Stud

The Europeans, America's moral superiors, are responsible for a huge chunk of that.

If Europeans could have been peaceful they would be the world powers now. Too bad the same people who preach peace now could never follow it when they were in the drivers seat...

filtherton

We're trying to focus on the good things in iraq, not the posts filtherton edited to keep himself on topic (in which, by the way, i seriously agreed that there are some good things going on in iraq). Geez, at least get the whole story before you jump in here hanging from the coattails of somebody else's criticism(i still think comparing iraq with germany and japan is a little off-base). Stay on topic yourself. Now, if you please, commence the love in.

nanofever

That cuts both ways...

If Europeans had be peaceful, America would have been slaughtered by the British military, who would have been undistracted by French saber-rattling in both Europe and the Americas.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Skettios

Also I hear they're bringing back those silly little hats. You know, the Fez! That's some more good news about Iraq.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

wallace1

I agree with powerclown, for one have become very tired of everyone (including our own) bashing America. I will not go into a tirade because there are too many too often, but on the eve of Memorial Day I for one would like to say Thank You to our American Servicemen and Women.
And thank you powerclown for your post.

__________________
Midway in the journey of our life I came to myself in a dark wood, for the straight way was lost.

Stud

In 1941-42 when the US first entered World War II it was not clear at all that the Allies could or would win but that did not stop the Allies from trying. They concentrated on getting the job done and eventually won.

Shiite, if you look at the Hitler…..errrr..History channel it is still not clear we will EVER beat the unstoppable German military machine!

So I am willing to wait more than a year to see if the job in Iraq can be completed. Seems to me the greatest enemies are Westerners, not Iraqi's who mostly want peace.

Stud

Say again in English, OVER.

Stud

Remember it is how to fight Americans. The Soviets learned that in Vietnam when the KGB funded parts of the US anti-war movement.

Now after 30 more years of Disney and movies that show that there is a peaceful solution to everything it is MUCH easier to topple the U.S.

filtherton

Maybe you can chalk this up to my lack of historic expertise, but i don't remember ever hearing about suicide bombers in post ww2 germany or japan, i never heard about the time that the u.s. attempted to broker a deal with a former general in the axis military to create peace in a certain hamlet of resistance. Clearly it is not as cut and dry as "Well, it totally worked in germany and japan".

apeman

comparison with WWII
the Germans attempted to set up a guerilla organization to harrass the Allies after they'd lost - apparently it was a bit of a joke at best. I think the Germans had had enough by then you know? We'd been bombing the shit out of them for years, the whole country was shattered. I guess having nukes dropped on your country also makes you a bit war-weary. The Japanese obviously had suicide bombers towards the end of the war, but when the emperor surrendered, that was it.

so the main difference are that Iraq had a short, sharp war with fairly low civilian casualties (for a war, that is), and there's also the religious dimension.

back on topic again
of course there's good stuff happening in Iraq, at least the poor civvies don't get mustard gassed much these days. on the other hand, a good end doesn't justify bad means - i.e. just cos it's an improvement doesn't necessarily mean the war was a "good thing" or conducted for "good" reasons.

__________________
pain is inevitable but misery is optional - stick a geranium in your hat and be happy

powerclown

More links:

- Save The Children Gives Iraqi Children Hope
- Iraqi Business and Reconstruction News
- Iraq Infrastructure Reconstruction Program
- United Nations Development Program
- Iraqi Airways Making Ready to Serve the World
- Economic and Financial Reconstruction in Iraq

tangledweb

There have definitely been some good things coming out of GW2 from an american perspective but we have an international membership here on the TFP. Sadaam needed to be removed (or killed) every bit as much as Milosevich, Bin Laden and all of the others that take any human life as an acceptable loss in their efforts.

I think that the global community has a very different perspective on what is going in Iraq than Americans do. The media focuses on whatever will get them sales/ratings/ or advertising $ and as FOR PROFIT companies they will spin ANY tale that makes them more profitable. It is good to see that not everyone is lulled into believing everything they see and hear on the news channels.

Stud

Yes, I guess I can chalk this up to your ignorance. There was resistance to the Soviets into the 60's. Using suicide bombers or bombs is really not an issue.

Also just because people commit violent acts does not mean they are right.

filtherton

Okay, you've got me. Iraq is exactly like japan and germany, we can all rest assured that our mission in iraq will be a complete success, and a healthy, pro-western democracy will be created. Game on.

Not sure where you got the idea that this fact was ever in dispute by me.

Stud

No, Iraq is not exactly like anything and the country that is formed will not be exactly like either of those mentioned. But Japan and Germany were no exactly like any other when the Allies set forth on their mission of democratization of them.

At that time there were naysayers, such as you, and they ended up being wrong, as I hope you will be. Crying about the sky falling without enough data is a hope on your part not a realistic portrayal of the situation.

filtherton

I never said that the sky was falling anymore than you said that iraq was paradise. I honestly do hope that everything works out ok over there. While you may find solace in post ww2 comparisons, i am troubled by the more current goings on. While i may lack historical perspective you lack the ability to see the future.

Stud

I do know that many people in 1945 held the same views that you now hold about the future of Iraq except they were speaking of Japan and Germany. Most of this turned out to be nationalistic ego's and pure racism. The racism is what I see now. "Those people can't have a democracy!" Pffft! "Those" people are no different than any other people.

I may not be able to see the future but I am willing to accept that almost all people want the same things, just maybe not in the same exact ways. Saddam may have brought stability to the region but the price was not cheap.

filtherton

I think you're confused if you think that i am pessimistic about the creation of democracy in iraq because i think a-rabs don't have the capacity for democracy.