Children in public places

[Balaniki]

<beginning of rant>

Can someone explain to me why parents think that it is acceptable to not supervise or control their children in public places?

My hub and I go out for a nice dinner and we are assaulted by the screaming baby in the booth next to us, have to watch some small child run through the restuarant (almost tripping servers carrying large trays of hot food), etc.

And if - GOD FORBID - I tell the child to stop running around, the parents GLARE at me as if I'm a serial baby-killer.

Do I like kids? Yes - WELL BEHAVED ones.

I'm the youngest of 8. My parents used to take all 8 of us out to restuarants. We were expected to sit at the table quietly, eat our food and then remain at the table until everyone was finished and we were ready to leave.

How hard is that? It's really annoying to be somewhere and know that my DOGS are better behaved than the kids we see - but my dogs arent' allowed there.

<end of rant>

[Schwan]

Kids between 3-15 irritate me infinitely. Don't worry, you're not alone in this, a lot of people fall victim to parents' terror. That's when they simply can't come to terms with the fact that their kid is a brat, and a spoiled one, too. I've seen too much of that.

[Cynthetiq]

i currently am still in Long Island... suburbia filled with children....

soon I'll be living in Manhattan, there are kids that are in the area that I'll be living in, but at least I won't see the misbehaved little things at all the restaurants and such...only movies, museums, and the occassional Broadway show. Thank god they behave at Broadway shows still, ushers there still do their jobs and remove people for behaving badly.

[monty121052]

When I was growing up the old adage was ,children should be seen and not heard.
As you are no longer allowed to disaplin your kids at all now it is almost impossible to control them. I guess that we have brought it on our selves.

[lurkette]

I think part of the problem is that most parents have no clue how to parent effectively. They think that discipline is either threats, physical punishment, or cajoling and wheedling. I think basic behaviorism should be a prerequisite for all parents. Reward behavior you want to encourage, punish behavior (or remove rewards) you want to extinguish. And be consistent. My dog is more well behaved than most peoples' children.

[spectre]

Originally posted by lurkette
I think part of the problem is that most parents have no clue how to parent effectively. They think that discipline is either threats, physical punishment, or cajoling and wheedling.

Yup. The only problem though is that threats don't work if the parents don't follow through on them. Telling little Johnny that his Xbox is going to get taken away, when he knows through experience that it won't happen, just reinforces the idea that no action will be taken and what the kid is doing is acceptable.

Parents need to start taking more responsiblity when it comes to keeping their children from misbehaving.

[hotdogg]

Many parents feel guilty because of the lack of quakity time they spend with thier kids due to work or whatever...I owned a restaurant years ago and would actually have to tell parents to keep thier little monsters seated or we would ask them to leave the restaurant. If a child gets hurt in your restaurant, and the management did nothing to stop the obnoxious little bastard...guess who got sued?

[splck]

Crying babies are a part of life folks, get used to it.
However, bad behaivior by older kids dosn't have to be accepted.
My kids behave quite well out in public (quiet, no running around, no fighting), but they occasionally have a break down and loose it. I can tell you that the ones that get pissed off tend to be people that don't have kids (I was one of those people too). Now that I have kids and I see a parent having a hard time with their kids I just give them the "I know what you're going through" look as long as they are dealing with the issue. If my kids start acting up, I'll deal with them and or remove them from the room so they don't disturb other people. I also don't take them to places where it's not appropriate to take kids.

The trick is to follow through on all disipline, as much as it pains you to do so.

Just wait till you have children...you might just change you opinion about kids in public. Chances are you'll be getting "the look", no matter if you are the best parent on earth (in your own mind).

[butthead]

I'd still like it tested and proven that it's the parents fault 100% of the time.

[seretogis]

Originally posted by butthead
I'd still like it tested and proven that it's the parents fault 100% of the time.

If a child does something undesirable, it is the parents' fault.

[lurkette]

Originally posted by butthead
I'd still like it tested and proven that it's the parents fault 100% of the time.

It may not be the parent's fault that the child is screaming or misbehaving, but it's absolutely the parent's fault if the child is allowed to keep screaming and misbehaving in a public place. If a kid can't behave they should be removed until they can - take them to the restroom or the car or whatever. It's common courtesy to the rest of the people in the public place who don't want to listen to screaming children. It's different if you're in a park, or even in a grocery store, but in a restaurant or a theater or wherever people pay for an experience, that experience should not include a free floorshow of obnoxious brats.

[sierra2774]

My Friends cannot even go out to dinner or shopping because their kids are brats...Mine, however, I can take anywhere...They listen and they are respectful.

But I do understand you, because I see the same thing happening, but you have to understand that it is the parents fault for not raising the kids right, not the kids fault.

[Phaenx]

We always behaved for mom, because she forced us to, with violence. That's what these kids need, if the parents don't respond to threats, then it's time to trip one of their kids.

[tikki]

Originally posted by splck
Crying babies are a part of life folks, get used to it.

If you have a crying child, you should have the courtesy to go outside or to the bathroom when your child starts screaming at the top of his or her lungs.

Kids running around doesn't really bother me that much, as long as they aren't screaming.

[butthead]

If a child does something undesirable, it is the parents' fault.

This seems unreasonable.

It may not be the parent's fault that the child is screaming or misbehaving, but it's absolutely the parent's fault if the child is allowed to keep screaming and misbehaving in a public place. If a kid can't behave they should be removed until they can - take them to the restroom or the car or whatever. It's common courtesy to the rest of the people in the public place who don't want to listen to screaming children. It's different if you're in a park, or even in a grocery store, but in a restaurant or a theater or wherever people pay for an experience, that experience should not include a free floorshow of obnoxious brats.

This, however, is much more agreeable.

[lurkette]

Originally posted by splck
Crying babies are a part of life folks, get used to it.

They're not part of my life, and I like it that way. Parents can't help it if a baby is crying but they can take the baby elsewhere if it is really loud or long-lasting. And crying babies just don't belong some places, like theaters, restaurants, etc.

Just wait till you have children...you might just change you opinion about kids in public.

I find this a little condescending. Brats are brats regardless of whether you have kids or not. I'm perfectly willing to cut people some slack if their kids are just being a little rambunctious and loud, but it's not okay with me and would never be okay if the parents aren't making any effort to curb truly obnoxious behavior.

[krwlz]

Damn, if I misbehaved, I got taken away from the place, wherever it happened to be, and got a stern scolding....It usually got worse when I got home, I soon figured it out, and was as polite as I could be.

[chavos]

I am completely reminded of Brodie's rant about esclatators and small children in Mallrats...

The sad thing is that parents really do impose on other people. The solution might be to have some businesses, etc...be child unfriendly to attract non-parents, and others chase the little hellions and their parents.

[LittleOralAnnie]

I feel it's only the parents fault when the child acts up and they disregard it and don't do anything to control them.

The majority of parents do what they can to raise their kids properly and teach them the difference between right and wrong. But some kids, no matter how well you treat them or raise them, are just all out brats.

[GakFace]

i remember once when I was in best buy.. some little girl was having a temper tantrum, and she got mad and just laid down on the floor, to prove she wasn't going anywhere.. mind you she wasn't staying all that quiet. The mother was mad and said FINE! YOU JUST STAY THERE! and let her stay there. That pissed me off. Her husband was smart and got his daughter and brought her outside.. only to have his wife give him that evil glare. Yes, she was a smart one, "Lets just let the kid stay here and make an Ass out of my parenting skills.. If I have any.."

Sure this is a part of life, but so are the parents, they should do soemthing about it. I don't mind a crying child, if the parent cant get them to quiet down... well darn, as long as they are trying. I understand that youcan't always bring them outside... but when they cry and the parent just sits there with the, "Just cry then!" look... oh man, I wanna hurt somone..


Oh.. you can raise them so they aren't just brats... Its tough but it works. My half sister appeared in my life only but a few years ago.... Well her kids didn't see me as anyone, and her son always would just piss me off, and when I asked him to stop, he wouldn't, when I'd get angry, he'd just laugh. That annoyed me for a long time, but eventually I was able to get him to not be so annoying. Sure he can still be a brat... So can I The difference is that he isn't always one. When one method doesn't work, try another.

Besides if they are gonna be brats, that just means lots of timeout without any electronics in the room.. heh.

Side Rant: Why do parents send children to THEIR room. "Go to you room where your X-Box, PS2, Nintendo, computer, and toys are! And you BETTER BE IN THERE IN THREE SECONDS!!" Wow, They're in trouble if they don't go where all there toys are.. thats some rough punishment. Personally If I had a son and a daughter, I think it'd be punishment if you sent them to each other's rooms, and then took away privledges and such for anything out of order..

[seretogis]

Originally posted by butthead
This seems unreasonable.

If responsibility for your kids' actions seems that unreasonable to you, please don't have kids.

I'm almost 22, and when I went to restaurants or the grocery store with my parents I knew that I had better not run around destroying things or otherwise misbehaving or there would be consequences. Though not the best parents in some respects, they taught me to behave in public at a young age, and that people who let their kids run around screaming in a restaurant are bad parents.

Everything that your kids do until the day they turn 18 is a reflection of your abilities as a parent.

[Gortexfogg]

Originally posted by chavos
The solution might be to have some businesses, etc...be child unfriendly to attract non-parents, and others chase the little hellions and their parents.

If rambuncious kids really bother someone, they can always go to places parents wouldn't take kids or where kids weren't allowed. Bars and really nice resturaunts would be exempt from all the little ones. Smaller resturaunts and other places are less likely to have a crying/angry child (smaller max capacity=less number of alloted tantrums).

Of course, no one should give up their favorite gathering place in spite of a wild kids.

[seretogis]

Originally posted by GakFace
Side Rant: Why do parents send children to THEIR room. "Go to you room where your X-Box, PS2, Nintendo, computer, and toys are! And you BETTER BE IN THERE IN THREE SECONDS!!" Wow, They're in trouble if they don't go where all there toys are.. thats some rough punishment. Personally If I had a son and a daughter, I think it'd be punishment if you sent them to each other's rooms, and then took away privledges and such for anything out of order..

Yeah that's pretty silly. One thing that the parents of a friend of mine did was have a lockable "den"-like room which contained the TV, radio, console system, computer, etc. So all that really needed to be done for punishment or to ensure that homework gets done, is to lock one room.

[Balaniki]

I understand that kids have their moments - and I'll cut ANY parent slack as long as they are TRYING to deal with it. BUT - how many time have you been there when the kid is going "Mom Mom Mom Mom MOM! MOM! MOM!MOMOMOMOMOMOMOMOM!!!!" and the parent just talks louder over them. I want to get right in the parents face and scream "ANSWER THEM!!!!!!!!"

The problem is that most parents have no follow through. If you say the dreaded "Or Else" words to a kid you BETTER have an "Else" to back it up with! And something better happen when you get to FIVE if you say "I'm going to count to five".

When my sister went through a rough period in her life I went to live with her and take care of her 3 kids. They were totally out of control. She didn't have the mental energy to deal with them and so they got their way all the time. The first time I took them out to a restuarant (ok, McDonalds - but it still counted) and they startet o act up I told them to stop of we'd leave. When they didn't stop you know what happened? WE LEFT! I picked up their half-eaten food, dumped it in the garbage and took them home. And they got no snacks or anything until the next meal.

It didn't take them long to understand that I meant business. And then they learned that the more they behaved, the more fun places we went. Amusement parks, malls, movies, etc.

Kids aren't stupid - in fact I truely believe that most times they are smarter than their parents! They quickly learn whether a parent will or will not follow through on a threat of punishment and they act on that knowledge.

[Locke]

I work at a toy store and have many wonderful (sarcasm) stories of childern and parents. What I find most disturbing is that some parents will just drop off their kids so that they can go shopping. And they expect us to be responsible if the kid gets hurt. Hello, bad parent of the week award. Kids screaming.... I've goten pretty used to, but when that kid is screaming the second they come in and is continuing for a good half hour, in the line at the checkout, thats it. I think part of the problem is you cant whip the kid anymore without someone screaming child abuse. maybe some parents are afraid. Dont blame em, who wants their child taken away. What are they supposed to do?

[crow_daw]

I'm from the South, and I guess its just a helluva lot more common down here for kids to get whipped. And I think thats the way it should be. And yes, I got whipped too. I got whipped ONCE by my mother before I learned to not back talk her EVER, and that was when I was three years old, and I swear before God, I still remember that. But my grandmother and babysitter on the other hand, used to whip me senseless, and they believed in mental torture too, because they would make me go out to a tree and PICK MY OWN SWITCH! That's insane sounding, but thats what they did. And I turned out fine. I'm sorry, but I'm of the opinion that most of these little brats today need only one thing, and that is one vicious ass thumping.

[clavus]

Originally posted by lurkette
I find this a little condescending. Brats are brats regardless of whether you have kids or not. I'm perfectly willing to cut people some slack if their kids are just being a little rambunctious and loud, but it's not okay with me and would never be okay if the parents aren't making any effort to curb truly obnoxious behavior.

lurkette speaks TRUTH regardless of her child-bearing situation. I have kids. I totally agree with her.

[Reese]

Maybe it's time for a POV from someone with Very bratty kids in the family. I have a half-sister who is older than me, and 2 step-sisters who are 4 and 3 years old. My older sister was controllable and minded but she did get into alot of trouble when left alone. I was the perfect child My youngest sister is a little angel and doesn't do anything bad until you turn your head. The 4 year old however is the Devil. She is uncontrollable, hateful, destructive, and dangerous. I don't think it's right to blame the parents because they really do everything they can to try to keep the kid under control. You can give her a whipping every time she did something but about that would equal about 900 whippings an hours which is useless so why keep doing it. I understand the problems people have with kids, but remember the problem child is giving the parents a much harder time than they will ever give you in the 20 minutes you set beside them in Mcdonalds.

Some kids are just uncontrollable. I wonder if kids in the 1950's and earlier had ADHD... never heard of them.. but then again there wouldn't be saying like "a child should be seen, not heard" if there wasn't a problem child among them.

[yoshi]

I totally agree. I think parents today say things but then never follow through with what they say. Therefore, the children know they can get away with things or that their parents will eventually give in to them. I mean, when I was brought up, I knew not to misbehave out in public. And if I did something to get in trouble I was repremanded then without threats or physical abuse.

[warrrreagl]

For more discussion on this topic, check out an earlier thread:

http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread....&threadid=7861

[Balaniki]

Originally posted by cybermike
Some kids are just uncontrollable.

Fine. I have no problem with that - it's life.

But don't take them out in public and allow them to bother other people!

That just seems to be such a foreign concept to people.

I'm now to the point where I'll say NO if they try to seat us next to a table with kids.

Look at it this way - if you had a drunk sitting at the table next to you, being all loud and obnoxious would you just take it or complain to the management?

If the kids are obnoxious and the parents aren't even TRYING to control them - call over the management and COMPLAIN!!!

Maybe if more people complained restuarants would get the idea!

[nulltype]

cybermike: My knowledge of psychology/behaviorism is lacking, and I hope that if I become a parent that I will learn far more about those fields. Regardless, I strongly suspect that the parents <b>were</b> heavily responsible for how their kids act. Even if they appear to be trying really hard, trying really hard != results. If a child misbehaves that badly, I think it is not because the child is intrinsically bad, but because the child is not properly taught/reinforced how to behave.

Balaniki: That reminds me of an article in my microeconomics book discussing the possibility of parents with children being forced to pay more to compensate for the negative externalities produced by their children. It makes sense, since if you, who has no loud children, must pay the same amount as someone who has multiple obnoxious children, then the obnoxious children are not being taken into account. It is rather surprising that some places will let young children get in for less when they should be paying more than the average. An addition to this would be the possiblity of using the increased cost to children to subsidise cheaper costs for people who have to deal with the children (such as the people nearby).

[butthead]

If responsibility for your kids' actions seems that unreasonable to you, please don't have kids.

Living by dumbfuck philosophies like believing I can totally control a person is something I don't do.

[Phaenx]

You can totally control someone with a muzzle and chains, if all else fails.

[gov135]

I don't have kids. I wish alot of kids were better behaved.

But there is nothing you can do about - so why do I get the impression that lot of people in this thread let other people's kids disrupt their experiences? You are correct - their parents need to be shot and the kids need to control themselves. But when you let them affect your good time, you are the idiot.

[seretogis]

Originally posted by butthead
Living by dumbfuck philosophies like believing I can totally control a person is something I don't do.

If you think that raising your children with respect for others is a "dumbfuck philosophy", please don't have kids.

[sexymama]

I do have kids -- 5 of them. One was a real "brat." He was not allowed to disturb others in public! We used consequences, not punishement, to "control" his behavior. (I have never spanked!) Sorry J, but you have two choices, sit politely in the restaurant and visit or sit in the car while we eat. There were several meals he watched us eat from the car. The other 4 children and restaurant patrons appreciated the calm. It only took a couple of times of waiting in the car, for J to learn that I was serious and to "correct his behavior."

Good parenting is hard work! There is no such thing as the perfect parent, nor the perfect child. But it can be done and the only one to blame if misbehavior is allowed to continue is the parent.

[butthead]

If you think that raising your children with respect for others is a "dumbfuck philosophy", please don't have kids.

Who said anything about raising kids to have respect for others?! I would do what I could to correct disruptive behavior, of course, but I can't be in total control of my kids actions, if that were true I would have no need to correct disruptive behavior and may as well buy a robot assembly kit.

How would you totally control your kids actions?

Good parenting is hard work, but I think there are, to a certain degree, things you cannot control or anticipate at all times.

[MikeyChalupa]

We were indoor kids growing up, and my brothers and I spent lots of time in our rooms with the phone, TV, stereo, computer, Atari, and so on. My parents very quickly learned that grounding us was not an effective deterrent. Unlike my brothers though, my problems weren't disciplinary, they were school-related. Anyway, they'd remove item by item from our rooms until it was not fun in there anymore and my dad's room looked like a friggin' Radio Shack.

As far as kids in public, I've heard that in China it is legal (and encouraged) to physically discipline other people's children in public. I have yet to visit China though. Can anyone confirm this?

-Mikey

[Reese]

Balaniki, I don't take my sister ANYWHERE, and my parents have hardly no life because they do not like causing a scene in public. You cannot say that my parents are bad parents because they have raised 2 respectful children. They have working on raising two more, one of which is out of control, and the other is a perfectly normal child.

I have lost many toys, I've been grounded, I've had to stand in the corner, I've had to sit on the couch for hours with no tv or toys because I've misbebaved and I soon learned, the same tactics do not work with this child.

Nulltype - Tell me, how do think a child should be taught? My parents have tried everything and if you can magically come up with a solution they'd gladly try it, I can guarantee anything you can think of has been tried.

They go to very few places in the first place and have to leave early almost every time.