Deer hunter becomes gunman - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

raeanna74 · 11-23-2004, 05:59 AM

MSNBC

"HAYWARD, Wis. - Relatives of a man being held in the deadly shooting of six deer hunters say they are just as stunned and bewildered by the incident as authorities investigating the case.

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Thick glass prevented Chai Vang from any contact with family members during a brief visit Monday at Sawyer County Jail. They spoke via telephone, mixing English with the native language of Hmong immigrants from Laos.

“I still don’t believe it,” the suspect’s brother, Sang Vang, said. “He is one of the nicest persons. ... Maybe something provoked him or something. He is a reasonable person.”

Charges had not been filed against 36-year-old Chai Vang, of St. Paul, Minn., as of Monday night.

Vang is accused of opening fire on several hunters Sunday with a semiautomatic assault rifle, leaving six people dead and two wounded, authorities said..."

This was on our local news as well and a previous article that I read gives more details as to the incident itself. Apparently this man had trespassed on private property to hunt in a deer stand. When confronted by the property owners he opened fire on them with his SKS semi-automatic rifle. He had supposedly become lost and wandered onto nearby property. His relatives say that he's an avid hunter. His relatives are saying that this was racially provoked while the witnesses said that the confrontation was a calm one until he opened fire on the other hunters (who btw had only 1 gun among them at the moment).

My opinion of this is based on current events in our area. The Wausau area is importing Hmong immigrants to our area in hopes of improving public opinion of our area. They've already imported over 1,000 and intend to bring about that many again. I'm using conservative numbers because I can't remember the specifics. Since they've started bringing these immigrants in we've seen a number of racial gangs spring up in the Wausau area. Wausau offers classes in English and other things to help these people become more naturalized. They don't seem to have enough classes to accomodate though. Almost any store you go into in Wausau it seems you can hear people speaking in other asian languages instead of English. They just had an article about the Hmong not understanding our hunting laws in this country. I personally feel that our area is doing these people an injustice by bringing in more than they can accomodate educationally. If these people were able (through enough classes offered) and willing to learn English they would be able to read the "No Trespassing" signs and they would be able to read our laws.

I tend to feel resentful of some of the Hmong in our area because many of them use welfare and don't bother to learn our language. If our taxes are going to help them live in our country the least they can do is learn to speak our language and follow our laws. At the very least not open fire our our residents on who's property they trespassed.

joeb1 · 11-23-2004, 06:28 AM

Thanks reanna74,

That gives some further insight into what exactly happened up there. Are the immigrants coming directly from Laos? And were they already living somewhere in Wisconsin?

I can understand your having problems with dealing with the transplanting of immigrants to your area. We live in area that during the summer months. Our town is overrun with migrant workers who drift from small town to small town in search of work. We have several orchards where they do find the summer work they desire. We almost feel over run during the summer months. Kind of misplaced in our own town. Most of this is due the language barriers. But I digress...

It is sad that your town is taking on a little more than it can chew. It seems that this is the American way. You see more and more people taking advantage of the "system". Almost to the point of abusing it.

This guy could have been experiencing some of the language issues you speak of. And maybe he felt threatened because of this? Who knows?

I had heard or read that he was already out of the stand and walking away. Then turned around and started firing.

No matter what the reason. It is tragic that so many people lost their lives.

raeanna74 · 11-23-2004, 06:34 AM

They're coming directly from Laos. The city of Wausau is bringing the people in. My town is 30 min north and fortunately we're not inundated with many of the Hmong. In my town though we don't have much shopping available so hubby and I find ourselves shopping in Wausau frequently. Hubby also works in Wausau and deals with the language barrier even more than I do.

joeb1 · 11-23-2004, 06:49 AM

I still can't understand why the city would bring people directly from another country? I mean there is nothing wrong with this if done properly and there is a need. But just to bolster public opinion of an area???

There has got to be another reason...

This really is the first time I have heard of something like this. I am simply just blown away....

Are there so many jobs available for these people and the people that are native to the area that they have to bring other people from different countries? I wonder what the unemployment rate is in Wasua?

Seems wrong to me......

Janey · 11-23-2004, 07:10 AM

I just saw CSI Miami last night. In this episode, 'natural' americans had formed a vigilante militia and were stealing weapons (rocket launchers) and attacking the businesses of Cuban immigrants. It seems that they were upset that they couldn't leave the house, and not hear English spoken as the primary language. Wanted the Cuban immigrants to return to Cuba.

It is a bit ironic.

Blackthorn · 11-23-2004, 07:20 AM

This is just a nutty crazy and insanely sad story...

raeanna74 · 11-23-2004, 08:00 AM

I apologize for not including more information to begin with about the reason WHY these people are coming to our area. Perhaps this article will help you understand just a little bit more.

"Most of Marathon County’s 5,100 Hmong residents live in Wausau, the second largest concentration in Wisconsin next to Milwaukee, and another 400 Hmong refugees are expected to arrive in the coming months from a refugee camp in Thailand. Brown County has about 3,000 Hmong residents — the third largest concentration in the state — most of whom live in Green Bay, and it expects to receive about 200 to 300 more residents from the refugee camp.

The Hmong — an ethnic minority who helped the CIA in Laos during the Vietnam War — have come here as political refugees out of fear of retribution following the communist takeover in their homeland."

Also this article may clarify things. "Wisconsin has an estimated 47,000 Hmong - the third-highest population among the states. With such a large population already here, resettling refugees now should go more smoothly compared with years ago when the first influx of Hmong strained resources."

I can't seem to find the article where I first read some of the reasons for Wausau being the target for much of the immigration. It was actually in a local paper and I don't see it on their site - probably because it was about 4 or 5 months ago. What I recall from the article was that the Wausau area had been considered Unfriendly to other ethnic groups. We actually rarely see blacks in the community and prior to this immigration we saw few asians. The area was primarily populated by caucasians. There is also a lot of jobs in factories here. The city is based on it's industry using wood. There is a large paper mill, woodchip factories and between my town and the Wausau area there are 4 window manufacturers. It doesn't seem that jobs are hurting anymore than anywhere else in the country.

joeb1 · 11-23-2004, 10:23 AM

Thanks for the links... I am still reading them.

sapiens · 11-23-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

I tend to feel resentful of some of the Hmong in our area because many of them use welfare and don't bother to learn our language. If our taxes are going to help them live in our country the least they can do is learn to speak our language and follow our laws. At the very least not open fire our our residents on who's property they trespassed.

I wasn't aware that we had an official language in the United States. If someone wants to speak Hmong, German, French, Spanish, Quechua, whatever in public they should be allowed to. They should follow OUR laws and shouldn't open fire on OUR residents? Presumably the laws are theirs as well and they are residents as well. Of course, everyone should follow the law and avoid opening fire on others.

I'm not sure that I would use some wacko who killed a bunch of people as a springboard to discuss all Hmong people in the US (or in Wausau) any more than I would use Specialist Jeremy Sivits or PFC Lynndie England to represent all of our soldiers working in prisons in Iraq (or fighting in the war).

A side note: Some areas in the midwest really encourage immigrant populations to move to their communities because of population decline. I know of areas in Iowa that are doing this.

EDIT: I probably should have said "accused killer" rather than "some wacko".

raeanna74 · 11-23-2004, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I wasn't aware that we had an official language in the United States. If someone wants to speak Hmong, German, French, Spanish, Quechua, whatever in public they should be allowed to.

Ok yes they should be allowed to speak what they want. One of the reasons given for the common mistake of the Hmong trespassing or failing to follow the hunting laws is that they aren't able to read the English langues (which most of the pamphlets and laws are written in) and they use their language as an excuse. I find that irresponsible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

They should follow OUR laws and shouldn't open fire on OUR residents? Presumably the laws are theirs as well and they are residents as well.

I meant OUR NATIONS laws. It's is OUR countries laws. A number of the Hmong community have said in a number of the local news reports in our area that "America's laws" are different than the laws of their home country. I only specified "our" in contrast to their "homeland's".

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I'm not sure that I would use some wacko who killed a bunch of people as a springboard to discuss all Hmong people in the US (or in Wausau) any more than I would use Specialist Jeremy Sivits or PFC Lynndie England to represent all of our soldiers working in prisons in Iraq (or fighting in the war).

I never said anything about ALL Hmong people. I used the words "I tend to feel resentful of SOME." I askew generalizations (especially racial) so I was careful to not use collective words such as all, and never or always.

It just seems that the larger the number of this alternate culture that we get in our area the more problems we have. Wausau did not have much of a problem with gangs until the last few years. Also a number of years ago when the influx began people were reporting thier dogs missing. It came to light that the Hmong who were immigrating did not understand "respect for other's property", were stealing the dogs and eating them.

Honestly I lay much of the blame on the programs that are encouraging this immigration. The people coming to our area need to be educated to deal with a different culture than theirs. They will assimilate and succeed far better and more quickly if this was done. This would BENEFIT all those involved. I would not want them to loose their sense of culture. I simply want them to respect the culture which they are entering for refuge. Why not?

kel · 11-23-2004, 01:19 PM

This is extremely disappointing...

Janey · 11-23-2004, 01:42 PM

my experience has been that most immigrants and particularly visible minorities tend to aggregate, or to use a geographic but not politically correct term, ghettoize. This is due to the desire to associate with compatriots, common roots, language, facilities such as groceries or drop-in centres. what have you. I see this all around me here. groups of Somalians, Viets, Chinese, Italians, Greeks. All making their own little -towns.

Usually this is a big city feature because of the natural tendency to locate in an urban area due to the opportunities presented. I'm not sure what Wasau is like, but if it is small town like, then this ghettoization will stick out like a sore thumb. In a big city, a multitude of foreign languages, characteristic neighbourhoods add to the charm. In the less urban outskirts, its tantamount to shouting out: "I'm different! I don't belong!" (believe me, the number of times that I've walked into a restaurant in small town Ontario, to have everybody hush up and look at me, I know what is to be on the outside looking in. And I was born here...)

I'm sure if the Hmong had their druthers, they wouldn't have chosen Wasau in the first place, but maybe it was the location that was originally sold to them as attractive. Now, you have critical mass, and a reason for new arrivals to go there.

It is difficult too, to leave your homeland, and learn EVERYTHING at once. (re-watch Lost in Translation, that recent Bill Murray movie where he is in Japan). But when you don't fit in, and can't find a decent job, and are too cool to hang with your parents, well, youth gangs are here in Toronto too.

On a related note: My theory on bad chinese drivers? Most of them here come from Hong Kong, where they drive on the wrong side of the road. Imagine transplanting a lifetime of reflexes to our mode of driving. Never mind the language of the signs!

raeanna74 · 11-23-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

Usually this is a big city feature because of the natural tendency to locate in an urban area due to the opportunities presented. I'm not sure what Wasau is like, but if it is small town like, then this ghettoization will stick out like a sore thumb.

This is what has happened with Wausau. It's one of the larger towns in Wisconsin the only larger cities being Milwaukee, Green Bay, and Madison.

"Wausau had a population of 38,426 people. The city is located adjacent to and partially within the Town of Wausau.

The Wausau metropolitan area had a 2000 census population of 81,421 and, besides the City of Wausau, includes Schofield, Rothschild, Weston, Kronenwetter, and the town of Rib Mountain." Wikipedia

One big part of the Hmong being so predominant is that the influx of them has ballooned the population already. I used to live in Schofield and it was a small town. I walked to school 5 block away on my own when I was in kindergarten. Now I wouldn't let my 4 yr old daughter walk to the end of the block alone.

I'm estimating based on the numbers I've found that about 1/8 of the population in Wausau is Hmong. When you contrast that with MOST of the other residents being caucasion then you really notice their presence.

filtherton · 11-23-2004, 02:01 PM

I heard about this a few days ago and all i could think of was the irony. The hunters become hunted. It certainly is sad, but i know that somewhere there is a forestful of deer laughing their asses off.

DEI37 · 11-23-2004, 06:17 PM

As far as the Hmong population goes, I have worked and dealt with many on varying levels. I don't know of too many with a work ethic that resembles anything like...well, work! I remember working my ass off in a factory, being yelled at to do more, while 10-15 Hmong's sat off in a corner, and didn't do ANYTHING. They got paid more than me, too. I see them take tax dollars, and buy nice cars, trucks, and super nice stuff that the government gives them, more or less. Some can barely speak English. They come in to the dealership, looking for parts for their car, and I can barely understand them, and when I ask them to repeat themselves, they get all offended, and look at me like I'm the ding-dong. Then they'll order a $350 part for a $300 car, and then either not come get it, or when we have them pay the bill, they claim we quoted them A LOT less. That is what we deal with.

Now, to sapiens, if you didn't realize that English was the language that this country communicates in, then go to France, or something. I've had them try to speak to me in whatever language it is that they speak, and I've heard them try to communicate in other places of business in their native toungue. They get flustered when they aren't understood. They need to learn the language BEFORE they come here.

Anyways, before I get all warped out of shape, and get myself in trouble, I'm done here.

kel · 11-23-2004, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

As far as the Hmong population goes, I have worked and dealt with many on varying levels. I don't know of too many with a work ethic that resembles anything like...well, work! I remember working my ass off in a factory, being yelled at to do more, while 10-15 Hmong's sat off in a corner, and didn't do ANYTHING. They got paid more than me, too. I see them take tax dollars, and buy nice cars, trucks, and super nice stuff that the government gives them, more or less. Some can barely speak English. They come in to the dealership, looking for parts for their car, and I can barely understand them, and when I ask them to repeat themselves, they get all offended, and look at me like I'm the ding-dong. Then they'll order a $350 part for a $300 car, and then either not come get it, or when we have them pay the bill, they claim we quoted them A LOT less. That is what we deal with.

Now, to sapiens, if you didn't realize that English was the language that this country communicates in, then go to France, or something. I've had them try to speak to me in whatever language it is that they speak, and I've heard them try to communicate in other places of business in their native toungue. They get flustered when they aren't understood. They need to learn the language BEFORE they come here.

Anyways, before I get all warped out of shape, and get myself in trouble, I'm done here.

If your experiences are representative, I feel yah.
I wonder if the US economy is set up to support immigrants right now... The jobs for them just aren't there.

jorgelito · 11-24-2004, 01:18 AM

Part of the blame for Hmong immigration lies with the government. Remember, they helped us in the Vietnam War and now Uncle Sam is trying to make right. But government being government isn't doing a great job. They definitely need to help with the transition. Language, culture shock etc. I suspect there are problems with Cubans in Florida too. Remember when Castro sent all the criminals to us and we let them in cause they were Cuban?

Anyhoo, in this incident, the guy claims that he started to leave when they told him the tree he was in was private property. But they surrounded him and started shouting racial slurs etc and one of them fired at him. He says he fired back in self-defense. Also, he's been in the US for over 20 years and served in the Army Disgruntled Vet or self-defense? If this guy was white, would y'all be bothered as much?

You know, I'm disturbed by the whole thing regardless of who's right or wrong. I think it suck cause since I look Asian, some ignorant jerk is going to want to seek revenge on me for what he did. I didn't attack every white person when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma. Did we start rounding up white people after that? No, but we did Arab looking people after 9/11.

We need to look at individuals, not the group.

raeanna74 · 11-24-2004, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

If this guy was white, would y'all be bothered as much?

I guess one reason I'm looking at a larger portion of the Hmong population after hearing of this is that in the reports the Hmong that they interview and the relatives of this guy have brought up the subject of Hmongs in general not understanding the subject of Private Property and also of not understanding the laws of the land because of the language barrier. Since this guy was here for as long as he was both of THOSE issues should not be brought into the news stories at all. I guess I'm just bringing it up because they are. If they don't want to identify with this man then they shouldn't be trying to defend him based on his race or culture. What he did was wrong Hmong or white.

Also according to a news story on NBC - He had turned to walk away, removed his scope on the rifle(which tells me he had an intent to do this), then turned back to fire. He also pursued the other hunters through the woods while they ran. If it was truely in self-defense then he should not have been continuing to fire.

joeb1 · 11-24-2004, 05:44 AM

Yes-

Somehow I get the feeling that this guy had some of this planned. To what extent I cannot say. But when you remove your scope from your rifle, you normally have an intent to shoot at targets that are closer. You field of vision is also improved so that you can track moving targets. (and unfortunately shoot the un-armed in the back as they run screaming away from you, like this guy did)

Some of the reports I have read state that the shooter was fired at first. There are confilicting reports. The shooter also stated that multiple people were firing at him. Only one weapon was found with the first group. The others that arrived were shot as they were dismounting their four wheelers.

Seems like a tragic case of wrong place, wrong time.

sapiens · 11-24-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

Now, to sapiens, if you didn't realize that English was the language that this country communicates in, then go to France, or something.

Strange response. I should go to France or something? Doesn't seem to follow from my post. Your suggestion that I might want to move does relate to the topic in a circuitous way. France is much stricter about language than the US. They often outlaw the use of foreign words (like email, etc.) to "preserve" the French language.

My impression was that in the US people are allowed to speak whatever language that they want. That said, I agree that people who don't speak English shouldn't be surprised when they have difficulty communicating with others in the US.

DEI37 · 11-27-2004, 10:59 AM

I just happened to pull France out of thin air on that one...had no idea on their language laws. The problem with speaking other languages here, is in context to my first post, where they go in to a place of business, and expect the store operators to understand some goofy Asain language. That's just ridiculous. That's where that came from. I do however, hold the opinion that English should be used for just about any communications. Imagine some foreigner behind you talking to his friend about murdering somone, or you, even, in their native tongue. Wouldn't that be nice to know? If you come here, speak our language. Most other countries appreciate it, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Strange response. I should go to France or something? Doesn't seem to follow from my post. Your suggestion that I might want to move does relate to the topic in a circuitous way. France is much stricter about language than the US. They often outlaw the use of foreign words (like email, etc.) to "preserve" the French language.

My impression was that in the US people are allowed to speak whatever language that they want. That said, I agree that people who don't speak English shouldn't be surprised when they have difficulty communicating with others in the US.

Midnight_Son · 11-29-2004, 11:18 AM

Being that i live in the area where this happened, I would like to offer a couple of comments.

1. the Hmong's aren't treated very well around here because of a few simple reasons.
they don't learn english
our kids have to learn Hmong in school (don't get me started on that!)
most of the Hmong teen age boys are innercity wana-bes and have decided Northern Wisconsin is in need of street gangs

2. with that said, most of the Hmong comunity are quite folks who mostly keep to themselves.

I think that this little guy was out alone and 6 great white hunters started giving him shit....a lot of shit...the little fellow snapped and shot them all.....but, keep in mind that he shot six men who were all armed with deer rifles and not one of them returned fire.
that tells me one thing....that little Hmong dude is one hell of a marksman...... no matter how you look at. the guys gotta get a little credit for that!

raeanna74 · 11-29-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight_Son

.....but, keep in mind that he shot six men who were all armed with deer rifles and not one of them returned fire.
that tells me one thing....

One note - Only ONE hunter was armed. He was firing at and following primarily UNARMED men and women.

raeanna74 · 11-30-2004, 12:14 PM

Update - Here's more information on the incident. Apparently Chai, the shooter, showed more intent then we first heard in the papers. He actually removed his reversable hunting coat, turned it to the camo side. Then after removing his scope he pursued the other hunters. Once after shooting one hunter who remained standing he said "You're not dead yet?!" and shot the man a second time.

vox_rox · 11-30-2004, 12:45 PM

This is very disappointing, and I'm not sure what the real issue is here. Is it the shooting itself, is it the alienation of those who live in the area by the influx of immigrants, is it the xenophobic nature that both sides are displaying?

Who can answer these? No one I guess. It seems strange that immigration, done in this manner, would be suppored by any group, even those coming over. It seems like displacement would make eveyone somewhat uncomfortable, so I'm not sure what the rationale is.

I know, too many quesitons. I apologize. Good luck to those involced in this, is sounds like a pretty large can of worms, and it is a shame that loss of life had to occurr to bring this to the public eye.

Peace,

Pierre

flstf · 11-30-2004, 01:59 PM

This just seems like a case of someone who is unstable going off the deep end. Maybe the race issue has something to do with it but the Hmong certainly don't have a corner on the market.

timalkin · 11-30-2004, 04:17 PM

Hang him high.

zach0281 · 11-30-2004, 08:35 PM

I'll add my own two cents here as I live about 30 miles south of Wausau in a town called Stevens Point, where we also have a large Hmong population. Many people here do not realize that Hmongs were a stone-age culture until a very short time ago. Many of them lived in what we (Americnas) would consider abject poverty. To be transplanted to one of the most affluent countries in the world has been and continues to be a mjaor shock to these people. One things that upsets many residents is the number of people they tend to fit in a household. Hmong culture, like many other Asian cultures, reveres relatives and genealogy, so logically parents, children, aunts, uncles, and grandparents all live together in what many of them consider spacious accomodations (3-4 bedroom house) whereas locals see it as overcrowding. It also affords them the luxury of combining many small incomes from sources such as welfare. I must admit that systematic racism does exist in this area and it is hard for Hmong to get jobs. Many Hmong have already adapted to American ways of living, but others choose to stick to their culture. There is a great lack of understanding of that in this area. Only time will allow these people to integrate into our society, which they will do just like the millions of people who have come here from the rest of the world.

Just to add some facts, yes, the Hmong were given refugee status in the US thanks to their participation in the Vietnam war and our dealings in Cambodia and yes, Wisconsin was picked (along with Minnesota and Iowa) because of sparse population and low population growth.

I agree with what our country did for these people and further believe that it will eventually benefit our area.

kurtisj · 11-30-2004, 08:42 PM

i can't imagine what would have driven the person that opened fire to do so...i heard that after the shooting was done the guy who shot them was leaving the scene and saw 2 other hunters and asked them for directions somewhere all inconspicuously...

maleficent · 11-09-2005, 01:47 PM

Hmong Immigrant Receives Life in Prison

Quote:

HAYWARD, Wis. Nov 9, 2005 — The judge who sentenced a Hmong immigrant to life in prison for killing six deer hunters said the man was a "time bomb ready to go off" at the slightest provocation.

Judge Norman Yackel ordered Chai Soua Vang, 37, to serve six life prison terms, one after the other, guaranteeing he would never be freed from prison. Wisconsin does not have a death penalty.

Vang, a truck driver from St. Paul, Minn., was convicted on six counts of first-degree intentional homicide and three counts of attempted homicide in the Nov. 21 slayings.

Vang's attorney, Steve Kohn, said he would appeal but declined to elaborate.

The slayings occurred during the state's beloved deer hunting season and exposed racial tension between the predominantly white north woods residents and immigrants from the Hmong ethnic group of Southeast Asia.

Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager sought the maximum sentence for Vang, a father of seven children. She argued Vang would kill again unless he was locked up for the rest of his life, given his "explosive temperament" and lack of true remorse or regret.

Vang addressed the victims' families in court Tuesday but did not apologize.

"I understand your anger, your frustration, your grief," Vang said.

He called Tuesday the happiest day of his life, saying he would no longer have to deal with child support and mortgage payments.

"I wish I can change things, but I cannot," he said.

According to trial testimony, Vang said he got lost, went into a tree stand on the private land and was asked by another hunter, Terry Willers, to leave. Vang said he apologized and started walking away.

Other companions of Willers arrived, and there was an angry verbal confrontation and threats to report Vang to game wardens for trespassing.

Vang testified he fired in self-defense after one hunter angrily shouted profanities at him and used racial slurs before another fired at him.

Willers and the other wounded hunter, Lauren Hesebeck, said no one in their group pointed a gun at Vang before he opened fire.

Quote:

He called Tuesday the happiest day of his life, saying he would no longer have to deal with child support and mortgage payments.

Lovely thing for a man going to prison for the rest of his life for murdering 6 people to say...

Kubz18 · 11-09-2005, 02:10 PM

i work in st paul where this man was from, during the trail, due to the largest hmong population in the nation residing in st paul the race issue became a massive story,

whats sad is that he said the he killed all of them because "they deserved to die"
some other terrible facts about this case

-he claims self defense but only 1 of them had a gun
-after he emptied his entire clip into these people then RELOADED and fired again
- 3 of the victims were shot in the back
- one of the victims was found over 700 yards away from the intial scene shot in the back, vang claims that he chased the unarmed victim and shot him in the back because "he was going to tell on me"
-vang claims that they used racial slurs and that justifies the killings

despite all this there are many in the hmong community believe that he is innocent and should be released, it never ceases to amaze me the ignorance of people even in the face of overwhelming evidence

jorgelito · 11-10-2005, 12:35 AM

If they were white would you still resent them? No you wouldn't. You cannot judge the group based on the actions of one person. Base on that logic, we should resent all whites cause of what Timothy McVeigh did.

The Hmong are here cuase of what we did. It's the least we could do. It's our fault, plain and simple (blame the CIA). Plus, it takes a little time for "fresh" immigrants to settle.

I believe there WAS RACISM involved. If another white hunter "trespassed" on their "turf" this would not have happened. We as a society have much less tolerance for others.

I believe the other 2 "witnesses" are lying. But who knows? None of us do so we can't really say can we? But it is apparent, our own latent racial prejudices have crept up in this thread.

Give it some time - the community will heal, both Hmong and white.

Maybe if there was a joint Hmong-white hunting event it would help things a bit (I'm serious). One prominent Hmong has said in the 18 years he's been here, he's never had any problems. Hmongs need time to learn English and "assimilate" and the locals need to help them or be more patient. Otherwise, complain to the CIA or Feds cause they're the ones who decided where to settle them. Don't blam the Hmongs (they're not illegal by the way).

analog · 11-10-2005, 01:39 AM

A man snapped. A guy whose day of sentencing is the "Happiest day of his life because he would no longer have to deal with child support and mortgage payments" is not a sane man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I believe there WAS RACISM involved. If another white hunter "trespassed" on their "turf" this would not have happened. We as a society have much less tolerance for others.

I have no idea what you're talking about- no amount of verbal racism justifies 6 murders, and 3 attempted murders. No amount of racial slurs justifies shooting three men in the back, one after he ran over 700 yards. That's almost half a fucking mile, running away from a guy who opened fire on a group that had one gun amongst them. After the guy reversed his vest to its camo, and took off the scope. Also, see above. The man rejoiced at his sentencing because he was freed from child support and house payments. Over the murders of 6 and attempted murders of 3 people. In total cold blood.

Most importantly, this isn't one of those cases where we get to sit and give our ham-handed $0.02, the case is already decided. He'll rot in jail for being a cold-blooded murderer. All notions of monday-morning-quarterbacking the judge and jury's decisons are moot, at best.

Quote:

I believe the other 2 "witnesses" are lying. But who knows? None of us do so we can't really say can we? But it is apparent, our own latent racial prejudices have crept up in this thread.

There's nothing to support that theory, i'm curious why you would think that. This plays well into a sociological phenomena I like to call "delusions of normality". There are a lot of people who absolutely refuse to believe that people can simply snap. That a person can all at once just go totally apeshit and gun down 9 people in cold blood. Yeah, it happens. They support their refusal to believe with totally baseless theories they yank out of thin air. The bottom line is this- he went crazy. He lost control. He's a nut. Find me anything that points to the hunters being liars, and i'll go from there. As it is, the guy said they were all armed, but only one gun was found. So, gee, who is lying? OH, it's the guy who shot 9 people and killed 6 of them. Surprise, surprise.

One thing I'll say is, you're right- if this were a white guy, we wouldn't be having this discussion, we'd be talking about how hunting makes people more violent, people with guns are always quick to use them, gun control, and bullshit like that. Guarantee it.

FatFreeGoodness · 11-10-2005, 07:31 AM

"I believe there WAS RACISM involved.
…
I believe the other 2 "witnesses" are lying. But who knows? None of us do so we can't really say can we? But it is apparent, our own latent racial prejudices have crept up in this thread."

I agree that racism and prejudice are showing in this thread. For instance, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the victims were just that and that the murderer is simply a nutcase, you believe the survivors are lying and that he is innocent. You admit there is no reason for this believe other than that the victims were white and the murderer was Hmong.

Jinn · 11-10-2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

He called Tuesday the happiest day of his life, saying he would no longer have to deal with child support and mortgage payments.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=96867

There ARE people who think this way, after all.

Menoman · 11-10-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I heard about this a few days ago and all i could think of was the irony. The hunters become hunted. It certainly is sad, but i know that somewhere there is a forestful of deer laughing their asses off.

I will laugh when you are trampled by cows, or any other animal that chances are, you eat on a near daily basis.

filtherton · 11-10-2005, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman

I will laugh when you are trampled by cows, or any other animal that chances are, you eat on a near daily basis.

I would probably be laughing too. The only cows we see where i live are of the lean ground variety.

X3N0 · 11-10-2005, 11:49 AM

The immigration and failure to educate the immigrants might have been a cause for this. Although I think killing someone would be a law common to the immigrants homeland, the immigrants native law might have had some variations when it comes to people verbally assaulting one's self, heritage or "honor" in their homeland. Educating immigrants on these possible differences might have changed what had happened, but considering how he attempted and nearly succeeding in gunning down all of his victims this leads me to believe that the man did completely snap.

So, racism on the victims part also contributed to the trajedy. A little more understanding and education for cultural differences should be attempted to be taught by the government to the people of the town then. Teaching the younger children of the town how to speak their language may be an attempt already in progress by the government to break the cultural difference. This could be a very effiecient tactic too, since influencing the next generation into acceptance will only lower discrimination for further generations.

Racism aside though, being cronfronted by such a large number of men who then throw racial slurs at someone really could have caused an instable person to snap; especially if the verbal abuse was hostile and threatening. His lack of remorse and happiness for not having to pay his mortgage or child support supports that he might have been a little over the edge.

Without knowing the specifics of the man's beliefs I cannot make any other assumption of why he would react this way if he was sane. All in all it's a trajedy and luckily the other 3 men survived.

raeanna74 · 11-10-2005, 12:19 PM

I am glad to hear that he will not be roaming my streets again soon. Hubby works in the town where this man is from and deals with the public on a daily basis. Who knows but he could have been one of those customers who comes in to pick up a part and throws a fit at hubby because the price is too high for him to pay with his welfare check.

In the court records of this trial I believe it was recorded that the police had been called to his home on several instances of domestic violence. His wife behaved as their culture dictates and refused to press charges even though there was enough evidence to have put him in prison. The culture that this man and his family was from does not give women the same kind of rights that women are given here in the United States and she acted according to her culture. If the cultural programming had been different perhaps these hunters would not have been harmed because the shooter would not have been in those woods but instead in jail.

He is there now and I sure hope he never gets the chance to get parole or escape. Good riddance.

Menoman · 11-10-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I would probably be laughing too. The only cows we see where i live are of the lean ground variety.

IE. Hypocracy.

11-23-2004, 05:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Deer hunter becomes gunman MSNBC "HAYWARD, Wis. - Relatives of a man being held in the deadly shooting of six deer hunters say they are just as stunned and bewildered by the incident as authorities investigating the case. advertisement Thick glass prevented Chai Vang from any contact with family members during a brief visit Monday at Sawyer County Jail. They spoke via telephone, mixing English with the native language of Hmong immigrants from Laos. “I still don’t believe it,” the suspect’s brother, Sang Vang, said. “He is one of the nicest persons. ... Maybe something provoked him or something. He is a reasonable person.” Charges had not been filed against 36-year-old Chai Vang, of St. Paul, Minn., as of Monday night. Vang is accused of opening fire on several hunters Sunday with a semiautomatic assault rifle, leaving six people dead and two wounded, authorities said..." This was on our local news as well and a previous article that I read gives more details as to the incident itself. Apparently this man had trespassed on private property to hunt in a deer stand. When confronted by the property owners he opened fire on them with his SKS semi-automatic rifle. He had supposedly become lost and wandered onto nearby property. His relatives say that he's an avid hunter. His relatives are saying that this was racially provoked while the witnesses said that the confrontation was a calm one until he opened fire on the other hunters (who btw had only 1 gun among them at the moment). My opinion of this is based on current events in our area. The Wausau area is importing Hmong immigrants to our area in hopes of improving public opinion of our area. They've already imported over 1,000 and intend to bring about that many again. I'm using conservative numbers because I can't remember the specifics. Since they've started bringing these immigrants in we've seen a number of racial gangs spring up in the Wausau area. Wausau offers classes in English and other things to help these people become more naturalized. They don't seem to have enough classes to accomodate though. Almost any store you go into in Wausau it seems you can hear people speaking in other asian languages instead of English. They just had an article about the Hmong not understanding our hunting laws in this country. I personally feel that our area is doing these people an injustice by bringing in more than they can accomodate educationally. If these people were able (through enough classes offered) and willing to learn English they would be able to read the "No Trespassing" signs and they would be able to read our laws. I tend to feel resentful of some of the Hmong in our area because many of them use welfare and don't bother to learn our language. If our taxes are going to help them live in our country the least they can do is learn to speak our language and follow our laws. At the very least not open fire our our residents on who's property they trespassed. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-23-2004, 06:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
joeb1 Crazy Location: Over Yonder	Thanks reanna74, That gives some further insight into what exactly happened up there. Are the immigrants coming directly from Laos? And were they already living somewhere in Wisconsin? I can understand your having problems with dealing with the transplanting of immigrants to your area. We live in area that during the summer months. Our town is overrun with migrant workers who drift from small town to small town in search of work. We have several orchards where they do find the summer work they desire. We almost feel over run during the summer months. Kind of misplaced in our own town. Most of this is due the language barriers. But I digress... It is sad that your town is taking on a little more than it can chew. It seems that this is the American way. You see more and more people taking advantage of the "system". Almost to the point of abusing it. This guy could have been experiencing some of the language issues you speak of. And maybe he felt threatened because of this? Who knows? I had heard or read that he was already out of the stand and walking away. Then turned around and started firing. No matter what the reason. It is tragic that so many people lost their lives. __________________ Disco Duck...

11-23-2004, 06:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	They're coming directly from Laos. The city of Wausau is bringing the people in. My town is 30 min north and fortunately we're not inundated with many of the Hmong. In my town though we don't have much shopping available so hubby and I find ourselves shopping in Wausau frequently. Hubby also works in Wausau and deals with the language barrier even more than I do. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-23-2004, 06:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
joeb1 Crazy Location: Over Yonder	I still can't understand why the city would bring people directly from another country? I mean there is nothing wrong with this if done properly and there is a need. But just to bolster public opinion of an area??? There has got to be another reason... This really is the first time I have heard of something like this. I am simply just blown away.... Are there so many jobs available for these people and the people that are native to the area that they have to bring other people from different countries? I wonder what the unemployment rate is in Wasua? Seems wrong to me...... __________________ Disco Duck...

11-23-2004, 07:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	This is just a nutty crazy and insanely sad story... __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

11-23-2004, 07:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	I just saw CSI Miami last night. In this episode, 'natural' americans had formed a vigilante militia and were stealing weapons (rocket launchers) and attacking the businesses of Cuban immigrants. It seems that they were upset that they couldn't leave the house, and not hear English spoken as the primary language. Wanted the Cuban immigrants to return to Cuba. It is a bit ironic.

11-23-2004, 08:00 AM	#7 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I apologize for not including more information to begin with about the reason WHY these people are coming to our area. Perhaps this article will help you understand just a little bit more. "Most of Marathon County’s 5,100 Hmong residents live in Wausau, the second largest concentration in Wisconsin next to Milwaukee, and another 400 Hmong refugees are expected to arrive in the coming months from a refugee camp in Thailand. Brown County has about 3,000 Hmong residents — the third largest concentration in the state — most of whom live in Green Bay, and it expects to receive about 200 to 300 more residents from the refugee camp. The Hmong — an ethnic minority who helped the CIA in Laos during the Vietnam War — have come here as political refugees out of fear of retribution following the communist takeover in their homeland." Also this article may clarify things. "Wisconsin has an estimated 47,000 Hmong - the third-highest population among the states. With such a large population already here, resettling refugees now should go more smoothly compared with years ago when the first influx of Hmong strained resources." I can't seem to find the article where I first read some of the reasons for Wausau being the target for much of the immigration. It was actually in a local paper and I don't see it on their site - probably because it was about 4 or 5 months ago. What I recall from the article was that the Wausau area had been considered Unfriendly to other ethnic groups. We actually rarely see blacks in the community and prior to this immigration we saw few asians. The area was primarily populated by caucasians. There is also a lot of jobs in factories here. The city is based on it's industry using wood. There is a large paper mill, woodchip factories and between my town and the Wausau area there are 4 window manufacturers. It doesn't seem that jobs are hurting anymore than anywhere else in the country. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-23-2004, 10:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
joeb1 Crazy Location: Over Yonder	Thanks for the links... I am still reading them. __________________ Disco Duck...

11-23-2004, 01:19 PM	#11 (permalink)
kel WARNING: FLAMMABLE Location: Ask Acetylene	This is extremely disappointing... __________________ "It better be funny"

11-23-2004, 01:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	my experience has been that most immigrants and particularly visible minorities tend to aggregate, or to use a geographic but not politically correct term, ghettoize. This is due to the desire to associate with compatriots, common roots, language, facilities such as groceries or drop-in centres. what have you. I see this all around me here. groups of Somalians, Viets, Chinese, Italians, Greeks. All making their own little -towns. Usually this is a big city feature because of the natural tendency to locate in an urban area due to the opportunities presented. I'm not sure what Wasau is like, but if it is small town like, then this ghettoization will stick out like a sore thumb. In a big city, a multitude of foreign languages, characteristic neighbourhoods add to the charm. In the less urban outskirts, its tantamount to shouting out: "I'm different! I don't belong!" (believe me, the number of times that I've walked into a restaurant in small town Ontario, to have everybody hush up and look at me, I know what is to be on the outside looking in. And I was born here...) I'm sure if the Hmong had their druthers, they wouldn't have chosen Wasau in the first place, but maybe it was the location that was originally sold to them as attractive. Now, you have critical mass, and a reason for new arrivals to go there. It is difficult too, to leave your homeland, and learn EVERYTHING at once. (re-watch Lost in Translation, that recent Bill Murray movie where he is in Japan). But when you don't fit in, and can't find a decent job, and are too cool to hang with your parents, well, youth gangs are here in Toronto too. On a related note: My theory on bad chinese drivers? Most of them here come from Hong Kong, where they drive on the wrong side of the road. Imagine transplanting a lifetime of reflexes to our mode of driving. Never mind the language of the signs! Last edited by Janey; 11-23-2004 at 01:44 PM..

11-23-2004, 02:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I heard about this a few days ago and all i could think of was the irony. The hunters become hunted. It certainly is sad, but i know that somewhere there is a forestful of deer laughing their asses off.

11-23-2004, 06:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	As far as the Hmong population goes, I have worked and dealt with many on varying levels. I don't know of too many with a work ethic that resembles anything like...well, work! I remember working my ass off in a factory, being yelled at to do more, while 10-15 Hmong's sat off in a corner, and didn't do ANYTHING. They got paid more than me, too. I see them take tax dollars, and buy nice cars, trucks, and super nice stuff that the government gives them, more or less. Some can barely speak English. They come in to the dealership, looking for parts for their car, and I can barely understand them, and when I ask them to repeat themselves, they get all offended, and look at me like I'm the ding-dong. Then they'll order a $350 part for a $300 car, and then either not come get it, or when we have them pay the bill, they claim we quoted them A LOT less. That is what we deal with. Now, to sapiens, if you didn't realize that English was the language that this country communicates in, then go to France, or something. I've had them try to speak to me in whatever language it is that they speak, and I've heard them try to communicate in other places of business in their native toungue. They get flustered when they aren't understood. They need to learn the language BEFORE they come here. Anyways, before I get all warped out of shape, and get myself in trouble, I'm done here. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

11-24-2004, 01:18 AM	#17 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Part of the blame for Hmong immigration lies with the government. Remember, they helped us in the Vietnam War and now Uncle Sam is trying to make right. But government being government isn't doing a great job. They definitely need to help with the transition. Language, culture shock etc. I suspect there are problems with Cubans in Florida too. Remember when Castro sent all the criminals to us and we let them in cause they were Cuban? Anyhoo, in this incident, the guy claims that he started to leave when they told him the tree he was in was private property. But they surrounded him and started shouting racial slurs etc and one of them fired at him. He says he fired back in self-defense. Also, he's been in the US for over 20 years and served in the Army Disgruntled Vet or self-defense? If this guy was white, would y'all be bothered as much? You know, I'm disturbed by the whole thing regardless of who's right or wrong. I think it suck cause since I look Asian, some ignorant jerk is going to want to seek revenge on me for what he did. I didn't attack every white person when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma. Did we start rounding up white people after that? No, but we did Arab looking people after 9/11. We need to look at individuals, not the group.

11-24-2004, 05:44 AM	#19 (permalink)
joeb1 Crazy Location: Over Yonder	Yes- Somehow I get the feeling that this guy had some of this planned. To what extent I cannot say. But when you remove your scope from your rifle, you normally have an intent to shoot at targets that are closer. You field of vision is also improved so that you can track moving targets. (and unfortunately shoot the un-armed in the back as they run screaming away from you, like this guy did) Some of the reports I have read state that the shooter was fired at first. There are confilicting reports. The shooter also stated that multiple people were firing at him. Only one weapon was found with the first group. The others that arrived were shot as they were dismounting their four wheelers. Seems like a tragic case of wrong place, wrong time. __________________ Disco Duck...

11-29-2004, 11:18 AM	#22 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	Being that i live in the area where this happened, I would like to offer a couple of comments. 1. the Hmong's aren't treated very well around here because of a few simple reasons. they don't learn english our kids have to learn Hmong in school (don't get me started on that!) most of the Hmong teen age boys are innercity wana-bes and have decided Northern Wisconsin is in need of street gangs 2. with that said, most of the Hmong comunity are quite folks who mostly keep to themselves. I think that this little guy was out alone and 6 great white hunters started giving him shit....a lot of shit...the little fellow snapped and shot them all.....but, keep in mind that he shot six men who were all armed with deer rifles and not one of them returned fire. that tells me one thing....that little Hmong dude is one hell of a marksman...... no matter how you look at. the guys gotta get a little credit for that! __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

11-30-2004, 12:14 PM	#24 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Update - Here's more information on the incident. Apparently Chai, the shooter, showed more intent then we first heard in the papers. He actually removed his reversable hunting coat, turned it to the camo side. Then after removing his scope he pursued the other hunters. Once after shooting one hunter who remained standing he said "You're not dead yet?!" and shot the man a second time. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-30-2004, 12:45 PM	#25 (permalink)
vox_rox Psycho Location: Comfy Little Bungalow	This is very disappointing, and I'm not sure what the real issue is here. Is it the shooting itself, is it the alienation of those who live in the area by the influx of immigrants, is it the xenophobic nature that both sides are displaying? Who can answer these? No one I guess. It seems strange that immigration, done in this manner, would be suppored by any group, even those coming over. It seems like displacement would make eveyone somewhat uncomfortable, so I'm not sure what the rationale is. I know, too many quesitons. I apologize. Good luck to those involced in this, is sounds like a pretty large can of worms, and it is a shame that loss of life had to occurr to bring this to the public eye. Peace, Pierre

11-30-2004, 01:59 PM	#26 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	This just seems like a case of someone who is unstable going off the deep end. Maybe the race issue has something to do with it but the Hmong certainly don't have a corner on the market.

11-30-2004, 04:17 PM	#27 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	Hang him high. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix

11-30-2004, 08:35 PM	#28 (permalink)
zach0281 Upright	I'll add my own two cents here as I live about 30 miles south of Wausau in a town called Stevens Point, where we also have a large Hmong population. Many people here do not realize that Hmongs were a stone-age culture until a very short time ago. Many of them lived in what we (Americnas) would consider abject poverty. To be transplanted to one of the most affluent countries in the world has been and continues to be a mjaor shock to these people. One things that upsets many residents is the number of people they tend to fit in a household. Hmong culture, like many other Asian cultures, reveres relatives and genealogy, so logically parents, children, aunts, uncles, and grandparents all live together in what many of them consider spacious accomodations (3-4 bedroom house) whereas locals see it as overcrowding. It also affords them the luxury of combining many small incomes from sources such as welfare. I must admit that systematic racism does exist in this area and it is hard for Hmong to get jobs. Many Hmong have already adapted to American ways of living, but others choose to stick to their culture. There is a great lack of understanding of that in this area. Only time will allow these people to integrate into our society, which they will do just like the millions of people who have come here from the rest of the world. Just to add some facts, yes, the Hmong were given refugee status in the US thanks to their participation in the Vietnam war and our dealings in Cambodia and yes, Wisconsin was picked (along with Minnesota and Iowa) because of sparse population and low population growth. I agree with what our country did for these people and further believe that it will eventually benefit our area.

11-30-2004, 08:42 PM	#29 (permalink)
kurtisj Insane Location: The Wick	i can't imagine what would have driven the person that opened fire to do so...i heard that after the shooting was done the guy who shot them was leaving the scene and saw 2 other hunters and asked them for directions somewhere all inconspicuously... __________________ Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.

11-09-2005, 02:10 PM	#31 (permalink)
Kubz18 Crazy Location: Austin....Austin, Massachusetts	i work in st paul where this man was from, during the trail, due to the largest hmong population in the nation residing in st paul the race issue became a massive story, whats sad is that he said the he killed all of them because "they deserved to die" some other terrible facts about this case -he claims self defense but only 1 of them had a gun -after he emptied his entire clip into these people then RELOADED and fired again - 3 of the victims were shot in the back - one of the victims was found over 700 yards away from the intial scene shot in the back, vang claims that he chased the unarmed victim and shot him in the back because "he was going to tell on me" -vang claims that they used racial slurs and that justifies the killings despite all this there are many in the hmong community believe that he is innocent and should be released, it never ceases to amaze me the ignorance of people even in the face of overwhelming evidence __________________ "I have no idea whats going on"

11-10-2005, 12:35 AM	#32 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	If they were white would you still resent them? No you wouldn't. You cannot judge the group based on the actions of one person. Base on that logic, we should resent all whites cause of what Timothy McVeigh did. The Hmong are here cuase of what we did. It's the least we could do. It's our fault, plain and simple (blame the CIA). Plus, it takes a little time for "fresh" immigrants to settle. I believe there WAS RACISM involved. If another white hunter "trespassed" on their "turf" this would not have happened. We as a society have much less tolerance for others. I believe the other 2 "witnesses" are lying. But who knows? None of us do so we can't really say can we? But it is apparent, our own latent racial prejudices have crept up in this thread. Give it some time - the community will heal, both Hmong and white. Maybe if there was a joint Hmong-white hunting event it would help things a bit (I'm serious). One prominent Hmong has said in the 18 years he's been here, he's never had any problems. Hmongs need time to learn English and "assimilate" and the locals need to help them or be more patient. Otherwise, complain to the CIA or Feds cause they're the ones who decided where to settle them. Don't blam the Hmongs (they're not illegal by the way).

11-10-2005, 07:31 AM	#34 (permalink)
FatFreeGoodness Tilted	"I believe there WAS RACISM involved. … I believe the other 2 "witnesses" are lying. But who knows? None of us do so we can't really say can we? But it is apparent, our own latent racial prejudices have crept up in this thread." I agree that racism and prejudice are showing in this thread. For instance, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the victims were just that and that the murderer is simply a nutcase, you believe the survivors are lying and that he is innocent. You admit there is no reason for this believe other than that the victims were white and the murderer was Hmong.

11-10-2005, 11:49 AM	#38 (permalink)
X3N0 Upright Location: Kelowna BC	The immigration and failure to educate the immigrants might have been a cause for this. Although I think killing someone would be a law common to the immigrants homeland, the immigrants native law might have had some variations when it comes to people verbally assaulting one's self, heritage or "honor" in their homeland. Educating immigrants on these possible differences might have changed what had happened, but considering how he attempted and nearly succeeding in gunning down all of his victims this leads me to believe that the man did completely snap. So, racism on the victims part also contributed to the trajedy. A little more understanding and education for cultural differences should be attempted to be taught by the government to the people of the town then. Teaching the younger children of the town how to speak their language may be an attempt already in progress by the government to break the cultural difference. This could be a very effiecient tactic too, since influencing the next generation into acceptance will only lower discrimination for further generations. Racism aside though, being cronfronted by such a large number of men who then throw racial slurs at someone really could have caused an instable person to snap; especially if the verbal abuse was hostile and threatening. His lack of remorse and happiness for not having to pay his mortgage or child support supports that he might have been a little over the edge. Without knowing the specifics of the man's beliefs I cannot make any other assumption of why he would react this way if he was sane. All in all it's a trajedy and luckily the other 3 men survived. __________________ Xenogears - Stand tall and shake the heavens Socrates - The unstudied life, is not worth living

11-10-2005, 12:19 PM	#39 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I am glad to hear that he will not be roaming my streets again soon. Hubby works in the town where this man is from and deals with the public on a daily basis. Who knows but he could have been one of those customers who comes in to pick up a part and throws a fit at hubby because the price is too high for him to pay with his welfare check. In the court records of this trial I believe it was recorded that the police had been called to his home on several instances of domestic violence. His wife behaved as their culture dictates and refused to press charges even though there was enough evidence to have put him in prison. The culture that this man and his family was from does not give women the same kind of rights that women are given here in the United States and she acted according to her culture. If the cultural programming had been different perhaps these hunters would not have been harmed because the shooter would not have been in those woods but instead in jail. He is there now and I sure hope he never gets the chance to get parole or escape. Good riddance. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.