Sexual Freedom? Not the issue here IMO - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ARTelevision · 05-21-2003, 04:49 PM

I'm in favor of people doing their "thing" in the privacy of their homes.
I'm not in favor of violating zoning laws.

Info-taining news and views!

I thought you'd get a thrill from the prurient descriptions, at least...

.....................
Sex club is shut down

Restraining order targets 'private' fetish group in Lakewood

Denver Post

LAKEWOOD - Just feet from busy West Sixth Avenue, people would whip, shock, pierce, burn and tie each other up in a nondescript industrial building.

But Lakewood officials have shut down the sex club known as The Labyrinth, winning a temporary restraining order and halting a series of monthly gatherings billed as "The Seven Deadly Sins."

"Every member of (City) Council was shocked when they heard about it," Lakewood Mayor Steve Burkholder said Tuesday. "We plan to pursue this with a great deal of effort. It does not reflect the moral value of the city or its citizens."

Lakewood police received an anonymous tip in March from a resident who came across a flier for a rave party with live sex acts.

Fliers for the 5805 W. Sixth Ave. club advertised that for the $12 admission fee, anyone 19 or older could "be a part of the action. Indulge in your senses. Fetish on a new level."

Police sent undercover Detective Karla Sarnacki into the club twice, and a Jefferson County judge issued a restraining order last week. The judge found that The Labyrinth violated zoning codes and was operating as an unlicensed cabaret. Under city code, a cabaret is defined as an establishment that features live adult entertainment.

"We have strict zoning criteria for adult entertainment businesses," City Manager Mike Rock said. "We determined that this facility was not zoned for this use and was not in compliance with our regulations."

But Susan Wright, spokeswoman for the New York-based National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, contends The Labyrinth is a private club where people who practice alternative sex can socialize.

"This is not adult entertainment. It is not a strip club," Wright said. "It's very important that there are zoning categories that allow for a space like this where people can get the education they need to do SM (sadomasochism) and fetish safely. They need to get lessons."

In an affidavit, Sarnacki detailed what she saw during her two visits to The Labyrinth and its 2,000-square-foot "dungeon" on March 29 and April 19. She said about 50 people attended the March event, which was the second in the "Seven Deadly Sins" series, and about 35 people were at the April gathering.

Nude or seminude participants were engaged in sexual activities, sometimes to the point where they were left semiconscious or convulsive, Sarnacki said.

On March 29, at the event billed as "Wrath," Sarnacki said she saw a naked woman restrained on a cross on a platform while a person stroked her buttocks with a bamboo stick.

Sarnacki said she saw an older man stroke another restrained woman with a paddle, whip and stick, and touch her genitals.

Sarnacki said a man "dressed as a Kabuki warrior lit a blowtorch and melted a puddle of wax" on a woman's back.

On April 19, Sarnacki said she returned for the event advertised as "Lust."

When she walked into the dungeon, a restrained person "dropped to his/her knees and went limp" after being flogged. The person lay on the floor semiconscious and appeared to convulse, Sarnacki said.

In an upstairs room, Sarnacki said she saw a man tie a rope around a nude woman's underarms. After stroking her with a whip, he lit a blowtorch and melted wax on her chest and then swung the blowtorch near her stomach and crotch. The woman went limp and was helped to a nearby couch.

Another man took 10 to 15 needles and pierced them through a woman's breasts, Sarnacki said. When he finished, he took a string and tied it around the needles and secured the string under her chin.

Trenton Gary, owner of Exotic Ventures, which operates The Labyrinth, could not be reached for comment.

In an undated letter to Lakewood officials, Gary said he wanted to get zoning approval to operate a small meeting and assembly hall at the Westwood Industrial Complex building.

Meetings, educational seminars, private parties and social gatherings would be held at the site from 6 p.m. to 3 a.m., he wrote.

"We have constitutional rights to assemble and to privacy," said Wright, of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. "I hope this isn't an attempt to shut down a private membership club."

Established in 1997, the group "is committed to altering the U.S. political, legal and social environment to guarantee equal rights for consenting adults who practice forms of alternative sexual expression," its website says.

Among the 30 coalition members are the National Leather Association International, the Boston Dungeon Society, Bound by Desire, Lesbian Sex Mafia, and Masters and Slaves Together.

The city is asking for a May 28 court date.

"Indulgence," the next Labyrinth event, was scheduled for May 30.
............

I'm for sexual freedom
I'm not for freedom from zoning laws.

"...is committed to altering the U.S. political, legal and social environment to guarantee equal rights for consenting adults who practice forms of alternative sexual expression..."

Their "defense" demonstrates that they are not practitioners of sexual freedom, they are political activists - do you see the difference?

Glory's Sun · 05-21-2003, 04:59 PM

I have to say that while I don't think it's wrong what they were doing inside the building (as long as it was consentual), that they were wrong for violating the zoning laws. It may have been a private club but the club still resides inside the city and the jurisdiction of the laws that are in effect. If they want to have a place where people can assemble like that they need to take the precautions to make sure that the legal side is taken care of also. They are hoping they can cast a cloud over the law by claiming to be private and using the sexual freedom card.

On a side note, isn't there a restaurant in New York called Fetish? You can get spanked and whipped or whatever you like before/after dinner.

BBtB · 05-21-2003, 05:04 PM

Well I would prefer them to go through all the legalness needed for such a club I can see why they didn't. There is no way they could have been formed legally. Which is the sad part.

QuasiMojo · 05-21-2003, 05:10 PM

"When In Rome"

If everyone considered would have just "kept it on the inside" none of this hyper-political bullshit would've erupted in the first place. If everything were to be contained there should've been no issue.<undercover Karla!?!?!!)))))

know what I mean?
or am I semi-drunk again....flailing myself against my keyboard

WhoaitsZ · 05-21-2003, 05:12 PM

is there anyway of knowing if they'd be willing to move their practices?

BBtB · 05-21-2003, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
is there anyway of knowing if they'd be willing to move their practices?

To where? The problem is the self righetous (sp?) "not in my backyard" people. They can't be an open normal buisness because there is always SOMEONE who will want to shut them down and sadly they will always suceed.

WhoaitsZ · 05-21-2003, 06:39 PM

i'm with you. i'm just curious if they've had an offer (which I doubt)

but if they do have a Red Light District... go there.

if not i dunno. i know i'm sick of people trying to control other people.. its not right.

Kadath · 05-21-2003, 06:46 PM

My friend is a member of such a club. They were within their rights insofar as zoning laws were concerned, but obviously those around them didn't want the club in their area, especially the local politicians, despite the fact that they disturbed no one. So they got busted for "electrical violations," despite the fact that they had just been inspected and cleared by the city two weeks before. It doesn't matter where you do it, and whether youbide by all the rules or not. They'll still get you, because they don't understand.

krwlz · 05-21-2003, 07:24 PM

Next thing you know they will be busting people for having an orgy in their own home....

Frowning Budah · 05-22-2003, 04:17 AM

There are lots of laws on the books these days that people ignore. If they operated before without getting caught they can do it again. Just find a new location and be more careful abt whom they invite.

ARTelevision · 05-22-2003, 04:33 AM

"To where? The problem is the self righetous (sp?) "not in my backyard" people. They can't be an open normal buisness because there is always SOMEONE who will want to shut them down and sadly they will always suceed."
..........

Well, perhaps there's a clue to be gotten here.
It's possible these sorts of establishments are antithetical to the common good. As I said, such freedoms practiced in the home are tolerable. It's an open question whether society ever would or should sanction them in a public, semi-public, zoned, or regulated venue. At some point - as witnessed by the HIV-saturated "bath houses" of NYC and elsewhere in the 1980s - public health issues are smart policy.

denim · 05-22-2003, 04:51 AM

I guess I'm just a conservative. Y'know, one of those people who says "live and let live"? IMHO, they might have been better off in an unincorporated area, not in a city or town. Of course, that wouldn't be as convienient. Also, the fact that they had fliers for this is just incredibly stupid.

Have they never heard the concept of "invitation-only"? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Given the undated letter, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt by calling them "ignorant".

The best way to avoid this kind of problem is to NOT LET PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT IT. I expect this kind of club is MUCH more common than we hear about. These people were just stupid enough to get caught.

If you think this is the "worst" thing that goes on in private, I suggest you cherish your naivite.

denim · 05-22-2003, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krwlz
Next thing you know they will be busting people for having an orgy in their own home....

Check out the sex-related laws in Georgia.

denim · 05-22-2003, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QuasiMojo
know what I mean?
or am I semi-drunk again....flailing myself against my keyboard

If this is what you're like when you're drunk, more people should get "drunk" like you. IMHO.

denim · 05-22-2003, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
They'll still get you, because they don't understand.

That's why you don't let them find out, agreed! Repeat the following until they understand it:

Commandment #11:

Thou Shalt Not Get Caught

To quote the Travelling Wilburys (sp):

In Jersey, anything's legal
As long as you don't get caught.

bender · 05-22-2003, 08:05 AM

Is this another attempt to legaslate morailty, or to subject the few to the whims of polls and what they tell us we should do ?
Or am I just way off on this

Kadath · 05-22-2003, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Well, perhaps there's a clue to be gotten here.
It's possible these sorts of establishments are antithetical to the common good. As I said, such freedoms practiced in the home are tolerable. It's an open question whether society ever would or should sanction them in a public, semi-public, zoned, or regulated venue. At some point - as witnessed by the HIV-saturated "bath houses" of NYC and elsewhere in the 1980s - public health issues are smart policy.

What if the club were members only? You don't(and can't) just walk in the front door out of curiosity. Everyone knows everyone else, and the only way you join is you're brought by a friend. Thus your concerns about health are alleviated. Is the club still a danger to the public good?

rs8001 · 05-22-2003, 04:55 PM

"Their 'defense' demonstrates that they are not practitioners of sexual freedom, they are political activists - do you see the difference?" I don't see the difference. Political activists, sure, seems they're going to have to be. How are they not practicioners of sexual freedom? I would say I'm a practitioner of sexual freedom everytime I masturbate. I'm not going to buy that the sexual activities of this group are just some sort of protest against those who wish to ban this behavior.

ARTelevision · 05-22-2003, 05:16 PM

I think it's a personal line one draws.
I'm involved in certain behaviors. I express those behaviors. Sometimes they run counter to social sanction. At some point I can either choose to politicize my participation in things or not. Personally, when I feel like what I'm doing is more political than personal, I stop doing it. Why? Because I'm not very interested in politics.

I guess I bring those personal views to bear in my opinions about what others are doing.

WhoaitsZ · 05-22-2003, 05:41 PM

okay . . . some ideas:

1) as one person said "do it in your home". if they get a bit more proffesional they can probably get together in someone home or basement/garage/warehouse.

2) try to step into politics to get some laws established ... yes, i know it will take years, but a persons freedom is worth our hours. get some Members Only policies. very, very frequent health checks. std, hiv, yada yada.

3) don't advertise it for awhile. underground it

as for just 'drawing a moral line' or whatnot, no fucking way. i'm not going to tell anyone to suck it up and give up your right unless they are hurtin someone or animal against their will.

if they wanna unite for cake, they should eat cake. if the want to unite for an orgy, let them unite for an orgy.

there is no real right or wrong in this type of thing... it just takes time. its possible.... imo

05-21-2003, 04:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Sexual Freedom? Not the issue here IMO I'm in favor of people doing their "thing" in the privacy of their homes. I'm not in favor of violating zoning laws. Info-taining news and views! I thought you'd get a thrill from the prurient descriptions, at least... ..................... Sex club is shut down Restraining order targets 'private' fetish group in Lakewood Denver Post LAKEWOOD - Just feet from busy West Sixth Avenue, people would whip, shock, pierce, burn and tie each other up in a nondescript industrial building. But Lakewood officials have shut down the sex club known as The Labyrinth, winning a temporary restraining order and halting a series of monthly gatherings billed as "The Seven Deadly Sins." "Every member of (City) Council was shocked when they heard about it," Lakewood Mayor Steve Burkholder said Tuesday. "We plan to pursue this with a great deal of effort. It does not reflect the moral value of the city or its citizens." Lakewood police received an anonymous tip in March from a resident who came across a flier for a rave party with live sex acts. Fliers for the 5805 W. Sixth Ave. club advertised that for the $12 admission fee, anyone 19 or older could "be a part of the action. Indulge in your senses. Fetish on a new level." Police sent undercover Detective Karla Sarnacki into the club twice, and a Jefferson County judge issued a restraining order last week. The judge found that The Labyrinth violated zoning codes and was operating as an unlicensed cabaret. Under city code, a cabaret is defined as an establishment that features live adult entertainment. "We have strict zoning criteria for adult entertainment businesses," City Manager Mike Rock said. "We determined that this facility was not zoned for this use and was not in compliance with our regulations." But Susan Wright, spokeswoman for the New York-based National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, contends The Labyrinth is a private club where people who practice alternative sex can socialize. "This is not adult entertainment. It is not a strip club," Wright said. "It's very important that there are zoning categories that allow for a space like this where people can get the education they need to do SM (sadomasochism) and fetish safely. They need to get lessons." In an affidavit, Sarnacki detailed what she saw during her two visits to The Labyrinth and its 2,000-square-foot "dungeon" on March 29 and April 19. She said about 50 people attended the March event, which was the second in the "Seven Deadly Sins" series, and about 35 people were at the April gathering. Nude or seminude participants were engaged in sexual activities, sometimes to the point where they were left semiconscious or convulsive, Sarnacki said. On March 29, at the event billed as "Wrath," Sarnacki said she saw a naked woman restrained on a cross on a platform while a person stroked her buttocks with a bamboo stick. Sarnacki said she saw an older man stroke another restrained woman with a paddle, whip and stick, and touch her genitals. Sarnacki said a man "dressed as a Kabuki warrior lit a blowtorch and melted a puddle of wax" on a woman's back. On April 19, Sarnacki said she returned for the event advertised as "Lust." When she walked into the dungeon, a restrained person "dropped to his/her knees and went limp" after being flogged. The person lay on the floor semiconscious and appeared to convulse, Sarnacki said. In an upstairs room, Sarnacki said she saw a man tie a rope around a nude woman's underarms. After stroking her with a whip, he lit a blowtorch and melted wax on her chest and then swung the blowtorch near her stomach and crotch. The woman went limp and was helped to a nearby couch. Another man took 10 to 15 needles and pierced them through a woman's breasts, Sarnacki said. When he finished, he took a string and tied it around the needles and secured the string under her chin. Trenton Gary, owner of Exotic Ventures, which operates The Labyrinth, could not be reached for comment. In an undated letter to Lakewood officials, Gary said he wanted to get zoning approval to operate a small meeting and assembly hall at the Westwood Industrial Complex building. Meetings, educational seminars, private parties and social gatherings would be held at the site from 6 p.m. to 3 a.m., he wrote. "We have constitutional rights to assemble and to privacy," said Wright, of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. "I hope this isn't an attempt to shut down a private membership club." Established in 1997, the group "is committed to altering the U.S. political, legal and social environment to guarantee equal rights for consenting adults who practice forms of alternative sexual expression," its website says. Among the 30 coalition members are the National Leather Association International, the Boston Dungeon Society, Bound by Desire, Lesbian Sex Mafia, and Masters and Slaves Together. The city is asking for a May 28 court date. "Indulgence," the next Labyrinth event, was scheduled for May 30. ............ I'm for sexual freedom I'm not for freedom from zoning laws. "...is committed to altering the U.S. political, legal and social environment to guarantee equal rights for consenting adults who practice forms of alternative sexual expression..." Their "defense" demonstrates that they are not practitioners of sexual freedom, they are political activists - do you see the difference? __________________ create evolution

05-21-2003, 05:04 PM	#3 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	Well I would prefer them to go through all the legalness needed for such a club I can see why they didn't. There is no way they could have been formed legally. Which is the sad part. __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

05-21-2003, 05:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
QuasiMojo King Knave Location: Lancaster	"When In Rome" If everyone considered would have just "kept it on the inside" none of this hyper-political bullshit would've erupted in the first place. If everything were to be contained there should've been no issue.<undercover Karla!?!?!!))))) know what I mean? or am I semi-drunk again....flailing myself against my keyboard __________________ AzAbOv ZoBeLoE Last edited by QuasiMojo; 05-21-2003 at 05:19 PM..

05-21-2003, 06:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	My friend is a member of such a club. They were within their rights insofar as zoning laws were concerned, but obviously those around them didn't want the club in their area, especially the local politicians, despite the fact that they disturbed no one. So they got busted for "electrical violations," despite the fact that they had just been inspected and cleared by the city two weeks before. It doesn't matter where you do it, and whether youbide by all the rules or not. They'll still get you, because they don't understand. __________________ it's quiet in here

05-22-2003, 04:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	"To where? The problem is the self righetous (sp?) "not in my backyard" people. They can't be an open normal buisness because there is always SOMEONE who will want to shut them down and sadly they will always suceed." .......... Well, perhaps there's a clue to be gotten here. It's possible these sorts of establishments are antithetical to the common good. As I said, such freedoms practiced in the home are tolerable. It's an open question whether society ever would or should sanction them in a public, semi-public, zoned, or regulated venue. At some point - as witnessed by the HIV-saturated "bath houses" of NYC and elsewhere in the 1980s - public health issues are smart policy. __________________ create evolution

05-21-2003, 04:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I have to say that while I don't think it's wrong what they were doing inside the building (as long as it was consentual), that they were wrong for violating the zoning laws. It may have been a private club but the club still resides inside the city and the jurisdiction of the laws that are in effect. If they want to have a place where people can assemble like that they need to take the precautions to make sure that the legal side is taken care of also. They are hoping they can cast a cloud over the law by claiming to be private and using the sexual freedom card. On a side note, isn't there a restaurant in New York called Fetish? You can get spanked and whipped or whatever you like before/after dinner.

05-21-2003, 05:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	is there anyway of knowing if they'd be willing to move their practices?

05-21-2003, 06:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	i'm with you. i'm just curious if they've had an offer (which I doubt) but if they do have a Red Light District... go there. if not i dunno. i know i'm sick of people trying to control other people.. its not right.

05-21-2003, 07:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	Next thing you know they will be busting people for having an orgy in their own home....

05-22-2003, 04:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	There are lots of laws on the books these days that people ignore. If they operated before without getting caught they can do it again. Just find a new location and be more careful abt whom they invite.

05-22-2003, 04:51 AM	#12 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I guess I'm just a conservative. Y'know, one of those people who says "live and let live"? IMHO, they might have been better off in an unincorporated area, not in a city or town. Of course, that wouldn't be as convienient. Also, the fact that they had fliers for this is just incredibly stupid. Have they never heard the concept of "invitation-only"? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Given the undated letter, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt by calling them "ignorant". The best way to avoid this kind of problem is to NOT LET PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT IT. I expect this kind of club is MUCH more common than we hear about. These people were just stupid enough to get caught. If you think this is the "worst" thing that goes on in private, I suggest you cherish your naivite.

05-22-2003, 08:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
bender Addict Location: around the corner	Is this another attempt to legaslate morailty, or to subject the few to the whims of polls and what they tell us we should do ? Or am I just way off on this

05-22-2003, 04:55 PM	#18 (permalink)
rs8001 Crazy Location: Indiana	"Their 'defense' demonstrates that they are not practitioners of sexual freedom, they are political activists - do you see the difference?" I don't see the difference. Political activists, sure, seems they're going to have to be. How are they not practicioners of sexual freedom? I would say I'm a practitioner of sexual freedom everytime I masturbate. I'm not going to buy that the sexual activities of this group are just some sort of protest against those who wish to ban this behavior.

05-22-2003, 05:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I think it's a personal line one draws. I'm involved in certain behaviors. I express those behaviors. Sometimes they run counter to social sanction. At some point I can either choose to politicize my participation in things or not. Personally, when I feel like what I'm doing is more political than personal, I stop doing it. Why? Because I'm not very interested in politics. I guess I bring those personal views to bear in my opinions about what others are doing. __________________ create evolution

05-22-2003, 05:41 PM	#20 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	okay . . . some ideas: 1) as one person said "do it in your home". if they get a bit more proffesional they can probably get together in someone home or basement/garage/warehouse. 2) try to step into politics to get some laws established ... yes, i know it will take years, but a persons freedom is worth our hours. get some Members Only policies. very, very frequent health checks. std, hiv, yada yada. 3) don't advertise it for awhile. underground it as for just 'drawing a moral line' or whatnot, no fucking way. i'm not going to tell anyone to suck it up and give up your right unless they are hurtin someone or animal against their will. if they wanna unite for cake, they should eat cake. if the want to unite for an orgy, let them unite for an orgy. there is no real right or wrong in this type of thing... it just takes time. its possible.... imo