China's old-world farming practices possible culprit in virus development (SARS) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sixate · 04-25-2003, 12:56 PM

LINKY

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Did SARS mutate
from duck, pig feces?
China's old-world farming practices possible culprit

Posted: April 25, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Paul Sperry
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

The last three influenza pandemics have all originated in Asia – the 1957 Asian flu, the 1968 Hong Kong flu and now this year's SARS flu, which also has been traced to China's southern Guangdong province, which includes Hong Kong.

Why do these virulent new viral strains come out of South China?

Some virologists implicate the farming practices common there. In southern provinces of China, farmers raise hens, ducks, pigs and fish in one integrated system. They use the droppings and leftover food from the pigs to feed the fowl. The fowl droppings, in turn, help fertilize the fish ponds.

While it sounds like a perfect system, raising three different species with no waste, the species may be exchanging viruses among themselves through the feces.

The birds can pass avian flu viruses to swine, where the two viruses co-mingle and form a new strain that is passed back to the farmers, whose immune system cannot fight the new virus, as the theory goes. The pigs, which have a genetic make-up more like humans, act as the mixing vessel.

The 1968 Hong Kong flu strain, at least, was traced back to ducks. That flu and its cousins have killed more than 250,000 Americans, public-health officials estimate.

British zoologist Ernest Naylor and German virologist Christoph Scholtissek first made the connection and warned of future superflu outbreaks from such Chinese agricultural techniques in a 1988 article in Nature.

Regarding SARS, "the most likely scenario is that it has been circulating in another species in southern China, and human beings came in contact with it this past autumn, perhaps in an agricultural setting," said Dr. Stephen Morse, author of "Emerging Viruses." "It is interesting that this part of Asia is the same geographic area from which most known influenza pandemics have arisen."

The federal Centers for Disease Control is not ready to commit to the theory that China's farming practices are to blame for SARS, although some say the reluctance has more to do with international politics and diplomacy than medicine.

"I can't confirm that it has anything to do with the agricultural industry," said CDC spokeswoman Karen Hunter in a phone interview from Atlanta. "We don't have any concrete reasons why influenza sometimes comes out of Asia."

She notes that major viruses have mutated outside of Asia, too. For example, the last century's first flu pandemic, called the "Spanish flu," which struck in 1918, came out of Spain, though recent research has traced the virus strain back to China.

"Even though the last two flu pandemics did come out of Asia," she said, "Asia is not the only place where we see flu viruses mutating and changing."

But one U.S. public-health official, an epidemiologist, says the CDC has long acknowledged the theory's merits.

"Certainly such old-world agriculture is not the best of ideas," he said. "The primary reason we in the U.S. are concerned about proper disposal of human and animal wastes is for reasons of public health, not for aesthetic ones."

He added they don't yet understand that in mainland China, which is still run by a communist government.

Chinese dissident Harry Wu says Chinese farmers also feed human waste to pets, whose waste is fed to livestock.

"It is very common in China, in the rural areas, for the dog to clean up the human bowel (movement)," he said in a WorldNetDaily interview. "You know, the baby makes bowel on the floor (and) the dog will come right in and eat it up."

"The whole environment is like that," Wu added.

He also cited the Chinese people's indiscriminate, omnivorous diet as a possible concern.

"I don't know if these animals are one of the reasons (for SARS), but it is true in the southern part of China that they eat all kinds of animals," Wu said. "We make a joke that they eat everything that flies except for airplanes, and they eat everything with legs except the tables – snails, turtles, chickens, raccoons. Even some right now are eating the fetus, unborn babies, as a delicacy. That is cannibalism."

Wu notes recent speculation by a Russian scientist who posits that the SARS virus is man-made, invented by a Chinese military lab as a biochemical weapon.

"I'm not sure about that," he said, "but I wouldn't be surprised" if it's true.

Interestingly, influenza fatality rates are virtually unknown. That's because there are no concrete figures for the number of people who get the flu each year to calculate against the number of reported deaths, Hunter says. Many who come down with the flu don't visit the doctor, and therefore don't show up in the statistics.

But generally, the fatality rate for the common flu is thought to be about 15 percent, which may be inflated given the incomplete data for the denominator. The fatality rate for SARS, by comparison, is estimated to be running between 4 percent and 10 percent so far.

World's King · 04-25-2003, 01:09 PM

[sarcasm]That's right blame it on those wacky Chinese.

It bet it was that fat guy that they wroships fault.[/sarcasm]

PHYcos · 04-26-2003, 05:48 PM

Amazing, I can't believe that the Chinese were able to suppress SARS for so long. I wonder how it really got out into the world. Ireally hope I don't get it, cause it would seriously suck.

I2icky · 04-26-2003, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PHYcos
EDITED BY SPLEEN

i hope that was sarcasm

Zello · 04-26-2003, 07:38 PM

Interesting article. I didn't realize it was possible for "two viruses co-mingle and form a new strain". Thanks for the article sixate.

gibber71 · 04-26-2003, 07:59 PM

My money is on the raw monkey brains that are eaten in that culture.

Macheath · 04-26-2003, 08:23 PM

Cannibals of the orient?

At first I thought I was reading program notes for a 19th century London Geographers' convention. The I saw it was WorldNetDaily.

I wonder if they eat Fiji mermaids too? I hear they're quite a delicacy and there's one born every minute.

charlesesl · 04-26-2003, 09:21 PM

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He added they don't yet understand that in mainland China, which is still run by a communist government.

Here we go again. An arrogent, rightous white guy writes an aritcle on a China, a land which he has never visited, critizing an idealogy which he know nothing about (maybe in propogandas)

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Chinese dissident Harry Wu says Chinese farmers also feed human waste to pets, whose waste is fed to livestock.

The critibility of this guy (Harry Wu) is highly questionable. Where is he from? Has he even been to china?
IMO, his english first name probly tells that he is a banada (ABC) who probly hates his chinese background (sort of like Amy Tan-- that bitch)

Quote:

"It is very common in China, in the rural areas, for the dog to clean up the human bowel (movement)," he said in a WorldNetDaily interview. "You know, the baby makes bowel on the floor (and) the dog will come right in and eat it up."

WTF, when did this guy last came to china, 20 years ago?
I have live in china from 1985 - 1997 and i never heard of dog cleaning up human fecies. Ok, maybe deep within a mountain range.

Quote:

"The whole environment is like that," Wu added.

False genearlizations made by some guy we never heard of.

Quote:

He also cited the Chinese people's indiscriminate, omnivorous diet as a possible concern. "I don't know if these animals are one of the reasons (for SARS), but it is true in the southern part of China that they eat all kinds of animals," Even some right now are eating the fetus, unborn babies, as a delicacy. That is cannibalism."

DO NOT GENERALIZE HONGERS AS THE ENTIRE CHINESE POPULATION!!!!

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Wu said. "We make a joke that they eat everything that flies except for airplanes, and they eat everything with legs except the tables – snails, turtles, chickens, raccoons.

RACIST

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eat unborn babies

only the japinese do that

Quote:

Wu notes recent speculation by a Russian scientist who posits that the SARS virus is man-made, invented by a Chinese military lab as a biochemical weapon.

This guy just hates china

Call me an extrem chinese nationist (I sort of am) but this whole story is extremely biased if not racist. I really wish they would not use the words of some american born chinese punk with no pride in his ancestory.
Btw, if anyone know this guy please tell me. I ll have him wacked.

orbital · 04-26-2003, 09:44 PM

It is not entirely inconceivable that the seemingly innocuous and economically astute practises of Chinese farmers have served as the spawning grounds of mutated viruses.

What we have here is a theory founded on the basis of speculative reasoning, not racism.

phoenix1002 · 04-26-2003, 10:26 PM

Some of the things that he mentions seem to be reasonable. I don't have much trouble seeing some things happening in any rural area, not just in China. So, it seems like a reasonable speculation that the less-than-perfect hygene of the Chinese farmers might have somehow resulted in a mutated version of the flu. I don't see this as an attack on China, I see it as an attempt to figure out where this disease originated, so they can work on finding a cure.

Macheath · 04-26-2003, 10:39 PM

I don't think the west has anything to crow about anyway considering the BSE/mad cow debacle of the last couple of years.

Scientists can't even say with confidence exactly how many British may be infected due to anglo farming practices.

No matter what or who supposedly is to "blame" for SARS, we humans can never separate ourselves from the biosphere.

04-25-2003, 01:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	[sarcasm]That's right blame it on those wacky Chinese. It bet it was that fat guy that they wroships fault.[/sarcasm] __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

04-26-2003, 05:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
PHYcos Crazy	Amazing, I can't believe that the Chinese were able to suppress SARS for so long. I wonder how it really got out into the world. Ireally hope I don't get it, cause it would seriously suck. __________________ -All women are 2 drinks away from a GIRL-ON-GIRL adventure!- Last edited by meanSpleen; 04-26-2003 at 07:28 PM..

04-26-2003, 07:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
Zello Crazy Location: Vincennes, IN	Interesting article. I didn't realize it was possible for "two viruses co-mingle and form a new strain". Thanks for the article sixate. __________________ Sorry, you can not add yourself to your own list.

04-26-2003, 10:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
phoenix1002 Psycho Location: lost	Some of the things that he mentions seem to be reasonable. I don't have much trouble seeing some things happening in any rural area, not just in China. So, it seems like a reasonable speculation that the less-than-perfect hygene of the Chinese farmers might have somehow resulted in a mutated version of the flu. I don't see this as an attack on China, I see it as an attempt to figure out where this disease originated, so they can work on finding a cure. __________________ I'd rather be climbing... I approach college much like a recovering alcoholic--one day at a time...

04-26-2003, 07:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	My money is on the raw monkey brains that are eaten in that culture.

04-26-2003, 08:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	Cannibals of the orient? At first I thought I was reading program notes for a 19th century London Geographers' convention. The I saw it was WorldNetDaily. I wonder if they eat Fiji mermaids too? I hear they're quite a delicacy and there's one born every minute.

04-26-2003, 09:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
orbital Upright	It is not entirely inconceivable that the seemingly innocuous and economically astute practises of Chinese farmers have served as the spawning grounds of mutated viruses. What we have here is a theory founded on the basis of speculative reasoning, not racism.

04-26-2003, 10:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I don't think the west has anything to crow about anyway considering the BSE/mad cow debacle of the last couple of years. Scientists can't even say with confidence exactly how many British may be infected due to anglo farming practices. No matter what or who supposedly is to "blame" for SARS, we humans can never separate ourselves from the biosphere.