American beheaded by Iraqi complete thread

[noahfor]

Originally posted by shakran

And there's a mistake being made about the anger toward the beheading. We have to remember the culture we're dealing with here. This is a culture that cuts off your hand if you're caught stealing. It's a culture where it is not unheard of for people to be punished for the crimes of their relatives.

And now they watch Americans torturing their own people. What reaction did you expect? They're gonna be pissed off - doubly so because we marched in there shouting to the world how wonderful we are and how morally sound we are and how nice, respectful, and mindful of human rights we were. And then our people do something like this? Exactly what do you THINK Iraqis are going to feel about that?

Who cares what they feel about it? Who cares about their culture? Who cares what we did? Who cares if we should have been able to tell what they were going to do? I don't mean absolutely "who cares", I mean as it relates to anger about what they did.

What they did was the most vivid display of malice and ignorance, the most egregious act of indifference to human life I have ever heard of. There was no passion, there was no dissociation from the victim. He was right there in front of them, a person. I can't respond to that without anger just because it was predictable.

You can give reasons why they did it, but no reason would ever ever justify taking an innocent life.

We are all people. There is no differnce between groups of people other than the rules they abide by. The range of moral character is the same in any group. If it was socially acceptable to do so, I'm sure Americans would chop off the heads of iraqis.

[cartmen34]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Cartmen34,

I agree with shakran's evaluation. I believe it's dangerous to generalize like that.

Shakran,

In Cartmen's defense (and giving him the benefit of the doubt) when I first read that, I implied that he meant all as in ALL Al Qaeda. Which is still generalizing, but a generalization I'm sure many would agree with. However, if he meant all Arabs like you interpreted it, I agree that it was a poor generalization.

forseti, thanks for coming to my defense. As you can see a few posts back, my intention of the word "people" was aimed at Al Qaeda, not the arab or muslim population in general.

[Hanxter]

i wouldn't call what the americans did to the insurgents as "torture" but more humliation - and in that their culture has been violated...

to use that as an exuse to excute another in retaliation is barbaric in western society - not theirs...

to touch the breast of an arab woman is death...

what the guards did should be punished to the fullest extent of the law - but remember, it's our law - not theirs...

i do not agree with their methods of punishment but we have to remember where we are - in their country...

as for the extremists - to see an american woman with a leash around an iraqi man's neck being treated like a dog is all they need to rally the "believers"...

i wonder how that bitch lynndee england feels now...

[forseti-6]

Reading a post in another forum I frequent, someone made a good point. Why is it everything we do bad an "attrocity?" Whereas when the insurgents or whatnot do something horrible, it's only "retaliation?" Sounds like the media is playing it up for US to be the bad guys. I sometimes wonder whose side they are on. They're not reporting news, they're manufacturing opinions and propaganda. The truth is, they're all attrocities - why can't they just report it like that?

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Reading a post in another forum I frequent, someone made a good point. Why is it everything we do bad an "attrocity?" Whereas when the insurgents or whatnot do something horrible, it's only "retaliation?" Sounds like the media is playing it up for US to be the bad guys. I sometimes wonder whose side they are on. They're not reporting news, they're manufacturing opinions and propaganda. The truth is, they're all attrocities - why can't they just report it like that?

same reason its changed from a suicide bomber to a homicide bomber... I'm sure that the Kamikazi pilots would have been renamed into something else in today's PC propaganda machine.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
I'm sure that the Kamikazi pilots would have been renamed into something else in today's PC propaganda machine.

Homicide pilots....
I hate political correctness.... it changes the meaning of everything.

I mean aren't *most* bombers homicide bombers? I don't see the reason to call suicide bombers homicide bombers. Does suicide imply something bad on the part of the bomber? Or any so worse than homicide?

[Hanxter]

during world war II, korea, and not so much in viet nam, news articles and photos were severly censored for security reasons...

but now because the media believes we the people have a right to know only leads to irresponsible reporting in a lot of cases - putting others in jeopardy...

we are very naive believing what we see, read and hear - the media is manipulative adding the "color" to enhance their story...

the guy that blew the whistle may have been irresponsible in reporting the prison abuse to the wrong person...

the person that reported the prison abuse to the media may have been irresponsible...

the media may have been irresponsible in reporting the abuse to the public and not the government...

the government may have been irresponsible in not having the proper authorities managing the prison in the first place...

but when in rome do as the romans do

[Rlyss]

Originally posted by forseti-6
I mean aren't *most* bombers homicide bombers? I don't see the reason to call suicide bombers homicide bombers. Does suicide imply something bad on the part of the bomber? Or any so worse than homicide?

Many people prefer the term 'homicide bombers' to 'suicide bombers' not because it is a bombing with the unique aim of killing people, but because the term 'suicide bomber' clearly focuses on the death of the bomber him- or herself.

Instead of focusing on the death and destruction cause, 'suicide bomber' seems to focus on the one who did it, and ignore the damage. Lots of people think that's not where the focus should lie. I also tend to agree with it. Perhaps not with 'homicide bomber' but I do agree that using 'suicide bomber' does seem to focus on the person who commited the bombing.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by Dorito2
Many people prefer the term 'homicide bombers' to 'suicide bombers' not because it is a bombing with the unique aim of killing people, but because the term 'suicide bomber' clearly focuses on the death of the bomber him- or herself.

Instead of focusing on the death and destruction cause, 'suicide bomber' seems to focus on the one who did it, and ignore the damage. Lots of people think that's not where the focus should lie. I also tend to agree with it. Perhaps not with 'homicide bomber' but I do agree that using 'suicide bomber' does seem to focus on the person who commited the bombing.

sorry not for me, it implies quickly and easily that the bomber is DEAD gave up his/her life upon detination. Put the sentence together and it makes sense, just read the bit and you're right it doesn't. Headline reads Suicide Bomber Attacks Cafe, does not imply the focus is on him, the focus is on the bomb that exploded in the cafe. In fact, then it truly implies that there is no need to seek out someone else, unlike a car bomber etc, because in reality a car bomber is also a homicide bomber, the focus isn't that it was a car that killed people but the method of attack.

It's just like people to change the language into something silly. I do no DEPLANE to get off the plane, I don't PLANE to get one. I embark onto a plane. I disembark from the plane.

call a spade a spade and stop dumbing it down is what i say.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by Dorito2
Many people prefer the term 'homicide bombers' to 'suicide bombers' not because it is a bombing with the unique aim of killing people, but because the term 'suicide bomber' clearly focuses on the death of the bomber him- or herself.

Instead of focusing on the death and destruction cause, 'suicide bomber' seems to focus on the one who did it, and ignore the damage. Lots of people think that's not where the focus should lie. I also tend to agree with it. Perhaps not with 'homicide bomber' but I do agree that using 'suicide bomber' does seem to focus on the person who commited the bombing.

Thanks for the explanation, makes a little more sense now. I forget which network was using it, but they were using the term "suicide attackers." That seems to be the most descriptive term - accurately describing the nature of the bomber and also the intent.

[CrazySaturn]

Originally posted by Averett
And Switzerland was right there in the smack of things for WWI and WWII and did they get bothered? Nope. Cause they're neutral.

I can't even get my thoughts straight. So many people in so many countries hate us. Because they constatnly have American this and American that shoved down their throats. I'm not giving anyone an excuse.

And yes, I think that if we pulled our troops it would stop terroism.

1: Switzerland housed basically ALL of Germany's gold during WW2. Don't even think they were neutral. After the war, the swiss banks even downright refused to give any back to Jew's who had legal claim to it.

2: People don't get America shoved down their throats. People shove America down each other's throats. If they didn't want them there, nobody would have to work in the McDonalds and Coke and other manufacturing and chain stores worldwide, but they do.

3. We pull our troops out and stop terrorism? Cause it certainly seemed to work after our funding Al Qaeda during the fight against Russia in Afghanistan.

[noahfor]

Originally posted by CrazySaturn
3. We pull our troops out and stop terrorism? Cause it certainly seemed to work after our funding Al Qaeda during the fight against Russia in Afghanistan.

You can't deny that alot of the terrorism today is a reaction to the US's occupation of the middle east, so why wouldn't exiting the middle east end that terrorism? Terrorism in the past was not a reaction to the US being in Afghanistan, so exiting that country had nothing to do with avoiding terror. If we withdrew from the middle east completely, ended support of israel, and quit meddling in their affairs, I think that would probably cut down on acts directed at the US, but as long as there are stupid people there will be terror.

The problem is the whole holy land deal. The palestinians could just all move somewhere else. I'm sure the earth can accomodate them considering they are probably 1/10000 of the population, but no they want the holy land, and we could just invite the israeli's over here and give the palestinians back their shit, but who's gonna move here when they've got the holy land. Tell you the truth I wish I had a piece of that sweet holy land. I'm sure I think just like a spoiled little American.

[funbob]

I have read through the posts here, I have seen the video of Nick Berg. I have also come to a realization. These people need to be gone. The one thing that every American needs to realize is that Nick Berg is YOU. Given the chance, these cowardly motherfuckers would cut off your head. I thought that one of the worse things that I had ever seen was the events as they unfolded on 9/11…. was I wrong. The execution of this 26-year-old civilian made me realize that this is how these radical Islamic fundamentalists look at each and every one of us. This is what they would do to you, your mother, your father, your sister, anybody that means anything to you. Notice that I said “Radical Islam.”

So as you all pontificate about Saddam, WMD’s, how bad Bush is, whether or not we should be fighting this war, understand one thing, they are watching, reading, laughing, waiting and planning the next worst thing you will ever see. There is a big difference between our cause and theirs. We are looking for the next leaders of freedom in an oppressed country. They are looking for the next Nick Berg.

[Averett]

Originally posted by noahfor
You can't deny that alot of the terrorism today is a reaction to the US's occupation of the middle east, so why wouldn't exiting the middle east end that terrorism? Terrorism in the past was not a reaction to the US being in Afghanistan, so exiting that country had nothing to do with avoiding terror. If we withdrew from the middle east completely, ended support of israel, and quit meddling in their affairs, I think that would probably cut down on acts directed at the US, but as long as there are stupid people there will be terror.

Exactly. Thanks.

[ARTelevision]

As for the necessity of viewing the documantary evidence of the crime, the reasons are the same for the existence of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. and similar Holocaust Museums in many other countries.

To my mind, it is crucial that we comprehend the event in it's starkest terms.

...lest we forget.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
same reason its changed from a suicide bomber to a homicide bomber... I'm sure that the Kamikazi pilots would have been renamed into something else in today's PC propaganda machine.

Kamikazi is pretty PC already. I haven't been very diligent in my study of Japanese but I think it means, "divine wind." I'd be cool with that. They should have called them "Suicide nips" to truly be politically incorrect.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by funbob
I have read through the posts here, I have seen the video of Nick Berg. I have also come to a realization. These people need to be gone. The one thing that every American needs to realize is that Nick Berg is YOU. Given the chance, these cowardly motherfuckers would cut off your head. I thought that one of the worse things that I had ever seen was the events as they unfolded on 9/11…. was I wrong. The execution of this 26-year-old civilian made me realize that this is how these radical Islamic fundamentalists look at each and every one of us. This is what they would do to you, your mother, your father, your sister, anybody that means anything to you. Notice that I said “Radical Islam.”

So as you all pontificate about Saddam, WMD’s, how bad Bush is, whether or not we should be fighting this war, understand one thing, they are watching, reading, laughing, waiting and planning the next worst thing you will ever see. There is a big difference between our cause and theirs. We are looking for the next leaders of freedom in an oppressed country. They are looking for the next Nick Berg.

Originally posted by ARTelevision

...lest we forget.

that is correct. And everytime I look out my living room window and do NOT see the WTC Towers, I rememeber. I will NEVER forget.

[Averett]

Originally posted by ARTelevision
As for the necessity of viewing the documantary evidence of the crime, the reasons are the same for the existence of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. and similar Holocaust Museums in many other countries.

To my mind, it is crucial that we comprehend the event in it's starkest terms.

...lest we forget.

Just because I won't go to a Holocaust museam and because I won't look at this video doesn't mean that I can't understand or appreciate the magnitude. I just do not want to see these things. I don't need to be that upset about the images.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by Averett
Just because I won't go to a Holocaust museam and because I won't look at this video doesn't mean that I can't understand or appreciate the magnitude. I just do not want to see these things. I don't need to be that upset about the images.

I understand that. I refuse to watch the video. I think just hering about it is graphic enough. Truly gruesome.

[StephenSa]

I do believe this was a despicable act. I do feel for the victim's family and do not feel such an act was in anyway justified. I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by StephenSa
I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.

Well I'm assuming he was there for the same reason other civilian contractors are in Iraq - $$. The reality is, you go there and get paid a lot of money because it's dangerous. I still feel sympathy for his family, but you are right. He rolled the dice and lost out. I'm sure he knew the possibly consequences going in, just like everyone else though, he didn't think it could happen to him.

[noahfor]

I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.

Whoa. He is a human being, just because he did something stupid doesn't mean he should die. Lack of sympathy is what enables people to kill other people. People fly planse into buildings because they can't sympathize with people that allow their government, in essence an extension of their own will, to go into coutries and bomb civilians, take peoples home, with total disregard for the people of those countries, with total lack of sypathy. Yea, they find it hard to sypathize with people that let their government do that, so they fly planes into buildings and kill those people, because if sympathy goes than so does respect for a person's life. I really don't understand how you couldn't sympathize with anybody who is about to have his life ended by a bunch of morons in masks, and knows it.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by Averett
Just because I won't go to a Holocaust museam and because I won't look at this video doesn't mean that I can't understand or appreciate the magnitude. I just do not want to see these things. I don't need to be that upset about the images.

it doesn't... it brings it to a totally different level. the upsetness moves you more than the "thought" of it.

Originally posted by StephenSa
I do believe this was a despicable act. I do feel for the victim's family and do not feel such an act was in anyway justified. I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.

and it would have been someone else... that's part of the point of the whole terrorist thing.. it's not like if he didn't go it wouldn't have happened. It just wouldn't have happened to HIM, but it would have happened to someone else.

[Averett]

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
it doesn't... it brings it to a totally different level. the upsetness moves you more than the "thought" of it.

I guess I don't want to go to that level.

[funbob]

Originally posted by StephenSa
I do believe this was a despicable act. I do feel for the victim's family and do not feel such an act was in anyway justified. I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.

With all due respect, I have to say that you are way off here. I sippose that if everyone would have not gone to work on 9/11 they would still be alive, or perhaps if people had not been vacationing in Bali pehaps they would still be alive, or perhaps if the various Emabasy workers over the years had simply stayed home they would be alive as well?

Like I stated earlier, these people want all of us dead, they want you dead. They dont need a reason. I am not attacking you personaly, I just think that you need to think about it before you state the he kust should have stayed home. Isolationism is not the answer.

[kutulu]

First of all, I haven't seen the video and don't plan on seeing it. I've read enough descriptions to know what goes on.

Although it pisses me off that this happened to this guy, he willingly went to Iraq as an opportunist. He knew that something like this could have happened to him. I'm not saying that it makes it right, but he wasn't some dude at a shopping mall who was kidnapped and beheaded.

From a lot of what I've read (not just here, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone) and heard (mostly stupid talk radio garbage), Americans are trying to act like this makes the abuses we've dealt out during the war insignificant. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A lot of people were effected by the imagry and sounds of the video. Compare that video to the scenes of marketplaces that were hit by stray missiles. Several missiles that WE launched did not hit their intended target and hit very public places full of innocents (much more innocent than they man who was beheaded since they were just going about life in their homeland). I'm sure that if we had a camera there right afterwards the scene would be much worse. Sure in the beheading case it was one person singled out and knew he was about to die, and the public places hit were "unintentional" but we fired the missiles knowing that it could happen. The end results are similar.

People also commented about how sick it was that people cheered as the man's head was displayed. I'll counter by bringing up a vid that was posted on another thread (http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5365.htm) in this vid (it's not graphic but it does show an Iraqi soldier being murdered) there is an Iraqi soldier laying face down, either wounded, surrendering, or both. One of our soldiers just shoots him and kills him (from a very safe distance). After he does, the camera pans over and the other soliders are all cheering. What is the difference? So it's cowardly to decapitate a man while covering your face but it's courageous to kill an equally defenseless man from a safe distance.... Of course, I get it.

The Red Cross has been screaming about the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners since they got there. 25 Iraqi prisoners have died while in custody, currently there is no explanation. Suddenly, pics surface that confirm that we have been sexually and psychologically abusing prisoners and NOW we finally are taking actions to curb abuse? The pics have been in existence for several months. CBS sat on the pics till another news agency got them and was going to run with them and yet we're supposed to believe that our President and other senior officials had NO FUCKING IDEA any of this is happening? It seems more like we got caught with out pants down and are scrambling to make it seem like we give a fuck.

People want to villify the "bad guys" a and act like our hands our clean. Our hands are just as dirty. The difference is that the enemy celebrates it while we act like we're sorry only when we get caught playing the same games.

[ARTelevision]

Acording to any reasonable standard of what might constitute some degree of objectivity, stating "Our hands are just as dirty" is an indefensible and completely absurd exaggeration.

[bigoldalphamale]

Originally posted by noahfor
You can't deny that alot of the terrorism today is a reaction to the US's occupation of the middle east, so why wouldn't exiting the middle east end that terrorism? Terrorism in the past was not a reaction to the US being in Afghanistan, so exiting that country had nothing to do with avoiding terror. If we withdrew from the middle east completely, ended support of israel, and quit meddling in their affairs, I think that would probably cut down on acts directed at the US, but as long as there are stupid people there will be terror.

The problem is the whole holy land deal. The palestinians could just all move somewhere else. I'm sure the earth can accomodate them considering they are probably 1/10000 of the population, but no they want the holy land, and we could just invite the israeli's over here and give the palestinians back their shit, but who's gonna move here when they've got the holy land. Tell you the truth I wish I had a piece of that sweet holy land. I'm sure I think just like a spoiled little American.

i absolutely deny that US 'occupation' of iraq is a cause of terrorism. terrorism against the united states, as it pertains to the middle east, is founded on our support for the jewish state that proportedly fouls the muslim holy land. i said it several posts back...anti-US sentiment among arabs and islam has been with us since the late 40's and early 50's. long before the Bush's had anything to do with politics and events that shape the world we live in. we are fighting wars in the middle east now because we have precious few options remaining. our resolve has been tested and reversed on so many occasions (lebanon and somalia to name a few) that to back down from islamic militants now, could only strengthen thier own resolve to bring down western civilization and infect the world with thier bastardized form of islam which lost its place in this world when the date was still followed by B.C.

we/the US/ Bush is doing what he has to do...what no other country has the nerve or resolve to do...what needs to be done to demonstrate that the US will not tolerate treachorous, cowardly and murderous acts on democracies simple because they support the right for jews to maintain soveriegn control over land that they have battled for control over since ancient times.

i will reserve comment on the liberal statements that this video should not be viewed and that those who do view are sick and twisted. get on the bus called reality and shed your veil of ignorance...its a hard world...and one that is coming to our doorstep sooner than you think. open your eyes, form your opinion with the knowledge of how the real world works and what our enemies are capable of. get these warm fuzzy liberal visions of peace and a unified world of love and cute furry bunnies out of your head and into the garbage where they belong. and then get in line and stand behind the one man with the courage and power to protect us and our children from having our heads removed in the places where we sleep.

-once again...i'm out

[kutulu]

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Acording to any reasonable standard of what might constitute some degree of objectivity, stating "Our hands are just as dirty" is an indefensible and completely absurd exaggeration.

That's all you care to comment on?

[funbob]

bigoldalphamale hit it, and hit it hard. All aboard the reality bus.

[Averett]

Originally posted by bigoldalphamale
i will reserve comment on the liberal statements that this video should not be viewed and that those who do view are sick and twisted. get on the bus called reality and shed your veil of ignorance...its a hard world...and one that is coming to our doorstep sooner than you think. open your eyes, form your opinion with the knowledge of how the real world works and what our enemies are capable of. get these warm fuzzy liberal visions of peace and a unified world of love and cute furry bunnies out of your head and into the garbage where they belong. and then get in line and stand behind the one man with the courage and power to protect us and our children from having our heads removed in the places where we sleep.

I don't need to see this video or pictures of the Iraqi prisoners on leashes. I'm not ignorant. I KNOW what is going on out there. I just choose not to look at it.

I much prefer the furry little bunnies, thank you very much.

Who's that one man with the courage and power? Bush? I don't fucking think so. When he goes to Iraq and starts fighting, then I'll think he's couragous.

[kutulu]

I agree that to just get up and leave now would be a big mistake, but it doesn't make the war right. We never should have gone there in the first place and we'd be better off now if we hadn't gone into Iraq.

Bush and Co. have totally fucked this up. They should be removed from office.

[ARTelevision]

Yes, that's all I care to comment on.
The rest of your statements can stand or fall on their own merit.

[bigoldalphamale]

Originally posted by kutulu
That's all you care to comment on?

again, i defer to the cute and fuzzy bunny images that the liberal left and thier media cohorts pump into our living rooms every night. the real coverage of the war should make you want to lose your dinner every night. this is war, and for some reason, americans cant come to grips with the realities of it. people die...lots of people die. blood, guts, shit, entrails, burnt smoldering corpses of children held in thier equally blackened mother's embrace. but on sept 11th, it came home and it was real for a few days...there was no denying it then. a few years later, the denial has returned. the cute and fuzzy bunnies dominate the general public. those who know how this really needs to end know where the bomb needs to be dropped...Berkely, CA.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Acording to any reasonable standard of what might constitute some degree of objectivity, stating "Our hands are just as dirty" is an indefensible and completely absurd exaggeration.

correct. trying to excuse bad behavior by point out worse behavior is just childish if not asinine.

[Averett]

My fuzzy bunny plays chess.... How do you like that?

(sorry, it had to be done...)

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by bigoldalphamale
again, i defer to the cute and fuzzy bunny images that the liberal left and thier media cohorts pump into our living rooms every night. the real coverage of the war should make you want to lose your dinner every night. this is war, and for some reason, americans cant come to grips with the realities of it. people die...lots of people die. blood, guts, shit, entrails, burnt smoldering corpses of children held in thier equally blackened mother's embrace. but on sept 11th, it came home and it was real for a few days...there was no denying it then. a few years later, the denial has returned. the cute and fuzzy bunnies dominate the general public. those who know how this really needs to end know where the bomb needs to be dropped...Berkely, CA.

that's right.. well maybe not Berkely but someplace.. hey it happened in my home city once already. I don't get to look at the towers anymore.... except in pictures. The fuzzy bunnies and other softness of the liberals to me is just horrible and a disservice to those that died in the towers and those soldiers who have given their lives. They saw it with their own two eyes, why can't we? Are we better then they are? No.

this is from an entry I made in Art's journal

Art's right.

I went to an art exhibit in 2002 of a photographer that was downtown on 9/11.

WARNING VERY GRAPHIC!!!
Spoiler:
I saw the disembodied hands, puddles of flesh and entrails, bodies laying in the streets under a layer of ash, disfigured crumples of human beings.

I watched the beheading on the net last night. While it was gruesome it did give me more resolve again. It reminded me of 9/11 of the brutality that these opponents have. We fight a moral war, they fight to survive. The difference? We have a buy out point, they do not. If they give in, they don't survive.

The sanitization of the news media is disgusting. We can watch something be decapitated if it's Freddy or Jason because it's not real, but when its a soldier in a war, it's not allowed.

Even the fact that we cannot see caskets being brought home.

Our feelings for the war are being manipulated at an ever increasing pace. Each word, each image, viewed from many different angles to make sure that we are fed the correct message.

F that. I get my news and information from multiple sources, not just American made. Allow me the choice to decide for myself, not you Mother American Media.

I also think this is what is fueling our fascination with "reality" and live TV.

Like waiting for the crash at a car race, people are waiting to see the gore that cannot be filtered from live TV. They convince themselves that on a Reality TV show they may see something that isn't scripted or edited. They are just fooling themselves.

[Averett]

So basically what we need to do is sit in a chair like A Clockwork Orange and play a loop of a man getting his head cut off? Only then will we truly understand?

That's bullshit.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally posted by Averett
So basically what we need to do is sit in a chair like A Clockwork Orange and play a loop of a man getting his head cut off? Only then will we truly understand?

That's bullshit.

didn't imply that... i just said that it would galvanize you into solidly into whatever direction you are.

If you are a peace maker or warmonger, it may push you further into that and make you actually take action.

what kind of action? I don't know

for myself, I call up my representatives that tell them how I feel about this. I call Hillary's office at least once a month. I call Chuck Shumer's office too.
It made me get MORE involved in the democratic process.

[funbob]

Okay, I am out of here. I made my points, others have made theirs. Either you believe or you dont. You think this is a just war or you dont, you think that it is Americas fault or you think it is someone elses fault. This board, politicians, the media will not change your mind, your mind will only bend the way you lean. Just do me one favor, dont lean so far one way or the other that you fall on your ass and take someone else with you.