Lebell

I read this and saw it of another example of the basic differences in philosophy between what we call the left and the right.

Here, the advice is to not defend yourself and to rely on the government to defend you.

This is anathema to me and many to the right of center, as are many similar ideas the left proposes for the 'betterment society'.

My second thought was, "Who is John Galt?"

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1377062004

---------------------------------------------
So what do you do when your home is burgled?

DR IAN STEPHEN


THE murder of John Monckton and the attack on his wife, Homeyra, during an apparent burglary in their London home has once again highlighted the true dangers and indeed the legal and moral dilemma members of the public face when they are confronted with intruders on their own property.

From a police perspective, the advice to potential victims of burglaries is unequivocal and clear-cut and you should never "have a go", so to speak, but for the victims of crime this is a very difficult thing to put into practice, especially when your natural instincts are to defend yourself, your family and your own property - the very pillars of your life that are being violated and potentially destroyed by criminals.

As a law-abiding individual confronted by an intruder in your home you face a catch-22. If you attack the burglar, or react in an "over the top" manner, as was recently illustrated in the case of Tony Martin who shot intruders in his Norfolk farmhouse, you will inevitably end up on the receiving end of a prison sentence that will far outstrip that imposed on the intruder in your own home. This situation has resulted in a lack of belief in the law among the public or rather a belief that the law isn’t exactly on your side when your home is broken into.

To this end it is perhaps important not to dwell on the situation involving Mr Martin because, regardless of the appeal procedure he successfully went through to secure his freedom, in many ways the law still points to his particular attack on the intruders who entered his home as a pre-meditated assault. He had previously been the victim of a number of burglaries within his home and as a result of this he was effectively prepared for further intrusion and reacted as such when his farmhouse was broken into again.

But what the Martin case does reflect is the general fear felt by the public over rising crime rates and the extent to which they will go to protect themselves. As the case involving Mr and Mrs Monckton shows those most at risk from aggravated burglary are the wealthy, individuals identified by criminals as prosperous professionals. However, at the other end of the scale, people living in inner cities and on council estates face a similar level of risk.

When individuals are confronted by intruders there are some actions they should follow. Direct contact should be avoided whenever possible. If unavoidable, the victim should adopt a state of active passivity. In most cases the best form of defence is always avoidance. If this isn’t possible, act passively, be careful what you say or do and give up valuables without a struggle. This allows the victim to take charge of the situation, without the intruder’s awareness, through subtle and non-confrontational means. People can cooperate but initiate nothing. By doing nothing there is no chance of inadvertently initiating violence by saying something such as "Please don’t hurt me".

In a situation involving housebreaking it is also important to remember that many common burglars are adolescents, most likely starting out on the first rung of the criminal ladder, and they are therefore prone to lashing out if confronted and in the worst case scenarios killing out of panic and fear.

Sometimes the perpetrator of a burglary is even more terrified than the victim and in many cases when things go wrong it is the perpetrator of the crime who panics. Although they sometimes go equipped with weapons, in most cases they probably don’t intend to use them but in the heat of the moment, and the fear of either getting caught or attacked themselves, they use them. They don’t expect the person they are trying to hold up to retaliate or react. Mostly the knife is there simply for intimidation rather than intent to use it and they finish up killing somebody by accident rather than design.

This, of course, does not excuse their actions, but it is certainly worth taking on-board when you consider confronting an intruder. While saying this, in my own experience counselling victims of crime in recent years, there has also recently been a marked increase in the use or the threatened use of dangerous weapons in burglaries and common assaults. This, in itself, is a deeply worrying trend and, although not entirely excusing over-retaliation from homeowners, creates an understandable degree of sympathy for members of the public who lash out at intruders in their home. In truth it is an incredibly difficult situation to assess.

What is perhaps most important is dealing with the victims of the crime and helping them through the aftermath. As someone with wide experience of counselling the victims of violent robberies in their homes it is essential to remember the post-traumatic stress associated with such incidents.

The truth is aggravated burglary causes enormous stress as the victim’s home has been violated. This situation is magnified when the victims and their family have been threatened or assaulted and can lead to a whole range of post-traumatic stress disorders. Like the victims of rape and violent assault, members of the public who experience criminal intrusion in their home experience episodes and often show all the classic symptoms of post-traumatic stress like panic attacks, sleep disorders, flashbacks and social withdrawal.

Like other serious crimes the aftermath of a burglary can be the start of a process that continues to destroy the victim’s self-esteem and even relationships with their loved ones and more often than not reinforces their feelings of guilt and self-blame over the situation. The damage to the victim from the original crime can also be magnified by the court experience and, more likely in today’s society, the lack of support from local authorities and the police.

The trauma can be dealt with in a number of ways with professional help, counselling to develop effective coping strategies and taking time off from stressful professional activities. People who fail to seek help often develop further psychological problems. Men especially are not good at accepting support, but some simple counselling immediately after an attack can substantially reduce the risk of long-term psychological problems.

• Dr Ian Stephen is an Honorary Lecturer (Forensic Psychology) at Glasgow Caledonian University and has worked in a number of prisons with long-term prisoners and young offenders. He was a consultant to forensic psychology television series Cracker.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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ratbastid

So... Despite what the experts say (and like it or not, the police ARE the experts when it comes to dealing with crime--a police officer will deal with 100 times more crime this month than you'll deal with in your lifetime), you're saying they're wrong?

Look, what's more valuable, your home or your life? If somebody wants my physical posessions and had a weapon capable of depriving me of my life, I'm not going to try anything heroic to keep what I own.

Heroic, macho (right-wing) chest-thumping gets people killed. Does that mean I'm willing to roll over and be a victim? Absolutely not. But I'd rather deal with crime on a sociological level. Once somebody's actually burgling your actual home, it's a little too late to deal with it well in my book.

bigoldalphamale

interesting read.

nonetheless, where i come from, if you're breaking into my house, you are asking for whatever ends up happening to you as a direct result. period.

its niether macho nor conservative...its just how it is.

Lebell

But don't you see? That's EXACTLY what they want you to do. This follows on the heals of advice from the same "experts" that tell women not to fight back when they are being raped.

So yes, I see that as exactly what is being endorsed.

Is my property more important than my life?

No.

But that doesn't mean that a thief will get a pass in my house.

If you want to call it "chest thumping", that's your privilege. I call it refusing to be a victim.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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tropple

Hehhehe...

Yeah. Right. Rely on 911 and the police. BuWaHhahahaaaaa! That's great!

Oh, wait. They're serious? IMHO, bad advice unless you want to be owned.

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bigoldalphamale

i kinda see where the hippy is coming from...but if you come into my house without my permission, where my wife and kids sleep...you're just gonna end up regretting it. one way or another.

flstf

The problem with with not doing anything and waiting for the police is you don't know what the intruder's intentions are. Burglers who break into occupied houses must be a little crazy anyway. If you can make a little noise and scare them off, fine. But otherwise it's time to chamber a round in the shotgun and get ready. If you are home when they break in then you are probably going to be discovered by them and what if they don't want a witness?

OFKU0

I guess each instance is unique from one to the next, but if I were to confront someone in my home at 3 a.m my first thought wouldn't be of passivisity, but rather to protect myself the best I could even if it meant violence. But, if 2 or 3 people are there then better to evacuate and call 911 than fight.

I've got a baseball bat by my bed (sorry no guns allowed in Canada) and a lead pipe under my drivers seat and if for an instance I feel my life is endangered, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use them regardless if the perp is 16 or 60, male or female.

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Ustwo

You know if everyone fought back, odds are not many homes would be robbed.

This is why areas without gun control have lower crime rates then like communities with gun control. If you break into my house, my first thoughts are on my families safety. If there is no way to get them out easily, whoever broke in is going to die.

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Coppertop

wtf?

Most people would say I lean to the left, but I have no problems with guns or them being used on people who break into your home. Shoot the fucker.

Livia Regina

I hate articles like that. If you come into my house without my invitation I will do whatever I can to incapacitate you or kill you if I feel it is necessary. I don't know what you are doing there, I don't know what you want, so I am going to assume the worst and protect myself. Likewise if you try and rape me I feel perfectly justified in defending myself. In fact, if you happen to lose your ability to have an erection, ever again, I think the world is better off. If more people fought back when they were being victimized there would be less violent crime.

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timalkin

What a sad, sad country to live in. There's just something wrong when you have to question whether you'll go to jail if you defend your life. Any society where criminals have more rights than victims is just plain wrong. I wish I could personally thank my ancestors for leaving such a place.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Does anyone else gather that idea's like those expressed in the article, along with that of "gun control" go to explain with Briton's violent crime rates have tripled over the last few years?

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manalone

Not me, but then I remember that gun *control* wasn't recently introduced. I also remember that there are considerable direct economic reasons for the tripling of the crime rate in England - underfunding and mismanagement of the Police being A1 on that list.

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Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
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Carno

I keep a bat and a chain by my bed just in case someone breaks into my apartment

Mephisto2

Reference?

Violent crime has increased by 11% according to the BCS.


Mr Mephisto

JumpinJesus

I don't own a gun, but I've been a victim of burglary once and attempted burglary once.

I was visiting friends over the weekend many years ago. I arrived home to find my front door open and the inside of my house trashed. Everything of value was gone - electronics, and other small things. The police came out and told me that more than likely, they'd never catch the criminal and even more likely, whoever did it would return within the month because I'd have new stuff. I'm not huge on gun ownership but am not a gun control freak either. Instead, I slept with a baseball bat under my bed for a while.

Fast forward 12 years. I'm living in a different city. I'm awake one night reading in bed when I hear a strange sound coming from downstairs. It sounded like my cat trying to scratch the screen on our window. My wife was sound asleep and I noticed that our cat was laying on the floor by our bed. I grabbed my baseball bat and went to the top of the stairs and listened. There was a slight hope that if someone was breaking in, I'd catch them at it. I was not wanting to be a victim again and would have loved a bit of vengeance. My heart was pounding in my chest as I stood and listened for a moment. When I was certain it was the sound of someone trying to come into my home, I yelled down the stairs, "If you're there when I get down there, the medics will be washing your blood off the walls." I then leapt down the stairs to see this guy push himself out our window and take off running down the alleyway. I had an incredible rush going on and was about to take off after him when I realized I was in nothing but my underwear.

I called the cops to report it. The conversation went a bit like this:

Me: I just caught someone trying to break into my home.
Them: Are they in the house?
Me: No, I scared them off.
Them: Was anything taken or was anyone hurt?
Me: No, I think I scared them before they actually got in.
Them: Did you get a look at the person?
Me: Not really, he looked like he was about 20 years old, white guy wearing a black or blue sweatshirt.
Them: We could send someone out but if it's not that serious, we're a little busy right now.
Me: What should I do, then?
Them: We can give you a number to call to report it and an investigator can come out tomorrow to look into it.
Me: But aren't I reporting it now?
Them: This is an emergency number, we don't take reports like that.
Me: What's the number?
Them: yada yada yada. We'll have a patrol drive around the area and see if they notice anything. Other than that there isn't a whole lot we can do.
Me: [dumbfounded silence]

The number they gave me was a recorded message where you leave the details of the incident. I was never called back and no one ever came to my home. I told my neighbor about it and he said the same thing happened to him the year before with the same response from the police. Unlike me, he bought a gun.

My take is this: apparently, in many cases, you're on your own to protect your own home. Do it as you see fit.

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eribrav

We have a low crime rate where I live . I firmly believe that is because most of the population up here is armed. Most folks have deer hunters in their families so there is a minimum of a 12 gauge shotgun in the house.

If you choose to rob my house, the last sound you ever hear may be the action closing on the 12 gauge. Is that worth the risk?

Aborted

Any fool who breaks into my house, puts my family at risk and attempts to take my stuff better be prepared to pay for it with his face.

No right-wing chest thumping here, it's just how it would go down. Political alignment bears no relevance to someone faced with an intruder in their own home.

People have every right to defend their property without fearing any legal repercussions. Of course, if someone went too far (say, shot an intruder to death while he was making his bid for freedom with their toaster tucked under his arm), then their actions should be judged on the weight of the crime and with the circumstances considered, as with anything else. Perhaps this seems a tad idealistic given the spin that tends to be woven into any situation brought under the public eye, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible and can't happen.

whocarz

I'm so glad I don't live in a socialist shithole like England. If someone breaks into my house, chances are they'll be leaving in a police cruiser or hearse.

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scout

You sir are exactly right. Right here in the good ole' USA there are numerous court cases backing this up. The police are not legally bound to protect you, only to catch the perps and bring them to justice after the crime has been committed. Everyone is responsible for their own personal safety.

Journeyman

What moral dillema?
There's enough crazy people in this world that if there is an unknown person invading my home at night, I'm not going to jeapordize my family's safety by taking the chance that "active passivity" is going to cut it.

basmoq

I have a gun for intruders, and I wouldn't hesitate to see if they have a weapon... once I see them clearly enough to make sure it isn't a relative, pow... I also have a security system to insure I never have to actually shoot one...

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Stick

No moral dilemma for me. If you break into my house while I'm here you will leave in a body bag.

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Menacing; threatening. Of or being an omen, especially an evil one.

The Prophet

Police are experts when it comes to dealing with crime on the street. There is no cop alive that is more expert than I when it somes to protecting what is mine, inside my home, and that includes my possessions as well as the lives of the ones I love.

You are right, my life (or the lives of family) is far more important. But, what is more important - my possessions or a criminals life? If he is standing in my living room, ready to take my possessions? The smallest thing I own becomes far more valuable than his miserable life.

Right again, but the sociological level deserves a chance only while crime remains on the street, out there where the cops are the experts. If a person has problems get help and deal with it, whether they do it voluntarily or it must be done by force. Once a criminal crosses my threshold uninvited, it becomes my choice on how to deal with crime.

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"The death-knell of the republic had rung as soon as the active power became lodged in the hands of those who sought, not to do justice to all citizens, rich and poor alike, but to stand for one special class and for its interests as opposed to the interests of others. " - Theodore Roosevelt

Pacifier

yep, we all know how low the crime and murder rates in the US are....

and since i know it i will make sure that you have no time to fight me, i will shoot first...

that is IMO the problem with guns, the "start level" of violence is higher, it is easier to start a fighting. Like the article said the burglar will also be in panic and if he thinks you are armed he will probably panicly start shooting first.

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— Albert Einstein

The Prophet

The vast majority of crimes are commited by criminals, drug dealers, etc, against each other....

Very few burgalers carry a weapon beyond what they need to break in and that is likely laying in the bushes below the window or beside the door. Besides, in my home, who is going to have the upper hand - myself or the surprised thief?

And what is the suggestion here from the passivists voice?

If I hear a strange noise in my kitchen, late at night when we are all in bed, what would you suggest I do? Hide trembling in the closet and hope they don't find the room my child is in? Ask them to leave so they can go over to my neighbors and take their shit? Hold them for the cops so they can go through the court system, burning up tax dollars and continue to be a cost to society?

To hell with that. Drop the bastard before he can reach the door or window he entered.

__________________
"The death-knell of the republic had rung as soon as the active power became lodged in the hands of those who sought, not to do justice to all citizens, rich and poor alike, but to stand for one special class and for its interests as opposed to the interests of others. " - Theodore Roosevelt

flstf

The start level of violence occurs when someone breaks into your house. If the sound of a round chambering in a shotgun doesn't scare them off and they choose to stay and fight, then they will be at a huge disadvantage since they won't know the layout as well as you. If they are panicked because they thought no one was home then they better say something and give up or run quickly.

If you did nothing, how can you take the chance that the intruder won't want to eliminate you as a witness? How do you even know they are just a burgler? I don't think anyone wants to shoot and kill one of the 12 year old neighbor kids but they better identify themselves pretty quickly. If they don't run or identify themselves then you have to assume the worse.

stevie667

In response to the original post, i have to say that the views expressed in your source are slightly askewed.

Firstly, Britains most senior police officer, and now the Prime Minister have clearly said that the homeowner should have the rights to defend themselves and only be prosecuted if they used 'gratuitous (sp) force' on a burglar entering their home.

Over the past two weeks, there has been a huge uproar over this subject in parliment and throughout the country, which caused our PM to go completly 180 in his stance on home protection, and there is now a bill being put through to allow the homeowner to defend themself with force.

Visit http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/default.stm for proper news about Britain.


In my opinion, anyone who enters my house and intends to steal my stuff and put my family in even the remotest danger gets a barbell upside the head.

WillyPete

Here's some.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../10/ngun10.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...por_right.html

Remember that even though it says it's trebled, the UK is nowhere near the amount of gun related crime in the US. We have 1/4th the population, yet USA has a much higher figure per capita.


I personally think the original article in the first post was more of what the average citizen should do when faced with an intruder. Kind of like advice for what one should do when faced with a potentially dangerous dog.
I can understand it. For our American friends who own firearms and are trained and ready to use them in their homes: YOU migh have the restraint and the preparation to protect yourselves, but what about the burglar? You might have ammunition in a home defense weapon that will not penetrate walls, but do they? And if your first shot misses, what happens if they decide to fire wildly?

However, should the attitude as suggested in the artcile become widespread and encouraged by the authorities, it will give burglars more confidence.

British laws should be changing soon, giving homeowners more right to defend themselves and this article would also seem to be asking to tone down the amount of cheering for homeowners to use lethal force in their own homes.

WillyPete

And I do love that old story of the guy in the UK who called 999 to report some thieves who were breaking into his shed, again. The operator called to say that there were no available units to respond to a break in.

He called back 3 minutes later to say there was no rush, he'd shot them.

Within 10 minutes, ambulances and armed response police were all over his house and caught the theives red-handed.
They questioned the homeowner and asked:"What's the meaning of this? You told us that you'd shot them!"
He just replied: "And you told me that there was no-one available to respond."

thingstodo

YOu are indeed wiley. I love this story. And it is a great way to illustrate a point: you need to set the stage for what you feel you need.

If I call and say someone is trying to get in my window, it is very different from calling and saying someone is in my house right now with a gun.

Most of the crimes handled by police are crimes in the past tense. You're usually pretty occupied when the crime is actually happening, so that leaves out the present and you won't get any response if you think the crime is going to happen.

If you walk through my door uninvited, especially at night, be prepared for hell if I'm inside. And if yo show up when I'm not home and make it in, be prepared for the same thing when I show up. It's that simple. I call it personal responsibility.

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nowthen

I am originally from the UK, but thank god I left. My mother was telling me a story a little while ago, she still lives there. basically what happened was that a gang of scum broke in to a rich guys house, forced him to open his safe, took all the jewellery, valubles etc... but that wasnt enough. they then tied the guy to the kitchen table, so he was looking in to the front room, and the gang repeatedly raped his wife for hours on end. while he was forced to watch.

anbody can say anything they want, but, as many people have already expressed here, if i find somebody in my house when they shouldnt be there they are going to receive my full fury. they might only be after the dvd player, but unfortunately for them, my wife is under the same roof and i will assume they are meaning to harm her. its the only rational conclusion in my mind, the price for not reacting with extreme and deadly force could be too high to pay.

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Aborted

Correct me if I've misunderstood you here, but I think you'll find that such horrific events aren't exclusive to Britain.

I'm sorry? At what point did this become an excerise in nation bashing? It's not appreciated and adds nothing to your point. An intruder in one's home is a fairly simple concept, so whichever "ism" you assign to a particular country's political orientation is completely irrelevant. When defending your home you do so as an individual, a human being protecting your possessions and your loved ones, it doesn't matter on which side of the political spectrum you sit. Similar debates are bound to be going on in governments the world over, even in those countries that aren't "socialist shitholes", and to claim otherwise would be naive.

whocarz

I simply call it as I see it. The fact that a man went to jail for protecting himself and his loved ones from people that broke into his house is disgusting to me.

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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Seaver

No but here in America he's allowed to give them the shotgun.

I will NEVER let our government (FOR the people) tell me that I cant defend myself or my family. I will NEVER let anyperson convince me that laying passive is better than taking an active defense. If a person is breaking into my house I dont know if it's to steal my tv, rape my wife (in the future), or try to whipe us all out because he's a psychopath. It's not my job to figure that out, and quite frankly I wouldnt care then or after the fact. My job is to protect myself and those around me, if he doesnt like it he can stay the fuck out of my house.

Zeraph

I see both sides. No your life isn't worth any item that might be stolen but for a lot of people it might be worth it for the principles of having law and order in a society.

MSD

I have a basic theory on home defense. Both armed and unarmed intruders are dealt with using a shotgun prepared specifically for the purpose of home defense. In the split second that an intruder is stunned by the beam of a tactical flashlight, a threat assessment can be made. If the intruder is not an immediate threat, he will be shot once. If the intruder is an immediate threat, all it takes is one quick pump to eject the beanbag and chamber a 00 buckshot shell.


Imagine, for a moment, that you are a robber standing on the sidewalk between two homes. On your right is a car in the driveway with a bumper sticker reading "Proud Member of the NRA." On your left is a car with the sticker reading "Guns Kill." Which house would you choose to rob? British law turns every house into the one on the left.

Stompy

Let them get away, that way you can claim more than what you really lost on your insurance.

In this day of small expensive electronics, it will pay off.

Also, you have every right to kill an intruder, regardless of what you read or what a judge elsewhere decided. The fact is, in the dark, late at night, you don't have time to stop and chit-chat about whether or not the burglar has a weapon.

Trust me, anyone who kills an intruder won't get a prison sentence. Just because it happened to one person (and I'm sure a few more throughout history), doesn't mean it'll happen to everyone. It's highly UNLIKELY you will be sent to prison for doing this.

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Stick

Here in Australia, specifically the state of New South Wales, thanks to the Shooters Party, shooters have a representative in parliament who has > negotiated with Premier and Attorney-General to absorb Home Invasion and Workplace Bills into a wider amendment to the Crimes Act (Crimes Amendment (Self Defence) Act) which extends the absolute right of self-defence to citizens anywhere, not just in home or workplace. It guarantees a citizen immunity from civil and criminal liability, if they defend themselves against attack; and also provides that if they are charged after fending off an attack, the onus of proof is reversed and the prosecution must prove that they did not believe, in their own minds, that they had to take whatever action they did to defend themselves. This is now law." Amen.

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ominous adj.
Menacing; threatening. Of or being an omen, especially an evil one.