Cynthetiq

So my fellow TFPers especially those that are new in college.. what's your opinion on use of affirmative action in respect to college admissions? IMHO it should be like all things, the most qualified person gets the spot, be it housing, job, student. Doesn't matter, most qualified. Period. Otherwise, I see it just like this SMU bakesale.

link

Texas University Shuts Down Bake Sale

By Associated Press

September 24, 2003, 11:17 PM EDT

DALLAS -- Southern Methodist University shut down a bake sale Wednesday in which cookies were offered for sale at different prices, depending on the buyer's race or gender.

The sale was organized by the Young Conservatives of Texas, who said it was intended as a protest of affirmative action.

A sign said white males had to pay $1 for a cookie. The price was 75 cents for white women, 50 cents for Hispanics and 25 cents for blacks.

Members of the conservative group said they meant no offense and were only trying to protest the use of race or gender as a factor in college admissions.

Similar sales have been held by College Republican chapters at colleges in at least five other states since February.

A black student filed a complaint with SMU, saying the sale was offensive. SMU officials said they halted the event after 45 minutes because it created a potentially unsafe situation.

"This was not an issue about free speech," Tim Moore, director of the SMU student center, said in a story for Thursday's edition of The Dallas Morning News. "It was really an issue where we had a hostile environment being created."

The sale drew a crowd outside the student center and several students engaged in a shouting match, Moore said.

David C. Rushing, 23, a law student and chairman of Young Conservatives of Texas at SMU and for the state, said the event didn't get out of hand. At most, a dozen students gathered around the table of cookies and Rice Krispies treats, he said.

"We copied what's been done at multiple campuses around the country to illustrate our opinion of affirmative action and how we think it's unfair," he said.

Matt Houston, a 19-year-old sophomore, called the group's price list offensive.

"My reaction was disgust because of the ignorance of some SMU students," said Houston, who is black. "They were arguing that affirmative action was solely based on race. It's not based on race. It's based on bringing a diverse community to a certain organization."

The group sold three cookies during its protest, raising $1.50.

In June, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled universities could use race as a factor in admissions under limited conditions. In Texas, universities had been banned from using race as a factor under a 1996 decision by a lower court.

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erion

I simply do not have enough words to describe my ire at this being shut down.

It was ok to protest for equality of race and gender when certain groups were getting the shaft, but it's not ok to protest against preferential treatment now that those who were once being wronged can be perceived as having the advantages.

I'm not saying one side or the other is right, I just think it ludicrous that a bake sale was shut down for being racist. Hasn't anyone in this country heard of the 1st Amendment?

Besides which, why would you bitch about having to pay 75% less for cookies?

johnnymysto

I disagree. This is exactly about free speech. It's a protest organized in a thoughtful, visual way. I also think it makes perfect sense. I agree with Cynthetiq - the most qualified applicant should get the whatever. I worked somewhere where one of the coworkers was OBVIOUSLY filling a 'token' position, and this person was a terrible worker. So there's affirmative action at work for you.

And how about all the other protests that go on all over the country that actually DO turn into violent affairs? They're allowed to exist all the time. This one is no different, especially since it DIDN'T turn violent.

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The_Dude

It's a methodist university for god's sakes!

we have laws and we have to follow them. i'm pretty sure that selling merchandise at different prices according to race & sex is discrimination and in blatant vioaltion of the law.

affirmative action is also descrimination, but it's legal descrimination.

btw, i'm opposed to aff. action.

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Cynthetiq

I guess you've not been to the hair salon or dry cleaners. They do it day in and day out, in CLEAR and blatant violation of the laws you tout.

All of those have inherent discriminatory pricing structures across America.

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JBX

Ha, this "Bake Sale" shows how ludicrous affirmative action is. The truth hurts.

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Lebell

If there is something to be offended at, it's the notion that a less deserving student should be admitted to college over a more deserving student based on the color of his/her skin.

To bad SMU can't see that.

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Fenster

affirmative action = racism

erion

If I were one of the groups who benefit from affirmative action (WASP here) I would take offense at the thought that I wasn't good enough to get the (Job/scholarship/house/whatever) based on my own merits.

Affirmative action is worse than plain racism, because it's a legally recognized and accepted way to treat one group more favorably than another. Racism by any other name would smell as shitty, or something.

floonine

I can't help but agree that affirmative action could very well lead away from social integration. Anybody who actually thought their only motive was to sell baked goods at different prices needs to stop living in the 1950s

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Loki

heh, it doesnt say anywhere that the cookies were tasty .


Im going to have to disagree here for the simplest of reasons. When a white male leaves unversity, the jobs that he'll get offered will be of a significantly higher salary than a colored or female counterpart. It therefore makes sense that they should pay more.

And also theres the whole atoning for the "sins of the father" thing.

StormBerlin

It says in the article that the first complaint was by a black man... i dont see the logic, he would be the one to pay the least amount for the "cookies".... (cookies being a metaphor for....)

I hope I'm getting my point across clearly...

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battlemouth

affirmative actions aggrivates me, its not helping anything

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Lebell

Why should you, me, or anyone have to atone for the sins of our fathers?

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Xell101

I feel like punching that guy in the throat.

What the hell does my kid have to do with the reperation to the punchee?

Anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about.

Cynthetiq

Thomas Jefferson said that the new generation should not be burdened by previous generations.

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eribrav

Math geek here.

I appreciate the other posters comments about the important issues the sale raised.

I however found myself focused on exactly to whom they sold the three cookies to generate the $1.50.

My money is on a white woman and 2 Hispanics.

Anyone care to speculate?
Anyone really know?

Ganguro

i like affirmative action in theory..
i se it as something that could potentially level the playing feild, but in practivce it's not used that way at all. I think it's human nature to be miffed if someone helps another group that you dont belong in. If affirmativbe action was set up to help caucasians.. we wouldnt be having this discussion; but in turn it creates an unnatural balance in the marketplace.

While i would like some of the "behind the scenes racism" to be removed from the workplace, I dont want to be someone's pet monkey because they had to fill a quota.

Mael

i also like AA in theory. and i think at one time it was definatly necessary. but in today's society, it's outdated. i think it should be changed to socio-economic status rather than race. i'm sorry, but if my kid, wheni have a kid, doesn't get into his choice of school because a "underrepresented minority" that went to a good high school took a spot he could have taken but didn't get because of AA, then i'd be livid. a poor white kid has a lot more in common, especially when it comes to academic difficulties, witha poor blackkid then a rich black kid has with a poorblack kid. as it is, my best friend is an indian (dots, not feathers) and thus is not considered an "underrepresented" minority and AA doesn't do anything for him. which i think i a crock. either all minorities should benefit or none. yay selective racism!!!

jwoody

Could someone please explain to a foreigner how race can affect your dry cleaning.

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Cynthetiq

not race discrimination but sex discrimination... a woman's blouse costs more than a man's shirt, EVEN if they are the exact same style cut. same for hair salons...

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jwoody

Cheers, Cynthetiq, the reason behind it is that women are prepared to pay more for things like dry cleaning and haircuts.

I'd better lay low for a while after a comment like that.

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Cynthetiq

my wife isn't and she's quite annoyed when I go in and drop off her shirts it's one price and when she does it's another. We had to talk to the owner and let him know we would not tolerate such practices.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

erion

$1 from a white male
+$.25 each from two black men.

$.50 each Three Hispanics

$.75 white female
$.50 Hispanic Male
$.25 Black male

They're the only way it works out.

Gortexfogg

I agree that the bake sale was a great way to protest affirmative action. I think the fact that they sold $1.50 says a lot, since they had to sell to at least one minority.

Personally, I'd like to think that our society has evolved to the point where we will choose people based on their abilities, not race, creed, sex ect without doing it to please the government. Affirmative action was a good idea, in fact it was a great idea. But, it's come to the point where it's just not fitting to have it in use today.

sipsake

If they wanted to push the point even further, ALL of the cookies should have been white sugar cookies. Lord knows diversity has no place in an institution of higher learning.

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JStrider

im all for a diverse student population...

but i also dont think race should be a determining factor in school admissions (or anything else for that matter)...

i would not be pleased if someone who was less academically qualified had gotten my spot, because he/she was part of a minority...

and yah Texas Tech, my school has also started using race in determining admissions...

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Midlandmadman

could a white guy send a black friend up there to get discount cookies??? mmmmmmmmmmmm cookies..................

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galaxygirl

Funny, I went there too. It could have been a white male and two blacks.

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The_Dude

UT was gonna start that, but they just found out that they had to publish changes for at least a year before actually implementing them. So, class of 05 would be the first to be affected here.

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WhoaitsZ

absolutely beautiful. social experimentation is soooo cool to me. and look how it turned out.

if the kids got paid i'd say give them a raise.

affirmative action is a little less cool when the tables are turned, eh? isn't truth just a bitch?

Cynthetiq

you can have a Black Pride, Mexican Pride, Asian Pride... but when you call it White Pride... you can't.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

water_boy1999

Couple examples of how Affirmative Action doesn't....or shouldn't work:

When I was in high school, a girl in my physics class was one of the worst students in school. She had a 1.2 GPA and she was admitted into Stanford because she was an American Indian. She slept during class, didn't participate in sports, no extra curricular activities, yet was accepted into Stanford. I graduated with honors, participated in school sports, was a member and chair of several academic clubs, etc....but wasn't admitted to Stanford.

A good family friend workd as a Shift manager for a road construction contracting outfit. He was forced to bring in a more diverse workforce. He told us stories of how several ethnic groups were brought onto his team, none could speak english, and it turned out to be a nightmare communication wise, not only that but it was more dangerous for his crew because he could not effectively communicate orders to his team. It took much longer to complete their contracts in a timely manner and the quality of work decreased.

Again, in high school, there was the Spanish Club, the Indian Club, the Afro-American club, the Vietnamese club, etc.....but when a good friend of mine wanted to start her Aryan club, the school administration almost expelled her because they said it was unethical to allow a white club because whites were not considered a minority group.

I am highly opposed to AA. I think the general concept of making a more diverse environment is good, but to shove it down our throats the way our government has done is not acceptable. In the majority of the U.S., people of different races, for the most part, stick to areas of their own race. Sure, there are diverse neighborhoods out there, but the majority seems to stick within their own areas of culture. If there is no effort to intermix neighborhoods and make it a more diverse environment for all, how does our government think it will work in the workforce, or school, etc...? AA is used because there are conditions of income class that don't allow some cultures to have the same benefits as others. Is this unfair? Or is is it the fault of those people who don't strive to get out of the financial hardships they are in? AA was created so all people will have an equal opportunity to pursue equal employment, education and quality of life. But all it ended up creating is a pissed off white culture, an unbalance in skills transferrence in the workforce, and bias on educational acceptance. In short, AA blows!

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filtherton

Golly, it is so hard to be a white person in america. We should eliminate all affirmative action. We should really try to eliminate the kind of affirmative action that allowed G.W. Bush to get into yale and harvard. Or the kind that allows miorities to get pulled over at a higher rate than whites, even though white folks are more likely to be breaking the law.

Peryn

i love when people cite traffic violations as racism. Have you ever tried driving at night and be able to tell if its a white guy, a mexican, and indian, a black guy, etc? Its pretty damned difficult. From behind, beleive it or not, our heads all pretty much look the same. Now, go 5,6,7 or so carlengths back, where they usually are when they flip on the lights. Try it some night then tell me its blatand discrimination. Plus how do you know whites are more likely to break teh law? Because they said so in a poll? Maybe they do, and maybe they are smart enough to look around and not get caught when they do it.

I think they bake sale really didn't simulate AA too well, but the point got across. Reverse discrimination is far more of an issue now than discriminating against the minorities.

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Lebell

You have failed to address any of the points brought up, instead pointing out other instances of racist behavior as if this somehow justifies more racism.

Not a very strong argument in your favor, IMHO.

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The_Dude

It's brown pride!

Me and a couple of hispanic friends had an unofficial thing like this going (just for fun though)

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filtherton

I wasn't trying justify racism. I said that we should eliminate all kinds of affirmative action, including the examples i provided. Are you saying such things don't occur? Are you just for the elimination of affirmative action that benefits nonwhites? I hope not. I just think that it is strange that for many white people, the only form of discrimination that they acknowledge is the kind that they don't benefit from.

For example:

In minneapolis, a report was just released by The Council on Crime and Justice and The Institute on Race & Poverty of the University of Minnesota Law School.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
If that link doesn't work, type "racial profiling in minneapolis" into google and you'll find it.
The study concludes that minneapolis police stop black and latino drivers at rates significantly higher than expected based on their proportion of the city's driving age population. They stopped american indian, asian and whites less than expected. Discretionary search rates were twice as high for latino, black, and american indian drivers than they were for whites, despite the fact that minneapolis police were more likely to find contraband during discretionary searches of white drives than any other race/ethnicity.

Now, i guess maybe a lot of people were already suspicious that this kind've stuff has been going on for a while, but many people, such as peryn, can't understand why anyone would think the cops might be racist. I just think it is ironic that the same people who cry foul when it comes to affimative action are afraid to acknowledge that the playing field isn't level. Or maybe us white folk are just "smart enough" to not get caught. I love the implication in that sentence.

Are you satisfied now with my points?

Lebell

/shrug

It isn't required that I be satisfied with them, but I'm glad to see that you do not endorse one wrong to 'right' another wrong.

And I agree with you that racism exists among white people as well as among hispanics and blacks and that it is wrong regardless.

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Sledge

One thing about being a minority is that you have to wonder exactly why things are happening to you the way they are. Racism isn't an unreasonable guess sometimes.

Granted, if you've got any brains at all you'll know when it's a possibility and when it isn't. But please don't paint it as if all minorities blame all of their social problems on racial discrimination. That's a very pervasive stereotype that takes attention away from where it should be - racism is more real than most people think it is (even today, yes), and we need to keep working to minimize it.

I don't know how I feel about affirmative action, because it seems so blatantly wrong on one level, and yet... well, consider this. Stop enforcing it and black and hispanic attendance at the average university will decrease significantly. Won't that inevitably do weird things to the American population in the future?