Redgirl

Trav
I think a lot of Americans do ignore the war. Largely because there is no draft, therefore only those that choose to be a part of the military are there. Not that they agree with what's happening or choose where they get stationed, but you get the idea. If there were still a draft, way more American's would be outraged at what Bush has done to our country because there would be far more of a chance that someone they know will be over there. As it stands, people are more insulated from it which keeps the Vietnam-like anti-war mentality from appearing as strongly. But if Bush gets re-elected, I truly fear for the future, because I know this situation will only get worse the longer he is at the helm.

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Thought for the day: Men are like fine wine. They start out as grapes, and it's up to the women to stomp the crap out of them until they turn into something acceptable to have dinner with.

Wayngo

The sad part is most of americans were so high up on ourselves that they didnt think "We" could do this to the Iraqis. We only believe that they do this sort of stuff. Ive heard the arguments that what the Iraqis did was much worse that what we are doing. Example of the hanging bodies from the bridge. I hate to say it, but I can guarantee that if the war was in America and we saw an Iraqi, Americans would do the same thing. Just think back to after 9-11 when all the hate crimes were being committed to middle eastern people. We are no different from anyone else in the world.

water_boy1999

I have been avoiding this thread for a bit to see where it would go. I am disappointed a some of the repsonses, but that's just me. If Iraqi soldiers did this to American POWs, I would feel just as bad as if it were us doing it to them. Just because there are several thousand miles between us and our cultural values are vastly different, doesn't make it any better that one country is doing it to the other, and vice versa. War sucks as it is. These incidents just add fuel to the fire and anyone who thinks it is ok to torture, humiliate, and mistreat a POW needs to have their head examined. Just because some Iraqi's hung four contractors from a bridge after torturing, burning, and mutilating them, doesn't mean I want to see our troops stoop to that level. We are humans, not fucking animals. People living outside the U.S. and looking in, seem to have a view that Americans think they are better than the rest but we are not. We just have different values and a different belief system. Who is right? Who is wrong? If you think you are right just because you are an American, I suggest getting over yourself already. This is not directed at any TFPer.

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-Homer Simpson

clavus

All I'm saying is that if a group of people (i.e. Arab cultures) feel moraly justified in the torture and murder prisoners, and the intentional murder of innocents, then they should get a heaping helping of STFU when they complain that US troops are making prisoners embarassed.

In the last Gulf War, the Iraqis physically tortured and sexually assaulted male and female POW's. We didn't hear a peep from the Arab world about this.

That said, what the US soldiers did was wrong. But there is a tremendous lack of perspective going on here. Homophobic discomfort does not equal electrical shocks to the nutsack.

AND ANOTHER THING...if the reports of the US actually murdering prisoners is true, that is a whole different issue. That is wrong in the highest degree.

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Shard

trav

Shard - hypocrisy in the morning? there would be hypocrisy only if Iraq some how invaded America and did what is happening to them now and in Gulf War I to the US. Otherwise, they are the victims. Your what if scenario about the "cute little Jessica Lynch's" shows how the media and other propaganda machines have indoctirned you with fear, so much so that you try to make any excuses to justify American action. Speaking of Jessica Lynch, her injuries in combat where more than likey due to friendly fire from overhead planes. She wasn't even harmed by her captors. There are more than a few cases of reported rapes and other misconduct by American Troops on Iraqi females. You don't hear about it in the media at all because that would be "unpatriotic." Most of the troops in Iraq could have just as easily been working at your local fast food joint, they are not equppied to deal with a race or culture they no nothing about. I bet that you Shard would be more pissed off if someone spat in your Big Mac then if they mistreated these so called prisoners, most of which are detained for no reason.

trav

this was shown a few months ago..

LINK:
war crime caught on CNN

ironman

Man, i seriously hope you're kidding.

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If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

ironman

So that justifies the US Soldiers...
Man!!! c'mmon, the US is always the first to raise voices against human rights violations, so don't come now and say "thay had it comming", 'cause that is playing double standards.

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ironman

Could't agree more

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If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

braindamage351

Because of the muslim belief in modesty, making them strip down is more traumatic for their minds than actual torture. Men are allowed to bear their faces in public, but they still have a strong belief in covering up.

kutulu

I just can't believe the non-reactions by some people here. Once the WMD issue went south, we played up the human rights violations because it was one of the only ways to justify the war. Now we have our own soldiers committing human rights violations and you people act like it's no big deal or that they had it coming to them.

If we want to be the world's police force and say what's right and what's wrong then we need to lead by example. Well the time to lead by example is here and Bush better make an example of these lowlifes and any superiors that were involved, no matter what rank. We need to be public with the proceedings so that the whole world will know that we don't put up with that shit.

If we tolerate this shit, what's it going to be like for our POWs?

BTW, these aren't the only alleged war crimes during the war. There were reports that we used napalm and cluster bombs also. I guess the Geneva Convention is only meant to apply to our enemies.

perripken

I started this thread not only because I was pissed, but I wanted to see how people would react. I'm happy to see that the tfp is full of not only patriotic, but humane law abiding people.

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crony

Unfortunately there will always be scumbags in the world, and even more unfortunate is that a few of those scumbags ended up serving in Iraq. The actions of those few should not reflect the rest of the United States, but I feel that's not how the Arab world will take it.

timalkin

War crime? It looked like some Marines were finishing off a bastard who still had the means to kill them. Maybe he had a bomb vest under his clothing? Would you take the chance on it?

kutulu

wow, bush supporters will allow anything. The guy is over 50 ft away lying on the ground bleeding to death. He was not activley threatening any of them. Using that lack of logic we should take no prisoners and exectute everyone on the battlefield.

It was murder, plain and simple.

trav

timalkin - wow u really like grasping at straws. Those soldiers are suppose to be trained to recognize threat and there is clearly no threat there. Bomb vest? please tell me your joking?

kutulu

I guess all those POW's should feel lucky that our soldiers didn't assume they had "bomb vests" on...

Fearless_Hyena

Damn straight.

Does the media of our "enemies" scandalize reports of their own soldiers killing, torturing, raping and dismembering US forces in their own countries? Do they think there's a problem when their countrymen commit horrible acts of hate, destruction, and murder abroad? I don't believe so, and can't imagine they ever would, at least I've never heard anything of the sort.

I have never heard of hostile cultures' newspapers and TV putting out pictures of their forces abusing their enemies, and the whole country getting in an uproar about it.

They basically really, really hate us, and I can't imagine there would be any media/social controversy over there if their forces slaughtered or abused any of us in the worst ways possible.

This is one of the reasons why I value our way of life. I may not always support the President or the war, but I very strongly believe that our way of life is as close to being good and true as it can be.


Many Americans are in uproar over these reports of abuse, and I think that's good, in a way. It may be because of misinformation or skewed values, who knows, but the fact that people are questioning it -- whether we're making sure we are doing the right thing -- I think that's very valuable.

In this case, the critics are trying to make sure our armed forces are doing the right thing, and if it's anything less than that, then they (and *we*) are to be held responsible. I don't think that's too common among our adversaries.

Anyone follow me?

raeanna74

The Iraquis wouldn't think twice about doing humiliating things to our men as their prisoners. In a sense those guards aren't doing anything that the other side wouldn't do.

BUT --- and I mean a big BUT ---

We should be above that kind of behavior. Just because someone is a jerk or bully doesn't mean you bully back. You show some integrity and pride in yourself not to lower yourself to their level. No matter you what you should do what you would want done to you whether they would do it or not. If we just lower the bar everytime someone else does something low then eventually we are behaving no better than rabid animals.

I hope the guards are dealt with fairly and properly. They obviously have some emotional/psychological problems, probably exacerbated by the experience of war. What they did was low and it should not happen again.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Conclamo Ludus

Its sad and disgusting what a couple of bad apples in our military did. Whats equally disturbing is what people make of this. The idea that this represents America or our military as a whole is ridiculous. This behavior should have never been entertained for a moment and those responsible will be punished, but the world's "shock" to these few photos seems to lack credibility when they didn't seem so "shocked" at the abuses of Hussein. Pile up a mass grave next to a pile of naked Iraqi soldiers and the two don't seem to draw comparison. But google "Iraq mass graves" and "Iraq prisoner abuse" and you'll see some strange math in media coverage. The soldiers that participated in this disgusting behavior will find themselves at the bottom of that humiliating pile when this is over.

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Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
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slvrnblck

No, I live in America and couldnt agree with you more. Most people think that the actions of these few US soldiers should not reflect your opinion of the US military as a whole. But like you said it is not just those select few, it is a shit load more. Ive talked to plenty of US soldiers, and the stories I hear make me sick. Im sure a majority of the soldiers in Iraq right now are sick fucks who get off on murdering and humilating their "enemy". This doesnt just go for the US, it goes for all military forces around the world. It just ridiculous that the general public is blind to the fact that these guys are not all angels, they just havent been caught, and if they have, your not going to hear about it.

Whether this sounds like im a tree hugging hippy or not, the simple fact is that war is stupid, and is absolutely not the answer to anything. It is sad that we as humans since the beginning of time have been killing eachother for nothing. Whats even more sad, is that soldiers are considered brave and are praised with medals for being murderers. Who would have ever thought a murderer would be showered with medals and awards for their so called "heroism and bravery". I guess being equipped with top weapons and blowing people up with them makes you a hero. Sick world we live in.

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm stunned by the post above. It might be one of the most ignorant and off base posts I have ever read. Not to mention you give no credible sources or evidence to back up any of your claims.

Fact is War solves a lot of shit. And whats even scarier, war, conflict in general is part of our nature, it's part of humanity.

Another rude comment removed and warning sent All evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing, its obvious that is what you are all about. Not every woe can be conquered with a hug and a kiss, sometimes people need a swift kick in the ass. Just count your blessings you live in a world that doesn't realize that.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

clavus

I don't know how many soldiers you spoke to in order to reach this conclusion. I've interacted with dozens who were volunteering their time to help my charity. I've spent some time carrying a rifle with a few hundred more. Even when I was being taught how to shoot, I was instructed that nobody hates war more than a soldier. Some of my best friends still serve. My father served. One of the kindest, gentlest people I know is a SEAL.

Based on the conversations and actions of the people mentioned above, I disagree with you 100%. And while most of the people mentioned above would also disagree with your opinion, they are all willing to die defending your right to say it.

Consider that.

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Pragma

I read through the document from The Smoking Gun, available here. From what I can tell, it looks like a few people (the direct chain of command from the Brigadier General to some of her Lieutenant Colonels, the direct commanders of the Military Police platoon responsible for these abuses, were lacking in good judgement.

However, a good number of people (whom the investigator notes) refused to participate in the abuses. That speaks volumes.

Yes, this is a bad thing that a few dumbass soldiers decided to harass Iraqis. It wasn't a nice thing, and we can all agree on that. Whether or not they "had it coming" either, that's debateable. However, the important thing is that the United States is one of the leading nations of the world and we should hold ourselves to higher moral standards, no matter how much shit the Iraqis may do to our soldiers that are POWs.

So the Arab news stations don't bother reporting about how their suicide bombers killed a bunch of Israeli children or how they spent all night torturing and raping a 19 year old female soldier they captured. Do you really expect them to? Of course not. But we can't give them material that they will broadcast - like the harassment of Iraqi POWs.

And as to slvrnblck's comments - I'm not even going to bother responding for fear of starting to foam at the mouth - and I love this board too much to risk getting banned over such ignorance.

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slvrnblck

Explain that to me. They are defending my right to state my opinion by fighting in Iraq? How is this. Iraq was not a threat to my freedom of speech before the war started. Maybe I just havent met a nice murderer yet. Anyway you put it , whether they are gentle or not, they are murderers, and im sure they will eventually pay for it. Im sick of people saying they are fighting for us. Bullshit. The country would have been fine without this war.

You spent time carrying a rifle with a few hundred soldiers? So you have fought? If so, how do you feel about taking someones life? Does it give you pleasure? Do you worry about burning in hell?

slvrnblck

Why am I ignorant? Is it because I dont respect soldiers who murder innocent men,women and children.

moonstrucksoul

do you honestly believe that everyone of our troops over there is a sociopath looking to kill people? if you do then we really need to talk.

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trav

Any American soldier or Iraqi civilian that dies in Iraq is not dying for your freedom of speech or any of that other bullshit propaganda. They are there under false pretenses and killing people who would noramlly be alive under the rule of Saddam. Where was the sympathy for the plight of Iraqi's during the UN sanctions? With all the media censorship going on in America and corporate scandals, do u really think America is a shinning example of freedom and democracy. It's ironic how the US - a country with a failed democracy is trying to force democracy on to another country (no matter how many innocent people die). It's even funnier how the current intense battles raging in Fallujah and Najaf started when American's decided to shut down a newspaper because they did not agree with the message. Theres a few media outlets run by the US where the staffers are quiting because of strict editorial controls put in place by the US.

Mojo_PeiPei - the problem with the world is that people like u exist. If people like you keep thinking that war is necessary and part of human nature then thats how the cycle of violence gets perpetuated. I feel sorry for what kids you have or may have if you propagate this mentality on to them.

slvrnblck

Im sure not all are "sociopaths" looking to kill people. But I think its a safe bet to say that most are, but like I said, either way you put it, these people have a choice, a choice to kill or not to kill, and they choose to kill, therefore in my opinion they are not good people.

slvrnblck

Fire

Wars are by definition hellish affairs in which we see the depth of human character, the best and the worst are brought out in people- disregarding anything else, this incident has cost the U.S. the moral high ground it once could at least tenuously claim- in addition, it effectively justifies (in their minds at least) any action the local militants want to take against our soldiers- in short it is a tragic event, as it will almost certainly make life harder for our troops and get at least a few more of them killed-

In responce to the above comment, I recently heard a quote, I belive that it was from ghandi, a confirmed man of peace- stating that non violence as a form of protest only works against people who can be shamed- in other words, as long as there is one savage person in the world then soldiers and weapons and guns and all the bad that comes with them are nescessary- non violence requires rules and negotiation requires that BOTH parties are willing to talk- if they are not- then the guy with the gun is going to ruin the entire day for everyone else- So I would prefer that we have soldiers and police, and I will for one keep my AK-47 , because while I am a resonable man, that does not guarantee everyone else will be.....

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trav

LINK:

CLICK FOR NEW PICTURES

onetime2

I really have to laugh at some of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread. Broad stereotyping and outrageous accusations with no basis seem rampant from several members. I wish it surprised me but it doesn't.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Astrocloud

Yes, you should be ashamed... (who are we talking about)?

Pragma

Would just joining the military make someone a sociopath? For a lot of people, it's their last option, looking to get out of a dead end job or town (for example, I know someone who was a rancher's son in Montana who joined up to get out of there). If you think just joining the military makes someone a sociopath, you have a very distorted and inaccurate view of the military.

With the exception of the Marines, where every Marine is a rifleman first, a lot of the branches don't give their personnel a lot of weapons training - and a lot of people don't touch guns at all while in the military, they repair computers, planes, cook meals, act as Air Traffic Controllers, etc.

Also, soldiers aren't really given a choice about going to Iraq and fighting - deserting is not an option, and if you are given an order, you obey it. So I hardly think that being ordered "Go liberate Iraq from Sadaam Hussein" makes every (or most) soldier a psychopath.

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clavus

Not all who have served in the military have killed.

All would be willing to die to protect your freedoms, including the freedom to spout nonsense without the use of apostrophes.

I've seen death from both sides. I don't fear Hell.

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moonstrucksoul

my brother spent nine months over there as a Navy Corpsmen, he was there to save lives, ours and theirs, i have pics of him patching up up Iraqis who got shot trying to bust through a checkpoint.

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raeanna74

I take offense at this statement. I have 4 family members who have been or are soldiers and 2 of which are still currently serving. I have several friends who have served and some still are serving. None of these men and women whom I know are there for the sole purpose of killing. The believe that as a world power it is part of the United States duty to help protect the weak. Iraq is notorious for being cruel and abusive toward the weaker of the world and of their own nation.

Not all of those friends who I know who are serving truely approve of the United States reasons for this current war. They did not know they were going to be thrust into a situation that they didn't totally agree with either but they have the honor to at least go through with what they agreed to.

Not one of these men and women whom I know who serve our country are Sociopaths. Do you even have a psychology degree to make such a declaration.

I'm not disgreeing that those who abuse the prisoners don't have some psychological and emotional problems and need to be dealt with instead of allowed to continue. Their actions do not speak for the entirety of our armed forces let alone a large portion even.

Please refrain from making negative generalizations.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

water_boy1999

The country would have been fine without the war? You mean, to continue to let Saddam Hussein stay in power would have been a good thing? There is no doubt in my mind that he needed to be pulled from power. Do you think the war on terrorism would have just stopped after 9/11? Do you think Saddam would have woke up one day and decided to be a good leader and give money back to his people, stop trading arms for oil from other Middle East countries, building up his arsenal, torturing and raping his own people? I don't think so.

We have war because it is a necessity of human life. We make do with what we have because without our armed forces, our country would be an easy target for dictators and tyrants whose narrow minded view of the world makes them think their race and religion should be the ultimate influence in the rest of the world. Our soldiers not only protect our country from these evil doers, but they protect the very essence of every right you hold as a U.S. citizen. If you feel you can still have these rights without the influence of our military, you have a very narrow minded view of not only our society, but the societies of who we are at war with.

I do not agree that the atrocities by U.S. soldiers is in any way justifiable, but to group all military personnel into one, as you put it, "whether they are gentle or not, they are murderers", shows a limited knowledge of what our country would be like without them.

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