Great, now the PC nuts are moving war graves... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

WantonSewp · 07-25-2003, 12:39 PM

This is a few weeks old, but I thought I'd be interesting to get some opinions on this other than the plane and plastic model enthusiasts who are really familiar with this guy's story...

Quote:

Vienna council shifts Luftwaffe hero from plot of honour to pauper's grave
By Clare Chapman in Vienna
(Filed: 13/07/2003)

The ashes of a daredevil Luftwaffe pilot who shot down more than 250 Allied planes in the Second World War are to be exhumed from a grave of honour in Vienna after the council stripped him of his status as a war hero.

The campaign to remove Major Walter Nowotny's remains from the city's Central Cemetery and move them to a pauper's plot has been led by the grandson of a British RAF pilot who was shot down over Belgium in 1940 and died of his injuries.

David Ellensohn, a Vienna city councillor whose maternal grandfather was RAF acting pilot officer James Gillespie, successfully argued that Major Nowotny - the first fighter pilot in history to bring down 250 enemy aircraft - had been serving the Third Reich and did not deserve his heroic status.

"He was not fighting for this country, for Austria, he was fighting for the Third Reich," said Mr Ellensohn, a Green Party councillor. "If they had won the war, there would be no Austria as such. Therefore, we should not be forced to give special credit to this man."

Major Nowotny, who had shot down 258 enemy aircraft by the time of his death, aged 24, had been awarded the Third Reich's highest military honour, the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, by Hitler himself.

When the major died in 1944 when his fighter crashed in flames, his ashes were buried with his medals in his home town, Vienna, alongside Austrian resistance fighters and Beethoven, Schubert, Johann Strauss and Brahms.

Mr Ellensohn asked: "What did he do that earned him a place alongside those who really earned their places in the cemetery, such as resistance fighters Rosa Jochmann and Paul Speiser?

"He was placed in that section of the graveyard by the Nazis, not by the city of Vienna, and although it has taken 59 years for the city to recognise that he does not deserve to be there, we are pleased that action is finally being taken."

The council's decision has been denounced as "cultural barbarianism" by Johann Herzog, a councillor for the opposition Freedom Party (FP), which has launched an appeal.

Opposition councillors argue that relocating the major's ashes would contravene the war graves welfare law, from 1948, that says war graves - regardless of the nationality of their occupant - must remain undisturbed.

Mr Herzog said: "The necessity to dishonour Nowotny's grave, and therefore his person, almost 60 years after his death, is evidence of a distorted understanding of history and moreover a lack of deference for a fallen soldier. And that's all he was - a soldier.

"He was not a member of the National Socialist Party and he certainly was not a war criminal. If he were, I could understand the removal of his status. In fact, he was respected not just by his own side but by RAF pilots as well."

Sascha Gasthuber, of the far-Right Germania group, said protesters carrying flaming torches to show their contempt for the vote would march against the council's decision. "Nowotny gave his life to make sure the future was worth living in for us and our children. We cannot sit back and let them dishonour his memory like this."

Mr Ellensohn, however, insisted that the plan to move the grave away from the cemetery's section for heroes was perfectly justified. "As far as I am aware, there is no rule in Catholicism that says a grave cannot be moved, not like in Judaism," he said.

Major Nowotny, who joined up when he was 19 following the invasion of Poland, was renowned even among Allied pilots and during the summer of 1943 became a virtual one-man air force in the skies over the Eastern Front. In June 1943 he shot down 41 aircraft, 10 in one day. He crashed on November 8 1944 and was buried with his medals a few days later.

One thing they don't mention in there is that there was an international agreement in 1948--that has been very strictly adhered to--that war graves simply weren't / aren't moved or disturbed.

And no, I'm not some skinhead neo-Nazi. My grandfather flew P-38 recon planes over Italy and got shot down twice.

EDIT: Okay, they did mention the war graves agreement. Oh well.

cheerios · 07-25-2003, 05:18 PM

geeze, that's crazy! The guy did what he had to do, he did it well, and they want to EXHUME him to put him in a DIFFERENT hole in the ground that's not at SPECIAL as the one he's in now?? Jesus people, leave the dead alone! they couldn't give a shit where they're buried, they're not hurting anything, they're quietly rotting, let them do it in peace, please!

Gman · 07-25-2003, 07:57 PM

Man, that is messed up! The man performs aviation greatness, and just because one guy decides to whine and moan about it, he is stripped of his own resting place. Man, I'm pissed by this!

stuckshut · 07-25-2003, 08:42 PM

That's just ridiculous. It's bad enough he's being stripped of his war hero status let alone being moved to a crappier grave. Just because he was on the side that lost and was 'in the wrong' doesn't mean he should be given such treatment.

For the record, I believe the Nazis were in the wrong and needed to be taken down. But if even half of those stats are true this guy should keep his medals. That's some crazy aviation.

numberfive · 07-25-2003, 09:21 PM

Agreed. 250+ enemy aircrafts. That guy was a freak.

MSD · 07-25-2003, 09:24 PM

I don't care which side he was on, the dead deserve some fucking respect.

Kllr Wolf · 07-25-2003, 09:54 PM

I agree that the guy should keep his status and stay buried where he is. Just becuase the guy was on the losing side doesnt make him evil, just that he was a patriot. He earned his awards and status through his own skill and daring.

cluster · 07-25-2003, 10:38 PM

the Man Died fighting for his country .

Right or Wrong.

He died doing his duty .

As a person he should be dispised

As a warrior he is to be respected. < unless his is french

>

As much as I would like to see the men buried in france from WWII returned to the US main land .. it will not happen . < as well it should not>
THey are buried . there done
He is buried there . done

seems like its a " feel good " move instead of a realalistic view of history .

Why hide the horrors and consaquences of war?
the more you hide them the more you forget
the more you forget the easier it is to go to war again.

War is ugly for a reason..
to keep it from happening.

and when a nation does go to war it must never have dumb ass rules of engagment and should be given ALL the lee way to complete thiEr mission , < you hear that Clinton?! >

Cluster

View Poll Results: Should they move him?
Move the bastard.	2	9.09%
Leave him where he is... he's gone through enough.	16	72.73%
I have a better idea, but it sounds like a MacGyver episode and it's too long to type here	3	13.64%
WTF's a 'luftwaffle'?	1	4.55%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

07-25-2003, 08:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
stuckshut Upright	That's just ridiculous. It's bad enough he's being stripped of his war hero status let alone being moved to a crappier grave. Just because he was on the side that lost and was 'in the wrong' doesn't mean he should be given such treatment. For the record, I believe the Nazis were in the wrong and needed to be taken down. But if even half of those stats are true this guy should keep his medals. That's some crazy aviation. __________________ fear the Ninja Pirate Monkey

07-25-2003, 09:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
numberfive You + Me = Us Location: California dreaming...	Agreed. 250+ enemy aircrafts. That guy was a freak. __________________ P.S. Always remember: to forget is a form of suicide. (If I could only remember to forget myself.)

07-25-2003, 09:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kllr Wolf Psycho Location: Lubbock, TX	I agree that the guy should keep his status and stay buried where he is. Just becuase the guy was on the losing side doesnt make him evil, just that he was a patriot. He earned his awards and status through his own skill and daring. __________________ Caffeine - the molecule of life.

07-25-2003, 05:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	geeze, that's crazy! The guy did what he had to do, he did it well, and they want to EXHUME him to put him in a DIFFERENT hole in the ground that's not at SPECIAL as the one he's in now?? Jesus people, leave the dead alone! they couldn't give a shit where they're buried, they're not hurting anything, they're quietly rotting, let them do it in peace, please!

07-25-2003, 07:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gman Insane Location: Down South In Louisiana	Man, that is messed up! The man performs aviation greatness, and just because one guy decides to whine and moan about it, he is stripped of his own resting place. Man, I'm pissed by this!

07-25-2003, 09:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I don't care which side he was on, the dead deserve some fucking respect.

07-25-2003, 10:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
cluster Upright	the Man Died fighting for his country . Right or Wrong. He died doing his duty . As a person he should be dispised As a warrior he is to be respected. < unless his is french > As much as I would like to see the men buried in france from WWII returned to the US main land .. it will not happen . < as well it should not> THey are buried . there done He is buried there . done seems like its a " feel good " move instead of a realalistic view of history . Why hide the horrors and consaquences of war? the more you hide them the more you forget the more you forget the easier it is to go to war again. War is ugly for a reason.. to keep it from happening. and when a nation does go to war it must never have dumb ass rules of engagment and should be given ALL the lee way to complete thiEr mission , < you hear that Clinton?! > Cluster