or any other outward indication, it's based on the fact that the majority of people that pass through my life seem to be assholes, in the main. Fat, thin, black, white, short, tall, you're either an asshole or you aren't. I think I've seen that on someone's sig here...

pig · 03-11-2005, 11:09 AM

oh yeah flamingdog - i forgot to post my agreement that i like fun advice that comes Trojan Horse style. If someone wants to give me tips on changing, that's fine. And if they express concern for me, that's fine - it's actually changed my life before. If they try to justify looking down on me by making it sound like they just want to give me some old-fashioned tough love...well, I get a little skeptical. Then again, I'm sort of an asshole that trusts virtually no one to start with, but there you go.

flamingdog · 03-11-2005, 11:17 AM

Ha ha, sounds like we met back around the other side.

Quote:

If they try to justify looking down on me by making it sound like they just want to give me some old-fashioned tough love...well, I get a little skeptical.

To me, a lot of the 'fat people need to lose weight' rhetoric that flies around - here in its more subtle form, and elsewhere more overtly - smacks of this 'tough love' attitude. That really pisses me off, because it's cut from the same cloth as just being called a fat-ass. It's like the ol' horseshoe in the boxing glove. Sting in the tail.

'If you lose weight, you'll be happier, have more confidence, feel better about yourself,' implying that I should be a miserable, self-loathing wallflower just because I carry a couple of extra pounds. That's prejudice.

skier · 03-11-2005, 11:28 AM

edit- this is in regard to the "some people don't have stereotypes" post. i guess i'm just a slow typer.

I think the point was that unless you are blind (and even then I have my doubts), you would stereotype someone based on certain physical characteristics. The stereotype made and the weight placed on that stereotype changes from person to person, but it's still there. It's just an Ingroup vs. Outgroup thing.

If Some guy/girl shares physical characteristics with you- hair colour, weight, skin color, style of dress, etc., you will make that connection and place them in your ingroup. If someone differs greatly from you, you're more likely to put them into an outgroup. You now have 2 catagories based on physical characteristics. It didn't even have to be physical differences that lead you to create these catagories. They've done studies where they randomly gave half the sample golf balls. They separated the sample and gave them a small test- at the end of which was a question asking if those with golf balls did better or if those without golf balls did better on the test. 80% of the respondants, with no other reason than whether or not they were holding a golf ball, chose in favor of their "group". (Control was 50%)

These people made a choice that those alike to themselves were more intelligent than those less alike to themselves. Over a golf ball. It's easy to see that we will pick up stereotypes over the course of our lives based on consistent physical differences- fat people are inactive(but if you are fat, skinny people are undependable, or _______), a person of any other color than your own puts less emphasis on family. These are dumb stereotypes. But they exist. You live in our society, and you're exposed to stereotypes everyday. You are barraged with them through mass media, interactions with your peers, lessons by your teachers. Just because you don't think of a stereotype consciously when you see it doesn't mean you aren't affected by it.

pig · 03-11-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

Ha ha, sounds like we met back around the other side.

well sort of - my position on this is pretty much : 1. I hate the fact that someone's feeling got hurt. 2. I don't really think being severely overweight is the best idea for a lifestyle choice 3. I welcome people to discriminate on the basis of weight when it comes to personal / romantic relationships - I'm just guessing they'll miss out on some interesting people (the contrapositive is also intersting - implication that all skinny people would be hardworking healthy go-getters, etc) 4. I would encourage overweight people to get in shape, based on my personal experiences, but if someone chooses not too, fine by me for reasons previously stated. Enter pack of wild hyenas, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

To me, a lot of the 'fat people need to lose weight' rhetoric that flies around - here in its more subtle form, and elsewhere more overtly - smacks of this 'tough love' attitude. That really pisses me off, because it's cut from the same cloth as just being called a fat-ass. It's like the ol' horseshoe in the boxing glove. Sting in the tail.

yeah, i think it's a quesiton of degree - because i don't think in the purest form it can be completely avoided. with weight issues, i don't think there's much wiggle room on association with diseases like cardio-pulmonary disease, type ii diabetes, etc. that's just the facts. every time someone gives you advice / makes suggestion, i think there's technically some prejudice in there. to me, it's all about levels of prejudice. i expect and appreciate some of it - shows me you're thinking and you care. too much, and you're an asshole on a scale that makes even my little pigglet self pale, and that's a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

'If you lose weight, you'll be happier, have more confidence, feel better about yourself,' implying that I should be a miserable, self-loathing wallflower just because I carry a couple of extra pounds. That's prejudice.

If I re-phrased this as "You might find that if you lose weight you might be happier, have more confidence, feel better about yourself.." would you still have the problem? I know too many +lbs people who are crazy-go-nuts gregarious and confident to think that the two are directly coorelated all the time. One of the best soccer players I've ever known was a big guy - especially for a serious athlete - (and he was the exception, not the rule) but I would watch him eat people for lunch day in and out on the field. People always this look like "How in the fuck did that lard-ass just do that?" and it was the funniest thing ever. However, I've also known a bunch of heavy people, and eventually a lot of them will admit they wish they were a little thinner, so there's usually some truth to the "you might have more confidence" thing.

pig · 03-11-2005, 11:45 AM

skier

I'm avoiding getting into that aspect of this, pretty much - but I will simply say I agree with your points concerning human reliance on stereotypes to make decisions in their lives. It's just what we do. You may not share the same stereotypes as everyone else, and some tend to pop up for pretty much everone - but I don't see anyway to deny that as soon as you see something / someone new, you compare them to everything / everyone you've already known to see where they fit to help you predict their probable behavior and values. We tend to group our experiences involving people by common characteristics, and these become stereotypes. I don't cross the street when I see black kids coming my way, but if the kids - regardless of color - look like they're overly macho little punks and I don't have my Crocodile Dundee knife handy, I'll cross to be on the safe side. They could be absolute sweethearts, and I'm sorry if I hurt their feelings, but they dress a certain way, I react a certain way, and no one is really hurt. If that's wrong, then tough shittola, I guess.

flamingdog · 03-11-2005, 12:00 PM

Pigglet - Tricky to answer whether it would bother me to have the question rephrased. It would depend on who was delivering it. For it to be a prejudiced comment, it by necessity has to come from somebody who knows nothing about me, in which case, it's horrifically inappropriate. If it's coming from my mother, who (for argument's sake) might have witnessed behaviour on my part suggesting a low self-esteem, then there might be some justification for that comment.

Thing is, when it comes to heavier people 'admitting' they want to lose weight, I have to question the reasons for that. If you want to be thinner for any other reason than to satisfy yourself (and not satisfy yourself that society is no longer laughing at you behind your back), then you're probably not in it for the right one.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a sense... you can't admit to having less confidence as the result of obesity without it at least in part becoming true, and the more you hear it, the truer it becomes... IMHO, anyway.

skier - We agree on that, I never said I didn't have stereotypes, I'm aware of them and I admit to them, just like you did. Thing is, you admitted to having a stereotype based on physical appearance, I have a stereotype based on being an asshole. It's just different points of view.

pig · 03-11-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdog

If you want to be thinner for any other reason than to satisfy yourself (and not satisfy yourself that society is no longer laughing at you behind your back), then you're probably not in it for the right one.

Agreed and agreed again - I would say that if someone's viewpoint sparks you thinking about something, but if in the end you're not doing it for yourself you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

re: skier and the physical appearance stereotypes, while I find your position to believe, fd (yes, i'm quite lazy sometimes) i won't argue it. i know i personally make judgements based on stereotypes all the time, i just try not to be judgemental about it. what i mean is that i will avoid people with violent body language on the street, people with mullets / rat-tails, people with a lot of baggy shit hanging off them (especially if it's dirty - and not contractor / construction worker dirty, but I don't wash my clothes dirty) if I can, because I don't want to mess with them. Not necessarily because they're bad people, I just usually don't feel like taking the time to find out. by the same token, if i end up in an elevator with someone whom I might avoid, I don't freak out or treat them with a lack of respect. I just prefer to avoid potentially interesting situations before they happen if I can. maybe others work differently.

lindseylatch · 03-11-2005, 04:04 PM

sorry, I was just really pissed by your comment that you don't use visual stereotypes, when I've seen quite a number of psych studies (I'm a psych major) that prove differently.
And of course that asshole things was annoying as well, and only made you seem a little bitter, and bitchy.

lindseylatch · 03-11-2005, 04:06 PM

Oh, and I still haven't really seen any evidence to support this idea of a weight prejudice on TFP. I've heard of two posts, out of the thousands (millions?) of posts on here...

tecoyah · 03-11-2005, 05:10 PM

I have gone out of my way to "Search" for the reported Weight Prejudice in these boards....and to be honest, after about three hours of the hunt, I have really only found it in this thread.
If indeed the thread starter wishes to eliminate this problem....just tell me and I will delete this entire thread. Thus removing the bulk of the bias instantly.

flamingdog · 03-12-2005, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindseylatch

sorry, I was just really pissed by your comment that you don't use visual stereotypes, when I've seen quite a number of psych studies (I'm a psych major) that prove differently.

I'm sorry, I just have to answer this. To my knowledge, I've not been included in any psych studies. Ever. The ones you have seen do not prove anything about me.

Nor do they remove the fact that your original post about me was pure assumption, built on assumption, built on assumption. I have more opinions on psychology itself, but I think I'll save those for another thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindseylatch

And of course that asshole things was annoying as well, and only made you seem a little bitter, and bitchy.

Hey, it works for me. I apply it across the board, and hey presto, my life is asshole-free!

alicat · 03-12-2005, 09:32 PM

I appologize, I've been in Florida for the past week on the first vacation we've been on in the last 6 years, therefore my lack of responses.

Yes, I realize it sounds like I'm "defending" myself. I'm not. The explaination I gave stands, what I said is what I meant. In hindsight, my post seems simplistic and lends itself to scrutinism. Fine, scrutinize if you must.

This tread has gone way farther than I thought it would. Alot of opinions have come my way, from what I eat, don't eat, excercise, don't excercise, etc. Everyone has an opinion when it comes to someone who's "fat". I am not trying to change the world. I was just hoping to help the members of the TFP who aren't, conscious of the frivolous use of "fat" in posts.

Here is an example of a post that while not directed towards anyone here is what I'm talking about...

Quote:

It's about 7-8 in the evening, on a Friday as I recall. We'd been drinking since 3 or 4. Out of nowhere someone notices a pizza car outside, and the driver is the FAT ass lady, and it's obvious there are a bunch of pizza's in the car.

I thought I had stated in an earlier post that I hadn't seen, nor was refering to, any overt comments from one member to another, just comments like the one above.

I am not emotionally scarred or overly sensitive. I find it curious that so many have labeled me as such or questioned whether I am. As I've said, people are not going to find fat attractive over-night, understandable. Really, there's nothing more I can say that I haven't already. I'll just "buck up little beaver" and let anything I find offensive roll off my back as some have suggested.

Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread!

Ali

analog · 03-12-2005, 10:22 PM

If you even remotely think that saying something along the lines of "the driver is the fat ass lady"- and I can only assume the original post had not capitalized the word FAT- then you are as hypersensitive as they come. It's a physical description meant to give an impression of the size/shape/whatever of the subject. If the poster went on to say something like, "I think she had a twinkie stockpile in the back", "I wonder how she fits through the door", "she was so fat that I thought her car had been lowered, but when she got out it sprang back up to normal height", then you'd at least be heading in the general direction of some sort of weight "issue".

You're making a mountain of fat out of nonfat molehills.

The good people of these boards have been fighting over this topic (while many were decidedly off-topic) a while in your stead, and the overwhelming findings are that there is no such weight prejudice found- even by individuals, let alone pervasive or widespread prejudice.

I'm curious how much longer this thread will last.

flamingdog · 03-13-2005, 10:57 AM

Actually, the capitalisation was not added by Alicat. Curious about that myself, I checked it last night.

alicat · 03-13-2005, 09:39 PM

Mods: If this thread is deemed out of control, then by all means please delete it.

This is the last post I will make in this thread because I don't have enough time to deal with all the morphing away from my original post that has happened here (I'm in the process of moving). I wrote personal info about myself in my first post trying to make a point about alot of peoples preconceived notions of those of us that are "fat". Opening myself up was not the right way to go as I have been ripped on over practically everything I said, as well as what I didn't say.

Tecoyah searched for over three hours and didn't find anything, therefore I posted the quote I did because it was the most readily available reference I could find, not neceassarily the most blatant.

As Flamingdog said, I did not capitolize "fat", that is the way it was written and quoted.

Quote:

It's a physical description meant to give an impression of the size/shape/whatever of the subject.

I understand what you mean but still question whether anyone cares about fat comments verses, say, "the driver is the gimp ass lady", or "the driver is the deaf ass lady", or "the driver is the retarded ass lady". None of those classifications would be tolerated, yet "fat" is. That was my sole point. Why would any extrainious comments like "I think she had a twinkie stockpile in the back" lessen (or compound) the intent of the original comment?

I love the TFP and have contributed what little piddly amount I could to it and will continue to do so. I am however a bit upset that two moderators have said how they haven't seen what I'm talking about. Because they haven't read or noticed it doesn't mean it isin't there. Again for the (I think) third time, I never said there was blatant prejudice, and I am not overtly sensitive. For the majority of people who have posted in this thread, there have been a handfull that agree with me that there are "fatist" posts out there.

Whether they're the only ones who have noticed it or the only ones to read this thread and willing to come forth about their perceptions, I don't know. Frankly, I am normally a non-confrontational person and I did not expect this thread to go the way it has. I thought this topic would have an impact, but not so vehemently from people whom don't have a weight problem and therefore aren't really affected by the "prejudice" I was referring to. At best I was hoping it might open their eyes to what other people deal with. Prejudice was probably not the best choice of words on my part, although I can't think of any other word to convey the same meaning that wouldn't also be jumped on.

I don't know how much clearer I can be-I am not referring to blatant attacks on any members, just the casual comments that might not mean anything to someone who doesn't have a weight problem but non-the-less may be hurtful to those of us that do.

Ali

xepherys · 03-13-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

I understand what you mean but still question whether anyone cares about fat comments verses, say, "the driver is the gimp ass lady", or "the driver is the deaf ass lady", or "the driver is the retarded ass lady". None of those classifications would be tolerated, yet "fat" is. That was my sole point. Why would any extrainious comments like "I think she had a twinkie stockpile in the back" lessen (or compound) the intent of the original comment?

Why would these not be tolerated?

"I was driving down the road and this retarded ass lady pulled out in front of me like a bat out of hell"... oh, because she probably WASN'T actually retarded? *boggle*

I think tolerance is based a lot on individuals... I don't get offended much by people. I think this all comes full circle to Ali's first post and my first comment about it... words are only as offensive as you let them be!

analog · 03-13-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

Tecoyah searched for over three hours and didn't find anything, therefore I posted the quote I did because it was the most readily available reference I could find, not neceassarily the most blatant.

Yeah, I searched for a while as well. We ain't found shit. (yay for spaceballs reference)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

As Flamingdog said, I did not capitolize "fat", that is the way it was written and quoted.

Well, then I sit corrected- since you didn't bother to link to your source, I had no idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

I understand what you mean but still question whether anyone cares about fat comments verses, say, "the driver is the gimp ass lady", or "the driver is the deaf ass lady", or "the driver is the retarded ass lady". None of those classifications would be tolerated, yet "fat" is. That was my sole point. Why would any extrainious comments like "I think she had a twinkie stockpile in the back" lessen (or compound) the intent of the original comment?

As I said, it was a physical description. The poster didn't hang on it, go on about it, keep digging- there was a comment and immediate movement onward. Going on about the fatness WOULD constitute a different intention entirely. Also, the other descriptions you listed: gimp, deaf, retarded, would likely have ALSO been regarded as simple observations, unless (as I said) there were extra comments made to indicate different (bad) intent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alicat

Mods: If this thread is deemed out of control, then by all means please delete it.

Cool- done and done.

03-06-2005, 07:29 PM	#83 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	On a side note, my wife is relatively thin. My son's mom was also relatively thin. My ex-girlfriend was a little bit bigger (size 14, not huge). Her "weight" didn't make a difference. the biggest thing that was a problem for our relationship was her poor self image. Maybe THAT'S something that turns guys off about overweight women. I don't know if this holds true in your case as I don't know you at all... but sometimes there's more to a stereotype than meets the eye. Also, anyone with any psychology education knows that it's human nature to group, judge and react. It's how we operate. Even the Ghandi among us judge... he just happened to judge postively on everyone. You yourself are judging someone to be shallow because they don't find overweight females attractive. Frankly, I think chubby girls can be fantastically cute. I also think that overweight guys are generally exceptionally unattractive. Maybe that's because I was in that boat once and hated it. My judgement is clouded by my own previous shortcomings. If I, instead, thought girls over a size 2 were disgusting, due to my own internal struggles with previous weight gain, would I still be shallow? Last edited by xepherys; 03-06-2005 at 09:48 PM..

03-09-2005, 07:51 PM	#85 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Ali et al, I read this post the whole way through, and then took a little time to think about it. I've been heavier, I've been lighter, I've got family with weight problems, etc. I'm not going to address a lot of the health-related issues, or really even the discussion of skier and company on the role/necessity of stereotypes in social interactions - although I think it's an interesting topic. Maybe later. What I will say is this: I really hate the fact that you have taken offense at comments posted here on the forum. While I agree that ultimately one's emotional state and sensitivity to one's environment is, technically, within that individual's control (I'm not arguing this here - maybe elsewhere - it's just my personal belief); I always hate to see people's feelings get hurt, and I think that's the root situation here. It seems that the comments you have taken offense to are rarely directly aimed at specific people, but are the results of ingrained perceptions, etc. Without arguing the merits of these perceptions, I would only like to say that I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a world where no one is offended. I think it would stifle too much freedom of thought and speech, and would cut down way too much on the amount of levity we have in expressing ourselves - whether in anger, indignation, or humor. No matter what a person says, it's probably going to offend someone. I don't think it's possible to have a forum with any true amount of diversity and expect that you (general you) will not be offended by some of the comments, whether it be concerning politics, religion, or the type of situation at hand involving questions of social perception. As far as my own perception of overweight people, the only perception I think I truly form when I meet them is the following : if a pack of wild, ravenous hyenas comes racing down the hall, I might just be ok, via the "I don't have to be the fastest guy on the planet, just faster than that guy" theory. No offense to anyone, but them's the facts. Other than that, I really don't think I give a flip. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-09-2005, 08:20 PM	#86 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	I would say that it's not about weight, it's about HEALTH. There was a study done, and I totally wish I remember who did it, but it was quoted in my health class. They found that "fat," fit people lived longer than "skinny," unfit people. Fitness was measure by resting heart rate, oxygen consumption, etc. I'm slightly overweight, but my bigger problem is my poor health. I have asthma, so my cardio vascular health sucks, and I could definitely use some muscular work. I'm a lot more concerned about that than the ten pounds I could loss. And I'd like to admit that I definitely have a prejudice about obese people, particularly morbidly obese people. I fight it when i notice it, but I can hear it whispering to me even now. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

03-09-2005, 11:59 PM	#87 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	Wait just a second here RCAlyra2004. You're telling me if I were to say "Those are nice XXXX" in reference to a picture of a thin woman, it's hurtfult to someone who does not have those qualities I'm referring to? Well, screw that sideways. (The rest of my post NOT even remotely directed to you, RCAlyra2004) If my expression of what I find attrative offends someone, who is not my idea of attractive, they need to take their fucked up emotional baggage and go somewhere with it. I'm not an in shape guy. I have some extra pounds. I'm comfortable with that. When my wife opines that Vin Deisel is hot, I don't go off and cry in the corner BECUASE I DON'T HAVE A FUCKED UP SELF-IMAGE. My opinion on this whole mess of a thread: I don't see anyone calling "fatass" on the board, so I think the original poster is expressing more internal emotional issues than fact. Quote, or link me to, ONE post on the board where a member posted negatively about a pic of another member and didn't get some form of repremand to show me wrong. SHOW ME one post in Exhibition where "YOU FAT SLOB" was posted and left to stay. I have never seen that kind of behavior tolerated here. Heathly eating habits are just that. You have them, and aren't obese, or you DON'T have them and are. I don't give a shit what you eat. I have mediocre eating habits and a non-active lifestyle. I have at least 20lbs I could lose, and my blood pressure is high. I need to work out more, and eat better. But you know what? I'm not taking my insecurities out on women who think Brad Pitt is hot. I don't give one second's thought to anyone who is so emotionally weak that my comment, on what I consider is attractive, cripples their emotional state. (or maybe I do, since I posted; but, I have personal reasons to respond, so maybe not. I'll have to think about why I did.) You think you see "lookism" or some shit on the TFP? Fine, you think so. Did you also notice you live in the USA? One of the most fucked up societies when it comes to the ideals of beauty, compounded with a screwed up food culture? WE ALL have issues about food and weight, you ain't the first, and you won't be the last. If I meet a fat girl, I either am, or am not, attracted to her. Some skinny girls, I see nothing attractive. Some fat girls, I see nothing attractive. SOME fat girls I see, and am attracted. SOME skinny girls I see, and am attracted. Either way, I don't much care if you can't handle what I like, and what I don't. Nor do I grant anyone the right to control what I can express about such things. I'd never say to someone "Boy, you're just a big fat fuck, aren't you?" because it's not my place to judge. People are how they are, and they have a right to be that way. It's not mine to judge, control, or decide someone's life for them. You want to be HOWEVER you are? That's fine with me, unless you've decided to be a murderer and you're after me with an axe. But do me a favor, be COMFORTABLE with how you are and spare me the whole "I am comfortable, but whine whine whine" bit. __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." Last edited by billege; 03-10-2005 at 12:21 AM..

03-10-2005, 10:36 AM	#90 (permalink)
0energy0 Insane Location: Title Town, USA	I really get angry when people make fun of other people who are "fat". You can't even define fat in today's society. If they don't look fit and have a little chubbiness to them, they consider them fat? It really pisses me off when my friends are made fun of because of their weight. My friends play it off or joke around it, but they aren't standing up for themselves. I, myself. have a very high metabolism. And when I mean high, I mean high. I've been wanting to gain weight forever, but it has never happened...yet. __________________ Is the juice worth the squeeze?

03-06-2005, 07:21 PM	#82 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Ali- I'm not really sure what your beef is? First of all, not everyone who is overweight has either physical OR emotional problems? I used to be overweight, and was so simply because I loved food and was too lazy to do much. I joined the army and got in shape. shrug Next, having previously been overweight, having been a nerd or geek growing up, and generally just not following the status quo, I have to give the typical advice. Words, whether written or spoken, can't hurt you unless you let them. If someone says you're fat, and you assume they are shallow, who cares? If someone says you're fat, and they're just a dick... who cares? Why would you care what these people think? If someone called me a stupid asshole fucktard, it doesn't even phase me. What weight do words like that actually hold? Lastly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion... "acceptable" or not. Political correctness is SO much a socialist endeavor. If I don't like black jewish gays, and I want to have a black jewish gay hate club, the United States of America is the one place, if any, in the world I should be allowed to have such a thing (I don't really hate them... the 2 that there may be that actually exist). Why is there such a serious concern with what other people say or think? If someone physically assaulted you because you were overweight, that would be over the line. If someone calls you a name... or even still, calls someone ELSE a name, getting offended is just a personal weakness. Sorry to go on a rant, but I just find posts like too much of a soapbox.

03-10-2005, 09:05 AM	#88 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	billeage- More or less my feelings exactly. Sadly, living in the USA is also where this political correctness crap has really settled in mainstream. Fat people, ugly people, thing people, beautiful people, everyone thinks they have some right to be perfect in EVERYONE's eyes, or at least that anyone who doesn't feel that way should never even look in their general direction. It's called freedom of thought and freedom of speech people. Seriously, these rules have worked for the past 200+ years in this country, why the hell are we reneging on them now? There was a story (if I can find it, I'll link it) a while back where a teacher got suspended and I believe fired for using the word "niggardly" in class. Main Entry: nig·gard·ly Pronunciation: -lE Function: adjective 1 : grudgingly mean about spending or granting : BEGRUDGING 2 : provided in meanly limited supply synonym see STINGY - nig·gard·li·ness noun - niggardly adverb This word has nothing offensive about it, but a black student was offended because in his ignorance he believed the word had to do with "nigger". Even though this is OBVIOUSLY not the case, the school sided with the student to "be safe". W-T-F? If words bother you that much, too damned bad. As I said before, get over yourself!

03-10-2005, 10:40 AM	#91 (permalink)
0energy0 Insane Location: Title Town, USA	oh yeah, if you eat a normally and healthy diet (3 meals a day), your metabolic rate rises. so eat more, but healthy foods! __________________ Is the juice worth the squeeze?

03-10-2005, 11:08 AM	#93 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	I guess I should say an educated society. A society full of ignorant people or religious zealots will tend to trample on anyone who is different. The more I read the paper, the harder it becomes to imagine an educated society exists anywhere. But the fact is, everyone knows that fat is heavily associated with most lifestyle diseases (note lifestyle). As far as my point of view, I am a personal trainer. So you only find encouragement from me to improve your own quality of life. But the people who I work with want to change or improve. The people I have less empathy for are the ones who don't care to improve or make excuses. I have seen hundreds of people improve the quality of their lives and make progress in their health with exercise and better diet. The population of our facility is pretty old, and these people are still making progress or maintaining. My oldest client, Jerry, is 81. I have worked with him for eight years. Yes, I have seen his abilities lessen, but he still comes in and does what he can. He will tell me what is going on, but he does not ask for pity. He needs help, and I offer what I can. That earns my respect.

03-10-2005, 11:26 AM	#94 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	pocon, I'll agree with your point of view, or what I see to be it's essence, 100%. I don't see any way to deny the fact that you're going to be statistically better off living a healthy lifestyle, and for the vast majority of people this is going to naturally result in thinner bodies with less fat and more muscle. If someone wants to neglect their bodies, I'm not going to force them to stay healthy, but I will never understand that lifestyle choice. your body is a temple and all that. frankly, i also have no problem with people like yourself expressing their views - as I believe people will find they are happier when they are in better shape, for a whole slew of reasons, if person x decides to get in shape because of people like yourself encouraging them to do so, then I say fan-fucking-tastic. I'm a little more skeptical of issues like government-enforced lifestyle change. I would also add that in this educated society / utopia you speak of, that the society would have to fully endorse healthy lifestyles. That would entail giving people the time to exercise in addition to their jobs and family committments - much like I feel that in this society if we are going to live in dual-income homes with both parents working, this society should embrace the concept that both parents shouldn't have to work current full time hours in order to pay the bills / have some entertainment and spending money, but that's another issue. The facts is the facts, and I see no point in discussing them other than their presentation for this discussion. What I am concerned about is the possible marginalization of people who make "undesirable" lifestyle choices. I think that it's very easy to run into the essence of the "glass houses and stones" adage. /ps. hope i'm still burning when i'm 81. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-11-2005, 10:00 AM	#97 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	Yes, I suffer from osteo-arthritis. My mobility is directly affected by the amount of weight I'm carrying around on my frame at any given time. My mother suffers from the same thing, and has a host of other complaints over which diet is a factor. Maybe one day I'll be chained to a wheelchair. I hope this answers your question, though I'm not arguing the point of how to achieve better health, and I keep my own counsel on what I do or do not eat. My point was about prejudice against the overweight, namely that the same prejudice is frequently packaged in the context of helpful or informative advice on how to lose weight, or the notion that weight loss is somehow correlative to looking and feeling better about yourself, when I don't think it necessarily is. Regardless of how I personally feel about my weight, there's still a prejudice in play here.

03-11-2005, 10:34 AM	#99 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	Seriously, that's a lot of assuming you just did lidseylatch. Really. Lots. It's a really huge presumption of yours to tell anyone else what they think, based on what you do. Also, it's really just silly on it's face to post like you just did. Telling others what they think. How futile and indefensable of an arguement is that? I mean, it's silly. You can't possibley tell me what I think, or anyone else. You can tell me what you think I'd think, based off your own preconceptions. But that's utterly pointless. I hate to break it to you, but no, not everyone sees a black guy in a hoodie and thinks criminal. Really, it's true. Not everyone ever had the preconception that blacks are theives. Hate to break that to you. Your post there isn't really worth responding to, becuase it's full of so many indefensable points, and it's pretty much just there to tell us about how you project your issues onto what you imagine others think. It's also troll like, especially the ending, and you need to watch that. You're telling us you can't handle an adult conversation. Work on it. That point is not up for discussion. To reiterate a point I also think you need to consider: Not everyone shares your thoughts. Not everyone sees black skin and thinks "thief." You might, and you might be sure you're just like everyone else. You might also think it's thier failure to be honest with themselves that makes them disagree. I'd say that it's your refusal to consider they're being honest, both with you and themselves, that's at issue. __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

03-11-2005, 10:58 AM	#100 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	If this gets any more personal....it will be closed, and someone will get slapped.....Understood, Good __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-11-2005, 11:05 AM	#102 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	I guess it comes down to the timbre of your prejudices. As I outlined before, I tend to view everyone I meet with equal amounts of suspicion, hence my 'asshole stereotype' (no, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, here or otherwise). It's not based on appearance or any other outward indication, it's based on the fact that the majority of people that pass through my life seem to be assholes, in the main. Fat, thin, black, white, short, tall, you're either an asshole or you aren't. I think I've seen that on someone's sig here... Last edited by flamingdog; 03-11-2005 at 11:13 AM.. Reason: Wow, this thread moves fast.

03-11-2005, 11:09 AM	#103 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	oh yeah flamingdog - i forgot to post my agreement that i like fun advice that comes Trojan Horse style. If someone wants to give me tips on changing, that's fine. And if they express concern for me, that's fine - it's actually changed my life before. If they try to justify looking down on me by making it sound like they just want to give me some old-fashioned tough love...well, I get a little skeptical. Then again, I'm sort of an asshole that trusts virtually no one to start with, but there you go. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-11-2005, 11:28 AM	#105 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	edit- this is in regard to the "some people don't have stereotypes" post. i guess i'm just a slow typer. I think the point was that unless you are blind (and even then I have my doubts), you would stereotype someone based on certain physical characteristics. The stereotype made and the weight placed on that stereotype changes from person to person, but it's still there. It's just an Ingroup vs. Outgroup thing. If Some guy/girl shares physical characteristics with you- hair colour, weight, skin color, style of dress, etc., you will make that connection and place them in your ingroup. If someone differs greatly from you, you're more likely to put them into an outgroup. You now have 2 catagories based on physical characteristics. It didn't even have to be physical differences that lead you to create these catagories. They've done studies where they randomly gave half the sample golf balls. They separated the sample and gave them a small test- at the end of which was a question asking if those with golf balls did better or if those without golf balls did better on the test. 80% of the respondants, with no other reason than whether or not they were holding a golf ball, chose in favor of their "group". (Control was 50%) These people made a choice that those alike to themselves were more intelligent than those less alike to themselves. Over a golf ball. It's easy to see that we will pick up stereotypes over the course of our lives based on consistent physical differences- fat people are inactive(but if you are fat, skinny people are undependable, or _______), a person of any other color than your own puts less emphasis on family. These are dumb stereotypes. But they exist. You live in our society, and you're exposed to stereotypes everyday. You are barraged with them through mass media, interactions with your peers, lessons by your teachers. Just because you don't think of a stereotype consciously when you see it doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim Last edited by skier; 03-11-2005 at 11:34 AM..

03-11-2005, 11:45 AM	#107 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	skier I'm avoiding getting into that aspect of this, pretty much - but I will simply say I agree with your points concerning human reliance on stereotypes to make decisions in their lives. It's just what we do. You may not share the same stereotypes as everyone else, and some tend to pop up for pretty much everone - but I don't see anyway to deny that as soon as you see something / someone new, you compare them to everything / everyone you've already known to see where they fit to help you predict their probable behavior and values. We tend to group our experiences involving people by common characteristics, and these become stereotypes. I don't cross the street when I see black kids coming my way, but if the kids - regardless of color - look like they're overly macho little punks and I don't have my Crocodile Dundee knife handy, I'll cross to be on the safe side. They could be absolute sweethearts, and I'm sorry if I hurt their feelings, but they dress a certain way, I react a certain way, and no one is really hurt. If that's wrong, then tough shittola, I guess. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-11-2005, 12:00 PM	#108 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	Pigglet - Tricky to answer whether it would bother me to have the question rephrased. It would depend on who was delivering it. For it to be a prejudiced comment, it by necessity has to come from somebody who knows nothing about me, in which case, it's horrifically inappropriate. If it's coming from my mother, who (for argument's sake) might have witnessed behaviour on my part suggesting a low self-esteem, then there might be some justification for that comment. Thing is, when it comes to heavier people 'admitting' they want to lose weight, I have to question the reasons for that. If you want to be thinner for any other reason than to satisfy yourself (and not satisfy yourself that society is no longer laughing at you behind your back), then you're probably not in it for the right one. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a sense... you can't admit to having less confidence as the result of obesity without it at least in part becoming true, and the more you hear it, the truer it becomes... IMHO, anyway. skier - We agree on that, I never said I didn't have stereotypes, I'm aware of them and I admit to them, just like you did. Thing is, you admitted to having a stereotype based on physical appearance, I have a stereotype based on being an asshole. It's just different points of view.

03-11-2005, 04:04 PM	#110 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	sorry, I was just really pissed by your comment that you don't use visual stereotypes, when I've seen quite a number of psych studies (I'm a psych major) that prove differently. And of course that asshole things was annoying as well, and only made you seem a little bitter, and bitchy. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

03-11-2005, 04:06 PM	#111 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	Oh, and I still haven't really seen any evidence to support this idea of a weight prejudice on TFP. I've heard of two posts, out of the thousands (millions?) of posts on here... __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

03-11-2005, 05:10 PM	#112 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I have gone out of my way to "Search" for the reported Weight Prejudice in these boards....and to be honest, after about three hours of the hunt, I have really only found it in this thread. If indeed the thread starter wishes to eliminate this problem....just tell me and I will delete this entire thread. Thus removing the bulk of the bias instantly. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-12-2005, 10:22 PM	#115 (permalink)
analog Banned	If you even remotely think that saying something along the lines of "the driver is the fat ass lady"- and I can only assume the original post had not capitalized the word FAT- then you are as hypersensitive as they come. It's a physical description meant to give an impression of the size/shape/whatever of the subject. If the poster went on to say something like, "I think she had a twinkie stockpile in the back", "I wonder how she fits through the door", "she was so fat that I thought her car had been lowered, but when she got out it sprang back up to normal height", then you'd at least be heading in the general direction of some sort of weight "issue". You're making a mountain of fat out of nonfat molehills. The good people of these boards have been fighting over this topic (while many were decidedly off-topic) a while in your stead, and the overwhelming findings are that there is no such weight prejudice found- even by individuals, let alone pervasive or widespread prejudice. I'm curious how much longer this thread will last.

03-13-2005, 10:57 AM	#116 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	Actually, the capitalisation was not added by Alicat. Curious about that myself, I checked it last night.