Ultimate Bill Cosby Thread: Blacks can't speak English

[KWSN]

I can't say anything but WAY TO GO, BILL! Incredibly true.

Also, I am a little offended about the title of the article, the way it is stated makes it seem like a bad thing. No doubt there will be outrage over this from idiotic people who only read titles. Just watch, within two days there will be Bill Cosby backlash.

Same goes for the thing recently about the "Multiculturalism is bunk" article about the Maryland Senator (Governor?). He made very valid points yet the article title failed to make it seem that way.

[ARTelevision]

The entire linguistic text and politico-cultural subtext here is so brave as to constitute a revolutionary call.

Entire generations of politically-correct avoidance and denial as well as misplaced identities and allegiances, insidious marketing and enablement, and wrong-headed solidarity regarding these issues will require nothing less than a massive dose of getting a clue here. I'm not optimistic that this is possible.

[maximusveritas]

Originally posted by KWSN
I can't say anything but WAY TO GO, BILL! Incredibly true.

Also, I am a little offended about the title of the article, the way it is stated makes it seem like a bad thing. No doubt there will be outrage over this from idiotic people who only read titles. Just watch, within two days there will be Bill Cosby backlash.

Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. They turned Cosby's courageous and positive statements into a negative and inflammatory statement, simply to appeal to the narrow ideological views of their readers.

The point of Cosby's statements was that it is time for the young African-American community to get rid of the defeatist attitude that has been plaguing it for years and begin to continue the path that was set by the civil rights leaders who came before them. His message is a postive one and one that I would like to hear more from some younger leaders in the black community

[sailor]

Way to go Bill... He nailed it on the head right there, and couldnt have picked a better place to do it.

[Lebell]

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
Education:
Temple University, Philadelphia, PA; B.A.; Radio/TV/Film
University of Massachusetts--Amherst; M.A.; Education, 1972; Ph.D; Education, 1977

Thanks for the correction.

[izzzzy]

when i was in texas a guy told me i sounded like a fertilizer salesman with a mouth full of samples.

[soccerchamp76]

Cosby said, according to Leiby: "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids – $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.'

I worked at a summer job for my dad at a warehouse with blacks from 20-30. The ratio of money spent on family and education to drugs/car rims/car stereo is utterly pathetic. A good majority of them never graduated college, are making $8.00/hr, and pay child support.

[Eugeni]

Ebonics
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

African-American Vernacular English (AAVE), also called Ebonics (see below), Black English, or Black English Vernacular (BEV) is a dialect of American English. Strictly speaking, there is some controversy in the larger community about whether it should be considered a dialect, but this is based on difference of opinion about what it means to be a dialect. Among working linguists there is no such controversy. Similar to common Southern US English, the dialect is spoken in many African-American communities in the United States, especially in urban areas. It has its origins in the culture of enslaved Americans and also has roots in England.



(a wee more info about ebonics)

[Fallon]

I'm split on this. Such as the parents buying their kids shoes instead of educational stuff. Blacks aren't the only one to do this. No one is free from that. I think also, young blacks are basically doing the same as other young people now. Look at how crappy English is in schools and what not.
I think what he said was definately couragous, espically at where he was, but I think many many pieces of it can be labelled to many other people besides black families now.
Just the other day, I saw a lady with 4 kids. You could tell they were poor because of the childrens clothes, but yet the mom had on an outfit that is sold at a store for over a hundred bucks.
I dunno I think society is headin' down the drain and somethings got to be done about everything, not just a small segment.

Edit: Fixed my fuck up.

[tecoyah]

Just an observation......Many of the posts in this thread, show as little respect for the English language as the Ebonics we are discussing. Errors in syntax, and the inability to use defined language are prevelant in all aspects of our culture. If indeed, there is a "perfect" form of English, we are all guilty of failing to use it, to some extent.

This is not in defense of one cultural interpretation of English, or another. Just a reminder that we are a diverse population, and will make societal changes to whatever language we have, regardless of race, or economic status.

[tecoyah]

Originally posted by Fallon
I'm split on this. Such as the parents buying their kids shoes instead of educational stuff. Blacks are the only one to do this. No one is free from that. I think also, young blacks are basically doing the same as other young people now. Look at how crappy English is in schools and what not.
I think what he said was definately couragous, espically at where he was, but I think many many pieces of it can be labelled to many other people besides black families now.
Just the other day, I saw a lady with 4 kids. You could tell they were poor because of the childrens clothes, but yet the mom had on an outfit that is sold at a store for over a hundred bucks.
I dunno I think society is headin' down the drain and somethings got to be done about everything, not just a small segment.

Please Fallon, take no offense.

I'm split on this issue. As an example, parents buying children shoes, rather than investing in thier education. African-Americans are not alone in this, as no segment of society is immune.
The failure of Language education in the public schools may carry some of the blame.Considering the venue Mr. Cosby used for his statements, he showed definate courage. The bulk of his statement could just as easily be directed towards virtually any segment of society, and be justified.
I am reminded of a situation I witnessed. A woman of obvious poverty, her four children in tattered and shabby clothing, somehow found the means to dress herself in designer apparel worth in excess of $100.00.
I find it diturbing that society , in general, is heading in the wrong direction. It would be refreshing to see change directed at the whole, rather than any particular segment.




As you can see, it all comes down to interpretation of the language. There really is no right, or wrong way to speak. There are simply "different" ways to communicate within a society.
Naturally, this is just my opinion.

[hulk]

A lack of grammar in an online forum is a far cry from the ebonics under question =).

[raeanna74]

I think one reason for his statements is the victim mentality that many people and especially some minority groups have today. If you act like a victim then people who respond in kind and take advantage of your victim mentality. Get out of the victim mentality. Anyone can do almost anything if they REALLY want to do it. Early in the black equality movements there were blacks who made sacrifices and didn't act like victims because of their sacrifices. They were seen as victors because they acted like it. The "poor me, poor us, we are born poor, we're trapped in poverty" kind of mentality is a defeatist position to take. In America we are not trapped by casts as in some middle East countries where is practically illegal for a person from a low cast to work in a white collar job. Here in America - if you work hard enough and learn to act with class then you will open up your own doors. Language isn't the only issue. It's your whole attitude and actions.

[wwcd101]

It's educational and empowering to hear differering opinions on any subject. Why is it that among educated people racial issues can't be discussed openly?

Mr. Cosby's observations are refreshing, regardless whether or not you agree with them.

Thanks for listening.

[ARTelevision]

As I mentioned earlier, these are some of the reasons.

"...politically-correct avoidance and denial as well as misplaced identities and allegiances, insidious marketing and enablement, and wrong-headed solidarity..."

[water_boy1999]

Good point hulk.

I commend Mr. Cosby for making those remarks. I wish there were more community leaders that addressed the real issues that we face as a society and stop worrying so much about how there image will be poytrayed if they speak against the system. Frankly, I am tired of hearing how certain segments of society don't have as many opportunities to get an education, good job, money for their kids, etc....

My neighbor and good friend is Black. He recently moved from Inglewood, California and from the stories he tells, he had it pretty rough as a kid. From gang violence to lack of schooling materials, to drug ridden communities to police brutality, he certainly had it rough growing up. However, he had as much of a chance to get out of that lifestyle and make something of the situation. I am proud to say he has. He will be going to college in August, he has a good job, he is saving for a car, and he has aspirations to do so much more with himself.

I think the point that Mr. Cosby is making is that there is ample opportunity for any segment of society to get out of the hole they are in. Unfortunately, particular segments aren't capitalizing on those said opportunities. It is about time someone spoke up at an event like this and pointed out that our society does have a continuing problem and noone seems to be doing anything about it.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by Fallon
I'm split on this. Such as the parents buying their kids shoes instead of educational stuff. Blacks are the only one to do this. No one is free from that. I think also, young blacks are basically doing the same as other young people now. Look at how crappy English is in schools and what not.
I think what he said was definately couragous, espically at where he was, but I think many many pieces of it can be labelled to many other people besides black families now.
Just the other day, I saw a lady with 4 kids. You could tell they were poor because of the childrens clothes, but yet the mom had on an outfit that is sold at a store for over a hundred bucks.
I dunno I think society is headin' down the drain and somethings got to be done about everything, not just a small segment.

umm no. I know lots of Filipinos that do it too....

I call them Figgers.

[soccerchamp76]

There is a vast difference from ebonics to semi-proper English. I overheard a five minute conversation at the warehouse I spoke above, and to be honest, I was unable to understand a single word, along with my friend. We were not able to put together ANY two words that this particular group was speaking.

[Fallon]

Crap crap crap crap crap
I meant to say AREN'T
damnit...sorry.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by Fallon
Crap crap crap crap crap
I meant to say AREN'T
damnit...sorry.

Yes, for some reason they don't see the value in the education process.

[ibis]

I give props to Bill for having balls. On the other hand, I live in a Residence Hall (P.C. for "dorm")with a very hetrogenous make up (some-what near equal number of blacks, whites, and asians) and have noticed many of the african americans can express them self quite nicley. In fact, these students can have a much firmer grasp of the english language than many, dare I say most, of the people I grew up with in the (hick) town of Leander, Texas (20 or so miles north of Austin, POP. around 4000(rough estimate)).

Yes, you can argue that the people I live with are in a different socioeconomic class than african americans in the "ghetto". Nevertheless, I know many white people that would rival the "ghetto" in terms of poor english.

I'm white btw.

[CrimsonApe]

All I have to say is great job Bill.

[shakran]

Originally posted by maleficent

For that matter, even the deep south in the US.

I'd disagree with the statement that there's one English, not with all the regional dialects that are out there.

True, but no one tries to force schools to teach "bilingually" in english and Southern. That's why ebonics is so maligned. Well, one of many reasons.

[MSD]

This reminds me of a Newsweek article from a few years back. It was about racial and cultural separations in the US. The only direct quote I remember from it was a 8-year-old child asking his mother (A lawyer or doctor, I think,) "Mom, why you talk with that fake white accent?"

People need to understand that they can unify in some areas like language without losing their cultural identities. Kids need to learn not to be mad at "the white man" for keeping them down, but be mad at those among their own cultural and ethnic groups who refuse to let them out of a self-perpetuating cycle of under-education, poverty, and cultural isolation. Only after this cycle is addressed and dealt with that outside help can bring the underpriveleged up to the level of mainstream society. Sort of a practical, down-to-earth application of "God helps he who helps himself"

[Prince]

I've to agree with Cosby on this one... Maybe it is a cultural thing, but I work with 3 black individuals, and not one of them speaks English correctly. And I don't mean making a mistake now and then, it is as if it's intentional. There's no effort. A spanish woman I work with has a small vocabulary of English words, but she never says "you is" or "it don't came yet". It's pretty horrid to listen to.

Oh, and sorry if the word "black" offends someone. I cannot keep up with whether we're supposed to say African-American or black these days.

[elfuq]

Originally posted by cameroncrazy822
There is ONE english language and there is ONE correct way to speak it whether one be black, white or orange.

No there's not. I'm from England. I talk differently to you. So do people from Canada. So do people from Texas. English is a broad church, a dynamic and evolving language. Just because you speak it differently does not make you stupid.

[hunnychile]

"Blacks Can't Speak English" - Bill Cosby at the NAACP.
--- Simply Brilliant!!

Yes, they "Can" but they "Don't"....many people of color would prefer to talk Ebonics. My friend Ennis says it's so they can have some privacy. Just like the folks speaking Spanish in Walmart. I speak Danish whenever I want to keep a comment private between my man and I in some public places.

As my bumper sticker says, "Axe Me About Ebonics".

[warrrreagl]

Originally posted by Seer666
Consider that line stolen. Fucking brillent.

And the little-known coda to that brilliant line is, "If you don't know where you want to go, then any road will take you there."

One of the things that make Dr. Cosby's humor so funny is that it's not "Black" humor; his stuff is just plain funny. It's the kind of stuff that happens to everyone, and so everyone can relate.

I think that's also what made "The Cosby Show" so funny and popular, too. The Huxtables were never a black family; they were an American family who happened to be black.

[warrrreagl]

Originally posted by cameroncrazy822
There is ONE english language and there is ONE correct way to speak it whether one be black, white or orange.

Don't the Chinese have essentially the same situation with Mandarin? Although they may speak with different dialects, they all learn to read and write Mandarin.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by warrrreagl
Don't the Chinese have essentially the same situation with Mandarin? Although they may speak with different dialects, they all learn to read and write Mandarin.

mandarin or cantonese are the predominant ones that I encounter.

[Scipio]

I worked at a summer job for my dad at a warehouse with blacks from 20-30. The ratio of money spent on family and education to drugs/car rims/car stereo is utterly pathetic. A good majority of them never graduated college, are making $8.00/hr, and pay child support.

I live in Arkansas, and this isn't just a black problem. There are a ton of dumbass white dudes running around with one 10 in their checking account and 2 tens in the trunk.

I agree with what Cosby says, and it's a step in the right direction. Equality is a two way street, and the African American community as a whole has not seized the opportunities they have been granted.

But in a move that I think conservatives can agree with, we need to recognize that these social problems transcend race, and pursue policies that extend opportunity to everyone at a disadvantage, regardless of race. The idea of being "disadvantaged" has been abused by some people, but it is no reason to discard the concept, or to start thinking that we've achieved equality. To put it another way, the approach has failed, but the problem persists.

[Rdr4evr]

I have to agree with Bill here. Nobody takes responsibility for their actions anymore. People are always looking to blame someone else. Its time these people go to school and get a education and stop the blame game. Im not just reffering to blacks either. But to be realistic, blacks and hispanics are the majority, where I live anyway.

[Damnfinn]

I have had friends from India who could speak " the Queens English" better than I can.
The term "Queen's English" I learned from a great college english prof. She often told use to use the spoken form appropriate for the group or individual but to have the command of true english.
If you can speak well, you can read well, and you write well; you have some of the greatest keys to success.

[theusername]

Bill wasnt talking to the educated blacks attending colleges he was talking about the gang bangers and money culture many are being raised in today on the streets.

The kids in your dorm are attending college and they certainly were not the targets of his criticism.

[RoboBlaster]

Wow, I think I am one of the only people who disagree with Bill Cosby on this one. Anecdotal evidence of things ethnic persons in poverty do paints a bad picture of what is going on. We can't totally blame the victim, because they are victims, after all. No one wants to be poor and have the inability to care for their family. To ignore the role of society and how it affects us is to ignore the biggest factor in poverty. We are not total individuals with total free will.

[ARTelevision]

I don't think he's denying that part at all.
I believe he was focusing on the personal responsibility piece.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by RoboBlaster
Wow, I think I am one of the only people who disagree with Bill Cosby on this one. Anecdotal evidence of things ethnic persons in poverty do paints a bad picture of what is going on. We can't totally blame the victim, because they are victims, after all. No one wants to be poor and have the inability to care for their family. To ignore the role of society and how it affects us is to ignore the biggest factor in poverty. We are not total individuals with total free will.

sure, but they are also the first to place blame on someone else instead of taking some responsibility of their own situation.

[westothemax]

Originally posted by warrrreagl
Don't the Chinese have essentially the same situation with Mandarin? Although they may speak with different dialects, they all learn to read and write Mandarin.

Chinese writing is all the same, no matter what dialect is spoken (besides the fact that there is now a Simplified character set and Traditional character set). At least this is true for Mandarin and Cantonese. I'd assume it would be true for all the other dialects. My dad can even read some Japanese but only knows the Cantonese pronounciation.

I learned a lot when we went on a family trip to Hong Kong, Beijing, and Shanghai. My parents are both from Hong Kong, where everyone speaks Cantonese. They both know minimal Mandarin, and the dialect in Shanghai went over all of our heads.

Sorry for straying from the topic.

Bill Cosby is awesome.

[rat]

As someone who lives in what's considered the "Deep South" (Texas), and has spent time in several of the surrounding states (Louisiana, Arkansas, and a couple others) as well as having lived in Chicago for 7 years, I can say that there are places everywhere I've been where people spoke such a mangled form of English that I could barely understand them.

For those of you who have seen My Cousin Vinny please recall the "two yutes" scene. In Bahstahn, it's cah pahk and bah, not car park and bar. In Texas it's "y'all git on inside 'fore I have t' lay int' y'all." I have been to some extremely "backwoods" parts of this fine state, and there are people that even I, as a native Texan, have trouble understanding unless I listen extremely closely.

Additionally, there's a guy at the local bar from London, and when he's in his pints and gets going, Ed is barely intelligible to me. I've been around quite a few Englishmen, as well as conversed with many via online mediums, and British English, Irish English, Scottish English, and American English are four very different languages when it comes to syntax, grammar, spelling and idiomatic expressions.

There is NO single English lexicon. However, BEV (Black English Vernacular) is simply a bastardization of the language to the point of being unintelligible to anyone who isn't immersed in it.


Regarding Cosby's statements, I couldn't agree more with both his words and his choice of venue to share them. This is a man who's spent his life becoming an educated and respected man, has held his doctorate for over 25 years in (of all things, GASP!) Education, and may just have some knowledge about the conditions of lower-middle class black americans when it comes to their economic/educational status in this nation.

[water_boy1999]

Originally posted by rat
As someone who lives in what's considered the "Deep South" (Texas), and has spent time in several of the surrounding states (Louisiana, Arkansas, and a couple others) as well as having lived in Chicago for 7 years, I can say that there are places everywhere I've been where people spoke such a mangled form of English that I could barely understand them.

For those of you who have seen My Cousin Vinny please recall the "two yutes" scene. In Bahstahn, it's cah pahk and bah, not car park and bar. In Texas it's "y'all git on inside 'fore I have t' lay int' y'all." I have been to some extremely "backwoods" parts of this fine state, and there are people that even I, as a native Texan, have trouble understanding unless I listen extremely closely.

Additionally, there's a guy at the local bar from London, and when he's in his pints and gets going, Ed is barely intelligible to me. I've been around quite a few Englishmen, as well as conversed with many via online mediums, and British English, Irish English, Scottish English, and American English are four very different languages when it comes to syntax, grammar, spelling and idiomatic expressions.

There is NO single English lexicon. However, BEV (Black English Vernacular) is simply a bastardization of the language to the point of being unintelligible to anyone who isn't immersed in it.


Regarding Cosby's statements, I couldn't agree more with both his words and his choice of venue to share them. This is a man who's spent his life becoming an educated and respected man, has held his doctorate for over 25 years in (of all things, GASP!) Education, and may just have some knowledge about the conditions of lower-middle class black americans when it comes to their economic/educational status in this nation.

Good points made Rat. One of my good friends and soon to be neighbors is Black. He is 23, a former college ball player, and just a cool cat all around. However, he speaks like he still lives in Inglewood. What I mean by this is he speaks ebonics. "What up yo?" "Whass checkin dog?" I know what he means because he is my friend, but I have often though about the job situation. Being IN the staffing industry, I wonder how far he wants to go or what type of work he eventually wants to settle into. I also think about the employer and what their first impression of the guy is because is the way he talks. I think very highly of my friend, but I also know he is putting up barriers for himself because of the way he talks sometimes. It isn't every day that I run into a black CTO, CEO, CIO of a company and they greet me with a, "What up E-Dawg?"