High-tech targets bad bar customers - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 10-08-2003, 05:33 PM

Get 86d by one bar and they can alert the rest of the bars that you are a potentially bad customer. Please note that this is being installed in Vancouver. Fair? Unfair? Against your rights? Would it be fair for you to be blackballed completely?

-------------

link

High-tech targets bad bar customers
All patrons face personal history check at the door

Lori Culbert and Amy O'Brian
Vancouver Sun

Tuesday, October 07, 2003

Vancouver bar patrons will soon have to produce identification and have their photograph taken every time they enter clubs or bars connected to an electronic network designed to red-flag troublemakers.

Within the next six months, about 35 bars and clubs in Vancouver are expected to be hooked into the Barwatch system.

Barwatch, a coalition of Vancouver bar and nightclub owners, still has to vote today on whether to make an ID security system mandatory at all its member establishments, but John Teti, chairman of the coalition, said the vote is merely a formality.

"We have full backing from our members," Teti said Monday.

"It should take about six months to implement the full system."

Once the system is in place, patrons will be asked to stand in front of a camera to have their picture taken and will then swipe their drivers' licence, or possibly show some other form of identification, that will automatically give the establishment the patron's name and age and show if he or she has caused trouble at any other bar on the network.

The establishment will not be able to access the person's address or criminal record by swiping the licence.

Barwatch is considering several different security system manufacturers for the contract, but Teti said Vancouver-based TreoScope Technologies Inc. has a system with advantages over others.

One thing Teti likes about TreoScope's "Vigilance" system is that it can be accessed by all the establishments on the network, which means a patron who gets into a fight at one bar along Granville Street will be red-flagged by the time he tries to get into another bar down the street.

TreoScope co-owner Owen Cameron said the system can also be used, for example, to help a victim whose drink has been spiked. The customer could return to the bar several days after the incident and go through photographs of patrons, trying to identify who might have spiked the drink.

"We can start making Vancouver's nightlife a little safer," Cameron said.

"We can't guarantee it's going to eradicate violence, but at least it's a step in the right direction."

Vancouver police are supportive.

There have been more altercations between drunken clubbers since the city extended drinking hours to 4 a.m. and the department has spent nearly $120,000 for extra police officers to work the late-night patrol since the hours were extended July 4, Constable Sarah Bloor said.

Such a system would also mean officers could use a search warrant to retrieve a list of patrons should a crime happen inside a club, Bloor said.

When gunfire erupted at the Loft Six bar this summer, witnesses scattered and police found it very difficult to get information about the fatal shooting.

Bloor said police hope the Liquor Control and Licensing Board will endorse such a tool, so that all bars in the city would be required to use it.

But some patrons and the B.C. Freedom of Information and Privacy Association don't like the idea.

"I would just walk the other way and see how they like it. I wouldn't put up with that myself," said Darrell Evans, executive director of the association. "The infrastructure is stacking up and stacking up towards a police state."

At the Pump Jack Pub on Davie Street, where the Vigilance system was being demonstrated Monday, patrons seemed wary of the device.

"It feels like an unnecessary invasion of privacy," David Caro said. "It's going in the direction the United States is going in terms of freedoms being given up for security."

But Cameron rejected the suggestion that the technology is a privacy invasion along the lines of George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.

"Most people are willing to give up a bit of anonymity for safety," he said.

Dean Price, another customer at the Pump Jack, doesn't have a driver's licence and wondered if that would automatically ban him from a bar.

"There are a lot of people [in the West End] who don't have a licence," Price said. "I don't like the idea."

Gabrielle Davis, spokesperson for TreoScope, said a bar owner might let Price in without a licence, or might ask for another piece of identification.

Owners and managers at the establishments can choose to use the system however they choose, Davis said. Even if three reports of fighting pop up on the computer screen when someone's licence is scanned, a manager or owner can use his or her own discretion and still let that person into the bar.

Teti said the different types of technology being considered for the contract are estimated to cost between $2,000 and $3,000 and would mean extra protection for bar owners.

"It records all people in the room and you're not anonymous anymore. If you act like a goof, we know who you are," he said.

He also argued the gadgets are no different than handing over a driver's licence when people rent cars.

"It's not a radical thing. We're always giving up our ID," Teti said.

Mark Tatchell, deputy general manager of compliance and enforcement for the Liquor Control and Licensing Board, said Barwatch first suggested this type of technology to the solicitor general in February, after the government ordered the industry to improve compliance with ID being checked at the door.

Tatchell said the government is not endorsing a particular product and is only in the preliminary stages of speaking with bar owners about adopting this new type of technology at their clubs.

"We will look at if there is any research out there on the effectiveness of these types of technology before saying yea or nay to changing any regulations," Tatchell said.

He said bars are welcome to test any of the products on a voluntary basis, and the government will monitor the progress.

IC3 · 10-08-2003, 05:46 PM

I don't know about Vancouver, But here in Toronto...There has been alot of shit that happens at the night clubs...If your going for a good time and don't cause trouble I don't see what the problem is...I guess the guys who bring thier attitudes to the clubs would have a problem with it.

Cynthetiq · 10-08-2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IC3
I don't know about Vancouver, But here in Toronto...There has been alot of shit that happens at the night clubs...If your going for a good time and don't cause trouble I don't see what the problem is...I guess the guys who bring thier attitudes to the clubs would have a problem with it.

I may not be the troublemaker, but if some drunk idiot hits me and I'm ejected too....IMHO that's wrong. I was just there, minding my own business, and now I cannot go to a bar and get a drink?

Lebell · 10-08-2003, 06:22 PM

Perhaps I just don't feel that I need to put my name and face on record to have a drink?

While I support the right of establishments to do this, I would never go to one that did.

World's King · 10-08-2003, 06:29 PM

You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when fold 'em.

You get outta hand at a bar you shouldn't be allowed in any other bar until you can behave.

Kaos · 10-08-2003, 08:27 PM

If you behave properly, you have nothing to worry about.

I can understand miskates happen, but these mistakes are against the safety of other patrons.

How long are the bans? Maybe a system of Month Ban, then Year ban then permanent ban would be sufficient.

majik_6 · 10-08-2003, 08:45 PM

I agree with WK. I've been contemplating opening a club after college, and was wishing that something like this existed.

Hope it gets implemented in the US to be honest. Heck, you've gotta show ID at most places to drink anyways, so I don't see it as any real intrusion.

splck · 10-08-2003, 08:56 PM

I've seen some flipin' idiots in some bars around Vancouver. No one is forcing people to use this system, so I have no problem with it.

taog · 10-08-2003, 10:53 PM

I dont' have a problem with it

it's not only good for people causing trouble, but it's also good for underagers too... it will help limit the amount of underagers going into bars

personally.. something like this would probably cost too much money and would probably have a negative impact on the revenues of the companies involved.. thus, forcing the establishment to stop

I think it's a good idea, as long as the patrons can make statements that can be sent with the information about you to other bars... for example.. if some guy starts fighting me and i decide not to let him by forcing him to stop... i get kicked and so does he... i would want to make a statement saying that i got kicked out because this guy was an idiot.. not me

as for the bans and not letting people in.. i would assume that it's up to the bar

i could see a lot of legal issues arising here though

example.. someone gets accused of theft at one bar.. but really didn't steal anything... he tries to go to the next, but they won't let him in because of that... is that a good reason not to let someone in for a public establishment?.. i could see someone bringing in the law in a case like that

i do like the fact that it would probably scare a lot of people into not wanting to cause trouble though.. and it would get rid of the thugs and assholes

it's kind of funny though, if you think about it. Soon, some of the public world is going to be networked with information about individuals which is obtained by swiping a card. Currently it's basically only government related shit that does this. We aren't too far away from having a chip in our hands that tell everything about us.

Cynthetiq · 10-09-2003, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Perhaps I just don't feel that I need to put my name and face on record to have a drink?

While I support the right of establishments to do this, I would never go to one that did.

that too....

I see law enforcement and legal groups all fighting to get this information.

Example: spouse goes clubbing, each time going into the bar he's scanned. there's a record of him going in, and possibly who he's with since it will have date and time stamps.

people use the EZPASS toll records all the time in divorce courts now...

Semi-Normal · 10-09-2003, 06:12 AM

Being a bar worker myself, I like it. It would be good to see it over here in New Zealand - the less dickheads I have to deal with, the better - but I can't see that happening for a long time, if ever.

bundy · 10-09-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Semi-Normal
Being a bar worker myself, I like it. It would be good to see it over here in New Zealand - the less dickheads I have to deal with, the better - but I can't see that happening for a long time, if ever.

agreed.
this is a great idea.
nothing worse than getting the problems from the pub up the street rolling into your bar.
mind you, its not like bars haven´t always been in constant contact with each other... now it just seems heaps more efficient.

i forsee a lot less trouble for bouncers and bar security as well as bar staff...

troit · 10-09-2003, 08:37 AM

I have a bit of a problem with it -- and I by no means am a trouble maker. The problem with me lies with there being a record of where I've been and how many times I've been there. Not so sure I want big brother to know that every Wednesday night I go to such and such to unwind and have a pop...

gov135 · 10-09-2003, 03:32 PM

Cyn, I think that if "some drunk idiot" popped you one and you are not at fault, the bartender/bouncer would recognize that, same as they would if there was no high-tech system. And he, not you, would be placed on the system.

The point is that the system will only be as good as the humans that provide the inputs.

I like the idea. People seem to regard bars as places they can go and turn into someone else or misbehave. This is a disservice to those who just want to go watch the game and talk with some new people.

IC3 · 10-09-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
I may not be the troublemaker, but if some drunk idiot hits me and I'm ejected too....IMHO that's wrong. I was just there, minding my own business, and now I cannot go to a bar and get a drink?

I'm pretty sure if it's in self defense then there will be exceptions...I am not saying that I am all for this.

It could cut down on the shootings.

When you pick up flyers for Clubs/Raves it always says strict searches. They give you a quick pat down..Sometimes they may make you empty your pockets.

Some events don't even do searches.

Although most of the violence happens at clubs around here...Not very often anything happens at raves...Except drug busts.

canon · 10-09-2003, 04:05 PM

Seems like an infringement on my privacy. Fortunately I don't live in Vancouver.

oberon · 10-09-2003, 05:52 PM

There's a chain around here that's doing the same thing.

http://www.purdueexponent.org/interf...&storyid=index

Personally, I was wondering when it would happen. People could have set up blacklists without this gadget anyway.

taog · 10-09-2003, 06:10 PM

I also think it would be good for people who have been wrongly banned from bars too

example... a friend of mine tried to use fake id to get into this one bar many times, many years ago... then he turned legal age, and to this day, years later, some of the bouncers don't let him in. They say he causes shit and that he's a trouble maker, even though he isn't. Sometimes they don't let him in.

In this case, he would be allowed in, because he has no real record of causing shit, other than trying to get into the bar when he was underage.

I think i am all for this, because they are going to give you rights and not let just random people look at how often you go to the bar. Just because you go to a bar, it doesn't mean that you are drinking every time.

I'm sure the only people who will have access to these records are the police, and the bar staff. The bar staff would probably only be able to get the records by swiping your card anyway, so it's not like they can just go and look you up in the system.

10-08-2003, 05:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	High-tech targets bad bar customers Get 86d by one bar and they can alert the rest of the bars that you are a potentially bad customer. Please note that this is being installed in Vancouver. Fair? Unfair? Against your rights? Would it be fair for you to be blackballed completely? ------------- link High-tech targets bad bar customers All patrons face personal history check at the door Lori Culbert and Amy O'Brian Vancouver Sun Tuesday, October 07, 2003 Vancouver bar patrons will soon have to produce identification and have their photograph taken every time they enter clubs or bars connected to an electronic network designed to red-flag troublemakers. Within the next six months, about 35 bars and clubs in Vancouver are expected to be hooked into the Barwatch system. Barwatch, a coalition of Vancouver bar and nightclub owners, still has to vote today on whether to make an ID security system mandatory at all its member establishments, but John Teti, chairman of the coalition, said the vote is merely a formality. "We have full backing from our members," Teti said Monday. "It should take about six months to implement the full system." Once the system is in place, patrons will be asked to stand in front of a camera to have their picture taken and will then swipe their drivers' licence, or possibly show some other form of identification, that will automatically give the establishment the patron's name and age and show if he or she has caused trouble at any other bar on the network. The establishment will not be able to access the person's address or criminal record by swiping the licence. Barwatch is considering several different security system manufacturers for the contract, but Teti said Vancouver-based TreoScope Technologies Inc. has a system with advantages over others. One thing Teti likes about TreoScope's "Vigilance" system is that it can be accessed by all the establishments on the network, which means a patron who gets into a fight at one bar along Granville Street will be red-flagged by the time he tries to get into another bar down the street. TreoScope co-owner Owen Cameron said the system can also be used, for example, to help a victim whose drink has been spiked. The customer could return to the bar several days after the incident and go through photographs of patrons, trying to identify who might have spiked the drink. "We can start making Vancouver's nightlife a little safer," Cameron said. "We can't guarantee it's going to eradicate violence, but at least it's a step in the right direction." Vancouver police are supportive. There have been more altercations between drunken clubbers since the city extended drinking hours to 4 a.m. and the department has spent nearly $120,000 for extra police officers to work the late-night patrol since the hours were extended July 4, Constable Sarah Bloor said. Such a system would also mean officers could use a search warrant to retrieve a list of patrons should a crime happen inside a club, Bloor said. When gunfire erupted at the Loft Six bar this summer, witnesses scattered and police found it very difficult to get information about the fatal shooting. Bloor said police hope the Liquor Control and Licensing Board will endorse such a tool, so that all bars in the city would be required to use it. But some patrons and the B.C. Freedom of Information and Privacy Association don't like the idea. "I would just walk the other way and see how they like it. I wouldn't put up with that myself," said Darrell Evans, executive director of the association. "The infrastructure is stacking up and stacking up towards a police state." At the Pump Jack Pub on Davie Street, where the Vigilance system was being demonstrated Monday, patrons seemed wary of the device. "It feels like an unnecessary invasion of privacy," David Caro said. "It's going in the direction the United States is going in terms of freedoms being given up for security." But Cameron rejected the suggestion that the technology is a privacy invasion along the lines of George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. "Most people are willing to give up a bit of anonymity for safety," he said. Dean Price, another customer at the Pump Jack, doesn't have a driver's licence and wondered if that would automatically ban him from a bar. "There are a lot of people [in the West End] who don't have a licence," Price said. "I don't like the idea." Gabrielle Davis, spokesperson for TreoScope, said a bar owner might let Price in without a licence, or might ask for another piece of identification. Owners and managers at the establishments can choose to use the system however they choose, Davis said. Even if three reports of fighting pop up on the computer screen when someone's licence is scanned, a manager or owner can use his or her own discretion and still let that person into the bar. Teti said the different types of technology being considered for the contract are estimated to cost between $2,000 and $3,000 and would mean extra protection for bar owners. "It records all people in the room and you're not anonymous anymore. If you act like a goof, we know who you are," he said. He also argued the gadgets are no different than handing over a driver's licence when people rent cars. "It's not a radical thing. We're always giving up our ID," Teti said. Mark Tatchell, deputy general manager of compliance and enforcement for the Liquor Control and Licensing Board, said Barwatch first suggested this type of technology to the solicitor general in February, after the government ordered the industry to improve compliance with ID being checked at the door. Tatchell said the government is not endorsing a particular product and is only in the preliminary stages of speaking with bar owners about adopting this new type of technology at their clubs. "We will look at if there is any research out there on the effectiveness of these types of technology before saying yea or nay to changing any regulations," Tatchell said. He said bars are welcome to test any of the products on a voluntary basis, and the government will monitor the progress. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-08-2003, 05:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
IC3 Poison Location: Canada	I don't know about Vancouver, But here in Toronto...There has been alot of shit that happens at the night clubs...If your going for a good time and don't cause trouble I don't see what the problem is...I guess the guys who bring thier attitudes to the clubs would have a problem with it. __________________ "To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi

10-08-2003, 06:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Perhaps I just don't feel that I need to put my name and face on record to have a drink? While I support the right of establishments to do this, I would never go to one that did. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-08-2003, 06:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when fold 'em. You get outta hand at a bar you shouldn't be allowed in any other bar until you can behave. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

10-08-2003, 08:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
majik_6 narcissist Location: looking in a mirror	I agree with WK. I've been contemplating opening a club after college, and was wishing that something like this existed. Hope it gets implemented in the US to be honest. Heck, you've gotta show ID at most places to drink anyways, so I don't see it as any real intrusion. __________________ it's all about self-indulgence

10-08-2003, 08:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kaos Ssssssssss Location: Ontario	If you behave properly, you have nothing to worry about. I can understand miskates happen, but these mistakes are against the safety of other patrons. How long are the bans? Maybe a system of Month Ban, then Year ban then permanent ban would be sufficient.

10-08-2003, 08:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	I've seen some flipin' idiots in some bars around Vancouver. No one is forcing people to use this system, so I have no problem with it. __________________ nice line eh?

10-08-2003, 10:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
taog Crazy Location: London, Ontario, Canada	I dont' have a problem with it it's not only good for people causing trouble, but it's also good for underagers too... it will help limit the amount of underagers going into bars personally.. something like this would probably cost too much money and would probably have a negative impact on the revenues of the companies involved.. thus, forcing the establishment to stop I think it's a good idea, as long as the patrons can make statements that can be sent with the information about you to other bars... for example.. if some guy starts fighting me and i decide not to let him by forcing him to stop... i get kicked and so does he... i would want to make a statement saying that i got kicked out because this guy was an idiot.. not me as for the bans and not letting people in.. i would assume that it's up to the bar i could see a lot of legal issues arising here though example.. someone gets accused of theft at one bar.. but really didn't steal anything... he tries to go to the next, but they won't let him in because of that... is that a good reason not to let someone in for a public establishment?.. i could see someone bringing in the law in a case like that i do like the fact that it would probably scare a lot of people into not wanting to cause trouble though.. and it would get rid of the thugs and assholes it's kind of funny though, if you think about it. Soon, some of the public world is going to be networked with information about individuals which is obtained by swiping a card. Currently it's basically only government related shit that does this. We aren't too far away from having a chip in our hands that tell everything about us. Last edited by taog; 10-08-2003 at 10:56 PM..

10-09-2003, 06:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
Semi-Normal Insane Location: Christchurch, New Zealand	Being a bar worker myself, I like it. It would be good to see it over here in New Zealand - the less dickheads I have to deal with, the better - but I can't see that happening for a long time, if ever. __________________ I'm not lazy, I'm "motivationally challenged."

10-09-2003, 08:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
troit Transfer Agent Location: NYC	I have a bit of a problem with it -- and I by no means am a trouble maker. The problem with me lies with there being a record of where I've been and how many times I've been there. Not so sure I want big brother to know that every Wednesday night I go to such and such to unwind and have a pop... __________________ I've yet to dephile myself...

10-09-2003, 03:32 PM	#14 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	Cyn, I think that if "some drunk idiot" popped you one and you are not at fault, the bartender/bouncer would recognize that, same as they would if there was no high-tech system. And he, not you, would be placed on the system. The point is that the system will only be as good as the humans that provide the inputs. I like the idea. People seem to regard bars as places they can go and turn into someone else or misbehave. This is a disservice to those who just want to go watch the game and talk with some new people.

10-09-2003, 04:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
canon Upright	Seems like an infringement on my privacy. Fortunately I don't live in Vancouver.

10-09-2003, 05:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
oberon Quadrature Amplitude Modulator Location: Denver	There's a chain around here that's doing the same thing. http://www.purdueexponent.org/interf...&storyid=index Personally, I was wondering when it would happen. People could have set up blacklists without this gadget anyway. __________________ "There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

10-09-2003, 06:10 PM	#18 (permalink)
taog Crazy Location: London, Ontario, Canada	I also think it would be good for people who have been wrongly banned from bars too example... a friend of mine tried to use fake id to get into this one bar many times, many years ago... then he turned legal age, and to this day, years later, some of the bouncers don't let him in. They say he causes shit and that he's a trouble maker, even though he isn't. Sometimes they don't let him in. In this case, he would be allowed in, because he has no real record of causing shit, other than trying to get into the bar when he was underage. I think i am all for this, because they are going to give you rights and not let just random people look at how often you go to the bar. Just because you go to a bar, it doesn't mean that you are drinking every time. I'm sure the only people who will have access to these records are the police, and the bar staff. The bar staff would probably only be able to get the records by swiping your card anyway, so it's not like they can just go and look you up in the system.