"Hip Hop Holds Blacks Back." - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

billege · 08-05-2003, 11:22 PM

I found the original here.

Information about John H. McWhorter, the author, is available at his mini-bio page.
As it may be a point of interest, he is a black man.

This is rather long, but it is well thought out, well written, and I think it's rather thought provoking.

Without getting in to it too much, right now, I agree with this guy.

Quote:

<i>How Hip-Hop Holds Blacks Back

John H. McWhorter</i>

Not long ago, I was having lunch in a KFC in Harlem, sitting near eight African-American boys, aged about 14. Since 1) it was 1:30 on a school day, 2) they were carrying book bags, and 3) they seemed to be in no hurry, I assumed they were skipping school. They were extremely loud and unruly, tossing food at one another and leaving it on the floor.

Black people ran the restaurant and made up the bulk of the customers, but it was hard to see much healthy “black community” here. After repeatedly warning the boys to stop throwing food and keep quiet, the manager finally told them to leave. The kids ignored her. Only after she called a male security guard did they start slowly making their way out, tauntingly circling the restaurant before ambling off. These teens clearly weren’t monsters, but they seemed to consider themselves exempt from public norms of behavior—as if they had begun to check out of mainstream society.

What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.

Many writers and thinkers see a kind of informed political engagement, even a revolutionary potential, in rap and hip-hop. They couldn’t be more wrong. By reinforcing the stereotypes that long hindered blacks, and by teaching young blacks that a thuggish adversarial stance is the properly “authentic” response to a presumptively racist society, rap retards black success.

The venom that suffuses rap had little place in black popular culture—indeed, in black attitudes—before the 1960s. The hip-hop ethos can trace its genealogy to the emergence in that decade of a black ideology that equated black strength and authentic black identity with a militantly adversarial stance toward American society. In the angry new mood, captured by Malcolm X’s upraised fist, many blacks (and many more white liberals) began to view black crime and violence as perfectly natural, even appropriate, responses to the supposed dehumanization and poverty inflicted by a racist society. Briefly, this militant spirit, embodied above all in the Black Panthers, infused black popular culture, from the plays of LeRoi Jones to “blaxploitation” movies, like Melvin Van Peebles’s Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song, which celebrated the black criminal rebel as a hero.

But blaxploitation and similar genres burned out fast. The memory of whites blatantly stereotyping blacks was too recent for the typecasting in something like Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song not to offend many blacks. Observed black historian Lerone Bennett: “There is a certain grim white humor in the fact that the black marches and demonstrations of the 1960s reached artistic fulfillment” with “provocative and ultimately insidious reincarnations of all the Sapphires and Studds of yesteryear.”

Early rap mostly steered clear of the Sapphires and Studds, beginning not as a growl from below but as happy party music. The first big rap hit, the Sugar Hill Gang’s 1978 “Rapper’s Delight,” featured a catchy bass groove that drove the music forward, as the jolly rapper celebrated himself as a ladies’ man and a great dancer. Soon, kids across America were rapping along with the nonsense chorus:

I said a hip, hop, the hippie, the hippie,
to the hip-hip hop, ah you don’t stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie, say
up jump the boogie,
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat.
A string of ebullient raps ensued in the months ahead. At the time, I assumed it was a harmless craze, certain to run out of steam soon.

But rap took a dark turn in the early 1980s, as this “bubble gum” music gave way to a “gangsta” style that picked up where blaxploitation left off. Now top rappers began to write edgy lyrics celebrating street warfare or drugs and promiscuity. Grandmaster Flash’s ominous 1982 hit, “The Message,” with its chorus, “It’s like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from going under,” marked the change in sensibility. It depicted ghetto life as profoundly desolate:

You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You’ll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.
Music critics fell over themselves to praise “The Message,” treating it as the poetry of the streets—as the elite media has characterized hip-hop ever since. The song’s grim fatalism struck a chord; twice, I’ve heard blacks in audiences for talks on race cite the chorus to underscore a point about black victimhood. So did the warning it carried: “Don’t push me, ’cause I’m close to the edge,” menacingly raps Melle Mel. The ultimate message of “The Message”—that ghetto life is so hopeless that an explosion of violence is both justified and imminent—would become a hip-hop mantra in the years ahead.

The angry, oppositional stance that “The Message” reintroduced into black popular culture transformed rap from a fad into a multi-billion-dollar industry that sold more than 80 million records in the U.S. in 2002—nearly 13 percent of all recordings sold. To rap producers like Russell Simmons, earlier black pop was just sissy music. He despised the “soft, unaggressive music (and non-threatening images)” of artists like Michael Jackson or Luther Vandross. “So the first chance I got,” he says, “I did exactly the opposite.”

In the two decades since “The Message,” hip-hop performers have churned out countless rap numbers that celebrate a ghetto life of unending violence and criminality. Schooly D’s “PSK What Does It Mean?” is a case in point:

Copped my pistols, jumped into the ride.
Got at the bar, copped some flack,
Copped some cheeba-cheeba, it wasn’t wack.
Got to the place, and who did I see?
A sucka-ass nigga tryin to sound like me.
Put my pistol up against his head—
I said, “Sucka-ass nigga, I should shoot you dead.”
The protagonist of a rhyme by KRS-One (a hip-hop star who would later speak out against rap violence) actually pulls the trigger:

Knew a drug dealer by the name of Peter—
Had to buck him down with my 9 millimeter.

Police forces became marauding invaders in the gangsta-rap imagination. The late West Coast rapper Tupac Shakur expressed the attitude:

Ya gotta know how to shake the snakes, nigga,
’Cause the police love to break a nigga,
Send him upstate ’cause they straight up hate the nigga.
Shakur’s anti-police tirade seems tame, however, compared with Ice-T’s infamous “Cop Killer”:

I got my black shirt on.
I got my black gloves on.
I got my ski mask on.
This shit’s been too long.
I got my 12-gauge sawed-off.
I got my headlights turned off.
I’m ’bout to bust some shots off.
I’m ’bout to dust some cops off. . . .
I’m ’bout to kill me somethin’
A pig stopped me for nuthin’!
Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, fuck police brutality! . . .
Die, die, die pig, die!
Fuck the police! . . .
Fuck the police yeah!
Rap also began to offer some of the most icily misogynistic music human history has ever known. Here’s Schooly D again:

Tell you now, brother, this ain’t no joke,
She got me to the crib, she laid me on the bed,
I fucked her from my toes to the top of my head.
I finally realized the girl was a whore,
Gave her ten dollars, she asked me for some more.
Jay-Z’s “Is That Yo Bitch?” mines similar themes:

I don’t love ’em, I fuck ’em.
I don’t chase ’em, I duck ’em.
I replace ’em with another one. . . .
She be all on my dick.
Or, as N.W.A. (an abbreviation of “Niggers with Attitude”) tersely sums up the hip-hop worldview: “Life ain’t nothin’ but bitches and money.”

Rap’s musical accompaniment mirrors the brutality of rap lyrics in its harshness and repetition. Simmons fashions his recordings in contempt for euphony. “What we used for melody was implied melody, and what we used for music was sounds—beats, scratches, stuff played backward, nothing pretty or sweet.” The success of hip-hop has resulted in an ironic reversal. In the seventies, screaming hard rock was in fashion among young whites, while sweet, sinuous funk and soul ruled the black airwaves—a difference I was proud of. But in the eighties, rock quieted down, and black music became the assault on the ears and soul. Anyone who grew up in urban America during the eighties won’t soon forget the young men strolling down streets, blaring this sonic weapon from their boom boxes, with defiant glares daring anyone to ask them to turn it down.

Hip-hop exploded into popular consciousness at the same time as the music video, and rappers were soon all over MTV, reinforcing in images the ugly world portrayed in rap lyrics. Video after video features rap stars flashing jewelry, driving souped-up cars, sporting weapons, angrily gesticulating at the camera, and cavorting with interchangeable, mindlessly gyrating, scantily clad women.

Of course, not all hip-hop is belligerent or profane—entire CDs of gang-bangin’, police-baiting, woman-bashing invective would get old fast to most listeners. But it’s the nastiest rap that sells best, and the nastiest cuts that make a career. As I write, the top ten best-selling hip-hop recordings are 50 Cent (currently with the second-best-selling record in the nation among all musical genres), Bone Crusher, Lil’ Kim, Fabolous, Lil’ Jon and the East Side Boyz, Cam’ron Presents the Diplomats, Busta Rhymes, Scarface, Mobb Deep, and Eminem. Every one of these groups or performers personifies willful, staged opposition to society—Lil’ Jon and crew even regale us with a song called “Don’t Give a Fuck”—and every one celebrates the ghetto as “where it’s at.” Thus, the occasional dutiful songs in which a rapper urges men to take responsibility for their kids or laments senseless violence are mere garnish. Keeping the thug front and center has become the quickest and most likely way to become a star.

No hip-hop luminary has worked harder than Sean “P. Diddy” Combs, the wildly successful rapper, producer, fashion mogul, and CEO of Bad Boy Records, to cultivate a gangsta image—so much so that he’s blurred the line between playing the bad boy and really being one. Combs may have grown up middle-class in Mount Vernon, New York, and even have attended Howard University for a while, but he’s proven he can gang-bang with the worst. Cops charged Combs with possession of a deadly weapon in 1995. In 1999, he faced charges for assaulting a rival record executive. Most notoriously, police charged him that year with firing a gun at a nightclub in response to an insult, injuring three bystanders, and with fleeing the scene with his entourage (including then-pal Jennifer “J. Lo” Lopez). Combs got off, but his young rapper prot&#eacute;g#é Jamal “Shyne” Barrow went to prison for firing the gun.

Combs and his crew are far from alone among rappers in keeping up the connection between “rap and rap sheet,” as critic Kelefa Sanneh artfully puts it. Several prominent rappers, including superstar Tupac Shakur, have gone down in hails of bullets—with other rappers often suspected in the killings. Death Row Records producer Marion “Suge” Knight just finished a five-year prison sentence for assault and federal weapons violations. Current rage 50 Cent flaunts his bullet scars in photos; cops recently arrested him for hiding assault weapons in his car. Of the top ten hip-hop sellers mentioned above, five have had scrapes with the law. In 2000, at least five different fights broke out at the Source Hiphop Awards—intended to be the rap industry’s Grammys. The final brawl, involving up to 100 people in the audience and spilling over onto the stage, shut the ceremony down—right after a video tribute to slain rappers. Small wonder a popular rap website goes by the name rapsheet.com.

Many fans, rappers, producers, and intellectuals defend hip-hop’s violence, both real and imagined, and its misogyny as a revolutionary cry of frustration from disempowered youth. For Simmons, gangsta raps “teach listeners something about the lives of the people who create them and remind them that these people exist.” 50 Cent recently told Vibe magazine, “Mainstream America can look at me and say, ‘That’s the mentality of a young man from the ’hood.’ ” University of Pennsylvania black studies professor Michael Eric Dyson has written a book-length paean to Shakur, praising him for “challenging narrow artistic visions of black identity” and for “artistically exploring the attractions and limits of black moral and social subcultures”—just one of countless fawning treatises on rap published in recent years. The National Council of Teachers of English, recommending the use of hip-hop lyrics in urban public school classrooms (as already happens in schools in Oakland, Los Angeles, and other cities), enthuses that “hip-hop can be used as a bridge linking the seemingly vast span between the streets and the world of academics.”

But we’re sorely lacking in imagination if in 2003—long after the civil rights revolution proved a success, at a time of vaulting opportunity for African Americans, when blacks find themselves at the top reaches of society and politics—we think that it signals progress when black kids rattle off violent, sexist, nihilistic, lyrics, like Russians reciting Pushkin. Some defended blaxploitation pictures as revolutionary, too, but the passage of time has exposed the silliness of such a contention. “The message of Sweetback is that if you can get it together and stand up to the Man, you can win,” Van Peebles once told an interviewer. But win what? All Sweetback did, from what we see in the movie, was avoid jail—and it would be nice to have more useful counsel on overcoming than “kicking the Man’s ass.” Claims about rap’s political potential will look equally gestural in the future. How is it progressive to describe life as nothing but “bitches and money”? Or to tell impressionable black kids, who’d find every door open to them if they just worked hard and learned, that blowing a rival’s head off is “real”? How helpful is rap’s sexism in a community plagued by rampant illegitimacy and an excruciatingly low marriage rate?

The idea that rap is an authentic cry against oppression is all the sillier when you recall that black Americans had lots more to be frustrated about in the past but never produced or enjoyed music as nihilistic as 50 Cent or N.W.A. On the contrary, black popular music was almost always affirmative and hopeful. Nor do we discover music of such violence in places of great misery like Ethiopia or the Congo—unless it’s imported American hip-hop.

Given the hip-hop world’s reflexive alienation, it’s no surprise that its explicit political efforts, such as they are, are hardly progressive. Simmons has founded the “Hip-Hop Summit Action Network” to bring rap stars and fans together in order to forge a “bridge between hip-hop and politics.” But HSAN’s policy positions are mostly tired bromides. Sticking with the long-discredited idea that urban schools fail because of inadequate funding from the stingy, racist white Establishment, for example, HSAN joined forces with the teachers’ union to protest New York mayor Bloomberg’s proposed education budget for its supposed lack of generosity. HSAN has also stuck it to President Bush for invading Iraq. And it has vociferously protested the affixing of advisory labels on rap CDs that warn parents about the obscene language inside. Fighting for rappers’ rights to obscenity: that’s some kind of revolution!

Okay, maybe rap isn’t progressive in any meaningful sense, some observers will admit; but isn’t it just a bunch of kids blowing off steam and so nothing to worry about? I think that response is too easy. With music videos, DVD players, Walkmans, the Internet, clothes, and magazines all making hip-hop an accompaniment to a person’s entire existence, we need to take it more seriously. In fact, I would argue that it is seriously harmful to the black community.

The rise of nihilistic rap has mirrored the breakdown of community norms among inner-city youth over the last couple of decades. It was just as gangsta rap hit its stride that neighborhood elders began really to notice that they’d lost control of young black men, who were frequently drifting into lives of gang violence and drug dealing. Well into the seventies, the ghetto was a shabby part of town, where, despite unemployment and rising illegitimacy, a healthy number of people were doing their best to “keep their heads above water,” as the theme song of the old black sitcom Good Times put it.

By the eighties, the ghetto had become a ruleless war zone, where black people were their own worst enemies. It would be silly, of course, to blame hip-hop for this sad downward spiral, but by glamorizing life in the “war zone,” it has made it harder for many of the kids stuck there to extricate themselves. Seeing a privileged star like Sean Combs behave like a street thug tells those kids that there’s nothing more authentic than ghetto pathology, even when you’ve got wealth beyond imagining.

The attitude and style expressed in the hip-hop “identity” keeps blacks down. Almost all hip-hop, gangsta or not, is delivered with a cocky, confrontational cadence that is fast becoming—as attested to by the rowdies at KFC—a common speech style among young black males. Similarly, the arm-slinging, hand-hurling gestures of rap performers have made their way into many young blacks’ casual gesticulations, becoming integral to their self-expression. The problem with such speech and mannerisms is that they make potential employers wary of young black men and can impede a young black’s ability to interact comfortably with co-workers and customers. The black community has gone through too much to sacrifice upward mobility to the passing kick of an adversarial hip-hop “identity.”

On a deeper level, there is something truly unsettling and tragic about the fact that blacks have become the main agents in disseminating debilitating—dare I say racist—images of themselves. Rap guru Russell Simmons claims that “the coolest stuff about American culture—be it language, dress, or attitude—comes from the underclass. Always has and always will.” Yet back in the bad old days, blacks often complained—with some justification—that the media too often depicted blacks simply as uncivilized. Today, even as television and films depict blacks at all levels of success, hip-hop sends the message that blacks are . . . uncivilized. I find it striking that the cry-racism crowd doesn’t condemn it.

For those who insist that even the invisible structures of society reinforce racism, the burden of proof should rest with them to explain just why hip-hop’s bloody and sexist lyrics and videos and the criminal behavior of many rappers wouldn’t have a powerfully negative effect upon whites’ conception of black people.

Sadly, some black leaders just don’t seem to care what lesson rap conveys. Consider Savannah’s black high schools, which hosted the local rapper Camoflauge as a guest speaker several times before his murder earlier this year. Here’s a representative lyric:

Gimme tha keys to tha car, I’m ready for war.
When we ride on these niggas smoke that ass like a ’gar.
Hit your block with a Glock, clear the set with a Tech . . . .
You think I’m jokin, see if you laughing when tha pistol be smokin—
Leave you head split wide open
And you bones get broken. . . .
More than a few of the Concerned Black People inviting this “artist” to speak to the impressionable youth of Savannah would presumably be the first to cry out about “how whites portray blacks in the media.”

Far from decrying the stereotypes rampant in rap’s present-day blaxploitation, many hip-hop defenders pull the “whitey-does-it-too” trick. They point to the Godfather movies or The Sopranos as proof that violence and vulgarity are widespread in American popular culture, so that singling out hip-hop for condemnation is simply bigotry. Yet such a defense is pitifully weak. No one really looks for a way of life to emulate or a political project to adopt in The Sopranos. But for many of its advocates, hip-hop, with its fantasies of revolution and community and politics, is more than entertainment. It forms a bedrock of young black identity.

Nor will it do to argue that hip-hop isn’t “black” music, since most of its buyers are white, or because the “hip-hop revolution” is nominally open to people of all colors. That whites buy more hip-hop recordings than blacks do is hardly surprising, given that whites vastly outnumber blacks nationwide. More to the point, anyone who claims that rap isn’t black music will need to reconcile that claim with the widespread wariness among blacks of white rappers like Eminem, accused of “stealing our music and giving it back to us.”

At 2 AM on the New York subway not long ago, I saw another scene—more dispiriting than my KFC encounter with the rowdy rapping teens—that captures the essence of rap’s destructiveness. A young black man entered the car and began to rap loudly—profanely, arrogantly—with the usual wild gestures. This went on for five irritating minutes. When no one paid attention, he moved on to another car, all the while spouting his doggerel. This was what this young black man presented as his message to the world—his oratory, if you will.

Anyone who sees such behavior as a path to a better future—anyone, like Professor Dyson, who insists that hip-hop is an urgent “critique of a society that produces the need for the thug persona”—should step back and ask himself just where, exactly, the civil rights–era blacks might have gone wrong in lacking a hip-hop revolution. They created the world of equality, striving, and success I live and thrive in.

Hip-hop creates nothing.

As to the "style and attitude" of hip hop:
I'm all for individuality, but building an image based on confrontation and agressiveness is not going to endear one to strangers.

I've never thought that the "I hate whitey" message was very helpful. I've thought for some time that most rap is beating a dead horse when it portrays the inner city as bleak.
To that, I say "No shit. Did you have anything else to say?"

I gained loads of respect for Nas, and his rap about being what you want to be. (Sorry, I don't know the song's name, and I'm only 90% sure it was Nas.) That was a positive rap. I've never heard such a thing. There were even bits of black history in it.
I can't believe how many black people, know next to nothing about thier own history.
I've read Roots, the autobiography of Malcom X, and I'm working on Alex Haley's "Queen." This doesn't make me a scholar of black history, but I've got an idea.
How many rappers know even what's in those two books about "thier peeps?"

I feel if black America wanted to achieve, it would, in strides that would stun those who feel blacks can't achieve. However, black people have, in my opinion, very, very few people pushing them to achieve. There are a few white leaders preaching how cool it is to sell drugs, shot cops, and pimp hoes. (Eminem I suppose.) I think the number of positive white, hispanic, and asian role models far outnumber the negatives. But blacks don't have that. Black America has: (in an successful, and acceptable, black way)Rappers, Ballplayers, Johnnie C., Jesse, and a few Actors.
Any black man that succeeds, in other that those ways, is a "sellout."

Rappers ARE actually leaders.

The have exposure, and media power.

In the 21st century that IS what makes a leader. If they want to avoid taking the role on, they just show that cowardace is one of the values in their rap.

Rappers don't care, they preach how cool it is to not care, and that is one shitty thing to preach.

Jeff · 08-05-2003, 11:44 PM

Yeah, it certainly doesn't put them in a good light. They all want to be pimps, or gangsters. Image is EVERYTHING to them. The price they pay for FUBU or Ecko is ridiculous. I'm not talking about all blacks just the thuggish, ebonic talking ones.

StormBerlin · 08-06-2003, 12:01 AM

Hehe... funny article. I think it's the lifestyle, not the music... Art imitating life...

World's King · 08-06-2003, 12:21 AM

Polka holds the White man back.

Drzeaius · 08-06-2003, 12:57 AM

Yeah, ill agree with this.

UncleFluffer · 08-06-2003, 01:03 AM

As a black person I'll somewhat agree with this, while it's part of our culture, the majority of the black population lives and dies by hip-hop. I listen to "hip-hop" sometimes, but it's not my first choice, sometimes I laugh at it, but I don't take it seriously.

Elitegibson · 08-06-2003, 01:06 AM

I don't know how completely hip-hop and rap have infused themselves into black cluture, but I do know that a majority of them don't act like thugs and pimps. One thing I wonder: why does a KFC have security guard?

ARTelevision · 08-06-2003, 02:32 AM

yes. there's no denying this.

as I've stated many times in these pages, IMO all popular culture is a mechanism of retardation.

it's ironic how enthusiastically we participate in our own diminishment...

rockzilla · 08-06-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elitegibson
One thing I wonder: why does a KFC have security guard?

'Cause it's in the ghetto.

It's impossible for me to walk 2 blocks in my neighbourhood without running across a pack of thugged-out kids. I've even been mugged by such groups on 2 occasions, the second time, when I only had 2 or 3 bucks on me almost got me beaten. Needless to say, anytime I now see black kid in hip-hop gear, I get a little worried. Racist? maybe, but I haven't seen much good come out of being a thug.

debaser · 08-06-2003, 09:17 AM

Yawn. Todays angst-core heavy metal is no better. There is lots of positive, or at the very least neutral, rap and hip-hop music out there today. Condemn the individuals, not the whole genre.

BadNick · 08-06-2003, 09:36 AM

I can't help but think of all the revolutionary thoughts and rhetoric in songs of the 1960's that I grew up with. Plus most of mainstream society then was saying stuff like "cut your hair" "wear clothes like us" "listen to music like us" and they apparently felt truly threatened, like radical youth will destroy society, hell they even shot some kids like at Kent State! I won't even get into Nixon's paranoia but I didn't vote for him. It's the same old shit all over again. Sure, a song said happiness is a warm gun mamma, but I never killed anybody.

I'm 54yo, I still love rock & roll and most good music, plus new styles too, I have two of my radio presets on the two least commercial hiphop stations in the Phila PA area and I like to listen to that stuff a bit each day. I find some of the best examples to be rythmic and poetic in a raw on-the-streets kind of way and like most pop-culture, the rest is trash anyway.

johnnymysto · 08-06-2003, 09:45 AM

This article should be REQUIRED READING!!! It is the absolute truth! All black leaders can talk about is improving the black race, giving back to the community, etc, etc, etc. But who do black kids listen to? 50 Cent, Eminem, Ludacris, and all the other "F*** da Po-lice, I'ma get mine, get out da F***in way muthaf***er!" rappers out there. Is there anyone who can show me that the current black idols are NOT:

1. professional athletes rolling in dough
2. professional rappers rolling in dough, chicks, and cars

Nope, nobody can do it. So why should I give a f*** about "giving back to da comoonity" when I don't see any of my heroes doing it? As long as the prevailing, celebrated black attitude is "I'ma cut cho throat fool. Po da Cris" then black people as a whole will NEVER progress.

WhoaitsZ · 08-06-2003, 10:11 AM

In a bizarre way this reminds me of a semi-mainstream hate rock period about 10-12 years ago. Some fuckwit racist white trash do ‘hate rock’ and its metal…. Needless to say I made us all metalheads look bad awhile until it was known that, hey, those guys are not us. We do not claim them at all.

I agree with about every single thing the author stated and I have a lot of respect for him. People are so afraid of other people these days that they lie to everyone, including themselves, to stay popular or in fear of real pain. You can’t be quiet. I stray

Back to the point at hand. I’ve always seen ‘gangsta’ rap in three ways:

1) Possibly good for mature people who need to vent.

2) reality for some people. Not all of the ghetto life protrayels are fake. Life is life and they should be honest in their medium.

3) The whole ‘bitches and hos’, drug abuse and over the top violence worries me shitless and needs to stop besides rare artists.

But the problem is where do you draw a line? I have always back entire free speech. Even the fucking KKK and other hate groups have a right to speak. So do rappers.

However, when did we decide kids had the right to do and listen as they please? I know by fact that if you say ‘do not hear this’ the kid will listen. Quickly. But we let them go too far and our state of caring for the kids has dropped unbelievably low. Whatever happened to parents (or parent) teaching kids Reality from Fiction?

See, I am a writer. I have violent, violent, violent material and I have honesty in my words. My fiction is for adults, not kids. Some things are for kids, some for adults.

I can see some rappers viewpoints, in a sense and I encourage them. But I also encourage them to show that hey… this is my vent. Not my current lifestyle. Oh, and the bling bling bullshit needs to go. Glamour + violence = major trouble.

I definitely see this as a major social problem. Now, instead of simply finger pointing, what do we do to clean up this negativity? Any volunteers for kids? Big brother/sister? Become a second father/mother, or a mentor to this tormented children?

See. We all see the root. Some people have shit lives and they are in their right to talk of it. However, a lot of kids that know nothing of it for true is converting because they think it gives them the gonads to easily push any and all authority and mentors away.

So…. Dr. Dre, your young life fucking sucked. I think I can see your side long ago. Things have changed. The hate and violence is now a bling bling issue. This is horrible for people.

This, to me, is the problem. False prophets of music.

One thing we could do is play more hip hop of a neutral to positive style all over so they may hear it. Be willing to give the kid honest insight without preaching or being an asshole.

Our kids need guidance. Bad. Their parents are not, their society are not, the schools can’t. . . . someone has to.

Okay, I’ve typed much an am tired and need to go.

Sorry I jumped around so much above. I may post more later.

gov135 · 08-06-2003, 10:47 AM

I found this article interesting because the author dares to conclude that a group may have itself to blame for its lot. This is increasingly a more difficult opinion to find as the blame culture in America expands.

EleqTrizi'T · 08-06-2003, 10:53 AM

Actually, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. His examples are way off. I mean, seriously, everything is way off.

I saw this man on HBO debating with a owner of a rap record label, and he was the most Niles Crane, pompous black man E.V.E.R.

The unfortunate side of *his* article is..

1 - he has little credibility. His "blackness" is deeply countered by his Niles Crane-ness.

2 - His examples are so off black people will disregard him.

3 - Had he done some homework, he could of written a more solid article that would nailed his message, which is true! Black people are being fed horse shit as culture, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

docbungle · 08-06-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Yet back in the bad old days, blacks often complained—with some justification—that the media too often depicted blacks simply as uncivilized. Today, even as television and films depict blacks at all levels of success, hip-hop sends the message that blacks are . . . uncivilized. I find it striking that the cry-racism crowd doesn’t condemn it.

point.

Cynthetiq · 08-06-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnnymysto
This article should be REQUIRED READING!!! It is the absolute truth! All black leaders can talk about is improving the black race, giving back to the community, etc, etc, etc. But who do black kids listen to? 50 Cent, Eminem, Ludacris, and all the other "F*** da Po-lice, I'ma get mine, get out da F***in way muthaf***er!" rappers out there. Is there anyone who can show me that the current black idols are NOT:

1. professional athletes rolling in dough
2. professional rappers rolling in dough, chicks, and cars

Nope, nobody can do it. So why should I give a f*** about "giving back to da comoonity" when I don't see any of my heroes doing it? As long as the prevailing, celebrated black attitude is "I'ma cut cho throat fool. Po da Cris" then black people as a whole will NEVER progress.

Colin Powell

Larry Elder

There are a number of positive Black Role models outside the sports and music industries. Colin Powell from the Bronx, and Larry Elder, from South Central, are both black men that came from "da hood."

The_Dude · 08-06-2003, 11:29 AM

i agree to an extent on this guy, but not all the way.

i went to a high school with a good size black population (i'll say about 25%) and i would have to agree that rap and the thuggish attitude went hand in hand.

even with a black population at that level, there wasnt many students in honors classes.

this is strictly my observation, but i think it's the parents and their level of expectation. the kids (black kids) in honors classes were generally wealthier and had parents with good jobs.

clavus · 08-06-2003, 11:51 AM

I don't buy it.

Punk rock lyrics peppered conversations I had with my friends. We didn't blow up a bank, kill a CEO or do anything that the music talked about (unless it talked about geting drunk, but I can't blame the tunes for that).

There is human garbage in all races. They listen to all kinds of music.

Raw Kuts · 08-06-2003, 12:34 PM

It sounds like this is talking about Hip Pop, and/or what is now rap, not the Hip Hop culture. I always thought the Hip Hop culture comprised of the people who were the elitist (but they of course would adimently deny being elitist) of the black rap community. They seperate themselves from the gangster rappers, the sell outs with bitches and hoes in their videos. Hip Hop was the underground, untainted version of all of that. They expressed more of a muslim, black power (more modern, less violent black power of course, but not completly without hatin' of The Man) type black man.

Or you can just ignore me because I'm arguing a point which doesn't really matter, because I'm arguing semantics of Hip Hop when no ones really cares, and lumps it in with rap, Hip Pop, and all.

druptight · 08-06-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
Colin Powell
Larry Elder

There are a number of positive Black Role models outside the sports and music industries. Colin Powell from the Bronx, and Larry Elder, from South Central, are both black men that came from "da hood."

How many black people do you know who listen to commercial Hip-hop, and find these guys to be role-models???? I don't know one. Just wanted to back up the earlier statement that most black rolemodels are out of hollywood or the music industry. The shit you hear on the radio IS NOT representative of all hip-hop. some of the positive underground hip-hop is finding its way into the mainstream to an extent. anyone who watches the dave chapelle show can see a black actor, who regularly includes POSITIVE black hip hop artists on his show. Common, Mos Def, and Talib Kweli. There are entire record labels, websites, and communities based on positive underground hip hop. i just wish this stuff would make its way past all that thug-shit you hear on the radio, as far as role-models go. I work at a record store, and as often as possible, when a kid comes in looking for new hip-hop to listen to , i point him to one of these positive artists. The rolling stones had a horrible rap 35 years ago due to their "drugs and sex" attitude, and look where they are now. How many people still feel the same way about them now???? Anyways, i guess in theory i kinda agree with this guy, using the commercial hip-hop artists as role models, does not lead to a more vibrant, healthy black culture. Maybe more positive hip hop and jazz listening could enrich black culture though. I mainly just don't want everyone to vilify all hip-hop, as though what you hear on the radio is the ONLY rap there is. If anyone wants suggestions on what to download/buy for GOOD positive hip-hop, just PM me, i'd be glad to help.

Cynthetiq · 08-06-2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by druptight
How many black people do you know who listen to commercial Hip-hop, and find these guys to be role-models???? I don't know one. Just wanted to back up the earlier statement that most black rolemodels are out of hollywood or the music industry. The shit you hear on the radio IS NOT representative of all hip-hop. some of the positive underground hip-hop is finding its way into the mainstream to an extent. anyone who watches the dave chapelle show can see a black actor, who regularly includes POSITIVE black hip hop artists on his show. Common, Mos Def, and Talib Kweli. There are entire record labels, websites, and communities based on positive underground hip hop. i just wish this stuff would make its way past all that thug-shit you hear on the radio, as far as role-models go. I work at a record store, and as often as possible, when a kid comes in looking for new hip-hop to listen to , i point him to one of these positive artists. The rolling stones had a horrible rap 35 years ago due to their "drugs and sex" attitude, and look where they are now. How many people still feel the same way about them now???? Anyways, i guess in theory i kinda agree with this guy, using the commercial hip-hop artists as role models, does not lead to a more vibrant, healthy black culture. Maybe more positive hip hop and jazz listening could enrich black culture though. I mainly just don't want everyone to vilify all hip-hop, as though what you hear on the radio is the ONLY rap there is. If anyone wants suggestions on what to download/buy for GOOD positive hip-hop, just PM me, i'd be glad to help.

very true... i do like the NAS song.. Be What I Wanna Be...a very positive song. I was answering the question to show that there are other areas where people aren't in the enterainment/sport business.

remiel · 08-06-2003, 04:14 PM

I don't buy it. I've been to university with people who were frighteningly into hiphop. It didn't stop them wanting to do well.

It's easy to blame popular culture. It's a quick and convenient scapegoat. Looking beyond it to the real issues, poverty, violence, racism, lack of motivation, that's the tough part.

billege · 08-07-2003, 02:09 AM

"Niles Crane-ness"

You mean he was too "white" to listen too? He wasn't "black enough" because he spoke grammatically correct english, and had no posse? He slapped no hoes? What was it exactly?

Thanks for making my point.

The arguement that this is the same thing as said about rock and roll 30 years ago is completely bunk.

Your (general your, no specific person am I responding to)arguement stands because "everyone" said rock and roll would destroy America's fabric, and it didn't. You use the point to say this is the same thing, everyone blames rap, but nothing is really happening.

Well, that's not true. I can drive you around Detroit anytime you want and I can point out many, many, too damn many, people that are poor, angy, and aping the hip hop attitude and look for all it's worth. They will have the hip hop clothes, bad attitudes, I won't understand a damn thing they say, and they sure as hell won't like me.

I'm the evil white man that's kept them in the ghetto, didn't you know that? Don't you listen to rap?

Cynthetiq · 08-07-2003, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by billege
The arguement that this is the same thing as said about rock and roll 30 years ago is completely bunk.

Your (general your, no specific person am I responding to)arguement stands because "everyone" said rock and roll would destroy America's fabric, and it didn't. You use the point to say this is the same thing, everyone blames rap, but nothing is really happening.

there is something that is tattering the fabric of america... i believe that some of this is the cause.

Plummie · 08-07-2003, 08:10 AM

Not all hip hop is negative and about money, bitches, and h0s.

There are many hip hop artists (De la Soul, Blackalicious, Tribe to mention a few) who are trying to put out positive messages for African Americans.

It seems ignorant to generalize and say that all hip hop diminishes America. Just like any other genre of music, there are artists who work to make a difference in the positive sense.

There are certain points made in the article that I agree with, however. The nastier music does tend to sell more than the positive stuff, and he does make a valid point by saying that many African Amercians propagate the notion that they are uncivilized by acting that way (e.g. by having misogynist attitudes and antisocial viewpoints). They are the only ones who have the power to change this.

I think this article is a good read. Thanks for sharing it.

Trilidon · 08-07-2003, 11:03 AM

Colin powell has like 5/8 white or something =P most young black kids probably wouldnt look to him as a role model

Nas is a retard who thinks the traffic light was invented by an african american

over 75% of rap sales are to whites-Surprised nobody has talked about its effect on them, there is one, most folks just wont talk about it.

Also the difference between hardcore death metal and what not, you dont hear about these stars out killing people or rising demons from hell =P That and compared to rap they get almost no air time.

WhoaitsZ · 08-07-2003, 12:45 PM

my blackness can beat up your blackness.

hmm. let's try to look at the big picture.

unless your sense of self and discipline is very high you will eventually come to imitate the music you listen to. a lot of people will say 'uh sure', but I truly believe music is a key to everyone's ultimate persona.

for what i read, he didn't put down hip hop. he didn't put down rap. he put down the thug wannabe dipshits that have disregarded all honor, respect, and tolerance.

anger music can be good for you. god knows i've got some fucked up shit on my own. i'm a metalhead. but I listen to music after I think (wow) about how I will feel. if it will be negative i force myself to not play it if I am in a bad mood already. kind of like saying "i'm too depressed to drink alcohol". its not that hard to decide.

and as for a person being black or white enough? fuck that bullshit. if that's the way you see society you need to shape up a bit. we're all different individuals. deal with it.

if i had a young teen with the Chronic i would be uncomfortable, but let it go. I know my relationship with my kid would be high and i would talk to him about this kind of nonesense since day one. respect each other, especially women, some words are not tolerated period until you understand them, drugs aren't the worse thing in the world but don't just try shit.... so on.

i see some kids and i think. if they would give up this bullshit fake lifestyle they may be happy instead of looking like a thug. yes. a thug. i said it. most teens these days look thuggish to me. they listen to this shit, this none stop dissing hos and bitches, my dick is bigger than yours, fuck the police (although i mostly agree with the statement), guns are needed... yadayada music is poison. perio. just like a lot of music and all things.

there's good, neutral and bad. this shit is bad.

its just sad that everyone is so ready to say 'you will not hear this again' which does not work. explain, communicate.... things may get better.

but the longer we tolerate thug culture the longer we will have to eventually embrrace it.

thank god most goths are too pussyfied to fight normal folk. (fake goths)

WhoaitsZ · 08-07-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trilidon

over 75% of rap sales are to whites-Surprised nobody has talked about its effect on them, there is one, most folks just wont talk about it.

the shit applies to all people. black, white, purple, green, male, female, trans. so on.

Also the difference between hardcore death metal and what not, you dont hear about these stars out killing people or rising demons from hell =P That and compared to rap they get almost no air time.

go to the netherlands. i forget what group but lemme say off the top of my head....... someone correct me ifi mess up:

one death metal group killed a member of another for being gay. one of the members ate part of the victems brain and the one who went to jail started a death metal band and neo hate in prison.

that is an extreeme example. but it happened.

most metalheads are easy going guys. it amazes me. but there is still bad there.

Trilidon · 08-07-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EleqTrizi'T
Actually, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. His examples are way off. I mean, seriously, everything is way off.

I saw this man on HBO debating with a owner of a rap record label, and he was the most Niles Crane, pompous black man E.V.E.R.

The unfortunate side of *his* article is..

1 - he has little credibility. His "blackness" is deeply countered by his Niles Crane-ness.

2 - His examples are so off black people will disregard him.

3 - Had he done some homework, he could of written a more solid article that would nailed his message, which is true! Black people are being fed horse shit as culture, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

Off the record right? The record label guy was a moron and babbled on about the same thing over and over again to counter Niles.

Come on now, when your insulting someones blackness as a staple point of your argument, you have nothing.

seretogis · 08-07-2003, 01:41 PM

"Hip hop" / "gangsta rap" / other "music" peddled by criminals, is detrimental to all of society, not just one race or another. Criminals should be behind bars, not producing records and getting air-time. The fascination with criminals that our society has, leads to copy-cats and general lawlessness, and ultimately will effect our crime rate if it continues.

Trilidon · 08-07-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ

the shit applies to all people. black, white, purple, green, male, female, trans. so on.

Maybe I missed a part in the article, but it was referring to the effects of rap on blacks. I figured I would throw my opinion out there, which apparently you share

Save for the green people, I dont know if aliens listen to rap.

I just wanted to throw the fact that its white america that buys most of the albums. How come nobody talks about how it effects them?

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ

go to the netherlands. i forget what group but lemme say off the top of my head....... someone correct me ifi mess up:

one death metal group killed a member of another for being gay. one of the members ate part of the victems brain and the one who went to jail started a death metal band and neo hate in prison.

that is an extreeme example. but it happened.

most metalheads are easy going guys. it amazes me. but there is still bad there.

Never heard of that one, either way, one of the most extreme brain eating, neo nazi, hatecore,prison stories ive heard of from the death metal genre

.

How often do you think anything remotely close to this happens? Seriously? Now how often do kids join gangs sell drugs, have unprotected sex wit mad fine bitches and generally just become incredibly disrespectful to others including figures of the law?

Not saying its all raps fault, but it sure as hell doesnt help, and I feel pretty sure that it adds to the problem a great deal.

theguyondacouch · 08-07-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Yawn. Todays angst-core heavy metal is no better. There is lots of positive, or at the very least neutral, rap and hip-hop music out there today. Condemn the individuals, not the whole genre.

Seriously, i don't mean this in a racist or bad way, but when was the last time you saw a gang that listens to rock?

Ralvek · 08-07-2003, 02:42 PM

I think "gangsta" rap and similar genres portray a negative stereotype of African-Americans in the media. These are the things white people see and play a large role in their perception of black people. Media in general does this.. look at the movie Brining Down the House it potrays a black woman who was in prison who moves in with a rich white family...what kind of message does this portray to people? Whitie is rich and black people go to prison? I do think there are very positive black rolemodels in hip hop...I just saw a video by Black-eyed Peas and was very impress, I can't remember the name of the song but it even slams Dubya's regime, nothing wrong with that!

WhoaitsZ · 08-07-2003, 02:43 PM

heh i said it was an extreeme example.

yes, i know the article was about black folk.

its amazing the power that music has on people.

Macheath · 08-07-2003, 04:27 PM

Why does it seem like the hip hop artists with the least talent and most negative social messages are given the most promotion and funding by major record companies.

Crack and bling bling is a mythology now, anyway; reality is Outkast's 'Ms Jackson'.

btw, occurences of the name Combs in that artice:6
occurences of the name Dre:0

Yeah, real close analysis of ALL hip hop there.

Ganguro · 08-07-2003, 04:37 PM

it is only your reality if you choose to accept it.

ubertuber · 08-07-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by billege
"Niles Crane-ness"

You mean he was too "white" to listen too? He wasn't "black enough" because he spoke grammatically correct english, and had no posse? He slapped no hoes? What was it exactly?

Thanks for making my point.

I see what you are objecting to, but I think that EleqTrizi'T is making a valid point - this man's manner destroyed his credibility in a way that prevented his message (regardless of its validity) from being received. This is one sign of the effect of "hip-hop culture" - that success by societal standards (read white society) is something to be distrusted - that somehow one has sold their own heritage out. But this goes both ways - no matter how astute they were, would you expect to see an ebonic speaking commentator on crossfire sitting next to Carville with his southern drawl? I wouldn't. Somehow that person's manner would prevent their message from being received.

Someone pointed out that white people account for 75% of hip-hop sales, so where is the destructive effect on white culture. Well, we aren't sold a version of white thug-life, so white children aren't presented with these negative role-models. However, the more we buy into the hip-hop presentation of black culture, the more we may have misconceptions about the real thing - so there is a destructive element nonetheless.

Many people have objected to condemning hip-hop culture as a whole because there are a few groups out there presenting a more constructive message. I agree that this speaks well for the hip-hop genre, but the fact that the nasty stuff consistently outsells is a condemnation of the culture - it is the destructive garbage that is valued.

Lastly (for now) people in this thread have said that you can't blame pop culture for everything and that we should examine real causes, such as poverty and violence. It may be true that these conditions have spawned the thug attitude, but this culture is only promoting a continuation of the cycle. Ultimately, pragmatism suggests that even if young adults of the thug culture don't want to be assimilated by mainstream culture they are being harmed by the hip-hop ideal.

TwistedFate · 08-07-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trilidon
Nas is a retard who thinks the traffic light was invented by an african american

Garrett Morgan, an African American, invented the automatic traffic light in 1823. Before that they were all manual.

MacGnG · 08-07-2003, 08:05 PM

hip hop holds no one back except those who don't appreciate any sort of music.

08-05-2003, 11:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Jeff And we'll all float on ok... Location: Iowa City	Yeah, it certainly doesn't put them in a good light. They all want to be pimps, or gangsters. Image is EVERYTHING to them. The price they pay for FUBU or Ecko is ridiculous. I'm not talking about all blacks just the thuggish, ebonic talking ones. __________________ For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us. --Charles Bukowski

08-06-2003, 12:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	Hehe... funny article. I think it's the lifestyle, not the music... Art imitating life... __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

08-06-2003, 12:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Polka holds the White man back. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-06-2003, 01:06 AM	#7 (permalink)
Elitegibson More Freedom, Less Bullshit Location: Tulsa, OK	I don't know how completely hip-hop and rap have infused themselves into black cluture, but I do know that a majority of them don't act like thugs and pimps. One thing I wonder: why does a KFC have security guard? __________________ -Erik Stupid people shouldn't breed.

08-06-2003, 02:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	yes. there's no denying this. as I've stated many times in these pages, IMO all popular culture is a mechanism of retardation. it's ironic how enthusiastically we participate in our own diminishment... __________________ create evolution

08-06-2003, 12:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
Drzeaius Loser Location: Tulsa	Yeah, ill agree with this.

08-06-2003, 01:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
UncleFluffer Banned	As a black person I'll somewhat agree with this, while it's part of our culture, the majority of the black population lives and dies by hip-hop. I listen to "hip-hop" sometimes, but it's not my first choice, sometimes I laugh at it, but I don't take it seriously.

08-06-2003, 09:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Yawn. Todays angst-core heavy metal is no better. There is lots of positive, or at the very least neutral, rap and hip-hop music out there today. Condemn the individuals, not the whole genre. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

08-06-2003, 09:36 AM	#11 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	I can't help but think of all the revolutionary thoughts and rhetoric in songs of the 1960's that I grew up with. Plus most of mainstream society then was saying stuff like "cut your hair" "wear clothes like us" "listen to music like us" and they apparently felt truly threatened, like radical youth will destroy society, hell they even shot some kids like at Kent State! I won't even get into Nixon's paranoia but I didn't vote for him. It's the same old shit all over again. Sure, a song said happiness is a warm gun mamma, but I never killed anybody. I'm 54yo, I still love rock & roll and most good music, plus new styles too, I have two of my radio presets on the two least commercial hiphop stations in the Phila PA area and I like to listen to that stuff a bit each day. I find some of the best examples to be rythmic and poetic in a raw on-the-streets kind of way and like most pop-culture, the rest is trash anyway.

08-06-2003, 09:45 AM	#12 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	This article should be REQUIRED READING!!! It is the absolute truth! All black leaders can talk about is improving the black race, giving back to the community, etc, etc, etc. But who do black kids listen to? 50 Cent, Eminem, Ludacris, and all the other "F* da Po-lice, I'ma get mine, get out da Fin way muthafer!" rappers out there. Is there anyone who can show me that the current black idols are NOT: 1. professional athletes rolling in dough 2. professional rappers rolling in dough, chicks, and cars Nope, nobody can do it. So why should I give a f* about "giving back to da comoonity" when I don't see any of my heroes doing it? As long as the prevailing, celebrated black attitude is "I'ma cut cho throat fool. Po da Cris" then black people as a whole will NEVER progress. __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa

08-06-2003, 10:11 AM	#13 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	In a bizarre way this reminds me of a semi-mainstream hate rock period about 10-12 years ago. Some fuckwit racist white trash do ‘hate rock’ and its metal…. Needless to say I made us all metalheads look bad awhile until it was known that, hey, those guys are not us. We do not claim them at all. I agree with about every single thing the author stated and I have a lot of respect for him. People are so afraid of other people these days that they lie to everyone, including themselves, to stay popular or in fear of real pain. You can’t be quiet. I stray Back to the point at hand. I’ve always seen ‘gangsta’ rap in three ways: 1) Possibly good for mature people who need to vent. 2) reality for some people. Not all of the ghetto life protrayels are fake. Life is life and they should be honest in their medium. 3) The whole ‘bitches and hos’, drug abuse and over the top violence worries me shitless and needs to stop besides rare artists. But the problem is where do you draw a line? I have always back entire free speech. Even the fucking KKK and other hate groups have a right to speak. So do rappers. However, when did we decide kids had the right to do and listen as they please? I know by fact that if you say ‘do not hear this’ the kid will listen. Quickly. But we let them go too far and our state of caring for the kids has dropped unbelievably low. Whatever happened to parents (or parent) teaching kids Reality from Fiction? See, I am a writer. I have violent, violent, violent material and I have honesty in my words. My fiction is for adults, not kids. Some things are for kids, some for adults. I can see some rappers viewpoints, in a sense and I encourage them. But I also encourage them to show that hey… this is my vent. Not my current lifestyle. Oh, and the bling bling bullshit needs to go. Glamour + violence = major trouble. I definitely see this as a major social problem. Now, instead of simply finger pointing, what do we do to clean up this negativity? Any volunteers for kids? Big brother/sister? Become a second father/mother, or a mentor to this tormented children? See. We all see the root. Some people have shit lives and they are in their right to talk of it. However, a lot of kids that know nothing of it for true is converting because they think it gives them the gonads to easily push any and all authority and mentors away. So…. Dr. Dre, your young life fucking sucked. I think I can see your side long ago. Things have changed. The hate and violence is now a bling bling issue. This is horrible for people. This, to me, is the problem. False prophets of music. One thing we could do is play more hip hop of a neutral to positive style all over so they may hear it. Be willing to give the kid honest insight without preaching or being an asshole. Our kids need guidance. Bad. Their parents are not, their society are not, the schools can’t. . . . someone has to. Okay, I’ve typed much an am tired and need to go. Sorry I jumped around so much above. I may post more later.

08-06-2003, 10:47 AM	#14 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	I found this article interesting because the author dares to conclude that a group may have itself to blame for its lot. This is increasingly a more difficult opinion to find as the blame culture in America expands.

08-06-2003, 10:53 AM	#15 (permalink)
EleqTrizi'T Insane	Actually, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. His examples are way off. I mean, seriously, everything is way off. I saw this man on HBO debating with a owner of a rap record label, and he was the most Niles Crane, pompous black man E.V.E.R. The unfortunate side of his article is.. 1 - he has little credibility. His "blackness" is deeply countered by his Niles Crane-ness. 2 - His examples are so off black people will disregard him. 3 - Had he done some homework, he could of written a more solid article that would nailed his message, which is true! Black people are being fed horse shit as culture, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

08-06-2003, 11:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i agree to an extent on this guy, but not all the way. i went to a high school with a good size black population (i'll say about 25%) and i would have to agree that rap and the thuggish attitude went hand in hand. even with a black population at that level, there wasnt many students in honors classes. this is strictly my observation, but i think it's the parents and their level of expectation. the kids (black kids) in honors classes were generally wealthier and had parents with good jobs. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-06-2003, 11:51 AM	#19 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	I don't buy it. Punk rock lyrics peppered conversations I had with my friends. We didn't blow up a bank, kill a CEO or do anything that the music talked about (unless it talked about geting drunk, but I can't blame the tunes for that). There is human garbage in all races. They listen to all kinds of music. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

08-06-2003, 12:34 PM	#20 (permalink)
Raw Kuts Insane Location: San Diego, CA	It sounds like this is talking about Hip Pop, and/or what is now rap, not the Hip Hop culture. I always thought the Hip Hop culture comprised of the people who were the elitist (but they of course would adimently deny being elitist) of the black rap community. They seperate themselves from the gangster rappers, the sell outs with bitches and hoes in their videos. Hip Hop was the underground, untainted version of all of that. They expressed more of a muslim, black power (more modern, less violent black power of course, but not completly without hatin' of The Man) type black man. Or you can just ignore me because I'm arguing a point which doesn't really matter, because I'm arguing semantics of Hip Hop when no ones really cares, and lumps it in with rap, Hip Pop, and all. __________________ ( o< --!"Take that bass out you're voice, you talk to me in treble." / / \ \/_/_ -->Mos Def

08-06-2003, 04:14 PM	#23 (permalink)
remiel Insane Location: Gastonia NC	I don't buy it. I've been to university with people who were frighteningly into hiphop. It didn't stop them wanting to do well. It's easy to blame popular culture. It's a quick and convenient scapegoat. Looking beyond it to the real issues, poverty, violence, racism, lack of motivation, that's the tough part. __________________ "Then said Joseph to St. Mary, henceforth we will not allow him to go out of the house; for every one who displeases him is killed." Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, 20:16

08-07-2003, 02:09 AM	#24 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	"Niles Crane-ness" You mean he was too "white" to listen too? He wasn't "black enough" because he spoke grammatically correct english, and had no posse? He slapped no hoes? What was it exactly? Thanks for making my point. The arguement that this is the same thing as said about rock and roll 30 years ago is completely bunk. Your (general your, no specific person am I responding to)arguement stands because "everyone" said rock and roll would destroy America's fabric, and it didn't. You use the point to say this is the same thing, everyone blames rap, but nothing is really happening. Well, that's not true. I can drive you around Detroit anytime you want and I can point out many, many, too damn many, people that are poor, angy, and aping the hip hop attitude and look for all it's worth. They will have the hip hop clothes, bad attitudes, I won't understand a damn thing they say, and they sure as hell won't like me. I'm the evil white man that's kept them in the ghetto, didn't you know that? Don't you listen to rap? __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

08-07-2003, 08:10 AM	#26 (permalink)
Plummie Liquid Diamonds Location: Lexington, KY	Not all hip hop is negative and about money, bitches, and h0s. There are many hip hop artists (De la Soul, Blackalicious, Tribe to mention a few) who are trying to put out positive messages for African Americans. It seems ignorant to generalize and say that all hip hop diminishes America. Just like any other genre of music, there are artists who work to make a difference in the positive sense. There are certain points made in the article that I agree with, however. The nastier music does tend to sell more than the positive stuff, and he does make a valid point by saying that many African Amercians propagate the notion that they are uncivilized by acting that way (e.g. by having misogynist attitudes and antisocial viewpoints). They are the only ones who have the power to change this. I think this article is a good read. Thanks for sharing it. __________________ Kim Last edited by Plummie; 08-07-2003 at 08:41 AM..

08-07-2003, 11:03 AM	#27 (permalink)
Trilidon Tilted	Colin powell has like 5/8 white or something =P most young black kids probably wouldnt look to him as a role model Nas is a retard who thinks the traffic light was invented by an african american over 75% of rap sales are to whites-Surprised nobody has talked about its effect on them, there is one, most folks just wont talk about it. Also the difference between hardcore death metal and what not, you dont hear about these stars out killing people or rising demons from hell =P That and compared to rap they get almost no air time.

08-07-2003, 12:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	my blackness can beat up your blackness. hmm. let's try to look at the big picture. unless your sense of self and discipline is very high you will eventually come to imitate the music you listen to. a lot of people will say 'uh sure', but I truly believe music is a key to everyone's ultimate persona. for what i read, he didn't put down hip hop. he didn't put down rap. he put down the thug wannabe dipshits that have disregarded all honor, respect, and tolerance. anger music can be good for you. god knows i've got some fucked up shit on my own. i'm a metalhead. but I listen to music after I think (wow) about how I will feel. if it will be negative i force myself to not play it if I am in a bad mood already. kind of like saying "i'm too depressed to drink alcohol". its not that hard to decide. and as for a person being black or white enough? fuck that bullshit. if that's the way you see society you need to shape up a bit. we're all different individuals. deal with it. if i had a young teen with the Chronic i would be uncomfortable, but let it go. I know my relationship with my kid would be high and i would talk to him about this kind of nonesense since day one. respect each other, especially women, some words are not tolerated period until you understand them, drugs aren't the worse thing in the world but don't just try shit.... so on. i see some kids and i think. if they would give up this bullshit fake lifestyle they may be happy instead of looking like a thug. yes. a thug. i said it. most teens these days look thuggish to me. they listen to this shit, this none stop dissing hos and bitches, my dick is bigger than yours, fuck the police (although i mostly agree with the statement), guns are needed... yadayada music is poison. perio. just like a lot of music and all things. there's good, neutral and bad. this shit is bad. its just sad that everyone is so ready to say 'you will not hear this again' which does not work. explain, communicate.... things may get better. but the longer we tolerate thug culture the longer we will have to eventually embrrace it. thank god most goths are too pussyfied to fight normal folk. (fake goths)

08-07-2003, 01:41 PM	#31 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	"Hip hop" / "gangsta rap" / other "music" peddled by criminals, is detrimental to all of society, not just one race or another. Criminals should be behind bars, not producing records and getting air-time. The fascination with criminals that our society has, leads to copy-cats and general lawlessness, and ultimately will effect our crime rate if it continues. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-07-2003, 02:42 PM	#34 (permalink)
Ralvek Crazy Location: MN	I think "gangsta" rap and similar genres portray a negative stereotype of African-Americans in the media. These are the things white people see and play a large role in their perception of black people. Media in general does this.. look at the movie Brining Down the House it potrays a black woman who was in prison who moves in with a rich white family...what kind of message does this portray to people? Whitie is rich and black people go to prison? I do think there are very positive black rolemodels in hip hop...I just saw a video by Black-eyed Peas and was very impress, I can't remember the name of the song but it even slams Dubya's regime, nothing wrong with that! __________________ Ban country music, it promotes inbreeding.

08-07-2003, 02:43 PM	#35 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	heh i said it was an extreeme example. yes, i know the article was about black folk. its amazing the power that music has on people.

08-07-2003, 04:27 PM	#36 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	Why does it seem like the hip hop artists with the least talent and most negative social messages are given the most promotion and funding by major record companies. Crack and bling bling is a mythology now, anyway; reality is Outkast's 'Ms Jackson'. btw, occurences of the name Combs in that artice:6 occurences of the name Dre:0 Yeah, real close analysis of ALL hip hop there. Last edited by Macheath; 08-07-2003 at 04:34 PM..

08-07-2003, 04:37 PM	#37 (permalink)
Ganguro Army of Me	it is only your reality if you choose to accept it.

08-07-2003, 08:05 PM	#40 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	hip hop holds no one back except those who don't appreciate any sort of music.