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The Vatican is now spreading the word throughout the world that condoms are ineffective at preventing HIV infection. I do hope this is a falsehood. The Catholic church is making some very interesting and connected statements. There is also a distinct separation from common sense. The message they spread here is extremely dangerous.

Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids

Steve Bradshaw
Thursday October 9, 2003
The Guardian

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have the HIV virus - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

· Steve Bradshaw is a correspondent with Panorama. Sex and the Holy City will be broadcast on BBC1 at 10.15pm on Sunday

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MSD

Sheepskin condoms can allow the HIV virus to pass through. Latex condoms are not permeable and can be trusted to protect anyone who uses them properly and consistently.

I am apalled that such an influential organization would spread blatant lies in order to promote their moral beliefs. I realize that people do this kind of thing, but I didn't want to believe that they couuld do something this disgusting.

Jaseca

I didn't think latex condoms were non-permeable to HIV virus. I thought there was always the assumed risk with it since the size of the virus is so small compared to that of a sperm cell etc.

Midnight_Son

NOW can we burn the churches?............please?

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Macheath

If the Church could simply stand by this idea as a simple article of faith and morality I might just barely be able to tolerate it. Just have them honestly present the claimed morality of their case and be done with it. Instead they resort to dishonesty, fearmongering and pseudoscience to win their "argument" at any price.

Averett

Me too. It's insane, really.

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jwoody

Vatican City logic:-

In a 100mph head-on collision you will recieve very serious injuries from your seatbelt.

Don't wear seatbelts.

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The_Dude

What the fuck do people who have never had sex (at least not with women) know about sex?

I bet god called on 'em to spread this "message" or something. i know condoms arent 100%, but hell it's better than no protection.

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little limey

Good point The_Dude. They're probably just obsessed with watching other people test out condoms or this test is the only way they can ever have one on.

If the Vatican had i their way the world would be so overpopulated that people would be praying for God to strike down states at a time so they could have a little room to breath. I wonder if there were too many people in the world and not enough plants that oxygen would stop being created in large enough amounts for humans to survive.

lurkette

This is truly disgusting and a stunning example of dogma trumping common sense. How can they not recognize the human suffering this position is going to cause, not just among their own congregations (which, incidentally, will be shrinking fast due to AIDS deaths if they follow the Vatican's advice) but among others in developing countries where AIDS education is struggling to take hold. This is so irresponsible. Is this perhaps their twisted version of population control in the third world?

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bermuDa

contraception and disease are some of the few remaining things keeping the human population from exploding all over this planet like a peter north cumshot. If we got rid of either one we'd be in serious trouble. If we got rid of both it'd be catastrophic.

thanks to the vatican for pushing their own agenda through untruths. anyone who takes the catholic church's word on scientific 'facts' doesn't have much sympathy from me.

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Bill O'Rights

That's the beauty of the plan...don't you see? Good little Catholics, that follow the church doctrine, do not HAVE sex outside of marriage, thereby significantly reducing the threat of AIDS. More of them survive the "scourge", whilst those non-followers of the Catholic faith drop like flies from unprotected sex, thereby accomplishing what the inquisitions, and hundreds of years of dogma could not...total world domination. Bwuhahahaha.

Seriously though...this is some pretty unconscionable shit.

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"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

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billege

I am really upset about this. I can't add too much that isn't already said, I really just want to register my disgust.

I can get on the internet and check facts like this for myself. Millions of dying Africans can't. This is unforgivable.

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raeanna74

I have heard this before about the virus being smaller than sperm to the point of being able to pass through the condom membrane. If you read the instructions carefully on all packs of condoms there is a disclaimer saying that it isn't a completely fool proof method of protecting against HIV infection. There is a tiny risk of pregnancy as well as risk of infection. The risk is still small. When you consider using the vinyl or sheepskin condoms then the risk jumps quite a bit. I just say - KNOW the person you are sleeping with. Or at the very least make sure you use the condom.

This hogwash about telling an HIV infected man to not use a condom with his wife. That is crap. Even if it didn't work what would be the harm in attempting to protect her? He's married to her for goodness sake. You think he's not going to want to enjoy sex with her.

There is an interesting book on the subject of Aids from the perspective of a family who has been infected by it. The Woman got it first from a blood transfusiong back before they had better methods of testing for Aids. She gave it to her child through breastfeeding and then her husband contracted it as well. They are Christian Protestants and so there is an interesting slant on it. It would be worth reading to at least get another perspective on HIV infection. I have met and spoken to the author. His wife was too ill to attend the conference at the time. This was where I first heard of the idea that the virus can actually get through the condom membrane. The book is titled "When AIDS Comes Home" http://www.aegis.com/pubs/books/1998/BK980786.html

Hope this helps a little.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

sixate

Religion and all of it's hipocrisy....

I really hope that nobody is surprised by this. I'm not.

Lebell

The Roman Catholic Church heirarchy and all of it's hypocrisy....

One of the reasons I left that particular church and am now an Episcopalian.

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gov135

Hold on a second.

Am I the only one who sees value in trying to ram it through the skulls of people from third-world countries that they need to be more careful about sexual encounters? How many people in some of the hardest hit countries in Africa do you honestly think are carrying around condems right now? The answer is next to none. Women are most afraid of the virus, but the distribution of female condoms has all but halted after it was found they are
more fearful using them for cultural reasons. Third-world males have always been found not to use condoms, some reporting that their manhood is challenged by using them.

I don't approve of the method. But halting the spread of the AIDS epidemic in third world countries will require more then just pushing condems at people - they dont use them! Instead, health organizations need to get people to understand how quickly the virus spreads, that you don't need symptoms to be a carrier, - in short, quit fucking so much or you are rolling the dice just like Siegfried's buddy and that bear-lover in Alaska.

Again, I don't approve of the method. But if people at risk won't use condoms another approach is needed - even if it is abstinence or "fear of God".

meepa

Faith in the world: minus 20 points

ARTelevision

Right after your sex-ed class, taught by the pope - go to directly to good parenting class, taught by michael jackson. you can pick up your blindfolds, ear plugs, and rose-colored glasses from the guidance counselor.

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GoldenOuroboros

LOL Art .. I'll write abit more after I get back to work..

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SLIMM

like i always say,"feed em to the lions"!!!

RoadRage

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hobarth

I think the church is on to something though. A sure-fire way to eradicate the threat of AIDS and, as a matter of fact, all STDs is for the human race to practice total sexual abstention for a generation or two. BLAM! Problem solved. Life is overrated anyway.

Let's leave it to those damn monkeys to fix this big ball of pollution we've created.

lurkette

Think it's any coincidence that the leaders of the Anglican Church are called Primates?

/badjoke

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Peryn

Did anyone here do any research or are you all listening to rumors? There are some simple facts, much against the popular rumors. A Latex condom has pores in it. They are usually about 5 microns diameter. some are as large as 50 microns. sperms ranges around 50 microns. It is very effective in blocking sperm from passing through the latex, and thus is an effective contraceptive. The HIV virus is 0.1 micron. thats 50times smaller than the holes in latex. Thats like throwing a ping-pong ball at a stretched out cargo not to cover the back of you truck with. The ping pong balls (HIV) will go through quite frequently.

Most test show about a 33% HIV leakage rate on BRAND NEW condoms. Not ones that have been shipped in a non temperature controlled truck, not ones that have been in your pocket or drawer for a long time, not ones that sat in a storage facility in the dead of winter....but brand new ones. i wouldn't trust my life to a 1 in 3 chance..


Those are just some facts. Google it and you will find more sourcs than i could imagine linking to.

This is not a "widespread" belief. Anyone who believe condoms are impermiable to HIV is a total doofus with no idea on the facts.

This is true.


Condoms are not going to fix the HIV problem, though they may decrease it. They are in no way impermeable and shouldn't be counted on to prevent STDs. Does this mean we shouldn't use them at all? absolutely not. But stop and think about what the church IS saying. If the use of condoms brings a belief that they can sex up whoever they want, the rate of sex will increase. Common sense. BUT, if they find that the rate of promiscuous sex increases with condoms to a rate that is higher than the rate of protection from a condom, it would make more sense to have less sex and NOT use a condom. obviously not as good as less sex and a condom, but that isn't going to happen in africa.

Now i am not sure if they have proved the numbers to see if their position is proper at this time, but the logic behind their release makes sense.




Now, as for the tests the WHO uses to show that rubbers are "impermeable" ... heres what one scientist had to say about it :

Source : http://www.conservativeforum.org/EssaysForm.asp?ID=6071

The source is obviously biased, but it doesn't mean its wrong. Many other pages cite similar informaiton as well.

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danielboy

I grew up catholic and I was always told in school birth control was evil and wrong. I guess this just follows suit.

CSflim

And then the church wonder why they are recieving less and less respect as the years go on?

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Destrox

I could act all suprised and such...

But its religion, with that fact said, you will expect them to cause thousands of innocent lives to die for no damn reason.

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cliche

Whilst I agree with your main point (that nothing's guaranteed), I think you're overstressing the case; and I think your 'ping-pong vs cargo-net' analogy goes way too far. In actual fact you'd be trusting your life to something more like a 1 in 20,000 chance which is something safer!

From: National Institute of Health report into condom effectiveness for STD prevention

FDA researchers have also developed an assay for condom leakage using high
concentrations of a laboratory virus (78). The laboratory virus penetration assay
is not used routinely as a quality control test, but its sensitivity and relevance are
arguably greater than the conventional water leakage test. Using this virus
assay, FDA scientists tested many different types of male condoms and showed
that condoms are highly effective barriers to virus passage with a very small
chance of leakage (76, 77). Intact condoms (i.e., pass the water leak test) are
essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens (including the
smallest sexually transmitted virus, hepatitis B). Moreover, these studies show
that fluid flow, not virus size, is the most important determinant of viral passage
through a hole. Even holes many times larger than the virus impeded fluid flow
such that few of the test particles passed through (78).

The methodological strength of the studies on condoms to reduce the risk of
HIV/AIDS transmission far exceeds that for other STDs. There is demonstrated
exposure to HIV/AIDS through sexual intercourse with a regular partner (with an
absence of other HIV/AIDS risk factors). Longitudinal studies of HIV- sexual
partners of HIV+ infected cases allow for the estimation of HIV/AIDS incidence
among condom users and condom non-users. From the two incidence
estimates, consistent condom use decreased the risk of HIV/AIDS transmission
by approximately 85%. These data provide strong evidence for the effectiveness
of condoms for reducing sexually transmitted HIV.

So - yes, you're right - some HIV can get through a condom. But the risks are extremely low - something like 0.6 seroconversions per 100 person-years (usually meaning having sex about 10,000 times). This compares with 6.7 without condoms. So the catholic church is OK to tell people that condoms won't guarantee their safety - but to tell people not to use them is outright dangerous. 'Don't have sex' is defensible, but 'don't use condoms' is just plain frightening.

No, they're not perfect, but they're the best thing we've got. And unless the catholic church is doing this to

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Ashton