tspikes51

I was listening to a local talk radio station Sunday night, and the host was talking about how we aren't allowed to lose in today's society. What he meant by "lose" is that society tells us that we have to succeed at everything that we do, and that we can't make mistakes. Of course, this was a conservative telling the Democrats to stop their bitching, but he is right. Democrats are, in general, being sore losers. He said that when he was a kid, he lost games to his parents, he knew who the stupid kid was in class, he made mistakes, but wasn't worried about it that much. Back then, not everybody had to go to college in order for everybody to think that they were successful. It's not okay anymore to not be smart. Everybody has something unique about them that they can contribute to society, and most of them don't require a certificate from a college. As long as they have basic education, and contribute to society, then they shouldn't be criticized for not being smart enough to make it through college. We need atheletes, street sweepers, truck drivers, and what have you (not saying that people of those professions aren't smart). We need to toughen up a bit and be a bit more open.

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wilbjammin

There's a big difference between losing a game, and losing politically. Politicians make decisions that affect everything from your rights, your bank account, your interest rates, whether you or your kids go to war, the quality of education and who gets access to that education, health care, etc etc.

When adults are ambivolent about people that make decisions for them, they are committing a form of suicide in my opinion. Losing a game is one thing, losing a political battle to get someone to help you get affordable health care, to keep jobs in America (Bush admits to being pro-outsourcing), and so on is personal. Not caring, or shrugging your shoulders after you lose a battle for someone to advocate for you is a sign that you aren't invested in your life enough.

Now, I don't know what you mean by "bitching" because I don't live where you live, and I don't listen to what you do, but from your subject title and your assertion that people should stop bitching, I assume that you don't like hearing dissenting points of view. My advice to you would be to toughen up a little and be more open to other points of view. Listen to people's complaints, and try to understand why they would be so upset. I think it goes much deeper than just a feeling of losing a game, and a little empathy would be helpful in understanding why people are upset. In my opinion, it is not unjustified in many circumstances.

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Halx

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World's King

I really don't understand the conversation goin' on here.

It's never been okay to be dumb. At least be dumb by choice. And what does that have to do with being a "pussy"? I think you lumped together four different problems with today's society.

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Epiphanies

True, a college degree is not the end all be all of one's worth. I have much more respect for a kid who has the entrepreneurial guts and confidence to start his own business, than I do for a kid who basically spends his entire life "in school"...i.e. the 10 year bachelor degree followed by the masters, and then finally the doctorate before finally stepping foot in the workforce. The only thing they have are pieces of paper that say they've achieved something.

The average kid today is brainwashed into believing that a college degree is the only way to have a decent future. Don't get me wrong--education is important. Hell, I'm better off for having finished my bachelor's degree. But there's more to life than being a good academian.

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tspikes51

I don't mind Democrats being disappointed that their candidate lost, and I can understand that they're upset. I just don't like the fact that some don't realize that it's not the end of the world, and that the majority of voters did vote for Bush, so he did win fairly and justly. It's the fact that their claims are not backed well, and voted Kerry in the first place because "he isn't Bush." I didn't intend this to be a political discussion, or else I would have put it in Tilted Politics.

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World's King

Um. No one de-railed your thread. If anyone did... you did.

I don't understand what your problem is.

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tspikes51

People have been pussified by having everything handed to them as children, and then growing up to expect the same spoiling from society. Sorry for not clarifying. They expect everybody to be on the same level. It's kind of selfish, and kind of pussyish at the same time.

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Supple Cow

This reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes strips where Calvin's dad made him do things to build character. Character! Wilbjammin - from my interpretation of this thread, I think can see something positive in what he is saying as well as your point of view. I think that some point along the way, building character (that all-encompassing vague term that it is) lost value in the eyes of America (and maybe that's because "America" started to internalize what the American media was feeding it) and was replaced by more superficial things (and again I am using the term to be vague and whatever you decide to make it). In my opinion, telling people to suck it up when they don't succeed can be just as useless as telling them that they are not invested in their lives. Conversely, both of these messages have their place. Isn't the real discussion here about why or how or when the definitions of "successful" and "valuable" changed?

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tspikes51

Exactly what I was thinking. Thank you for clarifying. No, it never was okay to be dumb per se, but you didn't have to be an academian either. You just had to put in to society.

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wilbjammin

Well, you can try to weasel out of the words that you're responsible for, but I think you're espousing a philosophy that mirrors social darwinism. You talk about we "need atheletes, street sweepers, truck drivers, and what have you" in our society, and that is true to some degree, but the opportunities for people to decide for themselves what they want to become is highly influenced by policy decisions. Maybe you've never lost your job from a factory because of policies that help companies leave the US to work in China. Maybe you never had to grow up in a community where over 1/3 of the population is behind bars and primarily black. Maybe you never had to try to work around barriers to becoming the person that you wanted to be because you had adequate access to education, your parents had enough money to feed and clothe you, and you found yourself happily employed in a job that satisfies you.

I think there's a reason that you are writing about losing and having adequate holes in society to plug everyone into, and I think the connection is that you don't realize how much politics dictate opportunity. If you believe that most people only voted for Kerry because he "isn't Bush", then I think you have a bad beat on the issues that millions of people care about and would have liked to have been addressed in the next four years.

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Supple Cow

Incidentally, I just want to point out that using the word "pussy" as a key term in this discussion is going to get very distasteful very quickly. I'm not trying to pretend I've never used it that way (and yes, I'm even a woman), but I happen to think that key terms in any serious discussion need to mean something that is the same to every person who reads it. Usually, when a vague slang term that means a lot of different things is used, someone demands to know what the person who said it meant by it. That being said, I don't want to see this thread turn into a discussion about what you mean by "pussy" and 'why do we have to be so condescending/demeaning/insulting' and so on.

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jorgelito

Hmmm....I think there are too many points that could be potential threads by themselves in this thread.

1. "pussification" - I think it means that like its cousin "political correctness", people are too afraid or want to spare feelings and coddle too much. For example: lowering standards so that more people can go to college (just a vague generalization for concept mind you) or having everyone be a winner in a game. Something like that.

In your example: I agree - I voted for Kerry, we lost, lets move on. We can choose to evaluate what went wrong, try to improve and live to "fight" another day. I don't think all the whining exactly endears us to the population at large. In other words, lets be productive, contructive. We hit the bottle in defeat, woke up hungover, now it's time to go back to work, not therapy.

2. I also agree about college not being for everybody. I recall the scene from "Good Will Hunting" about work, honor etc.

3. I get the general sense, that people are sore losers these days. Look at pro sports. They are always complaing about refs or bad calls or something, anything except that they got beat by a better team.

So maybe this "culture of pussification" (sorry to keep using that word) is condtioning people to overlook personal responsibility and accountability.

Suave

People don't have to "achieve" anything to have my respect, so long as they don't purposefully infringe upon the rights of others. How should we classify "achievement" anyways?

tspikes51

My thoughts exactly. My parents are both hirers/firers at their respective workplaces (Mom is a nurse manager, Dad is a controller). My mother told me about this woman who had been fired because of extremely poor attendance in a field where workers are extremely hard to find. The woman filed a lawsuit against the hospital and got her job back. She had the same problem the second time around, and my mom only got to fire her again after going through an extremely long process. So even though this woman has a degree in nursing, she isn't worth shit as a worker, and the law is protecting her because she doesn't show up to work.

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wilbjammin

It seems to me that what you're saying is that there is a lack of external pressures on people to take responsibility and accountability for their actions from other people. I can agree there to some degree, but the media is so keen on encouraging us to rid ourselves of responsibility for anything. In fact, the media doesn't even take responsibility for itself. We're even told that we shouldn't solve our problems in direct ways, but have things solve our problems for us. Examples: You're fat, take a pill or try a miracle diet. You're depressed because you aren't living the way you'd like, so take a pill. Of course, there's always taking alcohol to solve our problems. Then there's Viagra, plastic surgery, and the general belief that any problem can fixed by buying something. And if the doesn't work, sue someone or some business.

I don't know how "pussification" fits into this, but I'll certainly say that we're far from the ubermensch that Nietzche talks about. I think the real issue is more that many lack internal motivation to take responsibility and accountability for their actions. This isn't a political issue, because all kinds of people from both sides suffer from it including the president. It is a problem, and strangely I think it is rooted in a deep psychological problem with American insecurity that is widely capitalized on with marketing and advertising. We are a long way from being responsible, and it seems that social pressure continues towards removing responsibility. I'm not sure what can be done, some sort of social intellectual revolution seems to be in order.

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ironman

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Cynthetiq

I hate thinking about this....

at a children's party in mid 90s playing musical chairs...

the kid that didn't find a seat when the music stopped was called the winner. The kid was confused because they couldn't continue to play. There were no losers.. everyone that didn't get a seat was called a winner.

I guess when you don't get accepted to that job, college, fellowship etc. you're a winner in these mother's eyes.

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K-Wise

What comedian was it that said "pussification" ?? It was Carlin right?

Asta!!

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jorgelito

Hmmm....I think "pussification" could refer to fear of failure. So when someone doesn't succeed (in accordance to a set standard), they are not prepared to handle or accept that failure due to "excessive coddling" or "political correctness", lack or personal accountability and responsibility etc.

So when at a young age, over-anxious parents and others in charge are quick to declare "everyone a winner" out of fear of hurting kid's feelings, they actually make things worse down the line.

Something like that?

I think another example would be grade inflation. Ever see the kid who cries cause they get a "B+" or *gasp* an "A-"? C'mon, y'all know someone like that. So everyone gets either a "Pass" or "Fail" or some other silly way of evaluation. Then, by the time kids graduate college, no one can write properly still or perform simple math equations (I'm exaggerating to illustrate the point).

Interesting thread you started, tspikes51 We could go so many places with this topic.

Epiphanies

Well for me, I look at achievement as doing something with your life--contributing to society.

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ARTelevision

What's to be done? Not much. Yes, something like this is happening of course. But it's not something that will be changing any time soon.

The word that's being used doesn't really help raise the discussion to a serious enough level. I would sugggest finding some better terms to use to have a serious discussion of the topic.

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Shpoop

to me, and if i understood the king right he feels the same way, that is the problem. the discontinuity of this argument, and the all-encompassing aspect you try to acheive, leave me feeling confused and unimpacted. For pussification you say people expecting everythign to be handed to them, and i agree, but your main example is the overwhelming increase in college degrees? that proves just the opposite. so what exactly are u trying to say is the problem with everyone going to college then? an over dependence on, and an over estimation of the need for education? what?!? you say taht not everyone needs a college degree, society still needs it street cleaners and garbage men. this is very true, but we still have them, only now, they have college degrees. what is effectively happening is that the bar for society is being raised, and even the lowest common denominator is going higher. This creates a more intelligent, efficient society.

now enough of me bashing your evidence, if i interpreted your original direction right, i agree with it, but id rather cite something else. the war. or more specifically, the parents mad that their kids were sent. first off, im a democrat, and do not completely agree with the war. but that doesnt matter. your kid signed up for the army or the military reserves knowing damn well his responsibilites. in this country you are, or were, expected to keep your word, and not be bitter about it. we dont need to teach our kids that they dont need to make good with their promises.

i hope that made sense....oh the irony, i skipped through so many posts this long, but expect people to read mine

Drider_it

well ive seen for a fact that most of these college grads have one thing on their mind ... and most hit college right after high school. "it looked good on paper" they might have the knowledge from studies but they lack experience. Life experience.

most of our '93 grad class was amaized how the "real world" works. Thier parents provided everything for them. Out and about they learned a lesson. The world isnt like high school to an extent. You still have your social clicks but they change to a darker back stabing parody of high school.

I do concrete for a living. I chose this do to the fact that i wanted an easier life. That I didnt want all the stress that comes with a high end college job. I've seen a man that worked at microsoft in a mexican resturant in michigan. He was just burnt out on his old job. He said he planned to never look at a computer again.

Me, I put in my work and come home to my wife and kids. Best part of my day. And with out truck drivers and the like. The american society would come to a stand still. Not everything can be delivered by train or plane heh. And yeah some choose to do this. My dad made a good living by driving a truck.

The fact that in school kids are taught that everyone can be president here in the usa. I find that an outright lie. That competition in games at school can lead to fights outside of school easy. Second place is the first loser. That is basically what is taught. I have seen parents get more upset at school sport games than the kids did. Its truly sad.

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irateplatypus

i agree, this topic has a lot of potential... definitely too big a scope though.

this is something i took from the movie "the incredibles". if everyone is special, that's just another way of saying that no one is special. i think that's true to some extent.

to draw yet another movie reference, we've ended up in a mindset very much like fightclub. everyone has been told all through their lives that they're special, that they deserve to succeed by virtue of having a pulse. when people are told they deserve something and life doesn't deliver on its promises... you end up with a lot of very disillusioned and bitter souls.

interesting topic.

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ARTelevision

Just exactly, word-for-word, the way you stated that, irateplatypus, is the problem in a nutshell:

"everyone has been told all through their lives that they're special, that they deserve to succeed by virtue of having a pulse. when people are told they deserve something and life doesn't deliver on its promises... you end up with a lot of very disillusioned and bitter souls."

This is what is what is behind the self-destructive, meaningless and pathetic "rebelliousness" of youth in our sad culture.

As you know, I consider the impact of mass media as the sole significant factor that shapes our consciousness. Therefore, I see the tactics of contemporary advertising - which promulgates and inculcates the childish idea of "specialness" and wildly unrealistic expectations as the driving force in all this.

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Cynthetiq

I didn't have the time to search before but here it is... the Original thread I posted based on an article

Pussification of the Western Male

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KungFuGuy

Have so soma. "a gram a day keeps.." aww nuts i forget the rest.

as for this thread, its too vagure for me to really figure out where i stand on it. the first thing i thought when i saw the title was, "alright, well its time to bring back the gladitorial combat again I see" because of how society used to tend to have a motherly (pussy) instinct to shield people from violence and stuff (censorship like "r" ratings at the movies). But society has gotten more violent and the media is getting away with showing more and more graphic images in the media these days. So it wouldn't seem that society has been pussified in that way.

BUt the thread obviously didn't even go in that direction. nuts.

the thing with the nurse suing to get her job back? It sounds like one individual taking advantage of laws meant to protect employees from abusive employers. A pretty singular event that recurs all the time because people are lazy, and will often work very hard to protect the right to work as lazily as possible. Off course thats not really a "right" as it is a "reality of human nature"

i thinky society has been pussified by how most people just accept the way things are these days and have almost zero participation in their government. Instead most people are only concerned with their own individual problems and not the greater problems of our world. a, "i'm only one person, what could I possibly do" mentality.

i'll stop rambling now because i still really have no idea where this thread was going.

Boo

I believe that everyone has their place in society. Every person has the highest point that they will attain. Basic intelligence, internal drive, peer pressure, and other factors effect this.

I also believe that if a person truely has the capabilities and wants to make it to a certain level, that the best place to do it is in the USA.

Not everyone can be the "big fish" in the pond.

What is your level if you allow government to be your excuse for not making your goal?

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joeshoe

Increasing population means increasing competition, and that's what makes it hard to to make mistakes nowadays. There are more and more exceptional people (because there are more and more people as a whole) but resources remain limited. So society gets a bit skewed.

Borgs

Grade inflation started because teachers didn't want thier students to go to Vietnam, which I suppose was noble, but today grade inflation occurs because teachers can get evaluated. Decades ago, teachers could not get evaulated, but because thier jobs today lie somewhat on how thier students evaulate them at the end of the year, we see grade inflation occuring. This also greatly ties in with what someone earlier was saying about a nurse that was not prepared to enter the workforce. Our education system is simply too easy to get through today, especially our high schools. Having just finished high school last year, I can honestly say that I did little to no schoolwork every night and got good grades, getting me into a good college. These good grades didn't come because I am smart (though it helped), they came becaues the classes were rediculously easy. I think the problem is that because there is no competition for teaching jobs, our teachers simply aren't very good. This isn't to say that all teachers are bad - I've had many good teachers-, but many are just downright awful. I think that bush needs to take a step back from his underfunded No Child Left Behind act and look at teachers in our education system.

The_Jazz

Swap "Republican" and "conservative" for "Democrat" and "liberal", respectively, in this thread and see how well it illustrates where we are today.

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Jinn

I'm glad someone in 2004 objected to the only cogent thing in this thread, the same issue that I had; yay, Supple Cow..

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