Iraqi Prisoner abuse
 

I can't believe what a setback these douchebags created for the United States! Whatever trust we were getting from some of the Iraqi's was just thrown out of the window. These idiots should be locked up for good! I don't care if they were serving our country! I also can't believe George W. hasn't held a press conference condemning what they did. He needs to save face for our country! Don't get me wrong, I totally support our troops, but this handful of idiots just made a total mockery of everything we stand for.
Sorry.... had to rant!

i heard reports that the pics werent real (or was it the brit's pics?)

Something about the wrong rifles and uniforms?


Or is that just more spin?

It was the Brit pics I believe that they are coming out and claiming as fake.

I hope they're fakes, and if they are, I apologize to the soldiers I called douchebags. I have the upmost respect for our armed forces.

No reason to apologize, doesn't excuse the actions of the Americans. Just mostly goes to show how badly some people want this war to fail, they will fabricate false information that will incite more violence and hatred.

Hmm, i put my trust in the american forces to do the right thing, but i won't stand for people badmouthing everyone for the actions of a few. I mean there are pussies in france, but does that make the whole country a bunch of pussy fairyies...

Oh wait yes it does huh, oh well too bad for the iraqi's i guess.

No...it doesnt just work like that.....most of the terrorists out there are fueled by a sentiment of hatred towards everything "American"......

Those pictures did nothing but fuel that hatred, the same hatred that carried out the 911 attacks....

I think it's quite safe to say that the pictures of the AMERICAN soldiers abusing the prisoners were not faked.

There are some concerns about "inanomolies" with the British pictures, but I think the truth will come out there soon.


Mr Mephisto

Former prisoners and a Reserve army Sgt. are both confirmation that those pictures (the American ones) are real.

Here are some of the photos

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com.../mdf555880.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com.../mdf555989.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/7/7f/...aibAbuse09.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/9/93/...aibAbuse10.jpg
(Someone please tell me what this says... I can't make it out)
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/4/44/...aibAbuse01.jpg
She seems obsessed with male genitals which is normally a good thing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/c/ca/...aibAbuse11.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/a/a4/...aibAbuse02.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/2/22/...aibAbuse04.jpg

Stanford Prison Experiment

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Stanford Prison Experiment was a landmark psychological study of the human response to captivity, in particular, to the real world circumstances of prison life. It was conducted in 1971 by Philip Zimbardo of Stanford University.

Subjects were randomly assigned to play the role of "prisoner" or "guard". Those assigned to play the role of guard were given sticks and sunglasses; those assigned to play the prisoner role were arrested by the Palo Alto police department, deloused, forced to wear chains and prison garments, and transported to the basement of the Stanford psychology department, which had been converted into a makeshift jail.

Several of the guards became progressively more sadistic - particularly at night when they thought the cameras were off, despite being picked by chance out of the same pool as the prisoners.

The experiment very quickly got out of hand. A riot broke out on day two. One prisoner developed a psychosomatic rash all over his body upon finding out that his "parole" had been turned down. After only 6 days (of a planned two weeks), the experiment was shut down, for fear that one of the prisoners would be seriously hurt.

Although the intent of the experiment was to examine captivity, its result has been used to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. It also used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of seniority/authority.

May I just comment on the dissenting side...

These Iraquis are our PRISONERS. That means that they have done something wrong that has forced us to incarcerate them. As long as we are not killing them or permantly injuring them, they are still ours.

Astrocloud made a very good point with the Stanford prison experiment. Anyone in power will excercise that power to the utmost extent, even if this means "abuse". Nonetheless, the term "abuse" should be used sparingly in the regards to criminals.

Lets face it, if they weren't fighting against us right now, they wouldn't have been in prison, now would they? And, on the other view of the subject, if we had just blown that little sand pit out of the ocean a year ago (like we rightly should have done), they certainly wouldn't have been in prison and wouldn't have been "abused".

With all due respect, what on EARTH are you talking about?

Did something wrong?

Yeah, they fought to defend their country, as ordered by their commanders, when the US Coalition invaded.

Sheesh... They are Prisoners of WAR, not criminals in the "felony" sense.

They are not "yours" at all.

Also, see the post below on over 25 deaths, including MURDER, of detainees in American custody.



I don't really know what to say to this. Have you ever heard of the LAW? The GENEVA CONVENTION?

I think you need to better understand the issues before making such silly sweeping statements.


Yeah, right. It's their fault for being born...


Mr Mephisto

REF: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3684381.stm


Mr Mephisto

Perhaps I haven't stated it here enough, but I have always been a big opponent of the Geneva Convention, and even the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) for that matter.

These are prisoners. They have been captured. They are the enemy. Period.

Yes, they are defending their country. They are still out enemies. I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive.

set aside any thoughs of geneva conventions and think pure realpolitik. this is bad bad news for the american PR with all countries, in particular iraq, no matter what the internationally agreed conventions are.

I can't believe you people complain about us abusing prisoners when they are the ones Ambushing our soldiers! They brought all of this on themselves, if they didnt ambush soldiers after the war or just gave up the information we want none of the Abuse would happen.

Face it, war is war, and its not meant to be pretty. If you think prisoner abuse is bad you would probably hate to see what war is really like, not the crap they show on TV.

Actually Mr. Hamill who just escaped it seems was taken care of pretty well, right down to surgery on his injured arm. Yes, there are Iraqi's who would torture our soldiers if they were prisoners, but only a handfull of idiot's like the handfull of idiot american MP's that tortured the Iraqi's. I will say it again, these idiots created a huge setback in us ever getting respect from the Iraqi people, not to mention the fact that this gives terrorists even more reason to hate us!

Nazis considered Jews to be their enemy.

Quote:

Yes, they are defending their country. They are still out enemies. I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive.

what they would do is irregardless, that doesn't make it right. WE are not above the law.

Even though this isn't Usenet, Godwin's Law apparently applies.

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms...win_s_Law.html

that doesn't reduce the validity of my statement

I'm still trying to figure out what is written on that prisoner... Also is that a naked breast next to him? This woman keeps pointing to the Iraqi's dicks and giving the thumbs up... Doesn't this strike anyone as just plain weird? I mean it's not even that evil -just fuckin weird. I mean is she pointing out the more well hung members of the Iraqi brigade?

I don't get it. I wish someone knew and could spell it out for me.

I think it says "RAPEIST", I can tell the part on the left is a butt, the part on the right looks kinda butt-like.

As far as the pointing, I think she is making a gun with her hands.

Its funny how its OK for Americans to do as they wish, but god forbid any other country even thinks about doing anything. Americans could torture and kill and its ok, but if an iraqi tortures and kills, death to them all. America could bomb any country they want, but if another country even thinks of such things they are the root of all evil. Some of you keep saying they are the enemy and that they brought it upon themselves. Last time I checked it was America who started the war. Do you expect the Iraqis to sit down and take bullets in the head. Of course they are going to fight back. But If Iraq invaded America, we should nuke the entire country and shoot every Iraqi we see, right?

Yea, these poor prisonors---the same ones that convince young kids that it the right thing to do when they strap a explosive vest on them and send them on a suicide mission..

The one interview in our paper stated that he had been in that prison 3 times--2 under Saddam, and one under our forces...and our torture was the worst, BECAUSE THEY MADE HIM GET NAKED....NOW i SAY IF WE CAN GET TO THOSE ASSHOLES BY MAKING THEM GET NAKED, WE SHOULD STEAL ALL OF THEIR DAMN NIGHT GOWNS THAT THEY RUN AROUND IN...

---war is hell, and this is nothing compared to it...

just imagine if it were american prisoners being abused by iraqi gaurds. all the people in this country who think its "cool" to abuse prisoners would be up in arms to blow the offending country off the map

this is the kind of shit that makes me ashamed to be an american....

You just don't get it! Because of this bad publicity, more of those people are going to be sending more of their young kids with explosive vests! It's bad enough that they hate us for no reason, now we're giving them more of a reason to hate us!

First: it's not okay for a few US soldiers to torture Iraqis in this method. Unquestionably wrong on their part. It's a stupid fucking thing for them to do, and they will pay dearly once military justice takes its toll on them.

Second: This is not all Americans, this is not some Americans, this isn't even a few Americans. This is just a very small number of morons who make the rest of the nation look bad, and who make the armed forces look bad.

Third: No one should be allowed to torture prisoners, though that's not going to stop it from happening. That said, that's why the Geneva convention is useful - it provides an international law stating very explicitly that such things shouldn't be done, providing a method of prosecution and punishment. Whether or not the Iraqis give a shit about it, the US does - and the US follows the Geneva convention.

Just because a country follows the Geneva convention doesn't mean that violations don't happen - it means that they're dealt with properly if they occur.

American torture of prisoners involved getting them naked and having a naughty brunette point at their dicks.

The Arab World finds this "deeply humiliating." And, of course, if you are an Arab, you know that if you are deeply humilated, it is cool to beat, burn, electrocute, execute and mutilate Western prisoners.

Its also cool to shoot little kids off a playground and blow up busses full of people trying to get to work. After all, you were deeply humiliated.

And let's not forget the other things that deeply humilate the Arab World -

1) Having foreigners anywhere near your holy sites (which number roughly 4,236,486 per desert acre last time I checked)
2) Women doing anything except being hidden from view
3) Beer
4) Saying or doing anything which may be interpreted as being even slightly insulting to any Arab person, nation, terrorist institution or (gasp) Islam

Hey, it was wrong to do that to the prioners. It was way stupid to take pictures. But give me a fucking break. The people who are howling the loudest about this don't have a moral leg to stand on.

^^ Here here

On one hand we may have violated the Geneva convention,
But on the other hand, you have to understand that the soldiers are just people. They are young men and women; they apparently didn't realize they represented our country when they did this.
I see it like a guy putting a banana between his legs and jumping around.

But those guys are all naked piled on one another. THAT IS SO NOT COOL.
You know that when too many guys get thrown into a police car it becomes a nightmare (like 4 just piled in double cuffed.) This is similar.

You know they fought against these men in a war. That leaves emotional scars.

So that includes the Secretary of Defense and the President of the United States?

Wierd, eh? They are howling pretty loud about it, but as clavus says, "they don't have a moral leg to stand on".


Sheesh...


Mr Mephisto

Um...

As far as I can tell, you seem to be suggesting that the 'Arabs' have some kind of special moral status which is racially or culturally related? wtf?

All these pictures represent are those that got caught - there are many other cases the gov't chooses not to reveal or disclouse. The only reason they are apolagetic right now is because the pictures got revealed, otherwise it would have been buisness as usual. War and human right abuses go hand in hand - it is inebidible. There were 25 prisoners killed in that facility alone. You really think that is just an isolated case? Most of those detained in the prison are innocent people just rounded up for no reason...civilians. What do you think happens at other detention facilities?

Americans troops are in Iraq under the guise of democracy and liberation. They were there to oust a dictator that posed no threat to Americans. Its funny how some pictures of humiliated prisoners gets so much media attention yet the thousands of innocent civilians (10, 000 - 20, 000) being killed by "precision guided weapons" barely gets a passing thought.

Do you really have to be living outside America to see how unjust and disgusting the country is or does the general American public really not care?

I fail to understand why some people here and elsewhere are taking this for more than it is, i.e. a reprehensible incident of abuse of prisoners by some guards.

Those guards (and their superiors if necessary) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and the situation examined to minimize the possibility of it happening again.

Likewise, the entire US military and nation should not be indicted because of it.

POW's are people. Soldiers are people. They should act like humans and be treated like humans. Punish the individuals that did the horrible acts and not the collection of people that wear the same uniform. The mistreatment of a POW is horrible regardless of what the POW did. The soldier in the field didn't do the things depicted, the medic in the mash didn't. It was a few low-lifes who thought it would be funny to do. I have a very positive view of our armed forces and I'm not going to let a few idiots change that.

Hmmm...I wonder how many people who claim that this was no big deal would scream for bloody murder if the Iraqi's captured female troops and pulled this kind of stunt? Yes imagine that, dozens of cute little Jessica Lynchs being stripped naked and forced to do whatever their captors want them to...no big deal right? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

For those who are deriding the Geneva convention, care to look up what the death rates for Russian POWs were in WW2 (whom did not sign the convention) compared American POWs? Yeah you sure as hell support the troops the way your care about how they might be treated if captured...the same way those asshats who thought it was really funny to do this to prisioners helped out their mates by taking photos that would inflame the insurgents, good job, no really we need more hatred against American Troops. We signed the convention because we believe in basic human dignity and rights, obviously some here don't...maybe they should try out for the opposite team since their ideology seem so similar

The fact that some here think this shit is ok and even justifiable is quite sad.

Nowhere do I see anyone saying this is ok yet some here claim that's what people are saying. I don't get it.

Trav
I think a lot of Americans do ignore the war. Largely because there is no draft, therefore only those that choose to be a part of the military are there. Not that they agree with what's happening or choose where they get stationed, but you get the idea. If there were still a draft, way more American's would be outraged at what Bush has done to our country because there would be far more of a chance that someone they know will be over there. As it stands, people are more insulated from it which keeps the Vietnam-like anti-war mentality from appearing as strongly. But if Bush gets re-elected, I truly fear for the future, because I know this situation will only get worse the longer he is at the helm.

The sad part is most of americans were so high up on ourselves that they didnt think "We" could do this to the Iraqis. We only believe that they do this sort of stuff. Ive heard the arguments that what the Iraqis did was much worse that what we are doing. Example of the hanging bodies from the bridge. I hate to say it, but I can guarantee that if the war was in America and we saw an Iraqi, Americans would do the same thing. Just think back to after 9-11 when all the hate crimes were being committed to middle eastern people. We are no different from anyone else in the world.

I have been avoiding this thread for a bit to see where it would go. I am disappointed a some of the repsonses, but that's just me. If Iraqi soldiers did this to American POWs, I would feel just as bad as if it were us doing it to them. Just because there are several thousand miles between us and our cultural values are vastly different, doesn't make it any better that one country is doing it to the other, and vice versa. War sucks as it is. These incidents just add fuel to the fire and anyone who thinks it is ok to torture, humiliate, and mistreat a POW needs to have their head examined. Just because some Iraqi's hung four contractors from a bridge after torturing, burning, and mutilating them, doesn't mean I want to see our troops stoop to that level. We are humans, not fucking animals. People living outside the U.S. and looking in, seem to have a view that Americans think they are better than the rest but we are not. We just have different values and a different belief system. Who is right? Who is wrong? If you think you are right just because you are an American, I suggest getting over yourself already. This is not directed at any TFPer.

All I'm saying is that if a group of people (i.e. Arab cultures) feel moraly justified in the torture and murder prisoners, and the intentional murder of innocents, then they should get a heaping helping of STFU when they complain that US troops are making prisoners embarassed.

In the last Gulf War, the Iraqis physically tortured and sexually assaulted male and female POW's. We didn't hear a peep from the Arab world about this.

That said, what the US soldiers did was wrong. But there is a tremendous lack of perspective going on here. Homophobic discomfort does not equal electrical shocks to the nutsack.

AND ANOTHER THING...if the reports of the US actually murdering prisoners is true, that is a whole different issue. That is wrong in the highest degree.

Shard - hypocrisy in the morning? there would be hypocrisy only if Iraq some how invaded America and did what is happening to them now and in Gulf War I to the US. Otherwise, they are the victims. Your what if scenario about the "cute little Jessica Lynch's" shows how the media and other propaganda machines have indoctirned you with fear, so much so that you try to make any excuses to justify American action. Speaking of Jessica Lynch, her injuries in combat where more than likey due to friendly fire from overhead planes. She wasn't even harmed by her captors. There are more than a few cases of reported rapes and other misconduct by American Troops on Iraqi females. You don't hear about it in the media at all because that would be "unpatriotic." Most of the troops in Iraq could have just as easily been working at your local fast food joint, they are not equppied to deal with a race or culture they no nothing about. I bet that you Shard would be more pissed off if someone spat in your Big Mac then if they mistreated these so called prisoners, most of which are detained for no reason.

this was shown a few months ago..

LINK:
war crime caught on CNN

Man, i seriously hope you're kidding.

So that justifies the US Soldiers...
Man!!! c'mmon, the US is always the first to raise voices against human rights violations, so don't come now and say "thay had it comming", 'cause that is playing double standards.

Could't agree more

Because of the muslim belief in modesty, making them strip down is more traumatic for their minds than actual torture. Men are allowed to bear their faces in public, but they still have a strong belief in covering up.

I just can't believe the non-reactions by some people here. Once the WMD issue went south, we played up the human rights violations because it was one of the only ways to justify the war. Now we have our own soldiers committing human rights violations and you people act like it's no big deal or that they had it coming to them.

If we want to be the world's police force and say what's right and what's wrong then we need to lead by example. Well the time to lead by example is here and Bush better make an example of these lowlifes and any superiors that were involved, no matter what rank. We need to be public with the proceedings so that the whole world will know that we don't put up with that shit.

If we tolerate this shit, what's it going to be like for our POWs?

BTW, these aren't the only alleged war crimes during the war. There were reports that we used napalm and cluster bombs also. I guess the Geneva Convention is only meant to apply to our enemies.

I started this thread not only because I was pissed, but I wanted to see how people would react. I'm happy to see that the tfp is full of not only patriotic, but humane law abiding people.

Unfortunately there will always be scumbags in the world, and even more unfortunate is that a few of those scumbags ended up serving in Iraq. The actions of those few should not reflect the rest of the United States, but I feel that's not how the Arab world will take it.

War crime? It looked like some Marines were finishing off a bastard who still had the means to kill them. Maybe he had a bomb vest under his clothing? Would you take the chance on it?

wow, bush supporters will allow anything. The guy is over 50 ft away lying on the ground bleeding to death. He was not activley threatening any of them. Using that lack of logic we should take no prisoners and exectute everyone on the battlefield.

It was murder, plain and simple.

timalkin - wow u really like grasping at straws. Those soldiers are suppose to be trained to recognize threat and there is clearly no threat there. Bomb vest? please tell me your joking?

I guess all those POW's should feel lucky that our soldiers didn't assume they had "bomb vests" on...

Damn straight.

Does the media of our "enemies" scandalize reports of their own soldiers killing, torturing, raping and dismembering US forces in their own countries? Do they think there's a problem when their countrymen commit horrible acts of hate, destruction, and murder abroad? I don't believe so, and can't imagine they ever would, at least I've never heard anything of the sort.

I have never heard of hostile cultures' newspapers and TV putting out pictures of their forces abusing their enemies, and the whole country getting in an uproar about it.

They basically really, really hate us, and I can't imagine there would be any media/social controversy over there if their forces slaughtered or abused any of us in the worst ways possible.

This is one of the reasons why I value our way of life. I may not always support the President or the war, but I very strongly believe that our way of life is as close to being good and true as it can be.


Many Americans are in uproar over these reports of abuse, and I think that's good, in a way. It may be because of misinformation or skewed values, who knows, but the fact that people are questioning it -- whether we're making sure we are doing the right thing -- I think that's very valuable.

In this case, the critics are trying to make sure our armed forces are doing the right thing, and if it's anything less than that, then they (and *we*) are to be held responsible. I don't think that's too common among our adversaries.

Anyone follow me?

The Iraquis wouldn't think twice about doing humiliating things to our men as their prisoners. In a sense those guards aren't doing anything that the other side wouldn't do.

BUT --- and I mean a big BUT ---

We should be above that kind of behavior. Just because someone is a jerk or bully doesn't mean you bully back. You show some integrity and pride in yourself not to lower yourself to their level. No matter you what you should do what you would want done to you whether they would do it or not. If we just lower the bar everytime someone else does something low then eventually we are behaving no better than rabid animals.

I hope the guards are dealt with fairly and properly. They obviously have some emotional/psychological problems, probably exacerbated by the experience of war. What they did was low and it should not happen again.

Its sad and disgusting what a couple of bad apples in our military did. Whats equally disturbing is what people make of this. The idea that this represents America or our military as a whole is ridiculous. This behavior should have never been entertained for a moment and those responsible will be punished, but the world's "shock" to these few photos seems to lack credibility when they didn't seem so "shocked" at the abuses of Hussein. Pile up a mass grave next to a pile of naked Iraqi soldiers and the two don't seem to draw comparison. But google "Iraq mass graves" and "Iraq prisoner abuse" and you'll see some strange math in media coverage. The soldiers that participated in this disgusting behavior will find themselves at the bottom of that humiliating pile when this is over.

No, I live in America and couldnt agree with you more. Most people think that the actions of these few US soldiers should not reflect your opinion of the US military as a whole. But like you said it is not just those select few, it is a shit load more. Ive talked to plenty of US soldiers, and the stories I hear make me sick. Im sure a majority of the soldiers in Iraq right now are sick fucks who get off on murdering and humilating their "enemy". This doesnt just go for the US, it goes for all military forces around the world. It just ridiculous that the general public is blind to the fact that these guys are not all angels, they just havent been caught, and if they have, your not going to hear about it.

Whether this sounds like im a tree hugging hippy or not, the simple fact is that war is stupid, and is absolutely not the answer to anything. It is sad that we as humans since the beginning of time have been killing eachother for nothing. Whats even more sad, is that soldiers are considered brave and are praised with medals for being murderers. Who would have ever thought a murderer would be showered with medals and awards for their so called "heroism and bravery". I guess being equipped with top weapons and blowing people up with them makes you a hero. Sick world we live in.

I'm stunned by the post above. It might be one of the most ignorant and off base posts I have ever read. Not to mention you give no credible sources or evidence to back up any of your claims.

Fact is War solves a lot of shit. And whats even scarier, war, conflict in general is part of our nature, it's part of humanity.

Another rude comment removed and warning sent All evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing, its obvious that is what you are all about. Not every woe can be conquered with a hug and a kiss, sometimes people need a swift kick in the ass. Just count your blessings you live in a world that doesn't realize that.

I don't know how many soldiers you spoke to in order to reach this conclusion. I've interacted with dozens who were volunteering their time to help my charity. I've spent some time carrying a rifle with a few hundred more. Even when I was being taught how to shoot, I was instructed that nobody hates war more than a soldier. Some of my best friends still serve. My father served. One of the kindest, gentlest people I know is a SEAL.

Based on the conversations and actions of the people mentioned above, I disagree with you 100%. And while most of the people mentioned above would also disagree with your opinion, they are all willing to die defending your right to say it.

Consider that.

I read through the document from The Smoking Gun, available here. From what I can tell, it looks like a few people (the direct chain of command from the Brigadier General to some of her Lieutenant Colonels, the direct commanders of the Military Police platoon responsible for these abuses, were lacking in good judgement.

However, a good number of people (whom the investigator notes) refused to participate in the abuses. That speaks volumes.

Yes, this is a bad thing that a few dumbass soldiers decided to harass Iraqis. It wasn't a nice thing, and we can all agree on that. Whether or not they "had it coming" either, that's debateable. However, the important thing is that the United States is one of the leading nations of the world and we should hold ourselves to higher moral standards, no matter how much shit the Iraqis may do to our soldiers that are POWs.

So the Arab news stations don't bother reporting about how their suicide bombers killed a bunch of Israeli children or how they spent all night torturing and raping a 19 year old female soldier they captured. Do you really expect them to? Of course not. But we can't give them material that they will broadcast - like the harassment of Iraqi POWs.

And as to slvrnblck's comments - I'm not even going to bother responding for fear of starting to foam at the mouth - and I love this board too much to risk getting banned over such ignorance.

Explain that to me. They are defending my right to state my opinion by fighting in Iraq? How is this. Iraq was not a threat to my freedom of speech before the war started. Maybe I just havent met a nice murderer yet. Anyway you put it , whether they are gentle or not, they are murderers, and im sure they will eventually pay for it. Im sick of people saying they are fighting for us. Bullshit. The country would have been fine without this war.

You spent time carrying a rifle with a few hundred soldiers? So you have fought? If so, how do you feel about taking someones life? Does it give you pleasure? Do you worry about burning in hell?

Why am I ignorant? Is it because I dont respect soldiers who murder innocent men,women and children.

do you honestly believe that everyone of our troops over there is a sociopath looking to kill people? if you do then we really need to talk.

Any American soldier or Iraqi civilian that dies in Iraq is not dying for your freedom of speech or any of that other bullshit propaganda. They are there under false pretenses and killing people who would noramlly be alive under the rule of Saddam. Where was the sympathy for the plight of Iraqi's during the UN sanctions? With all the media censorship going on in America and corporate scandals, do u really think America is a shinning example of freedom and democracy. It's ironic how the US - a country with a failed democracy is trying to force democracy on to another country (no matter how many innocent people die). It's even funnier how the current intense battles raging in Fallujah and Najaf started when American's decided to shut down a newspaper because they did not agree with the message. Theres a few media outlets run by the US where the staffers are quiting because of strict editorial controls put in place by the US.

Mojo_PeiPei - the problem with the world is that people like u exist. If people like you keep thinking that war is necessary and part of human nature then thats how the cycle of violence gets perpetuated. I feel sorry for what kids you have or may have if you propagate this mentality on to them.

Im sure not all are "sociopaths" looking to kill people. But I think its a safe bet to say that most are, but like I said, either way you put it, these people have a choice, a choice to kill or not to kill, and they choose to kill, therefore in my opinion they are not good people.

Wars are by definition hellish affairs in which we see the depth of human character, the best and the worst are brought out in people- disregarding anything else, this incident has cost the U.S. the moral high ground it once could at least tenuously claim- in addition, it effectively justifies (in their minds at least) any action the local militants want to take against our soldiers- in short it is a tragic event, as it will almost certainly make life harder for our troops and get at least a few more of them killed-

In responce to the above comment, I recently heard a quote, I belive that it was from ghandi, a confirmed man of peace- stating that non violence as a form of protest only works against people who can be shamed- in other words, as long as there is one savage person in the world then soldiers and weapons and guns and all the bad that comes with them are nescessary- non violence requires rules and negotiation requires that BOTH parties are willing to talk- if they are not- then the guy with the gun is going to ruin the entire day for everyone else- So I would prefer that we have soldiers and police, and I will for one keep my AK-47 , because while I am a resonable man, that does not guarantee everyone else will be.....

LINK:

CLICK FOR NEW PICTURES

I really have to laugh at some of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread. Broad stereotyping and outrageous accusations with no basis seem rampant from several members. I wish it surprised me but it doesn't.

Yes, you should be ashamed... (who are we talking about)?

Would just joining the military make someone a sociopath? For a lot of people, it's their last option, looking to get out of a dead end job or town (for example, I know someone who was a rancher's son in Montana who joined up to get out of there). If you think just joining the military makes someone a sociopath, you have a very distorted and inaccurate view of the military.

With the exception of the Marines, where every Marine is a rifleman first, a lot of the branches don't give their personnel a lot of weapons training - and a lot of people don't touch guns at all while in the military, they repair computers, planes, cook meals, act as Air Traffic Controllers, etc.

Also, soldiers aren't really given a choice about going to Iraq and fighting - deserting is not an option, and if you are given an order, you obey it. So I hardly think that being ordered "Go liberate Iraq from Sadaam Hussein" makes every (or most) soldier a psychopath.

Not all who have served in the military have killed.

All would be willing to die to protect your freedoms, including the freedom to spout nonsense without the use of apostrophes.

I've seen death from both sides. I don't fear Hell.

my brother spent nine months over there as a Navy Corpsmen, he was there to save lives, ours and theirs, i have pics of him patching up up Iraqis who got shot trying to bust through a checkpoint.

I take offense at this statement. I have 4 family members who have been or are soldiers and 2 of which are still currently serving. I have several friends who have served and some still are serving. None of these men and women whom I know are there for the sole purpose of killing. The believe that as a world power it is part of the United States duty to help protect the weak. Iraq is notorious for being cruel and abusive toward the weaker of the world and of their own nation.

Not all of those friends who I know who are serving truely approve of the United States reasons for this current war. They did not know they were going to be thrust into a situation that they didn't totally agree with either but they have the honor to at least go through with what they agreed to.

Not one of these men and women whom I know who serve our country are Sociopaths. Do you even have a psychology degree to make such a declaration.

I'm not disgreeing that those who abuse the prisoners don't have some psychological and emotional problems and need to be dealt with instead of allowed to continue. Their actions do not speak for the entirety of our armed forces let alone a large portion even.

Please refrain from making negative generalizations.

The country would have been fine without the war? You mean, to continue to let Saddam Hussein stay in power would have been a good thing? There is no doubt in my mind that he needed to be pulled from power. Do you think the war on terrorism would have just stopped after 9/11? Do you think Saddam would have woke up one day and decided to be a good leader and give money back to his people, stop trading arms for oil from other Middle East countries, building up his arsenal, torturing and raping his own people? I don't think so.

We have war because it is a necessity of human life. We make do with what we have because without our armed forces, our country would be an easy target for dictators and tyrants whose narrow minded view of the world makes them think their race and religion should be the ultimate influence in the rest of the world. Our soldiers not only protect our country from these evil doers, but they protect the very essence of every right you hold as a U.S. citizen. If you feel you can still have these rights without the influence of our military, you have a very narrow minded view of not only our society, but the societies of who we are at war with.

I do not agree that the atrocities by U.S. soldiers is in any way justifiable, but to group all military personnel into one, as you put it, "whether they are gentle or not, they are murderers", shows a limited knowledge of what our country would be like without them.

My God people.....mellow out.


We are at War, Like it or lump it.
War creates violence, and people die.
War creates stresses beyond human endurance, and people break.
War is not a clean little affair, and is full of atrocities.
Iraqis have murdered Americans.
Americans have murdered Iraqis.
Both sides have made mistakes, and will make more.
Torture is unacceptable, but that wont stop it.
We will all Bitch about the entire thing, long after it is over.
The actions of a few, do not reflect the attiude of the whole.
On either side.

One thing to remember- We INVADED Iraq , most likely on what will be percieved as false pretences. They will be pissed, just as we would be. It will do nobody justice or be of any help to make matters worse by acting below civilized standards, but we will anyway, because.........That is war.

I love it...

The phrase 'mellow out' followed by some of the most brutal depressing truths of humanity's twisted little existence...

:P

Anyways, we should all go watch Apocalypse Now, Francis Ford Coppola eases the pain...

You have got to be kidding me. First of all, Saddam was not a threat to the US at all. Bush is just trying to finish what his daddy could not. What on Earth did Saddam have to do with Sep 11 to begin with - absolutely nothing.
By your logic, it would have been OK for Saddam to attack America because he thinks Bush is evil and he doesnt like him, but if that happened you would have a totally different view on everything.

And what about this "arsenal" you are talking about, is this the same arsenal that we did not find, but were sure he had?

As for the so called war on terror, it will never be stopped, no matter how many wars you have, no matter how many people you eliminate, terrorism will not be stopped, you will always have nut jobs blowing themselves up. Besides, what right of Americas is it to go around to other countries and do whatever they please. Bush is no less of a evil dictator than Saddam was, they are both murderers who hopefully will be punished for what they have done.

As for your comment about the war being a necissity of human life, it is not even worth responding to as you and most everyone else on this board with the exeption of a few have been brainwashed by the American Govt.

First off, I do not need a psychology degree to make a statement like that. Anybody who has the power to pick up a gun and murder innocent people, or for that matter, anybody at all, without a second thought is not mentally stable.

You say Iraq is cruel toward the weaker of the world? I thought America was the nation always attacking the weaker country. Iraq being one of them. Besides, do you truly think we are in Iraq to help them, if you do, you are blind just like everyone else. If the case was to give the Iraqis freedom, why dont we go into all these other countries that have a evil dictator and no freedom and help them?

Once again, you say some of these soldiers dont agree with what they are in Iraq for, but fight anyway. This does not make them heroes, it makes them cowards for being afraid to disagree and say they will not fight, no matter what the circumstance or punishment would be. You can say what you like, but it doesnt change the facts. Thou shalt not kill.

I said it before and I will say it again, they do have a choice, they had a choice not to join the military. It doesnt matter if they are in a dead end job or they hate where they are, whatever the case may be, they knew what they were getting into. These "heroes" knew that they could go to war and kill people, but that did not stop them. So dont give me the bullshit execuses.

Well, it's official. The thread has degenrated to the point of personal attacks. This is why I generally stay away from the politics.

And if anyone else is in the mood to jump to conclusions about me - I've not killed another human, though I have seen people die. And I was in a situation that should have killed me. For some reason, I was saved...maybe my purpose here on Earth is to point out the need for apostrophes in possessives and contractions. Maybe my purpose to to mock the self-righteous who wish ill on others.

I agree. Political threads, with a few exceptions, tend to be multiple sides spitting out the same arguments again and again, because no one is willing to change their point of view. And when people get sick of seeing the same thing, they start attacking each other.

I think it's safe to say that this thread is better left dead.