analog

Link... http://www.wesh.com/news/3628541/detail.html

That's my local news provider. I saw this on my TV today. This could have happened to anyone. In fact, it happened to six people. The highlighting in the quoted material is my own.

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Baseball Bats Used In Deltona Slayings
Police Make 4 Arrests In Brutal Murders

POSTED: 7:10 pm EDT August 7, 2004
UPDATED: 7:21 pm EDT August 8, 2004
DELTONA, Fla. -- Four killers used aluminum baseball bats to brutally murder six people inside a Deltona home early Friday morning, Volusia County Sheriff Ben Johnson announced at a Sunday news conference.

Four suspects in the murders were arrested and charged with the slayings, and Johnson said he believed there would be no further arrests, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.

The suspects in the case were identified as Troy Victorino (pictured at left), 27, of Deltona; Robert Cannon, 18, of Orange City; Jerone Hunter, 18, of Deltona; and Michael Salas, 18, of Deltona.

Two of those arrested had been identified by the sheriff's office as "persons of interest" in the investigation and questioned about the killings Saturday. Although they were not considered suspects in the killings at the time, the men knew at least some of the six victims.

The other two suspects were forcibly arrested overnight. Three of the arrested individuals confessed to the killings. Victorino was identified as the ringleader of the group, officials said.

At the news conference, Johnson said the suspects forcibly entered the home and the victims never had a chance to defend themselves against the armed intruders. The motive for the murders was apparently a dispute over some clothing and an X-Box video game player.

Johnson said his investigators have been shaken by the killings.

"It can happen anywhere," he told reporters Saturday. "Today, I'm sorry to say, it's happened in our community. We have individuals in our community who will never get over this."

The victims -- four men and two women, along with a pet dog -- were found early Friday morning brutally slain inside a home at 3106 Telford Lane. Police have identified five of the victims, and they said a sixth victim was beaten so badly a dental reconstruction will be needed to identify her.

Police said Victorino has previous convictions, including arson and aggravated battery, and he served time in prison from 1993 to 1993 and again from 1997 to 2003.


Multiple Deaths Reported In Deltona Home
The Volusia County Medical Examiner's Office finished removing the bodies from the residence Friday night and performed autopsies but the results were not immediately released.

Investigators have now positively identified five of the victims, including 19-year-old Michelle Nathan and 18-year-old Jonathan Gleason, both of Deltona. The other three are Roberto Gonzalez, 28, of Beacon, N.Y.; Francisco Roman, 30, of Lowell, Mass.; and Anthony Vega, 34, of Deltona.

Johnson said his department has provided chaplains and victims' advocates to help tend to the emotional needs of the victims' families.

"We'll do anything we can to help them," said Johnson. "They're victims. We understand that, and we feel for them."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me again. Actually, apparently according to what I was hearing from several news sources was that they were ALL beaten so horribly that they had to use dental impressions or finger prints to attain positive ID.

Fucking baseball bats, people. Baseball bats.

This was not over drugs, these were not rival gangs- these were regular kids, some fresh out of high school. I used to live right near Deltona. I knew some people who went to the high school they went to. What the fuck was the point of this? Some videogames?

And people wonder why I laugh at anti-gun people. They have no fucking clue how dangerous the human mind is. I have a news flash for some of them- people kill. People always have killed, and people always WILL kill. It's not any easier with a gun than it is a bat or your bare hands, when someone really wants to kill you.

Reply to anything i've commented on, let's see where this thread goes.

SpikeQX99

The first thing that went through my mind when I saw it on the news the other day was drug-related.

But over clothes and an XBOX??? Good lord, what's next? And on top of it, they beat the DOG too?

Fuck, we're in bad times man. Pretty damn sad times. Sympathy to the families of the deceased.

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panbert

From what I read in the news, the murderers were squatters that were living in the house and were subsequenctly kicked out.

Anyway, I am expecting any of these sick mofos to blame their violent behaviour on the XBox. "The video games made me do it."

Extract from http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...5E1702,00.html

hilbert25

That was the scariest thing I've read in months.

What the Hell is wrong with people?

Xell101

Interchangable with golf clubs, table legs, trash cans, small filing cabinents, canes, and all manner of stuff that when held right is a weapon. When dealing with stories like this I find it peculiar that some people have an, "Oh my, baseball bats?" as if wondering whether these were combination gunbats, how...4 people and murder...6 people...mere bats...wah!? Oh yeah, they're bats! It bugs me how so many people seem to subconciously develope stigmas around weapons that are scary looking or provide no feasible means of defense that ultimately becomes a standard for lethalality of weapons.

I call foul on the education system for poorly shaping kids minds with agendaized bullshit and all manner of crummy stuff.

Some people even go so far as to act as though the gun, just sitting there in a closet, just pieces of metal, wood, and rubber, is some kind of manifestation of death, some inert engine of destruction, gun...scary...ahhhh! Hey look, a metal bat, mmm, sports! Mental associations aren't good for making decisions.

JumpinJesus

Not to jack the thread here, but...would you clarify what you mean by this, please?

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Cynthetiq

people in NYC have been killed for:

$0.25
nike shoes
leather jacket
$20 gold chain
just because

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kutulu

That's why almost nothing shocks me these days.

As badly as those people were beaten, the murderers must have been covered in blood. Beating people to death like that seems much more sick than doing it with a gun. Maybe because it's so up close messy.

It wouldn't take that many hits to kill someone with a metal bat. I wonder how many times you have to hit someone for them to be so damaged that you'd need to use fingerprints or dental records to ID.

Journeyman

Thinking about waking up to a louisville slugger, my last moments in life being *wham wham wham* to my face, I'd rather be shot. I'd so much rather be shot than that.

todd

I hate brutal shit like that. I mean shooting somebody in the face is one thing - I think anybody could do that if they were upset enough. But to brutally beat six people takes one REAL fucked up person. I can't even fucking imagine.

DelayedReaction

Just goes to show you that as long as there are people, there will be evil in this world.

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analog

Even with full force, you'd likely have to hit the human skull several times to get it to really split apart.

The thing that separated the sixth victim, the girl whose family owned the place, was that her face (and entire head, presumably) was destroyed. They had to reassemble her jaw and upper palate back together from pieces just to be able to create a dental impression. That's what it means when they say "reconstruction".

How many hits from a metal bat would it take to fracture the jaw and destroy a mouth? Maybe 2, but likely many more...

No doubt.

Munku

Man this is pretty widespread I suppose, I live about an hour from Deltona.. Freaky shit over something as dumb as a stolen X-Box..

Strange Famous

What can I say that is not already said by most people on the plannet? It is understood that if someone wants to kill, they can do so always, with their bare hands, with a knife, with a bat, with a gun. It is understood, by me anyway and I would imagine most people, that a gun is a tool designed spefically to kill a target - human or animal - that the wide distribution of guns in society will lead to more murders.

So, this killing with bats would happen or not if guns are banned... how many innocent by-standers ever have you heard to be killed with an off target swing of a bat? How many drunken or drug induced fist fights result in death compared to how many gunfights would? To ban guns will of course not stop people being murdered, it would just reduce the number of cases were the intention to kill only lasts for a second. I think also, anyone can understand that it requires a different pyschology to from distance pull a trigger, than to up close smash with a bat. If it is laughable to some people, I dont know what to say about that,

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whocarz

I say they take these piles of human shit around back and put a bullet in the back of each of their heads. But instead, they MIGHT get the death penalty, and will then live for years and years, filing appeals, and soaking up tax dollars. It really makes me sick. I really do wish that after someone was given the death sentence, that they would just be killed them, not allowed to live for so many years after the fact. It would be quick, efficient, cheap and humane, atleast as humane as these animals deserve. I'm just thankful I live in a nice, quiet neighborhood, and if you want to get to me, you'd have to make a lot of noise. By that time I would be awake and have a rifle in my hands.

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Strange Famous

Personally I think a far greater confidence in the accuracy and fairness of the justice system would be required before it could be considered to have an "instant" death penalty by shooting.

Anyway, the constitution of the EU strictly forbids the death penalty so for me it isnt so important, although sometimes the very worst criminals will die in prison of course

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sashime76

The ringleader is someone 27 yr old who stands 6'5"! We need to put people like that to work. I doubt he has held any job in life. Since they are all convicted with 1st degree murder, let's hope they get put away for good or send them to the chair and fry them. Wasted and useless.

analog

If i didn't have a gun, and wanted to kill you, there are many, many other ways to acomplish that goal.

And speaking of your innocent bystanders, how many innocent people are killed by drunk drivers each year? I suppose in order to fix every problem, you recommend we simply eliminate the source. Sorry folks, no more cars or booze- Strange Famous says innocent people could die. That's a very thin, very useless, very cop-out solution to a problem.

Bill O'Rights

I don't see that anyone is laughing. I suppose that some could laugh at it as a means of coping with it. On the other hand, if they truly find it humorous, then that indicates, to me, a serious defect in the character of that person, and needs to be addressed.

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DelayedReaction

How many innocent bystanders have been hurt or killed by a round that was fired from someone who was legally carrying? Most of the ones I know of were a result of criminal activity, with a few examples of people being accidentally shot by police.

How many innocent victims could have been saved had they been armed and trained to defend themselves? It's possible that the victims here could have. We don't know enough information to be sure, but it's possible.

I don't think anyone here would consider legalizaing use of a firearm while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and that's not what a lot of people want. We just want to be able to defend ourselves, and not have to worry about being legally harassed for doing so.

What happened to these people is a tragedy, and I hope the authorities take the time to use this information to improve their methods to prevent it from happening again.

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ARTelevision

I echo the comments of others.
I duly noted this story when it was reported.
Another day on planet Earth.

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onetime2

Perhaps we need background checks for baseball bats.

Anyway, these are truly horrible people. They should not have the opportunity to hurt anyone else again. (Yes that means kill them). Locking them in prison gives them plenty of opportunity to kill other inmates and guards. With this as a record of what's acceptable to them, does anyone doubt that they could/would kill again?

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Bentley Little

In this case, I say cruel and unusual punishment be, well, forgotten.

First we start off my cutting off their fingers, one by one, so they can never again hold a baseball bat.

Then we let every member of the victim's families take a spiked baseball bat to each of those fuckers' shins.

Next, we put them in a cage, tied up, with a really really pissed off and hungry dobberman.

Then we cut off their fucking balls and make them eat them.

Then they can die. Fucking slimebags.

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Strange Famous

What is it, 10,000 gun deaths in the USA a year? What more is there to say?

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

matteo101

Strange Famous I agree with you one hundred percent. Any american who tries to justify gun deaths in any way, or try to say that guns being legal has nothing to do high murder rates, and deaths of innocent lives are lieing to themselfs. WAKE UP. There is a reason the united states has thousands..not hundreds but thousands more gun deaths then every other country in the world. And if you need me to tell you why that is, then guns being legal is not your countries only problem.

KellyC

These people are seriously fucked up. How can any one have that screwed up of a mentality that they could kill someone in such a brutal manner that dental record is need to ID the victims? These type of people don't deserve to live...

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Cervantes

Hear hear..
This is nothing compared to whats going on in the rest of the world. The only reason it is shocking is that it is so much closer to home.

Sick? Yes.
Fucked up? Definently.
Unusual? Sorry, Nope.

Concerning analog's grotesque estimate on how many blows it takes to kill someone.
2?? Man you gotta suffer from MS if it takes that many blows to kill someone. One, not even well aimed, blow to the head is more than enough to kill a person if you got a aluminum baseballbat, heck the martial arts practitioners who can crack one brick with a blow can easily muster enogh impact force to crack open a human skull with their bare hands.
I don't mean this as an insult or anything but the human body is very much more fragile than we would like to think..

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docbungle

I don't understand or agree with all the "Just another day on planet earth" statements. As if it's just more of the same, so oh well. No big deal.

I think that if this happened to one of us or our families that it would, indeed, be a big fucking deal. If we have allowed ourselves to become that jaded, where things like this are just an acceptable part of existence, then I think we've taken a few wrong turns along the way to getting where we are now.

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hilbert25

On the topic of punishments, I'm totally against the death penalty, even for these... um... people I guess would be the term.

But I think since they seem to be so happy swinging things, than we have a place for them in a fucking coal mine where they can spend the rest of their miserable existence in a dark, damp, hell. They can realize that they're lives are worth the $5 of coal or so a day that they contribute to society.

Strange Famous

I think the point of that comment was that this sort of thing is happening - for example - in Sudan all the time... and we shouldnt view things as more tragic or terrible just because they happen culturally or geographally closer to us.

We know that humanity is capable of the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking... in terms of the depravity and brutality the human condition is capable of committing or ignoring, there are few surprises left for us.

Certainly it should be considered important, and horrible, but it cannot be conisdered abnormal as such, and certainly not "Inhuman"

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

whocarz

I love how people will use any excuse to start railing against guns. This story has not a thing to do with guns. It has to do with four sick animals killing six people over a fucking electronic device and clothes. I'd ask if you want to bitch about guns and how harmful they are to society, then start a new thread.

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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Rdr4evr

Their punishment should be to be beaten with bats till death as well, only much more slowly. I say torture them a bit first before beating them, maybe cutting their bodies all over and pouring lemon juice on it.

May death come their way in the most grusome and painful way imaginable. Animals.

Carno

Strange Famous - I would say that most gun deaths are because of poor upbringing. Most murders are caused by people who don't even have permits for their guns. All these thugs, gangbangers have their own 9mm's, and you know that none of them are registered. Banning guns isn't going to do anything, seeing as how it's illegal to have a gun unless it registered ,yet every wanna be thug has one. Almost all gun deaths are caused by unregistered owners.

Also, how many people die a year due to car wrecks? There's over 400,000 fatalities per year due to auto wrecks. Should we ban cars?

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skaterpunk

One of my friends is pretty torn up over it. He knew 2 of the people that were able to be ID'ed and he knew one of the killers.
Really really messed up event. One of the biggest crimes in a while.

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whocarz

Carn, you have a slight misunderstanding of gun ownership. You do not need to "register" to own a gun. If you buy a firearm from a licensed dealer, then they run a background check on you, which takes a few minutes. If you aren't a violent offender or on the lam, etc. you then walk out the door with your gun, or wait a few days the Brady Bill applies in your area. However, if I own a gun, and you want to buy it, you give me the cash and I give you the gun. As long as I legally owned it, and agreed to the sale, it then becomes yours legally. There is no certificate that says "I own this firearm". This is the reason why cops will find a murder weapon, and track it by the serial number back to some guy that owned it ten years ago who lives across the country. The gun changed hands numerous times, yet the only time the authorities knew about it was when it was bought from a licensed dealer. The permit you are thinking about is likely the concealed carry permit, which simply states that the government trusts this individual to carry a handgun hidden on his person. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, hell I could be wrong on a number of things, considering the obtuseness of gun laws, but that is my understanding of it.

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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Carno

Oh, my bad.

Well in that case I think everyone should have a permit to own a weapon, not just a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I think guns sales should definitely be monitored by the government, the state, if not the federal.

EDIT: either way, most gun murders are committed by less-than-model citizens (if the murderers are even US citizens).

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Xell101

Just an nifty statistic I remember, but out of the 180,000 gun deaths from 1993 to 1997, 92,000-ish were due to suicide, whereas between 77,000-80,000 were due to assault/homocide.

Bentley Little

Caution, this thread has been jacked...

whocarz, THANK YOU!

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onetime2

Not really since the anti-gun stuff was brought up by the thread starter and he asked people to comment on anything he posted.

Seems on topic to me.

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Strange Famous

the question of guns was raised by the person who created the thread, thefore I dont agree that discussing gun control can be veering away from the initial intention of the thread.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas