Baraka_Guru

Yeah, fuck those 33 miners who got extracted from the collapsed mine. I bet at least 33 puppies were kicked to death in the same amount of time. What about them?!

I don't know about you, but I'm incapable of omniscient compassion. I need to focus on one thing at a time.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

i actually did care that they made it out alive. if i was in their shoes, id want my government to help me out as much as the chilean government helped these guys.

what i dont care about is the sensaltionalism of it all.

These guys did what they did to survive a few weeks with no sunlight. it was a great story when it first broke a few weeks ago. They got found and they were rationing their food. thats what anyone else would have done. but tomake this out into a story of survival is utter nonsense. out of the 33 down there , 0% of them died. Even the ones with heart conditions, diabtetes and HBP issues survived. tells you a lot about the 'miraculous survival' that these guys went through.

its a great story that people got through this. im glad no one died. but all i see from the whole beat-up is book sales and 60 minute exclusives.

sensationalism sucks dogs balls.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

genuinegirly

The reason why this news story has gotten so much attention is because it so so abnormal - the fact that they were able to survive the collapse, that they didn't get trapped further as they worked to expand their living space, and that people cared enough to get them out. It is an example of humanity's compassion.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

dlish

mine collapses and deaths are a monthly occurance in places like china. people just odnt hear about them, because well...they're....chinese.

the only abnormal thinga bout it is that the guys didnt die. and they didnt die because they were so far away from the collapse itself.

i dont think anyone here doubts that people will help others when in need. whether you're in the battlefield, helping an old lady up off the pavement or helping yor kids do their homework. compassion is a part of human existance.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

I think this is why I don't buy into the negative responses here; it's because I don't buy into the sensationalism, nor do I expose myself to it.

I really had no idea how big this story was. I just knew it was happening.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

How are you framing these responses as negative? And you don't expose yourself to sensationalism despite being online? It's everywhere.

Don't take up stand-up comedy anytime soon. And who said anything about an asinine concept like "omniscient compassion?" You can focus on one thing all you want, but let's try to put it at a wider scope. But, yeah, I get it; I'm done here. I apologize for the unwanted reality check.

*changes channel back to Dancing with the Stars*

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

What was that, Negative Nancy?

No. I don't. It's not everywhere. It's only everywhere if you don't have the discipline to turn elsewhere.

No need to apologize. You're just looking at this situation with a wider mindset and that bothers you. It bothers you because there are shitty things going on elsewhere, and I get that. But the point for me is that this story of the miners is about 33 miners trapped in a Chilean mine, who were there for two months until they were extracted spectacularly one by one up a makeshift elevator. The story is not about Haiti, it's not about miners dying in West Virginia, or about those who starved to death.

It doesn't do any good to focus on the "crackers" who glue themselves to CNN and Fox. There are other people in the world, you know. You yourself have pointed that out. Why the censure? You should write for Adbusters.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

it's easy and useful to make a separation between the fact those miners got out---which is a good thing---and the television sporting event that was made from it (complete with breaks for commercials! yay advertising delivery!)--and another between this remarkable single instance and conditions in the mining industy in general (which are pretty lousy for a whole lot of people). these seem obvious.


what bugs me in this thread is the assumption that if you aren't watching tv and responding as prompted that you're an awful person.

packaged compassion is nothing, really....you sit on your couch and say "yay chilean miners" and feel elevated as a person. but really, you're sitting on your couch watching tv and reacting as you're told to between segments of vital advertising.

i mean, it's fun and all, 33 little melodramas, 33 reunion sequences, 33 reasons to say "yay chilean miners!" and "yay 24/7 cable infotainment outlet!" and "yay me for watching!"

but the point can't really be "yay chile" because, well, i don't remember seeing any threads about the earthquakes in chile a few months ago, nor to i remember any sniffy passive-aggressive remarks about the lack of threads about the earthquake....i mean if being all "yay chile" is such a big deal, be consistent.....but then again neither the earthquake nor the slow painful recovery process played well on tv and certainly didn't lend itself to sporting-event coverage. and we don't feel good about ourselves watching all that debby downer footage about rubble and infrastructure breakdown.

so the chilean miner story---not the situation, but the television event that turned the rescue into 33 mawkish little meodramas----is really about you the consumer. it's really about getting you to spend and entire day experiencing vital advertising and doing it in a context that allows you to come away thinking "how grand everything is" and provides the extra fun and excitement of justifying getting all righteous & snarky when others don't affirm your pre-packaged relation to your own pre-packaged emotions in the way the packaging indicates they should be doing.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

snowy

Me too. I actually had to work a 40-hour week this week for once, and also don't have TV, so anything I've heard about this has been a brief snippet while in my car on the way to work, or once I got home. There's no computer or radio at work (well, there is, but we aren't allowed to use said computer, and only one of my other staffers wants to listen to public radio with me). Suffice it to say--my feelings are definitely not the same as other people here.

Sure, it's amazing that they were able to survive and be rescued, but seriously--would we even know about this story if it weren't for the modern media?

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Baraka_Guru

It's a difficult thing to get your head around.

I mean, China continues to put the squeeze on Tibetans. Monks are unjustly imprisoned and even tortured (and have been for decades), physically and psychologically oppressed for their faith. The Tibetan culture is struggling to survive under Chinese authoritarianism, while their spiritual leader lives out his remaining years as an outlaw. I bet more people would care if there were some kind of live feed following these guys around.

Now, everyone, go ahead and take a home inventory of items "Made in China." There's your show of support.

When will everyone be Tibetan for a day? Just one day?

But don't get me wrong. It's perfectly fine, and hoped, that you would root for these Chilean miners and their plight. At the same time, it's important to realize how easy it is to lose perspective.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Jove

Huzzah!

If I were trapped in a mine for 69 days, I probably would retire from my occupation.

sweet release

i am so glad they all got out safely.

watched some of the live coverage and it was very emotional

the poor families..

__________________
These Stories don't mean anything if you've got no-one to tell them to.


I know you feel like the walls are closing in on you, it's hard to find release and people can be so cold.

silent_jay

...

ring

I'm just glad they all came up safe.
My emotions weren't pre-packaged.
I certainly didn't feel 'yay me' for watching or 'elevated as a person.'
That seems a bit harsh.
My little 'piss off' comment to Niner was in jest, but I guess it came across wrong.
Yikes.

Cynthetiq

I think that one has to remember that not everyone sees the same heroics and good that comes from every event. Some maybe jaded and cynical to events and actions that are different than your own.

I was having dinner by myself last night at a Mexican restaurant. I wasn't interested in watching, and people were cheering the Spanish TV. Me, I was lamenting about the fact I was having dinner alone, something that I hate more than anything in the world. When I looked up to see the 22nd person come up, and the rest of the restaurant cheered, I looked back down at my ebook of Let the Right One in and cut another slice off my enchilada. I didn't really care much about the event. I think it's great that they didn't die but I had my own concerns at the moment.

As far as contributions, thanks Shani.

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Strange Famous

The point isnt really the physical hardship they suffered (although I doubt any of us would be so blase if we went through it)

The point is - from a narrative point of view - that for 17 days they dead and then they were brought back to life

A small country, achieving a rescue that is beyond anything that has been technically done before by anyone, the return to life of these men... I think I and most people do not share your cyncism.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

...

Plan9

Looks like we uncovered another Universal Life Excuse #1.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

silent_jay

...

kramus

At the end of the day, what is important is this. The freakin' cave no longer holds people. They went up a meticulously engineered tube riding in that custom built space-age high tech capsule and are now enjoying the sunshine again.

screen grab of the last rescuer heading up

__________________
And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ...
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dlish

how's it a miraculous survival? this miracle didnt happen just once or twice, it happened 33 times. no one got physically hurt, everyone stayed sane, they all had a shave before they came up, they had access to news, they had cameras down there and were communicating with their families etc. it seems like the only thing they didnt have was sunlight. and you dont really need that for survival.

water - check
food - check
oxygen - check
clothes - check
medication - check

everything else is an extra when it comes to essential human survival

sure, ive never been in a mine, and no i dont know what kind of conditions its like down there, not do i want to be, but judging by the % rate of survival, it think it's safe to say it couldnt have been dire. i have no idea what sort of ventilation they had in there, but its obvious that it couldnt have been extremely bad if 33 guys spent 70 odd days down there.

again, im glad they made it out alive, but top ranking news it aint.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

Why, because these situations are a dime a dozen?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

no, because i dont think it deserves the live feeds for something that isnt truely miraculous. round the clock live feeds, and now ive seen a headline that these guys are supposedly asking 40K a pop for an interview. good luck to them. they need to look after themselves and their families

but this hooha by the media is about money.

fwiw, i was more interested in the UFO sighting in NYC today.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

roachboy

and that's i think one way in which the teevee circus might bring about a positive outcome. alot of people who have difficult dangerous jobs would rather not have to work those difficult, dangerous jobs any more. i think these folk should cash in on this while they can and soak the teevee networks for every dime they can get. they should charge for product placement ops, which are all the corporate gifts they've been showered with are. they should cash in and hopefully for them, none of these guys will ever have to see the inside of another mine again. except maybe when they go to a museum. or appear on teevee retrospectives.

why not?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dlish

exactly, why not?

but their managers will now need to fill 33 roles for the ones these guys just gave up. its not like their jobs will disappear and no one is going to fill them up. these miners get paid 3 times the average salary in chile. their jobs will be picked up in no time. dangerous job or not, some people have mouths to feed.

one good thing to come out of this is that safety in mines will become paramount, and thats of course a great thing.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Plan9

Safety in mines cuts into profitability. We can't have that. To think otherwise demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge as to how such businesses are run, especially in poorer countries where the government is at the mercy of industries that keep it out of the stone age. The United States, one of the most job-safe nations on the planet, can't even keep miners alive. What makes anybody think Chile ("Who? Where?") can do any better?

...

I'm sensing a new Survivor spin-off that ADD America will glue their plump asses to the couch for:

Survivor - San Jose Mineshaft!

/not serious

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dlish

i know all about safety. i work in construction.

And i couldnt agree more, safety does cut into profitability on one end of the scales. but on the other hand, safety also means higher efficiency and happier workers which again leads to better efficiency and high output which in effect could safe a lot of money (we're talking interest costs on land aquisition, interest on construction, time bonuses for early completion etc).

so you cant discount safety as just a cost. safety adds value to the bottom dollar too.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Plan9

I know it's a crippled camel, but I'll kick it anyway:

Safety does not necessarily mean higher efficiency. Safety requires time and money. Time is money so safety requires money and money.

If we were sitting at a bar I'd tell you all about my job and how safety cuts into profitability like whoa. And the results of said whoa.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dlish

yes, safety IS money. But in construction, if you can make a safe site, you're halfway to making higher profits.

You're less inclined to get OH&S fines from the municipality (which saves money), you wont have higher worker protection premiums (which saves money), your site is not likely to get closed by the unions, which could end up into overruns on time for which you may have to pay liquidated damages to your subcontractors for delays, not to mention other time related costs set out in the contracts, as well as your running costs on your own overheads and preliminaries.

to be honest i dont know exactly what you do in your job, but in mine, it pays to be safe.

fyi - we wouldnt be at a bar because i dont drink...unless its hooters.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Plan9

I'd imagine Dubai/Australia (wealthy) isn't as bad as South America as far as safety regulations and enforcing actual standards.

There is an absolutely awful Hooters with flat-ass girls right next to my apartment in the states. I go there all the time. Come visit.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

roachboy

mine safety--->obviously another potential side-benefit.

but how much infotainment was provided about conditions in this mine, the type of mine that it is, the structural problems of this sort of mining, who owns these mining outfits what the materials are used for so to what extent is sitting on your ass on a couch watching teevee complicit in keeping people like these folk in mines like that one?

context. teevee aint so good at it. it cuts into vital advertising time.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Gringobr

Does anybody know if Jeff Hart and the others are atheists?

StanT

I'm having a hard time coming up with a context where that would be relevant.
The guy that dug the hole is among the best in the world at what he does, not sure his religious beliefs have any bearing on anything.


This is a feel good story.

Take a 2 minute sample of the news outlet of your choice:

Political mud slinging ... facts optional
Suicides, murder
Unemployment

As hard news, this is marginal; but it certainly beats another "The sky is falling" scenario from yet another op ed piece.

Gringobr

His religion or lack of has nothing to do with his excellent work
He is a true professional, and seems to be the best in the world
I admire the fact he quietly went home afterwards without wanting kudos
we need more people like him in the world

The_Jazz

I'm with StanT - I still don't see how his religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are at all relevant to the story as a whole or the discussion here.

As for the rest of this thread, it seem clear to me that some people love feel good stories and others couldn't care less.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

silent_jay

...

Plan9

If you run out of occupation-based holier-than-thou comments, Silent_Jay, I've got a whole bunch of them I posted in 2007. You can use some of those.

Sure, I don't know what it's like to be underground. But I know what it's like to be in an obsolete bomb suit inches away from a neon pink IED.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

silent_jay

...

ring

Jazz, it's not such a 'care or not care' matter, really.
I sense the disgust for our round the clock so called news machine
& its spun-sugar non-substance. I share many of the same sentiments.

I watched cnn for a short while that day, until the nausea was too much to bear.
Switched over to a local channel in Spanish.

Information about that particular mine, mining in general..etc,
are only a few clicks away for the mildly curious & the deeply concerned, alike.

Much information is available to people that have access to a computer or the basic
knowledge to operate one. But I'm curious as to how many folk actually do avail,
or can avail themselves of said. Poverty, age, complacency,...many factors are at play.

Plan9

Okay, but which elite? The elite that like the story or the elite that don't like the story? C'mon, man. The only elitist here is Jazzypoo and he's fine.

And you didn't explain anything, chief. You threatened to explain things but then you went and pulled a Plan9 and edited your posts.

Dude, nobody is attempting to trivialize these human beings. I'm just trying to understand why this and not something more important or beneficial.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."