Shake Hands With The Devil - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

munchen · 02-02-2005, 10:09 PM

I just saw a documentary on the CBC called Shake Hands With the Devil. The premise is a camera following Romeo Dallaire as he revisits Rwanda ten years after the genocide. For those of you who don't know Dallaire was the general in charge of the UN peacekeeping mission in rwanda. He tried to inform the world and the UN of what was going on and they ignored him and allowed the massacre. Anyways the documentary was really good and disgustingly powerful. I couldn't find the video but you can listen to it here just click "listen to show" at the bottom of the page.

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2...421_b_main.asp

After watching this I got very depressed, I think thats why I have to start this thread. I'm not sure what I'm most depressed about, thinking about the number of people, the number of lives, the families, the survivers and the total lack of world support is depressing. The fact that they are still neglected is depressing. I think what depresses me most is the fact that we are no better now. I can watch this documentary and the picture begins to form in my head of what is happening in the Sudan. The fact that we are allowing this to go on is unbeleivable to me, and just ten years after Rwanda. Have we learned nothing? What does it take to get through to people? What can I do about it? Bush said he wanted an end to tyranny, what is worse out there than the Sudan?

Anyways I'm just a bit down and frankly I'm angry at the world right now. If any of you have any thoughts about rwanda or the Sudan, what we can do about it, or a reason to feel better about it I would love to hear you.

In the Sudan there are mubers suggesting 400 000 dead and 1.5 million displaced. If you are unfamiliar with this incident here is a link of some basic facts. The first link holds alot of the mortality numbers, the second has some general information on the goverment and state of the Sudan.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/sudanDA...E18jan2005.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...les/820864.stm

Also if anyone has better information about this please post it. I would love to get my hands on the best info possible. I think we have to learn about this

meembo · 02-03-2005, 06:25 AM

I saw the same documentary a little while ago, and last night I watched the last part of an Autschwitz documentary on PBS. Part of the documentary focused on the Allies not bombing the camp or the rail lines leading to the camp, though a munitions factory four miles away was bombed with hundreds of planes. 1,300,000 people were killed there, almost half in the spring and summer of 1944.

I agree that it is the complacency of others that is so unsettling. Comparing the USA's NATO reaction to Bosnia to the USA's reaction in Rwanda is impossible to rationalize. Racism is at the core of it, in the minds of both the murderers and the world that watches.

munchen · 02-04-2005, 10:48 PM

Why is it that if a guy shoots himself with a nail gun it gets people talking, people are intrested, it get three pages of response, but genocide nobody cares about. Do people not understand whats gong on? why is this going under the radar again in society and in here? How can everybody watch the news over dinner, see horrible scenes of souless violence and death, look up and say "thats a shame" then continue eating? Hundreds of thousands of people are praying that just someone will acknowlege the problem enough to do something to help them from being slaughtered. How can we hear them, see this happening and just ignore it? Here is something very badly quoted from hotel rwanda about why the world does nothing, Is it actually true? "They don't care about you, you are nothing to them, you're not people, you are dirt, you're not even niggers, you're africans "

Phage · 02-04-2005, 11:50 PM

What do you think would happen if Bush announced today that the USA was going to stop the madness in Sudan? There would be a massive public outcry about how he was after oil or some other nonsense. Even then, how could he justify making such a decision? His role is to protect the interests of the United States, not to go around making moral judgements on methods of government.

The problem is that people like Michael Moore will always find some ulterior motive that will explain someone who is just trying to do the right thing, and use the fears of people who *would* take advantage of such a situation for their own advancement. This is one of the reasons why nothing is done.

Another reason why nothing is done is because there are some people who do not believe in anything enough to use or advocate violence to stop it. The cold truth is that no matter what these people believe they will never be able to stop those who are willing to fight.

A third major reason why nothing is done is because there is no clear solution to the problem. It seems that everyone in Africa wants to kill everyone else, and in that kind of environment there is very little that can be done.

guthmund · 02-05-2005, 12:03 AM

It's a two fold problem.

The American media shys away from it. I mean, even when politicos were mentioning it during the beginnings of the war in Iraq, the news media largely ignored it. Sadly, if the news media, however pathetic its current incarnation, doesn't cover it, then the vast majority doesn't hear and doesn't care about it.

Second, the numbers are just so staggering. It's a question of relativity. You estimated 400,000 gone in the Sudan. That's a hard number to get a hold of. 3 people dead, you know 3 people, what if they died? 10 people dead, likewise. But 400,000? It's hard for folks who have seen the pictures to imagine 400,000 dead and nearly impossible to understand if you haven't.

Sadly, there isn't much 'we' can do other than get the information out. This isn't a problem to be solved by holding rallies, paying membership dues and mailing $30 a month to save a starving child. It's a problem, so large in scope, that our government must be the acting authority. It's not in our government's best interest to become involved with an internal civil war in Africa. At least, that's the official line. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter that they're 'africans,' what matters is they're poor and their countries have nothing to offer. Where's the incentive to jump headfirst into another Rwanda? What could those 400,000 possibly have had to barter with? They had nothing, which means any movement from our government has to be altruistic in nature. I bet you can count on both your hands how many times that's happened.

My heart goes out to them, it really does and those that care, do what they can. Sometimes you just can't make a person see past their own nose.

By the way. If you want a wide and varying response (or any more at all), I'd ask a moderator to move this to the politics forum. In the politics forum, everyone seems to have a differing opinion on everything and there are never any 'dry spells.'

Halx · 02-05-2005, 01:39 AM

Isn't shaking hands with the devil a euphemism for masturbation?

02-02-2005, 10:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	Shake Hands With The Devil I just saw a documentary on the CBC called Shake Hands With the Devil. The premise is a camera following Romeo Dallaire as he revisits Rwanda ten years after the genocide. For those of you who don't know Dallaire was the general in charge of the UN peacekeeping mission in rwanda. He tried to inform the world and the UN of what was going on and they ignored him and allowed the massacre. Anyways the documentary was really good and disgustingly powerful. I couldn't find the video but you can listen to it here just click "listen to show" at the bottom of the page. http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2...421_b_main.asp After watching this I got very depressed, I think thats why I have to start this thread. I'm not sure what I'm most depressed about, thinking about the number of people, the number of lives, the families, the survivers and the total lack of world support is depressing. The fact that they are still neglected is depressing. I think what depresses me most is the fact that we are no better now. I can watch this documentary and the picture begins to form in my head of what is happening in the Sudan. The fact that we are allowing this to go on is unbeleivable to me, and just ten years after Rwanda. Have we learned nothing? What does it take to get through to people? What can I do about it? Bush said he wanted an end to tyranny, what is worse out there than the Sudan? Anyways I'm just a bit down and frankly I'm angry at the world right now. If any of you have any thoughts about rwanda or the Sudan, what we can do about it, or a reason to feel better about it I would love to hear you. In the Sudan there are mubers suggesting 400 000 dead and 1.5 million displaced. If you are unfamiliar with this incident here is a link of some basic facts. The first link holds alot of the mortality numbers, the second has some general information on the goverment and state of the Sudan. http://www.genocidewatch.org/sudanDA...E18jan2005.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...les/820864.stm Also if anyone has better information about this please post it. I would love to get my hands on the best info possible. I think we have to learn about this __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening Last edited by munchen; 02-02-2005 at 10:14 PM..

02-03-2005, 06:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I saw the same documentary a little while ago, and last night I watched the last part of an Autschwitz documentary on PBS. Part of the documentary focused on the Allies not bombing the camp or the rail lines leading to the camp, though a munitions factory four miles away was bombed with hundreds of planes. 1,300,000 people were killed there, almost half in the spring and summer of 1944. I agree that it is the complacency of others that is so unsettling. Comparing the USA's NATO reaction to Bosnia to the USA's reaction in Rwanda is impossible to rationalize. Racism is at the core of it, in the minds of both the murderers and the world that watches. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

02-04-2005, 10:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	Why is it that if a guy shoots himself with a nail gun it gets people talking, people are intrested, it get three pages of response, but genocide nobody cares about. Do people not understand whats gong on? why is this going under the radar again in society and in here? How can everybody watch the news over dinner, see horrible scenes of souless violence and death, look up and say "thats a shame" then continue eating? Hundreds of thousands of people are praying that just someone will acknowlege the problem enough to do something to help them from being slaughtered. How can we hear them, see this happening and just ignore it? Here is something very badly quoted from hotel rwanda about why the world does nothing, Is it actually true? "They don't care about you, you are nothing to them, you're not people, you are dirt, you're not even niggers, you're africans " __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening Last edited by munchen; 02-04-2005 at 10:51 PM..

02-05-2005, 12:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	It's a two fold problem. The American media shys away from it. I mean, even when politicos were mentioning it during the beginnings of the war in Iraq, the news media largely ignored it. Sadly, if the news media, however pathetic its current incarnation, doesn't cover it, then the vast majority doesn't hear and doesn't care about it. Second, the numbers are just so staggering. It's a question of relativity. You estimated 400,000 gone in the Sudan. That's a hard number to get a hold of. 3 people dead, you know 3 people, what if they died? 10 people dead, likewise. But 400,000? It's hard for folks who have seen the pictures to imagine 400,000 dead and nearly impossible to understand if you haven't. Sadly, there isn't much 'we' can do other than get the information out. This isn't a problem to be solved by holding rallies, paying membership dues and mailing $30 a month to save a starving child. It's a problem, so large in scope, that our government must be the acting authority. It's not in our government's best interest to become involved with an internal civil war in Africa. At least, that's the official line. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter that they're 'africans,' what matters is they're poor and their countries have nothing to offer. Where's the incentive to jump headfirst into another Rwanda? What could those 400,000 possibly have had to barter with? They had nothing, which means any movement from our government has to be altruistic in nature. I bet you can count on both your hands how many times that's happened. My heart goes out to them, it really does and those that care, do what they can. Sometimes you just can't make a person see past their own nose. By the way. If you want a wide and varying response (or any more at all), I'd ask a moderator to move this to the politics forum. In the politics forum, everyone seems to have a differing opinion on everything and there are never any 'dry spells.' __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

02-05-2005, 01:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Isn't shaking hands with the devil a euphemism for masturbation? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-04-2005, 11:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
Phage Insane	What do you think would happen if Bush announced today that the USA was going to stop the madness in Sudan? There would be a massive public outcry about how he was after oil or some other nonsense. Even then, how could he justify making such a decision? His role is to protect the interests of the United States, not to go around making moral judgements on methods of government. The problem is that people like Michael Moore will always find some ulterior motive that will explain someone who is just trying to do the right thing, and use the fears of people who would take advantage of such a situation for their own advancement. This is one of the reasons why nothing is done. Another reason why nothing is done is because there are some people who do not believe in anything enough to use or advocate violence to stop it. The cold truth is that no matter what these people believe they will never be able to stop those who are willing to fight. A third major reason why nothing is done is because there is no clear solution to the problem. It seems that everyone in Africa wants to kill everyone else, and in that kind of environment there is very little that can be done.