degrawj

Wow, I'd heard that the most effective soldier is a well trained one, but adding in the "who is defending his homeland," really adds a point. Especially given what's going on in Iraq, and what hapenned with Vietnam. Very powerful point Schwan.

Rdr4evr

filtherton beat me to it...nothing to add in that department

but i do find it amusing that someone who refuses to kill innocent people is labeled as a coward, yet the ones that murder children are heroes.

hulk

I don't get it. People here are going on about how he chose to be in the army, right? Well, why the hell can't he chose to leave? If I'm not mistaken, soldiers designated to go to Iraq can't quit until thier TOD is up, yes? That sounds like close enough to a draft to me.

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
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IC3

Good Point.

And you can't deny that some soldiers are doing this kind of stuff, Some of them find it pretty amusing posing with an dead iraqi prisoner/civilian like he just bagged his first deer.

__________________
"To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi

Lockjaw

Don't give me that "You didn't serve you can't comment" stuff as service sure hasn't kept a lot of people on here for questioning the reasoning and morality of a soldier at his post seeing a car driving at him and not heeding the roadblocks and suggesting that soldier is heartless or suggesting that by following their orders they are base unthinking drones.

It IS cowardice pure and simple. As I said if he didn't like what he was doing there ARE ways out without fleeing into Canada. Most of them would deal with him being unceremoniously tossed out of the military and maybe some jail time but that's better than running to Canada like a coward. As I said if he wants to leave fine...but he better not dare set foot back in this country. In my book a person that signs up for military duty and then runs from it is less deserving of the freedoms of this country than even those who did not chose to serve.

Lockjaw

Because that is not how it works simply enough and never has worked that way in the modern military. They are being paid to do a job. They signed up to get some benefits and the second they disagree with something they should be allowed to leave? It doesn't take much to realize that something as demanding as a military organization wouldn't WORK if it was just "hey...you can leave now if you want".

BTW the cowardess comes in not because he doesn't want to kill civilians but in the fact he made a commitment to the military and more importantly his buddies in the field. If he wanted to leave fine...take the punishment for doing so. Instead what does he do? He leaves his friends in his unit that could use a trained guy watching their back in a firefight. He leaves his country that he swore an oath to protect. He leaves his family. And he leaves his daughter to live in a place where he might never get to see her ever again. THAT is a coward.

Carno

Your ignorance is comical. He signed a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT. He cannot just up and leave whenever he wants to. And that is nothing like a draft. He VOLUNTEERED to fight in the US Army. He was not forced, he signed the contract and he should have known what that contract said.

Soldiers are there to kill. They are there to fight wars and to kill and to die. They are not there to debate ethics or morals. They get an order, and they follow it. It's as simple as that. I find it extremely strange why some of you think that a soldier has rights. Soldiers basically sign their life away when they volunteer for the military. They no longer have a say in what they do, they only do what they are told. And if you have a problem with that, fine, but just know that's the way it is right now, and those soldiers who run to other countries are cowards. You cannot deny that. There are other way to object to combat, yet he took the easy, illegal way out. He should be punished as severely as possible.

Whether you may think it is right or wrong, that is how it is. That is how it has to be, in order to have an effective fighting force. If you think otherwise, you don't know much about the military.

Carno

He didn't know they were innocent people. His commanding officer didn't know they were innocent. All they saw was a car speeding towards them. They didn't know there were children inside the car, they only saw a potential threat. I find it extremely horrible that those innocent people died, but I cannot lay any blame on the soldiers. Those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and whether they meant to or not, they appeared to be threat to those soldiers.

I have no respect for you. You are commending someone who broke the law, when there were other legal options.

You sicken me. Soldiers do not hunt innocent people. They do not go into people's home and murder children while they sleep. You know absolutely nothing about the military, yet you have to audacity to call US soldiers criminals and murderers. People who are willing to lay down their lives for you. Sure, they are not laying down there lives to defend the US right now, but what if someone attacked us? Those same soldiers you so easily call murderers would be the ones doing the fighting and the dying. I'm pretty sure that if the US were invaded, you would be pretty damn glad to have those soldiers protecting you, even though your comments deem you not worthy to be protected.

IC3

Did you even read the article?

He did not open fire on the car, He was being ordered to fire..and he felt he was in no danger from the approaching vehicle and he was right..The soldiers ordering him to fire were wrong.

From what Anderson says..even after the fact..He was told that if he is ordered to fire he is to open fire, even after they seen it was innocent people in the vehicle.

__________________
"To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi

Rdr4evr

What a typical "patriot" comment. Whether soldiers specifically hunt innocent people or not doesn't change the fact that they murder innocent people, be it accidental or purposeful. I don't care what justification you use for killing children, I'm sure you could find some typical drone answer, but please do spare me the flag waiving non-sense. They are murderers, they are killers, and it is their job to be so. They had a choice to make, and that choice was to become slaves of the government and feel as if they have a purpose, a reason to live in an otherwise sterile and insignificant life.

And for the umpteenth time, spare me the "they are dying and fighting for you" rhetoric. Nobody controls my life except myself, and if the US came under attack, the last person I would want help from is a soldier. I would defend myself, and if that means death for me, so be it, at least I would have died with dignity, at least I would die without selling my soul to an unjust cause, at least I would die knowing I didn't murder innocent people, at least I would die knowing I didn't submit to the bullshit propaganda of "hero", "courage" and all that other senseless garbage, at least I would die knowing I could think for myself, at least I would die knowing I made something of my life. So save the same old typical programmed "patriotic" response, it is irrelevant, sad, meaningless and annoying.

Fire

OK- I do not at this point support our leaderships handling of the war in iraq, nor do I believe that they got us into it for honorable reasons- However, these men signed a contract KNOWING that they were being paid to serve as soldiers, and if they had thought even a little about that then they would have known that they might be forced to follow the leadership of a monkey like W, while being supplied by a bean counter like rummie- It isnt as if they were drafted, and they have outlets other than running away- for christs sake they could likely wind up getting out, with a dishonorable discharge may be, but instead they have opted for desertion, which will not put them in a better boat- I generally think that these people are not so much cowards as stupid- and we are probably better off without them- I do pitty canada, as they probably will do little good ther either......

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Mood the more as our might lessens

bad jane

i'm torn on this one. while i agree that he signed up for it--anyone who's ever spoken to a recruiter knows you aren't signing up for war. i was hounded for years about joining the military on a regular basis, phone calls and visits with promises of spending money, education, travelling the world, blah blah blah. not once did anyone mention anything about war.

recruiters target hs kids. kids that legally aren't mature enough to buy a beer are mature enough to decide they're willing to die for their country? i call bs on that one.

the majority of these kids are signing up for extra cash, a way to pay for college or because it is a way out of whatever crappy existence they see for themselves if they don't. recruiters don't talk about what they're really signing up for. they are selling a pretty package and all they care about is hitting their quota.

while i don't agree with what these soldiers are doing, i do feel for them. i can't imagine the desperation they must have felt to make such a decision.

Schwan

Here's some more point to ponder on why this isn't so black and white. As I understand the article, that man did not run away from the battlefield. He completed a tour of duty - something I'm sure very little here have actually done - and chose to flee when he was ordered to go back. As far as signing contracts for money goes, they are just that - contracts (military, or not). You do not sell yourself indifintely. When you quit a job, you quit. The cash flow stops.

Lockjaw

Completing a tour of duty in country does NOT marshal you out of the Army. You have a hitch that you MUST serve. He came back from his tour had his R&R and was recalled to go back out while he was STILL IN THE ARMY. That is cowardess. If he didn't want to go back he should have said no. The MPs would have come picked him up and he would have been sitting in the prison for a few years but at least he would have his dignity.
And again folks stop using that whole "well you didn't serve..." I'm betting several of you that are trying to use that arguement would bristle at the thoughts of somebody telling you your opinion on war and soldiers didn't matter unless you served.

And Rdr4evr...quick question if you were put into a position where the enemy was on your back and the only way to save your own skin would be to run into a military APC that you would stand out in the street and get gunned down?

Carno

So by your logic, if a child ran out in front of a car, and the driver could not react in time, and the child was struck and killed, that driver would be a murderer? No ifs ands or buts about it? Straight to prison? You're no better than those morons who called the soldiers coming back from Vietnam baby-killers and murderers.

Yeah right. And if you were alive when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, you would have personally flown to Japan and died in a hail of righteous glory?

What exactly does it take for someone to feel so morally righteous and superior, like you do?

Schwan

I think it's a very well placed argument, especially in a situation when you folks judge a man for changing his beliefs after he saw war first hand (the real war, not the one on the Army's TV ads), and all that from the comfort of your own armchair.

Lebell

Enough.

Too much emotion and personal vindictive.

Locked.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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