Halx

OK. Everyone listen up, because I have a few things to say.

You may have noticed that several fellow members, including some Moderators, have recently had a mass exodus. I’d like to explain that.

Our loss of their contributions to the site is unfortunate, but everyone makes their own decisions. It is hard to conceive that you could lose people who were once your friends to something such as a question in site policy. It is sad that such a thing could make them leave, starting false rumors and chilling the air as they go.

At no time is it possible to write a book of rules that come encompass all possible scenarios. It stands to reason, then, that sometimes a precedent is set based on actions for which there is no current rule. You all know what these are- these are called “gray areas”.

“Gray areas”, as all other infractions, are dealt with as they come- and sometimes that means making a rule WHILE people are committing those acts.

There was no rule in effect to save the first moron who ever pissed on an electric fence. The fact that some people cannot see that I had to make a choice based on what I saw as the outcome of their actions is unfortunate. Just because you don’t see it as being wrong, or there isn’t already a rule for it, doesn’t mean it’s an ok idea. To do something specifically because there isn’t a rule against it, is exploiting a loophole.

To put it bluntly, there has been some assholish loophole-fucking, and now that I’ve found out about it and decided to kill it, those involved are being immature about my decisions.

That's called change, folks. I know that change is hardly ever easy, but occasionally it becomes necessary.

I just don’t understand why anyone would think that I would allow bashing other members, or site-bashing, in their journals when it’s absolutely not allowed anywhere else in the TFP. There is no rule, precedent, or concept that we’ve ever communicated to any member that says that the journals are private. The journals have “discuss” buttons, and the latest 10 are displayed on the Journals main page. What about any aspect of the entire Journal feature does anyone find private? It is confusing, then, that anyone would think otherwise.

To address the matter of “private” entries- administrators of this board must monitor these entries to be responsible. There are some things that cannot be kept in secret, such as a child predator’s personal logs, or other illegal activities. There IS a necessity for it.

Now, just to lay down the rules once and for all on this, just so we’re not confused-

• Journal entries are NOT private.
• Journal entries are subject to the same rules as the rest of the TFP. Everyone on the TFP can read them, and many of them do. It’s set up that way on purpose- to share your lives. The journals are more a place for you to put random thoughts that don’t belong in threads.
• PRIVATE Journal entries MUST AND WILL be monitored- and only by the administrators.
• SITE BASHING is just as bad as, if not worse than, bashing other members. This goes for anywhere on the TFP- INCLUDING your journals, as mentioned above.

my thanks to analog and the rest of the mods for their help

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Aletheia

Site Bashing behide people's backs is fucked up. Hell site bashing overall is fucked up. I still fail to see how people could assume that the owner of the site wouldn't check up on site content. There is no such thing as private to a site administrator.

flamingdog

So this is why long-standing users suddenly have 'banned' tags?

Crack

I thought it was a joke that I wasen't in on, where users with custom titles were putting "Banned" as their status...
Thanks for clearing that up Halx. We all know that you have the best interest of our community at large in mind.

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onetime2

Hal,

Can you tell us what constitutes "bashing"?

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Midnight_Son

If you put something on the net, whether it’s here or someplace else, other people are going to see it, I don’t care how “private” it is….if somebody wants to see it, they will. I’m amazed that this shocks some people.
Granted, it’s sad that we have to lose good people over a silly misunderstanding but that’s the way life goes. This community it’s vision will survive with or without them.

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Cycler

To quote soemone whose 15 minutes are up,<p> "Can't we all just get along?"<p>Wow I thought this was over. Move along nothing to see here c'mon. Another bastardized quote either, <p>Tune in, turn on, or DROP OUT!<p>Some of us are pretty happy here.

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sipsake

This would be very helpful. I'm not sure I understand what site bashing is and what makes it a banning offense. It must be pretty serious if some of TFP's more prolific and interesting posters were summarily shown the door.

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Midnight_Son

Stay away from negative comments about the community and the members. It’s all about respect. If you respect this place, the people that run it, and your fellow users, you’ll be fine. To be honest, it’s just common sense.

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rockogre

Halx, I again appreciate your explanation of what has gone on. Just another page in the history of the TFP and a learning experience in the bargain.

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feelgood

Why would you even need to bash TFP in the first place? This place is great!! If you bash TFP just because some poster's opinion is "stupid" well, that's their own rights and it is not your rights to say other wise and sure hell isn't your right to bash TFP subsequentially...

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MSD

What can you think of that you would say at someone's house that would give them reason to leave you off the guest list for the next party? If you can do it respectfully, disagreement is acceptable. If you wouldn't feel comfortable having someone say it to you in person, it probably shouldn't be said. If you have what you think is valid input or commentary on TFP policy, write it up, word it tactfully (maybe even politely) and PM it to a moderator.

Keep in mind that, although this isn't a democracy, we will take evolutionary steps to suit the best interests of ourselves and our members.

Evolution is an ongoing process, but a whale can't grow feet overnight.

Lasereth

I don't understand the issue here. Tilted Forum Project is simply the best moderated forum on the Internet, and it's like that based on a set of rules that have been made continously since it was created. If the rules are against child pornography, site bashing, and flaming, so be it. If the journals are viewable by people on the Internet, then the same fucking rules need to be applied to the journals. The journals aren't a seperate entity from TFP -- they are a place to post thoughts that won't fit anywhere else. Asking for them to be completely private is simply unrealistic. This IS the Internet, after all.

LiveJournals are moderated. Every damn entry you post in a LiveJournal is seen by an administrator for the same reasons that they are here.

Anyone who makes a fuss about the journal entries being seen by administrators needs to go and buy a web domain to post their shit or a little $1.00 journal to write their thoughts in. This is Tilted Forum Project and its journals, not "Tilted Forum Project and a place to post whatever I want without restriction."

It's sad to see those members be banned, but if they're willing to fight against the TFP's rules, then there really isn't another choice. Good judgment Hal and the rest of the people involved!

-Lasereth

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santafe5000

In the commercial business world, if your company found out you were out there badmouthing the company, you would be shown the door rather quickly. The same goes for just about any organization. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything.
Hal, thanks for the explaination and thanks for keeping things up to such a high standard.

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Redlemon

Hal, thank you for your direct words to the community on this issue. I feel like I understand it well enough now without having to know all the details, so I won't bother PMing you.

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yournamehere

I can understand how someone might interpret "private" as private. However, I can understand even more easily how everyone should know that nothing on the internet is truly private.

As far as free speech and moderating go - I think there will never be a middle ground upon which everyone can agree. Private rights vs the Greater Good is always a good topic for debate. That's why for every one person who thinks it's his right to have a junk car sitting in his front yard, there's another person who's angry his own property value plummets because of it.

Civilization is a give and take between personal rights and the will of the community. Everyone has their own idea of the perfect balance between the two - but very few people agree on exactly where that line is drawn.

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SecretMethod70

What reasonable person would have imagined when the journals were created that since we didn't explicitly say so - even though the rule stands EVERYWHERE else on the site - people would assume the journals were an area where they could bash who- or what-ever they wanted, calling them names and accusing them of unscrupulous things, all because we failed to specifically mention that journals were included in all other site-wide policy? Some things I'll never understand.

To expound on MrSelfDestruct's explanation of "bashing," let me just add that there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.

There is a right way to stay in touch with friends who may have departed TFP and a wrong way. Using TFP to actively recruit members in an inconspicuous manner to a new site which centers around bashing TFP and those who work hard to run it is the wrong way.

There is a right way and a wrong way to question TFP policy and actions. Making a journal entry full of one-sided accusations of devious behavior is the wrong way.

If you have a problem with something on the site, PM Hal or any of the other mods/supermods/admins. We're here to help you. That doesn't mean you'll always like everything we do or our reasons for doing it, and that doesn't mean we'll necessarily always do the best job of communicating our intentions to you - we're only human too - but that does mean that we'll try our best.

And if you make a series of journal entries with thinly veiled sarcastic and bitter criticisms of this site and its people, backed up by the same kinds of attitudes in your posts regarding those people that only serve to confirm the names of the people that you're so obviously bashing all along, don't be surprised when you aren't always treated nicely and don't be surprised if you're asked to take your negative attitude elsewhere.

If you've got a problem with a person - be they a regular member or someone on TFP staff - then PM a TFP staff member whom you DON'T have a problem with and try to work it out. And if you can't learn to at least show that member respect explicitly ***AND*** implicitly (you think I believe implicit respect is important too? ) then stop responding to that member until you can do so in a way that doesn't imply your hatred/lack of respect for him or her.

Welcome to the world of people being responsible for their actions, even when they're not technically and exactly what is said to be wrong. Common sense rules all, and transparently obvious, thinly concealed flaming is just as bad as outright flaming.

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Lebell

Well,

SecretMethod said it far better than I could.

But I can't keep my trap shut, so I always have to add a few things


To me, "bashing" is like walking into your friend's or their friend's house and saying "gee, this place sucks, your furniture is crappy, it smells, your mom sucks.....oh, what's for dinner?".

In other words, it's the things that you DON'T say when in someone's house (Halx's in this case) and want to be invited back.

And as SecretMethod said, there are two ways to say everything. You can tell us, "You know, I really don't agree with this policy" and nothing bad will happen (the policy may or may not change, but that's another kettle of fish). But if you come in here and make posts like, "The mods and admins around here are power hungry Nazi's" (just a hypothetical example), then don't be surprised if you try to login and can't.

Politeness and mutual respect, I really don't know how much simpler it can get.

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water_boy1999

well said SM70.

I had some thoughts on the subject, but all of my points have already been covered. If you can't play nice, get out of our sandbox!

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ratbastid

I for one never saw any of these site- or person-bashing journal entries. I saw some (including some from the now-banned folks) that expressed their trouble and dismay at actions--not policies, but actions--taken by the site leadership. Was that the personal attacking that they were banned for? Or did the offending entries get modded into never-never-land? Or did I just never have good enough timing to see them?

I don't mind saying: some dear friends of mine just got banned. I'm really, really sad about that. I guess I see why in Hal's (and others') mind it had to be done, but still, I'm sad about it.

laconic1

I just don't get it. I don't see how it can be so difficult for some people to abide by a basic set of rules. Don't be a dick, don't be a sarcastic smartass, act your age, be respectful of other people, and you'll be ok.

mrquackers

Like ratbastid, I've lost some good friends in this latest exodus/purging. And I did see at least one of the entries Hal noted and suspect I saw others which annoyed him.

My question, though, is given the long and otherwise outstanding history several of these people had, were they given a warning (and explanation) that they were treading on thin ice and risking a ban? It would seem they had earned that by their past forum behavior, despite what they said/wrote in their journals.

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wilbjammin

The signals were pretty obvious to me what the administrators were trying to stop, hell, just look at ARTelevision's journal. I could see this coming for nearly a week, the only surprise to me was the number of people who left.

This is a classic issue involving a social contract. By joining the site you explicitly agree to the site rules and standards. When given signals to change your ways, you should either change or leave. As opposed to nation-states, you have absolute freedom in this manner.

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sailor

I think that is a good question.

Several long-standing members just got banned. Thats pretty rough. Unfortunately, from the explanations I have heard, it seems like they *did* bring it upon themselves.

So it goes. This sucks, but I suppose we just keep on going, right?

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:::OshnSoul:::

First of all, well written post, Halx. Thank you.
I must sort out how I feel about this, as I care about the board, but also the members-they are who make the board what it is.
I just started a journal myself, and I am not one to hide anything, so I would keep my journal public. Now, as far as the private journals go, it is only the mods who can view them in order to monitor them?
If I were to have a private journal online, I would know that it would be read by the moderators of the site-end of story. Mods have access to everything and should, in order to mainatain a healthy, clean site. On the other hand, private journals are our way to vent and let all of our emotions, thoughts, events out in order to release stress or what-not. But, my question is why would anyone choose to post negative thoughts about other members, let alone the site itself when they seem to be a very active, kind, respectful person on the board- especially a mod?
Of course it is choice, and there is a conseqence, even if it was not a set rule, common logic would tell you that the private journals are still monitored just like all of the posts.
Lastly, and most importantly- all my love and support goes to those who participated in such ways, who are now banned. Also love & support goes to the mods who are respectively keeping this board clean, even though those were private journal entries.
Even though I don't beleive in privacy, it is something that shouldn't be tampered with to show respect and that sucks about them having to get banned for their private thoughts, but they should know that they overstepped a boundary with their private thoughts. I am on a teeter-totter of feelings on this here, but I for one am not a private person, so it's hard to put myself in the banned members' positions.
Those members will be missed, it's unfortunate, but I don't see either the private journal writings nor the mods being right neither do I see them as wrong. They both have made valid points and can understand the views of each side.

sailor

I want to add one more thing: Thank you Hal for addressing the subject. Letting things flounder in the dark without addressing them only lets more rumors, and eventually problems get started. By getting it out in the open and letting us know what has happened and why, it helps to assuage people's worries, kill rumors, and hopefully prevent future incidents.

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--Plato

forecheck

I keep reading that if you respect this place and each other then you'll be fine. It is more then that....

I would add, don't get on the bad side of a moderator because if you do. As soon as you have a little bit of negativity you are gone.

I have seen posts by some users that I just plan rude and then are not banned.

Then I see a post with an opinion about somebody that could be negative. Then that person is gone.

So, add to the list of things that will get you banned. The fact that you get on a moderators list. Then you might as well just leave.

Bill O'Rights

No. It is only the Administrators that have access to "private" journal entries, not the Moderators, or even the Super Moderators

See above. As with other members and certain areas of the site, there is also limited access in the ranks of the "management", as well. There is only so much that a moderator has the actual "power" to do. And so should it be. It helps to keep a check and balance on things.

ARTelevision

forecheck, 20 posts isn't sufficient experience to make that kind of judgment. That's my opinion. Communities and community interaction are more complex and subtle than that. Someone in your position doesn't see the amount of communication that we carry on with members who run aground of the rules and the number of times we cut people breaks.

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spectre

art said this well. I'd also like to add that if you see someone flaming or doing anything else that's against board policy, click the "report this post to a moderator" link in the bottom right of their post. Sometimes, you may see something that one of us hasn't seen yet. Click the link and let us know.

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Midnight_Son

since you're quoting me...I'll put in my own 2 cents

Just a thought, but considering the rookie tag, your number of posts, and your attitude, I'd hazard a guess your on your way to a unique tag of your own.

I’ve been here for a long, long time, and I’m a complete asshole. If I can hold my tongue when I need to, and show the proper resect to people, there’s no reason anybody else can’t do the same thing. Show respect, and you’ll be fine, if you can’t…or you don’t like the rules. Bail out! The internet is a big beautiful place.

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Bill O'Rights

Uh, no. In all the time that I've been on the TFP, from "Rookie" on up, I have never seen this to be the case. Sixate and I, for example, have gone round and round on several issues. Not only am I still here, I'm now a Moderator myself, with his blessings, I might add. Plus, if your statement were true, the politics board would be a damn lonely place for me. I can think of three people, right off the top of my head, that I know I'm going to get wound up over, everytime I read one of thier posts. But, and this is the big but, they are always respectfull. Both when crafting thier own opinions, or responding to one of my own.

When I go in and edit a post, or move a post to more suitable location, or completely from "public" view...it is a judgement call. There have been numerous instances when I have found a comment to be very borderline. In these cases, I usually choose to error on the side of caution, and leave it alone and monitor the hell out of it. Other times I will defer to those with more experience. In either case, I do not, nor does any other Mod, that I know of, go through on a slash and burn mission.

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forecheck

Isn't it obvious that I got banned from this site before? You guys are intelligent people. Quick Edit... I didn't mean this a s a negative comment.

Anyway, I support this site and their rules. Unfortunately when you have moderators, who moderates the moderators? I was banned before and I didn't have any way to understand why. Just couldn't get in. When I tried to sign in I just got a rude comment about.

So I came back to the site and poke around. But I am not going to get anymore active then that because what happens when another moderator decides that I should be banned?

If I donate do I have more latitude. If I donate do I get a refund? Probably not.

So I am not going to risk it.

So when somebody asks. What has to happen to get banned. Please add. "Don't get on the list, because they you have zero latitude"

Lasereth

Well, while I might not agree with forecheck 100%, I can say that this HAS happened before (to me). Yeah, I did report the moderator's post to...umm, a moderator, and I'm not really sure where it went after that. I PM'ed said moderator asking a quick question, and he/she was a complete smartass to me, even making fun of me asking he/she a question. I ended up talking to this person, and upon talking for a good bit, it simply ended with the moderator stating that it is NOT their responsibility to be civil or answer any questions that users have, and that the moderator does not need a valid reason to delete or edit posts.

I will add that this moderator does not have the moderator tag on their name anymore, so I'm assuming that this was taken care of...just wanted to say that there are a few anomalies here.

Overall, the administration and moderation of Tilted Forum Project is still better than ANY other forum I've ever been to.

-Lasereth

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Lebell

Just a point,

Staff has to play by the same rules you do. Since this person is no longer a moderator, I would say that there are NO anomalies

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Lasereth

By anomalies, I meant different events like the ones I described. I know all of the mods and admins here are fine because they all do their job without taking sides. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

-Lasereth

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Halx

forecheck,

The rules are always justified until you find yourself on the wrong side of them.

Now, what makes you think that a ban only means you are allowed to register again and come back? I tell ya, you're receiving some good graces on the grounds of hopeful progress, but you seem to be holding this grudge... tsk.

FYI, we knew you were a previously banned member based on your comments in another thread. The good graces pile up.

So when are you going to start feeling grateful for this? The bottom line is - you fuck up, you're gone. The rules are stated for you to read as many times as you like and it is your responsibility to uphold them. If there are any gray areas, you should use common sense.

Furthermore, decisions are rarely made unilaterally. We have several channels of communication in which we share opinions about decisions. While the rules may be black and white, we always want to make sure that we're interpreting what we see correctly.

Judging by your posts so far, it's not hard to see how a couple mods could recognize you as an agressor.

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shakran

What exactly would be the point of explaining to someone why you banned them? They're banned. Gone. As far as they're concerned, the why is irrelevant, because, after all, what are they gonna do about it if they don't like the reason? It's not like Halx has a committee ready to override his decisions. Knowing the why won't change the outcome.

As for getting banned for one instance of being overly harsh. . . I call total BS on that. I've been overly harsh in posts before, and the most I've ever gotten was a comment that I went too far and a request to edit the post. No mentions of banning, and I've never seen the "banned screen." And the moderator in question was very polite about it when they talked to me as well. Hardly the nazi stormtrooper some of you guys are making them out to be.


Of course, when a moderator talks to me about something, I don't come back with "well fuuuuuck you! Ever heard of the first amendment? I have the RIGHT to say whatever I want on here blah blah blah you suck blah blah."

I know from adminning my own sites that some users are wont to do this. If you were an admin, and someone told you to piss off after you nicely asked them to stop their behavior, wouldn't YOU ban 'em? I sure did on my systems. Me not being an asshole about it when the staff talks to me has probably gone a fairly long way toward me not getting banned.

I also don't tend to make posts solely for the purpose of bashing the board or its staff. Not that I have anything to bash them about, but if I did, and I made such posts, I really wouldn't be surprised to get banned. I'd deserve it.

I'm seeing a growing problem on here that I've seen in online forums / chat sites before. People get too damned wrapped up in this place. It starts becoming an integral part of their life, and in many cases their identity. Then, when they see something happen that they don't like, they flip out. They decide to take this big ol' stand, as though they're thinking an injustice has happened, and "JUSTICE will prevail if I only stand up for what I believe is right!"

Only trouble is, there's no such thing as an injustice on here. This is Halx's playground. It's his world, and it gets structured and run according to what he wants. In short, justice is whatever Halx says it is.

What we have to realize is that this is an online community that we all obviously like for one reason or another (and no, not just porn). If Halx changes rules, and that makes the community one that you no longer like, then you are free to leave. Quietly. No one's forcing you to stay here, and I'm sure you could get the email addresses of the people you really like talking to, and keep in touch with them without visiting the TFP. This would have an advantage for the disenchanted user - he wouldn't have to deal with what he thinks is an intolerable message board - and to the rest of us - we wouldn't have to watch the soap opera that results when someone gets banned for going apeshit about a perceived injustice.

We have to realize that this is a fun place, and it's a place where a lot of interesting conversations can be held, but at it's core, it's a VIRTUAL community. Too many people are treating it like it's their real life, when it should be treated as a fun diversion from their real life. If you approach message forums / chat systems with that attitude, you'd be surprised how much more enjoyment you get out of them. In short, chill out. It's only the internet

Bill O'Rights

Holy crap, shakran, that's about the most sense I think I've ever seen you make. JK
Good words...and all true.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

:::OshnSoul:::

I gotcha. Makes total sense. thankz