President Ronald Reagan dead at 93 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Arroe · 06-05-2004, 12:48 PM

Breaking news, story in a minute

Zeld2.0 · 06-05-2004, 12:57 PM

1911-2004... a long long life

Arroe · 06-05-2004, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Ronald Wilson Reagan (search), the 40th president of the United States, died today at his home in California. He was 93 years old and had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease.

Reagan, known as "The Great Communicator," was elected to office in a landslide victory over incumbent Democrat Jimmy Carter in 1980 and is credited with revitalizing the country's stagnant economy and forcing the end of the Cold War (search) during his two terms in office from 1981 to 1989.

His charismatic personality and staunch conservatism led the nation in a Republican resurgence that kept the GOP in the White House for 12 years.

Reagan remained largely out of public view since announcing he had Alzheimer's disease (search) in November 1994. He came to symbolize Alzheimer's, which has no cure, during the last decade of his life. Reagan turned the disclosure of his disease as an opportunity to make a final address to the nation, expressing in an open letter to the American people the same patriotic fervor that had catapulted him into the presidency.

"When the Lord calls me home, whenever that may be, I will leave with the greatest love for this country of ours and eternal optimism for its future," Reagan wrote at the time. "I know that for America there will always be a bright dawn ahead."

The Reagan Revolution

Ascending to the presidency on a pledge to restore "the great, confident roar of American progress and growth and optimism," Reagan -- a former actor and two-term California governor -- remade the Republican Party in his own image of fiscal and social conservatism. Reagan brought a grandfatherly warmth to Republican issues and values that attracted supporters across a broad political spectrum.

He successfully implemented most of his campaign promises: reducing government bureaucracy and regulation, cutting taxes in favor of "trickle-down, or supply-side economics -- which became known as Reaganomics (search) -- and building a strong defense while fighting the spread of communism. These moves won him wide appeal and an even wider margin of victory in 1984, when he won the electoral votes of 49 states.

The role of president would prove to be more dramatic than any screen role Reagan had assumed in his pre-politics career in Hollywood. Just 69 days into his first term, Reagan was shot in Washington by John Hinckley, Jr. (search), but his quick and full recovery from the assassination attempt elevated him to new levels of national popularity.

His health was a recurring theme of his presidency as Reagan underwent major surgeries in 1981, 1985 and 1987.

Reagan was hawkish in foreign policy, staunchly committed to thwarting the spread of communism. His administration gave strong financial and military support to the Contra Rebels who were fighting Nicaragua's communist government and supported the government of El Salvador's fight against communist guerillas and rebels resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He dispatched U.S. troops to the island of Grenada when it was perceived as succumbing to Cuba in 1983.

Reagan's war on communism led to an escalation of Cold War rhetoric and defense spending that mushroomed the national debt and brought harsh criticism upon his administration. But the efforts eventually resulted in a series of high-level summit meetings with Soviet Prime Minister Mikhail Gorbachev, arms reduction pacts with the Soviets and eventually the break-up of the Soviet Union. That success was dramatically symbolized by the tearing down of the Berlin Wall.

His fight against communism also led to the darkest moment of his presidency, when he confessed in November 1986 that the United States had secretly sold arms to Iran as part of an arms-for-hostages deal, and then used the proceeds from the sale to fund aid to the Contra rebels. The scandal resulted in the indictment of high-level government officials.

Reagan waged war not only on communism, but on terrorism, most visibly in 1986 when he sent jets to bomb Libya in retaliation for the death of Americans in a Berlin dance club.

Star Power

Born Feb. 6, 1911, in Tampico, Ill., Reagan graduated from Eureka College in 1932 and worked as a radio sportscaster in the Midwest before being discovered by a Hollywood agent and being signed by Warner Bros. He made his acting debut in "Love Is in the Air" in 1937, made Air Force training films during World War II, and went on to make 52 movies. Reagan also served as a spokesman for the General Electric Company, hosted and acted on the General Electric Theater television series, and was also host of the television series, "Death Valley Days."

Reagan and his first wife, actress Jane Wyman, had two children, Maureen and Michael, before divorcing in 1948. He married actress Nancy Davis in 1952 and had two more children, Patricia and Ronald Prescott, who goes by Ron. Maureen Reagan died of cancer in 2001.

Reagan moved from acting into politics as a five-time president of the Screen Actors Guild. Originally a Democrat, Reagan's ideology shifted to the right as he sided with the government attack on the influence of communism in the entertainment world.

But it was a well-received televised speech on behalf of Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater in 1964 that catapulted Reagan's political career from the sound stage to the world stage. Reagan was elected California governor in 1966 and again in 1970. He made two failed attempts at the White House in 1968 and 1976 before his 1980 victory.

Known for his personal charm and talent -- and for making masterful speeches to win support for his policies -- many of the foreign leaders with whom he met were said to have been more impressed with his star quality than his intellect.

"You could see it in the faces of the foreign leaders -- Mitterand, Thatcher, even Gorbachev," a U.S. official who accompanied Reagan on many trips abroad was quoted as saying by Lou Cannon in his biography, "President Reagan: The Role of a Lifetime."

"They didn't pay much attention to what he was saying. Either they had heard it before, or they realized it was just talking points. But Reagan the man, the politician, fascinated them. It was almost as if they were saying, what does this man have that works so well for him? It was like they wanted to bottle it and take it home and use it themselves."

The question of whether the commander in chief had a harder-edged side behind closed doors was the subject of some speculation and even humor. In a "Saturday Night Live" skit in the late 1980s, the late comic Phil Hartman portrayed a Reagan who was gentle and grandfatherly to Oval Office visitors but, behind closed doors, transformed into a sharp-minded scowling dictator who barked orders to his advisers.

While he wasn't always cooperative with reporters, avoiding unwanted questions by feigning deafness as he approached a waiting helicopter, he maintained a genial relationship with the White House press corps, whose members nicknamed him the Gipper in reference to the character he portrayed in the film, "Knute Rockne, All American."

Reagan's approval rating remained high through his eight years in office, and Democrats struggled for years against the image of old-fashioned values, patriotism and hard work that Reagan fashioned for himself and his party.

As a tribute to Reagan's legacy, Congress and President Bill Clinton officially changed the name of Washington National Airport to Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in February 1998. And in 2003, former First Lady Nancy Reagan was on hand to christen the USS Ronald Reagan, the Navy's newest nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

But perhaps the image of Reagan that will be remembered most was his ability to unite the nation under the strength of his convictions, such as when he spoke to all Americans, and
specifically schoolchildren, in the wake of the 1986 explosion of the space shuttle Challenger:

"It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons," he said. "The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted; it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future, and we'll continue to follow them."

Reagan is survived by his wife and three children.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121883,00.html

maleficent · 06-05-2004, 01:03 PM

Rest in Peace, Ronnie, thanks for all the contributions you made to make the world a better place.

I still remember so vividly the day that he was shot...

KellyC · 06-05-2004, 01:07 PM

Its showing on the news right now...hope he went peacefully...

Halx · 06-05-2004, 01:09 PM

They totally hijacked the baseball game to inform me of this - great. However, 15 minutes later, they were still going on and on about it. Geez! Ok, the guy died. I can hear about it later. Now get me back to my LIVE baseball game.

Aletheia · 06-05-2004, 01:15 PM

RIP Ronney.

06-05-2004, 01:21 PM

wow- I just saw a headline on MSN just this morning saying that his health is declining, but i didn't know it so that serious.

RIP

crewsor · 06-05-2004, 01:25 PM

May he rest in peace. A great man and President.

Having fun with Nancy. Say, whats that in your hand Nancy.

Mondak · 06-05-2004, 02:22 PM

Patriot, Capitalist, Hero and Friend to people all over the world who benefited from the vision and conviction that saw us through a time that could have spelled the end of us all.

Thanks Ronnie. I will never forget you.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 02:30 PM

Nobody seems to mention his role in funding the Nicaragua Contras, which resulted in thousands of civilian deaths.

But whatever.

World's King · 06-05-2004, 02:34 PM

As Nancy would say... "Just Say No"

LewisCouch · 06-05-2004, 02:52 PM

A real man who stood by his convictions.

LewisCouch · 06-05-2004, 03:10 PM

"Whatever else history may say about me when I'm gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears, to your confidence rather than your doubts. My dream is that you will travel the road ahead with liberty's lamp guiding your steps and opportunity's arm steadying your way."

-Ronald Reagan

portwineboy · 06-05-2004, 03:31 PM

He was a great American.

SCrubjay · 06-05-2004, 03:39 PM

RIP Mr. President.

The first president I voted for ........ 24 years later, still happy with that vote ....... wish I had that choice today.

Halx --- how close are you to the Reagan library?

Mondak · 06-05-2004, 03:39 PM

User Name

While I view your comment in bad taste in light of the thread it is in, I find it worse that you would take a quick barb at something that is questionable whether you understand it. Shoot off your mouth and run. Nice trolling in a thread about Reagan dying today.

Supporting people who were fighting for their freedom from the communist backed Sandinistas is pretty evil huh? Well even if it were and truely "resulted in thousands of civilian deaths" (which is questionable since these people would still be fighting for their freedom today without Reagans actions - the Sandinistas fell shortly after Moscow cut off funding.) the precident it set helped end communist rule in Russia. Couple figures for ya - pay attension to the first one:

From Reagan's War by Peter Schweizer

Quote:

...costs that Reagan's policies placed on a struggling Soviet economy using Moscow's numbers:

- The cost of counterinsurgency operations against Reagan-backed guerrillas: $8 Billion a year
- The second strand of the European natural gas pipeline Reagan stopped: lost revenue $7-8 Billion / year
- Extra Arms shipped to Cuba to sooth anxieties over Grenada: $3 Billion
- Military spending increases announced to match Reagan: $15-20 Billion / year
- Lost revenue due to restrictions on technology imports $1-2 Billion per year
- Lost revenue from a sudden drop in oil prices $5-6 Billion per year
- Extra aid delivered to Poland after Reagan's sanctions $1 Billion

This amounts to a heafty pricetag for a superpower that had total hard currency earnings of approximately $32 Billion at that time.

Have some respect for a man that made the world safe for you to troll threads in your spare time.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mondak
User Name

While I view your comment in bad taste in light of the thread it is in, I find it worse that you would take a quick barb at something that is questionable whether you understand it. Shoot off your mouth and run. Nice trolling in a thread about Reagan dying today.

Supporting people who were fighting for their freedom from the communist backed Sandinistas is pretty evil huh? Well even if it were and truely "resulted in thousands of civilian deaths" (which is questionable since these people would still be fighting for their freedom today without Reagans actions - the Sandinistas fell shortly after Moscow cut off funding.) the precident it set helped end communist rule in Russia. Couple figures for ya - pay attension to the first one:

From Reagan's War by Peter Schweizer

Have some respect for a man that made the world safe for you to troll threads in your spare time.

I am from the former Soviet Union, and while I do not remember what life was like there, my parents do, and they say it was best in the early 1980s. Thank you so much, President Reagan, for fucking up the economy of my homeland. Also, seeing as Reagan gets so much credit for breaking up the USSR, perhaps he should be thanked along with Gorbachev for DECREASING THE STANDARD OF LIVING IN HALF. My parents would have never wanted to leave (though they definitely could, to Israel or the US) if the Soviet Union didn't break up and the economy wasn't in ruins.

While trading arms for hostages is pretty reasonable and humane to me, using the profits from those sales to fund armed rebel groups is not. Reagan wanted to eliminate the Sadinistas because any left-wing government, in his eyes, is evil, causing thousands of deaths.

Thank you President Reagan. I'll join you in hell.

DEI37 · 06-05-2004, 03:59 PM

So, it was best in the early '80's when who, exactly was President? Oh yeah, Ronald Reagan. He's the best president we've had in a really, really, long time, and probably for a long time to come.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DEI37
So, it was best in the early '80's when who, exactly was President? Oh yeah, Ronald Reagan. He's the best president we've had in a really, really, long time, and probably for a long time to come.

I was talking about the Soviet Union.

Journeyman · 06-05-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LewisCouch
"Whatever else history may say about me when I'm gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears, to your confidence rather than your doubts. My dream is that you will travel the road ahead with liberty's lamp guiding your steps and opportunity's arm steadying your way."

-Ronald Reagan

Good thing Bush is carrying on in this fashion.

Superbelt · 06-05-2004, 04:16 PM

Rest in Peace Ronald. Though your policies and goals were opposite of mine (I will refrain from bringing any of it up out of respect) , you did injected necessary joviality back into America. That is worth something.

Greatest achievement: Recognizing and dealing well with Gorbachev

ARTelevision · 06-05-2004, 04:30 PM

A historically significant human being and a great leader of the world's most powerful nation...

reconmike · 06-05-2004, 04:37 PM

RIP Mr. President,

You were ther best President I had the honor of serving under in the Marine Corps. (list includes Carter, Reagan, Bush, Slick Willie, and Bush.

Not only did you repair the American image, you stood for something on the world stage.

The USSR was our enemy, and you dealt with them better than any president ever did.

I will put my blues on tonight and give you the proper salute.

Fremen · 06-05-2004, 05:37 PM

One more time for The Gipper.

R.I.P., Ronald Reagan.

Rdr4evr · 06-05-2004, 05:41 PM

How come when someone dies they become so great? Will Bush be known as a great leader who cared for the people when he dies too? Its just funny that no bad a person did will be remembered when they kick the bucket.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 05:43 PM

1. I am from the Soviet Union, but not from Russia. The Soviet Union was made up of 15 republics, of which Russia was the largest. I am from Ukraine.
2. I am not a communist. I'm not even a socialist. I am actually a conservative in terms of economic issues. However, I am still against innocent people dying due to political disagreements, and consider Reagan's funding of the Contras deplorable. Please refrain from making innacurate assumtpions.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rdr4evr
How come when someone dies they become so great? Will Bush be known as a great leader who cared for the people when he dies too? Its just funny that no bad a person did will be remembered when they kick the bucket.

Finally, someone from the real world. I hate it how everyone becomes perfect once they die. No, Abraham Lincoln never denied the right of due process to defendants. No, Franklin Roosevelt never tried to increase the size of the Supreme Court so that he could gain control of it by appointing the new justices. No, Lyndon Johnson never promised to refrain from sending "American boys to do a job that Asian boys ought to be doing "themselves".

Of course, when George W. Bush dies, everyone will forget the Patriot Act and the baseless war, because he was such a "charismatic" and "compassionate" person, while being able to "connect to Joe Sixpack".

Halx · 06-05-2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SCrubjay
Halx --- how close are you to the Reagan library?

10 minutes, maybe.

Rodney · 06-05-2004, 06:00 PM

I'll tell you my Ronald Reagan story.

The year is 1972, and I am a 16-year-old high school junior in California. It is the second week of summer, and because I did too well at social studies I have been whisked off for a week at Boys State, a program sponsored by the American Legion to train tomorrow's leaders or some damn thing. Anyway, 800 soon-to-be-seniors got trucked off to the Sacramento State campus to play state government for a week. Which we did. 800 16- and 17-year-old boys living in dorms on a college campus for a week, with no privacy and no girls. The horniness factor was at, well, code red.

Reagan was still governor of California, and he came to give the keynote speech to us all in the big college gym as the week drew to a close. He was a big guy, a good talker with a bad dye job -- in those days, the joke was that he was "prematurely orange."

So he tells us how great we are and that we're the hope of tomorrow and all that, standing out there in the middle of the basketball court with his security team. Then he takes a few questions from the audience; and remember, these were mostly student-body politics kids, so there were more than a few smart-asses. One guy asks him his views on contraception. And he says, "Y'know, the very best contraception is just that one little word -- "No." This to a gym full of horny high school guys. What do you think we did? Gave him a mighty roar and a standing ovation for the size of his balls.

And if you do just a little digging on the web, you'll find the place where Reagan is noted as the only future president ever to marry a woman who was already pregnant. I don't think Reagan had a mean or vicious bone in his body, but I do think "Great Bullshitter" is a more accurate term than Great Communicator.

I did get his signature on a Boys State ID card for no good reason, and it may still be around here.

Phaenx · 06-05-2004, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rdr4evr
How come when someone dies they become so great? Will Bush be known as a great leader who cared for the people when he dies too? Its just funny that no bad a person did will be remembered when they kick the bucket.

Reagan was hailed as the best president ever long before his death. During his presidency even, he shut down the commies after all.

And while I'm on the subject of the commies, good riddance. Quit your bitching, you were our enemy at the time, User.

Reagan was a good man. He was a strong leader, faithful husband and a great role model. It's a shame what I thought would happen when he passed on has turned out to be the case. There is no political value in demeaning Reagan now, but I knew some of the more immature liberals would do it anyhow.

Knock it off if only for your own sake. You're coming across as spiteful douche's to be frank.

HarmlessRabbit · 06-05-2004, 06:31 PM

While I could quibble about some of Reagan's policies, I wasn't president, so what do I know?

As Thatcher said, Reagan ended the cold war without firing a shot, when both sides had more than enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world.

So, hats off to him, and sympathy to his family for enduring 10 years of Alzheimer's. I'm sure that was hard on them.

Yakk · 06-05-2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by User Name
I am from the former Soviet Union, and while I do not remember what life was like there, my parents do, and they say it was best in the early 1980s. Thank you so much, President Reagan, for fucking up the economy of my homeland. Also, seeing as Reagan gets so much credit for breaking up the USSR, perhaps he should be thanked along with Gorbachev for DECREASING THE STANDARD OF LIVING IN HALF. My parents would have never wanted to leave (though they definitely could, to Israel or the US) if the Soviet Union didn't break up and the economy wasn't in ruins.

First, Russia's government chose to match American military spending. They could have given up. The Russian economy was ruined because it was competing against an economic system that outperformed it. Reagan simply overheated the American economy slightly, and Russia's attempts to match this exploded their economic boiler.

Second, isn't Russia's economy looking up?

Third, the USSR had vowed to overthrow all capitalist economies. Which sort of explains why capitalist countries where, well, rather leery of USSR-backed nation states, and willing to back those who rebel against them. It was more than a bit overdone and ferile, but they really where fighting for survival at the time.

What you describe as a "political disagreement" was only held back from being a shooting war by the existance of nuclear bombs on both sides.

Was Reagan an idiot about many things, possibly a war criminal, and maybe a bit demented before he finished his presidency? I'd guess yes.

But, he brought the world back from the brink of death. That's worth some points.

Win one more for the Gipper.

Quote:

We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free.

—President Ronald Wilson Reagan, June 6th, 1984

As an aside, if Bush pulls it off, if he manages to start a wave of freedom and democracy in the middle east, I'd forgive him Patriot, I'd forgive him Ashcroft, I'd forgive him Cheney, I'd forgive him for fiscial idiocy. I'd even forgive him for G.Bay.

Mondak · 06-05-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rdr4evr
How come when someone dies they become so great? Will Bush be known as a great leader who cared for the people when he dies too? Its just funny that no bad a person did will be remembered when they kick the bucket.

Reagan has been my inspiration and my hero for a very long time. While sometimes people are so afraid to talk bad about the dead that they become saints in death, at least for me, this is not at all the case. At the MondKastle, the flags are flying at half mast and we are reflecting on Ronnie's life right now.

Quote:

Originally posted by User Name
I am from the former Soviet Union, and while I do not remember what life was like there, my parents do, and they say it was best in the early 1980s. Thank you so much, President Reagan, for fucking up the economy of my homeland. Also, seeing as Reagan gets so much credit for breaking up the USSR, perhaps he should be thanked along with Gorbachev for DECREASING THE STANDARD OF LIVING IN HALF. My parents would have never wanted to leave (though they definitely could, to Israel or the US) if the Soviet Union didn't break up and the economy wasn't in ruins.

While trading arms for hostages is pretty reasonable and humane to me, using the profits from those sales to fund armed rebel groups is not. Reagan wanted to eliminate the Sadinistas because any left-wing government, in his eyes, is evil, causing thousands of deaths.

Thank you President Reagan. I'll join you in hell.

As for User Name, you continue to be a thread troll in a clearly inappropriate way. Either way - you are reacting without facts. Here is a thought. The Sandinistas lost power how? When they could no longer hold power through force (bought by the Soviets) there were free elections. Your heros who ran the country were voted out. That's right - it was the evils of free will again.

The Iran-Contra affair questioned the methods used when the administration went outside the normal checks and balances found in our governmental system. What really was not debated was the goal. It came down to another way to pressure the Soviets to commit their scarce resources. It suceeded in that goal acording to the Soviets themselves after the cold was was over.

As far as your heritage. Do some reading and talk to some of your relatives. The standard of living in Russia is what it is because of corruption plain and simple. The very few ruled the very many. Decisions on what was best for your family were being made far away from where you were and after being filtered through many levels of people - all with their hand out taking a portion of the hard work that people were doing. It is no surprise that in the historical short term, the standard of living went into the toilet. Instead of quoting Reagan here - I will go with Ben Franklin:

Quote:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Were your bread lines a little longer after Communism crashed? Yep. Can you now stand in the street and protest the bread lines without being sent to Siberia? Yep. You decide what is better. There is a lot of corruption still back in your homeland with "private" enterprise being controlled by underworld figures who got their power from the former regime. Maybe you can go back there and help to clean things up someday instead of being a troll and acting in innappropriate ways. This thread is not the first time you have acted this way on the TFP and I think as you mature a little, hopefully you will not be so hateful. I would think that you could learn some lessons from your parents. Sit down and talk to them about their ability to practice their choosen religion and see how their experience compares to today in the United States. I don't even believe in god, but I do believe in the freedoms that allow me to choose when and how to follow my beliefs.

Try and channel the anger you have for others instead toward a search for knowledge and see where that takes you. At the very least, you will have the facts to debate in a knowledgeable manner. Maybe in the process you will find the respect to use the back button when people are mourning or the forsight to bring this up a week or more ago.

BoCo · 06-05-2004, 07:16 PM

I only wish I had been old enough to vote for him because I would have dome it both times. He stood for what a true Republican really is (unlike the phonies nowadays) and did more good for the world than the next 10 presidents after him probably will.

Rest in peace, Gipper.

Mondak · 06-05-2004, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yakk
As an aside, if Bush pulls it off, if he manages to start a wave of freedom and democracy in the middle east, I'd forgive him Patriot, I'd forgive him Ashcroft, I'd forgive him Cheney, I'd forgive him for fiscial idiocy. I'd even forgive him for G.Bay.

Maybe this is a good thread to start in politics on its own. "History writes about GWB. "

User Name · 06-05-2004, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yakk

Second, isn't Russia's economy looking up?

Once again, Russia is being ignorantly equated to the Soviet Union.

Ukraine is a country of over 40,000,000 people in Eastern Europe. In terms of area, it is the largest country located entirely in Europe (the Russian part of Europe is bigger than Ukraine). Geographical ignorance is one of my biggest pet peeves.

And no, Ukraine's economy is not looking up. The average household income is around $4,000, and the distribution is even worse, as many of those contributing to the rise in average income are the corrupt businessmen.

I realize that this is a divergence from the topic at hand, but this mistake occurs entirely too often.

User Name · 06-05-2004, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mondak
Reagan has been my inspiration and my hero for a very long time. While sometimes people are so afraid to talk bad about the dead that they become saints in death, at least for me, this is not at all the case. At the MondKastle, the flags are flying at half mast and we are reflecting on Ronnie's life right now.

As for User Name, you continue to be a thread troll in a clearly inappropriate way. Either way - you are reacting without facts. Here is a thought. The Sandinistas lost power how? When they could no longer hold power through force (bought by the Soviets) there were free elections. Your heros who ran the country were voted out. That's right - it was the evils of free will again.

The Iran-Contra affair questioned the methods used when the administration went outside the normal checks and balances found in our governmental system. What really was not debated was the goal. It came down to another way to pressure the Soviets to commit their scarce resources. It suceeded in that goal acording to the Soviets themselves after the cold was was over.

As far as your heritage. Do some reading and talk to some of your relatives. The standard of living in Russia is what it is because of corruption plain and simple. The very few ruled the very many. Decisions on what was best for your family were being made far away from where you were and after being filtered through many levels of people - all with their hand out taking a portion of the hard work that people were doing. It is no surprise that in the historical short term, the standard of living went into the toilet. Instead of quoting Reagan here - I will go with Ben Franklin:

Were your bread lines a little longer after Communism crashed? Yep. Can you now stand in the street and protest the bread lines without being sent to Siberia? Yep. You decide what is better. There is a lot of corruption still back in your homeland with "private" enterprise being controlled by underworld figures who got their power from the former regime. Maybe you can go back there and help to clean things up someday instead of being a troll and acting in innappropriate ways. This thread is not the first time you have acted this way on the TFP and I think as you mature a little, hopefully you will not be so hateful. I would think that you could learn some lessons from your parents. Sit down and talk to them about their ability to practice their choosen religion and see how their experience compares to today in the United States. I don't even believe in god, but I do believe in the freedoms that allow me to choose when and how to follow my beliefs.

Try and channel the anger you have for others instead toward a search for knowledge and see where that takes you. At the very least, you will have the facts to debate in a knowledgeable manner. Maybe in the process you will find the respect to use the back button when people are mourning or the forsight to bring this up a week or more ago.

Please do not equate Russia with the Soviet Union.

With that being said, there was always enough to eat after about 1950, when recovery from WW2 was in progress. Maybe we didn't eat caviar on crackers, but we had enough enough to survive. My father worked at a bread factory (albeit after the breakup, so my family's bread line wasn't too long, as you can imagine). And protests? We wouldn't protest even here in the United States. The only reason Ukrainians can't be sent to prison in Siberia now is that Siberia is in a WHOLE OTHER COUNTRY! Maybe we here in America have grown too accustomed to outsourcing, but no, the Ukrainian government, fucked up as it might be, is not planning to outsource its prisons anytime soon. Human rights are still shit, Communism or no Communism, and corruption runs rampant. At least we were better off economically.

Being an atheist myself, I would have no problem with not being allowed to worship my imaginary best friend. My parents and grandparents, while believing, have absolutely no interest in stepping into a synagogue even in the "land of the free".

I'm not saying the Soviet Union was any sort of utopia, but life there was certainly bearable for the majority of people. The effect of its breakup was more economic than anything else, and the standard of living took a steep turn for the worse. Since Reagan is given so much credit for breaking up the USSR by conservatives, which he does not necessarily deserve, then I suppose it is valid to blame him for the negative effects of the breakup, as well as the positive ones (of which there weren't many).

As for going back, Ukraine can go and fuck itself. Thankfully, all of my relatives have left since independence, and I could care less about what goes on in there. A visit, maybe someday. Having any dealings with it, business or otherwise, HELL NO.

Locobot · 06-05-2004, 08:13 PM

Mondak-this thread is named only ...Reagan dead... as such it is a place where people can respond to that fact positively or negatively without being accused of "trolling."

I find it hard to believe that Reagan is so revered here given that he worked so hard to make much of what is available on the TFP illegal. Read up on Reagan's Meese Commision some time. Check out his work as head of the Screen Actor's Guild when he ratted out members as being communists (always falsely) and had them blacklisted. The man was almost never seen speaking without a script, certainly not ever without his handlers' setting up every aspect of his appearance. It's too bad that he probably spent the last 16 years of his life confused, demented, and unaware who his children and wife were. The man was an actor his whole life, he played the part of a politician but never was one. R.I.P. to the Great Thespian.

Jesus Pimp · 06-05-2004, 08:40 PM

About fucking time. One of the worst presidents ever.

06-05-2004, 12:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
Arroe Insane Location: USA	President Ronald Reagan dead at 93 Breaking news, story in a minute

06-05-2004, 01:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Rest in Peace, Ronnie, thanks for all the contributions you made to make the world a better place. I still remember so vividly the day that he was shot... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

06-05-2004, 01:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	Its showing on the news right now...hope he went peacefully... __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

06-05-2004, 01:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	They totally hijacked the baseball game to inform me of this - great. However, 15 minutes later, they were still going on and on about it. Geez! Ok, the guy died. I can hear about it later. Now get me back to my LIVE baseball game. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

06-05-2004, 01:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	May he rest in peace. A great man and President. Having fun with Nancy. Say, whats that in your hand Nancy. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

06-05-2004, 12:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	1911-2004... a long long life

06-05-2004, 01:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
Aletheia Psycho	RIP Ronney.

06-05-2004, 01:21 PM	#8 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	wow- I just saw a headline on MSN just this morning saying that his health is declining, but i didn't know it so that serious. RIP

06-05-2004, 02:22 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mondak Industrialist Location: Southern California	Patriot, Capitalist, Hero and Friend to people all over the world who benefited from the vision and conviction that saw us through a time that could have spelled the end of us all. Thanks Ronnie. I will never forget you. __________________ All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as self-evident. ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

06-05-2004, 02:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
User Name Banned Location: Urf	Nobody seems to mention his role in funding the Nicaragua Contras, which resulted in thousands of civilian deaths. But whatever.

06-05-2004, 02:34 PM	#12 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	As Nancy would say... "Just Say No" __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

06-05-2004, 02:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
LewisCouch Insane Location: Pacific NW	A real man who stood by his convictions. __________________ "The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on the contrary, it increases the desire to walk." -- Massimo d'Azeglio

06-05-2004, 03:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
LewisCouch Insane Location: Pacific NW	"Whatever else history may say about me when I'm gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears, to your confidence rather than your doubts. My dream is that you will travel the road ahead with liberty's lamp guiding your steps and opportunity's arm steadying your way." -Ronald Reagan __________________ "The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on the contrary, it increases the desire to walk." -- Massimo d'Azeglio

06-05-2004, 03:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
portwineboy Master of No Domains Location: WEEhawken, New Joisey	He was a great American. __________________ If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a veteran.

06-05-2004, 03:39 PM	#16 (permalink)
SCrubjay Upright	RIP Mr. President. The first president I voted for ........ 24 years later, still happy with that vote ....... wish I had that choice today. Halx --- how close are you to the Reagan library?

06-05-2004, 03:59 PM	#19 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	So, it was best in the early '80's when who, exactly was President? Oh yeah, Ronald Reagan. He's the best president we've had in a really, really, long time, and probably for a long time to come. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

06-05-2004, 04:16 PM	#22 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Rest in Peace Ronald. Though your policies and goals were opposite of mine (I will refrain from bringing any of it up out of respect) , you did injected necessary joviality back into America. That is worth something. Greatest achievement: Recognizing and dealing well with Gorbachev

06-05-2004, 04:30 PM	#23 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	A historically significant human being and a great leader of the world's most powerful nation... __________________ create evolution

06-05-2004, 04:37 PM	#24 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	RIP Mr. President, You were ther best President I had the honor of serving under in the Marine Corps. (list includes Carter, Reagan, Bush, Slick Willie, and Bush. Not only did you repair the American image, you stood for something on the world stage. The USSR was our enemy, and you dealt with them better than any president ever did. I will put my blues on tonight and give you the proper salute. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

06-05-2004, 05:37 PM	#25 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	One more time for The Gipper. R.I.P., Ronald Reagan. __________________ Google

06-05-2004, 05:41 PM	#26 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	How come when someone dies they become so great? Will Bush be known as a great leader who cared for the people when he dies too? Its just funny that no bad a person did will be remembered when they kick the bucket.

06-05-2004, 05:43 PM	#27 (permalink)
User Name Banned Location: Urf	1. I am from the Soviet Union, but not from Russia. The Soviet Union was made up of 15 republics, of which Russia was the largest. I am from Ukraine. 2. I am not a communist. I'm not even a socialist. I am actually a conservative in terms of economic issues. However, I am still against innocent people dying due to political disagreements, and consider Reagan's funding of the Contras deplorable. Please refrain from making innacurate assumtpions. Last edited by phredgreen; 06-05-2004 at 10:56 PM..

06-05-2004, 06:00 PM	#30 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I'll tell you my Ronald Reagan story. The year is 1972, and I am a 16-year-old high school junior in California. It is the second week of summer, and because I did too well at social studies I have been whisked off for a week at Boys State, a program sponsored by the American Legion to train tomorrow's leaders or some damn thing. Anyway, 800 soon-to-be-seniors got trucked off to the Sacramento State campus to play state government for a week. Which we did. 800 16- and 17-year-old boys living in dorms on a college campus for a week, with no privacy and no girls. The horniness factor was at, well, code red. Reagan was still governor of California, and he came to give the keynote speech to us all in the big college gym as the week drew to a close. He was a big guy, a good talker with a bad dye job -- in those days, the joke was that he was "prematurely orange." So he tells us how great we are and that we're the hope of tomorrow and all that, standing out there in the middle of the basketball court with his security team. Then he takes a few questions from the audience; and remember, these were mostly student-body politics kids, so there were more than a few smart-asses. One guy asks him his views on contraception. And he says, "Y'know, the very best contraception is just that one little word -- "No." This to a gym full of horny high school guys. What do you think we did? Gave him a mighty roar and a standing ovation for the size of his balls. And if you do just a little digging on the web, you'll find the place where Reagan is noted as the only future president ever to marry a woman who was already pregnant. I don't think Reagan had a mean or vicious bone in his body, but I do think "Great Bullshitter" is a more accurate term than Great Communicator. I did get his signature on a Boys State ID card for no good reason, and it may still be around here. Last edited by Rodney; 06-05-2004 at 06:08 PM..

06-05-2004, 06:31 PM	#32 (permalink)
HarmlessRabbit Junkie Location: San Jose, CA	While I could quibble about some of Reagan's policies, I wasn't president, so what do I know? As Thatcher said, Reagan ended the cold war without firing a shot, when both sides had more than enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world. So, hats off to him, and sympathy to his family for enduring 10 years of Alzheimer's. I'm sure that was hard on them.

06-05-2004, 07:16 PM	#35 (permalink)
BoCo Fear the bunny Location: Hanging off the tip of the Right Wing	I only wish I had been old enough to vote for him because I would have dome it both times. He stood for what a true Republican really is (unlike the phonies nowadays) and did more good for the world than the next 10 presidents after him probably will. Rest in peace, Gipper. __________________ Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.

06-05-2004, 08:13 PM	#39 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Mondak-this thread is named only ...Reagan dead... as such it is a place where people can respond to that fact positively or negatively without being accused of "trolling." I find it hard to believe that Reagan is so revered here given that he worked so hard to make much of what is available on the TFP illegal. Read up on Reagan's Meese Commision some time. Check out his work as head of the Screen Actor's Guild when he ratted out members as being communists (always falsely) and had them blacklisted. The man was almost never seen speaking without a script, certainly not ever without his handlers' setting up every aspect of his appearance. It's too bad that he probably spent the last 16 years of his life confused, demented, and unaware who his children and wife were. The man was an actor his whole life, he played the part of a politician but never was one. R.I.P. to the Great Thespian.

06-05-2004, 08:40 PM	#40 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	About fucking time. One of the worst presidents ever. __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.