This is so embarrassing
 

Alabama Gov. Candidate Tim James: "We Speak English. If You Want to Live Here, Learn It"

I can't believe this arrogant ass. He went to my high school, and he was an idiot then and he is an idiot now.
People like this, who are in the minority, give the South a bad name.

Gawker also picked this story up.

Anyway, this is nothing new, at least in my opinion. Southern rednecks, especially in the areas around Oklahoma, Texas, and Alabama, have this weird tick that sets them off: it's foreign immigrants who they vehemently believe "refuse" to learn English, just to make life hard on them. There was a thread somewhere near Tilted Entertainment that was going the same way as well.

The thing is, up until 3 or 4 hundred years ago, those states belonged to either France, Spain, or Mexico, so the whole "be American and speak American, or get up and move on" shtick is really a contradiction, as they aren't the real Americans who were there for generations before.

My husband's grandfather moved from Quebec to the United States soon after he married his American bride. He was so proud of his American citizenship, he refused to speak anything other than English. The only problem with that resolution was that, at first, he only knew about 5 words. He made it work, though, and he quickly learned the language. His stubbornness shaped the opinions of his children - a bit too much.

Perhaps this politician's background is similar?

o.k., Research Port St. Joe, FL, (the original capital) or maybe St. Augustine, FL (the oldest U.S. City). N. Fl is far more southern than you think, we are the "Red Neck Riviera".

What I wonder, is just how American your statement is, no less than theirs, you would basically kick Americans out for not acting more, in your perception, "American" hmmmm....

Not all red necks are southern and not all southerners are red necks, do you know what a real red neck is, really? They are like crackers off horses, pioneers and blue collar workers, they are Americans.

p.s. everything from Maryland down on the east is South, that would include D.C. so, I'm thinking it's not the south, it's the individual, right?

I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Perhaps you mistook my statement. I'm well-versed in my Floridian history, as I lived there for more than a decade, still visit it from time to time, and I do know my "Mason-Dixon line", as well as a whole heap of Md. and D.C. tirivial knowledge. Also, I'm not your enemy here (if that's what you were referring to, which I'm still really not sure).

I refer to rednecks as the bigoted Southerners general population who feel it is their right, because of where they were born and what was afforded to them upon birth, to stand up fro what they believe, so much so that they outcast and disparage anyone who would dare not "assimilate" to their ways, because, well, for lack of better term, there is no better way to live than as an American, "in America".
This is a redneck's "Southern Burning Pride", and it seems as though this Tim James is no different, but a true-to-life example of this sterotype.

What I am saying is that Tim James ain't no redneck he just an ignorant man, a rreeeaaaalllll ignorant man. See, we rednecks would be far to drunk to say some shit like that and not fall over laughing, what a moron, one test...... I am a redneck, born and reared in the south, grew up in trailers and played in the bog-in mud. I lived in a small town where integration was greatly noticed, and the tracks still separated north from south of color. This disease of the uneducated shitheads isn't just a southern bug, ignorance is rampant throughout all the U.S., the world.

I am tired of the South being labeled the red headed step child, cause that don't change the fact that we is family.

Some southerners are proud of their heritage, redneck is the term for a farmer, a hard working, blue collar, piss poor, farmer. Cracker is the name for a cattle herder, cracking the whip, these labels mean an entirely different thing to many people, what you basically said was that I was a foreigner in my own home because some jack ass ignorant politician acted like a big boob and he was from the south harsh.

I don't take much personal, I don't give much personal, especially to someone I don't really know. Maybe I can get to know you and I will let you hurt my feelings then, enemy, huh?

The comment about MD south being southern was meant for "give the south a bad name" the south is a really big place, we are not all ignorant, and James does not represent the south, he represents narrow, uneducated, jerk.

As far as I'm concerned the English America thing is a lot like Hitler being against smoking. Just because someone you'd otherwise consider deplorable also agrees with something you would agree with doesn't mean you suddenly need to pull an about face.

So just because a lot of hick assholes also think that we should legislate English as the official language of the country and put a stop to this "No speak english" BS, usually from people who regularly attend protests where they wave another country's flag while demanding more concessions, doesn't mean I don't agree with it as well.

2/3rds of my family is spread out from Morocco to Jerusalem, not one of them has ever thought needing to know English to be a citizen or resident of America was a problem anymore than they would think learning Spanish is to do the same in Spain.

There is a difference between a dominant language and an official language. The fact English is the dominant language is simply something people need to cope with to some degree in order to live here. Making English the official language is an outright rejection of our immigrant roots and of our melting pot culture. At this rate, over time, Spanish may very well become the dominant language of the United States. You know what? I have no problem with that. Much like I have no problem with the fact English replaced French in Louisiana, Dutch in New York, German in the northern midwest, and Spanish in the southwest. I love the fact that I live in a country that refuses to officially declare one method of communication superior to another, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I hope it's just the attitude that ticks you off and not the idea.
Speaking as an immigrant, I think everybody can benefit when all of us speak English (that doesn't mean you have to forsake your native tongue, or not learn another language, by the way).

No, we're the Americans who intelligently killed everything that was a threat to us. That is how things are accomplished.


Intelligent killing --- Group of people killing things that need to die.
Large cats, bears, etc
Aggressive tribesmen, especially the sort that scalp the women.


Unintelligent killing -- Group of people that are their own enemies, therefore they just kill eachother and anything else, pretty much.


We're the people who teamed up to tame the world around us.

We program into the world. We don't program in the world.

I really don't get this obsession with making English the official language. It really doesn't do what people think it does. Making English the official language doesn't force anyone to use or learn English. It also doesn't prevent the government from printing forms in other languages or providing programs to teach English to non-speakers. Making a language the official language of anything is largely symbolic.

English is the worlds biggest bastard of a lingo. Fuck it with a rusty pole. :thumbsdown:
I wish I knew other languages.

I think in some ways we are all rednecks, no matter where we're from.
We each have our own idiosyncrasies or mannerisms that other peoples find weird or funny.

There are other words to describe the guy from the OP link, though. Trash, being one.

I hear this statement numerous times a day here in NC. While not every redneck is going to say it, the hardcore rednecks are notorious for saying this and worse when it comes to minorities.

I think it benefits everyone if they learn English, but I'm not going to stop people from using their native language, just as I'm not going to stop people from learning a different language other than English. I don't understand why people would get so angry at people for speaking their native tongue.

Between this and the stupidity in Arizona, I just don't understand this country anymore.

I agree. This is xenophobia under the guise of "better business" and "public safety." I can't believe this guy is ramping up his platform with hatred and propaganda. He's doing a disservice to everyone.

What's particularly interesting---assuming he's not a rank idiot----is the thought that this kind of thing might actually work. In many parts of the world, this would have been political suicide.

Hey, now! :surprised:

Studies have shown that the first generation of immigrants are not as likely to learn the English language as their children. I really don't see the problem with this. And I live in Florida which has a huge immigrant population, so it's not as if I don't have to 'deal' with it. I don't have much patience for people who get hung up on having to hear or see another language throughout the course of their day, let alone have to *gasp* try to communicate with them. The horror!

As for rednecks, call them what you like, but they do exist (in the millions) which is exactly why this governor is pandering in public like a fool. Nothing like a little morning reactionary rhetoric to get the bobble-heads panting and blubbering...and voting.

It's the south. Propaganda always works.

One slight, teeny tiny, correction - CANDIDATE for governor, and NOT the governor. Governor Riley is bad enough as it is here in Alabama without saying that this idiot Tim James is already the governor, too.

Otherwise, the "like a fool" part is spot on.

Some perspective might help, also. When Tim James' father was governor of Alabama in the late 70's - early 80's, things got so bad that we IMPROVED our situation by bringing George Wallace back.

Take a sip of coffee and let that sink in a bit.

ah, admittedly I am not up on my Alabama governors :p
thanks for putting me on the right track.

as a son of 'immigrants' i think i can agree that that immigrants need to learn the language of the land to be able to become citizens of that country. If you intend on living a life and being supported by that government, then you need to become an active member in that community. period.

I'd love to be personally responsible to ship back anyone i knew that didnt want to learn the language of the land and just sucks up the resources of the country without giving anything back to it.


what i wont have is someone telling me that as a contributing member of my community that i wasnt entitled to speak in my parents mother tongue.

Well, the problem (ostensibly) is not that they aren't learning English per se, but that there are government forms and other information in languages other than English, the de facto lingua franca according to this candidate.

This is not to say enough people aren't learning enough of the "language of the land" to get by. You see, when it comes to official things, especially government and banking sorts of things, the language of the land can get really difficult when it's your second language, and there is a lot at stake.

A better approach would be to set up some sort of program to help first generations to learn the language free of charge. This isn't saying they can't speak their native tongue or that if they can't speak English they should leave, it's just saying "hey, we know you're ESL and we're here to help you." Likewise, people should be all for learning other languages other than their native tongue. Even rednecks :p

This would certainly help things like the banking and government things wouldn't it?

Well, what I think this all boils down to is that traditional good ol' American practice of assimilation.

Where places like Canada continue to work with the pros and cons of a multicultural society, people in places like Alabama continue to hope for a "real American" society.

Hola, me llamo es cuello de rojo, mucho gracias mi agigo/as, esta usted? :p

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

why is it location, location, location... shouldn't it be uneducated individuals, uneducated individuals, dumb people.......

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

p.s. resistance is futile. hehehe

Well because most rednecks live in rural area's. You don't see many people waving confederate flags on their front balconies in New York City.

there are rednecks and bigots everywhere, however, there seems to be a higher percentage of bigotry in the south..at least towards immigrants.. arizona not withstanding ;)

this isn't a south bashing thread, it's just a thread pointing towards a candidate that is spouting propaganda to get the republican and/or "real amerika" voters to vote in his favor.

Yeah, I'm no racist, but DAMN niggers are stupid! Crazy darkies'll fall for anything!

[/SARCASM]

Not a South-bashing thread? My ass.

So you think that if it was a NY candidate that people wouldn't be saying the same shit? People would be even more upset about it. Why is that exactly? Perhaps because a lot of what is seen and heard in the south revolves around ignorance?

I hear Nigger, Spic, darkies etc more than any other singular descriptive word every day around here. Sure, there are non-bigots and good people in the south, and there are bigots and ignorants up north, nobody is saying this is a purely southern problem. The fact that it's a southern candidate though, it will not raise too much issue and he'll probably be voted into office.

Considering how it keeps getting conveniently forgotten (in schools and message-boards) that it was Boston, MA which pioneered the use of fire-hoses and German Shepherds to break up Civil Rights marches...no, I don't think they'd be saying the same shit. I think it'd get ignored the same way Northern racism typically is. After all; they went and fought that big war to free the slaves, so Northerners can't be racist. All the movies tell me so. It's impossible.

Seen and heard by those who are incapable or unwilling to see that ignorance and racism are everywhere, and who are much more interested in having "proof" of their own prejudices and culturally-imperialist biases.

So do I. From a -vast- MINORITY of my customers and people with whom I interact daily.

Really?

Although strictly speaking this seems to be suggesting that rather than racism being a purely Southern problem, Southerners are purely racist. Either way, it's horseshit. Likewise this crap:

I recommend either of the following therapies for cranio-rectal inversion:
1: If Black, walk alone and unarmed through Little Odessa. You'll know you're in the right place when the signs change to Cyrillic and several large Ukrainian gentleman offer to assist you in returning to Africa in a box.
2: If any colour other than Black, walk alone and unarmed through Harlem. Watts or Cabrini Green will also suit for those who can't make it to NYC.

Lots of Southern folks have really begun to run out of patience with being caricatured as ignorant, racist, inbred and backwards by people who's primary motive seems to be the wish to validate their smugly self-satisfied sense of their own cultural and genetic supremacy. I'm one of 'em.

Maybe I'll just start throwing around equally-ignorant Southern stereotypes about Yankees?

Wow, do you guys seriously hear racist slurs everyday? I can't remember the last time I heard one.

Although I can't speak for Grancey who created this thread (and Lord knows, everytime I've ever tried to speak for her, I've been dead wrong), I think I can at least explain what I believe this thread to be about.

I view this thread as a disclaimer. I think Grancey wants everybody to know that while Tim James is running around making an ass of himself, it's important for our TFP family to know that most of us proud Alabamians think he's an idiot, too. And since she went to high school with him, she has the inside track on perspective.

What the rest of you do with this thread is up to you.

Go right ahead and throw around your ignorant stereotypes about Yankees. Won't bother me one bit.

Seems to be a higher percentage of bigotry in the south is merely pointing out that I see it and hear it more often down here. You can't say that the notions aren't going to be there from the past, although, I will give you tons of credit on the Boston stat.

I won't fault you for being perceived a certain way and not being happy about it, but I've repeatedly said that bigotry and racism are everywhere, I was merely stating something that I see every day. Big fucking deal. You want to start throwing Yankee stereotypes out to feel like you're getting even, then go right ahead.. whatever blows your skirt.


Baraka: yes, I hear them everyday.. and not just once either.

-THAT- I have no problem with. The OP was not something with which I took issue. My problem was with the South-bashing which started soon after.

Gucci:

I'll admit I jumped your case a bit. Mea culpa. My issue was with several comments further up the thread which I saw your "not a south-bashing thread" comment as excusing. Since this does not seem to have been your intent, I apologize.

My more general points regarding anti-Southern cultural imperialism, however, stand.

Fair enough. :handshake:

Everyone around me and on here knows that I am not at all fond of the south. However, it would be wrong of me to say that I haven't met good people here and that not everyone is a bigot or a racist. It was also not my intent to run Grancey's thread into the ground or to take it somewhere where she didn't want it to go.

I don't know many people in Alabama, so I don't know if a candidate spouting this type of ignorance will be elected into office, but it wouldn't surprise me. However, this type of thing pales in comparison to the shit being considered in Arizona.

People like this make it harder every year to consider myself a proud southern boy. Like gluv, I see the bad side of the south daily (not as much here [clinton nc], but I think it's just covered up more) and a lot of it comes from my family. When you are raised by people who hate for no other reason and religion/color, it makes it hard to "get out of" that mind frame. My family throws around racial slurs and homophobia like they are talking about the weather. I hear it from most of the clients I had at my old job and from my boss. It happens. You can be pissed about it or you can just let it slide off of you and know that YOU are the better person. That's what I try and do.

"Hope you went to the doctor recently, cause when niggercare comes into law, everyone is going to get sick and die."

"I don't like the new guy, let's drop him off in niggertown and see what happens."

People suck.

On the other hand, there are great people in the south that will stop to help you if you are the side of the road, hold doors open for people, give up a seat on a bus, or just generally be good people to complete strangers.

You take the good with the bad, just like any town/state/country/whole fucking world.

I say it now and I will always say it, I'm a proud southern boy and that ain't going to change.

I see now. You identify yourself as a redneck, and therefore you were offended by my generalized statements of an all-encompassing defintion of what a redneck may be. I still mean no offense, but from what I've come to learn over the decades of my travels all across the Sunbelt and Bible Belt, there are rednecks everywhere as you say, from California to Florida, even displaced as far up as in New York, and anywhere in-between. Sure, people may have different takes on what they refer to themselves as, and how they would like to be viewed, but in my experience, redneck is somewhat of a derogatory term, kind of in the same way as calling one a nerd, or a musclehead.

Some embrace the term, live by it, or try to change its meaning by example, and make it mean something not quite so stinging. But still, this debate is not about whether or not my applied definition is right, or whether I'm in the wrong for using it to describe the ignorant statements of a Southern would-be politician. It's just that his stance, along with his political ties with both his father, and siblings in the family, show something that is very akin to "be one of us, or don't be a part of this town (city, county, state) at all".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8.../IMAGE_080.jpg

Saw this on a mailbox today. Thought it was appropriate in all it's possible meanings.

Make that 2, which is why I didnt even bother with this discussion last night. BTDT

Well said too, BTW, can I use this as a sig?

I am a lifelong southerner and I took no offense at anything that was said. Plus, I think it's pretty significant that most of the people that talked about 'southerners' here are actually southerners themselves. In addition, you can thank the southern gentleman in the OP for the most egregious negative characterization of southerners on this thread. Surely, with a little internet research, you can find an address to write and tell him so. ;)

Back to the whole English language issue, whether someone chooses to learn the language or not is of no more consequence to 'us' than whether someone chooses to get a drivers license or finish high school. People who don't learn it, will find themselves limited - in jobs, in friendships, in communicating what they want on their steak sandwiches (look I referenced a yankee bigot! :p) - but as much as someone wants to make it their business, it just isn't. And it doesn't hurt or deprive you of anything. People can attribute it to all kinds of paranoid things - they don't want to assimilate, they love their own country better than this one, blah, blah, blah - but the fact is there is going to be a proportion of the population that learns and a proportion that figures staying in their own neighborhood where people understand them and working menial jobs is good enough for them. Maybe they are intimidated, experiencing culture shock, or their education is limited. It's not a phenomenon that should be that hard to understand when you put down reactionary judgements and think of them as individuals instead of this mass of 'immigrants.'

Sure it would be great if they all, in between working and taking care of their families, learned to speak what is admittedly a difficult language to learn. Just as it would be great if all natural born Americans would learn to actually speak, spell and write coherent sentences in English themselves. *pipe dream*

Let us build a utopia together.... :)

Here are some nice tidbits from Tim James's website:
It's not all bad, these are simply the things that set off warning bells in my head in the "I'm glad he's not vying for public office in Canada" sort of way.

I'm down for that, mixedmedia and Baraka.

I'm from an immigrant family--I'm a first generation American on my father's side of the family. He immigrated here as a child with his family and grew up speaking mostly Dutch at home. My grandfather worked in the hotel industry and had already learned English back in the Netherlands at hotel school. My grandmother had a much more difficult time of it, and it wasn't until my father had a sympathetic teacher in early elementary school that my grandmother was able to receive some extra language instruction. The teacher took it upon herself to teach my dad and grandmother English. This is, of course, well before the development of English Language Learner programs. My dad was basically expected to sink or swim when it came to learning the language, and that is the prevailing attitude still when it comes to teaching adults how to speak English.

Learning a new language as an adult is difficult, certainly not as easy as it is when we are children. There are distinct sensitive periods for language development. Optimally, everyone would learn a foreign language before the age of 12 (when neuronal pruning really starts taking off). However, we live in the United States where people are seemingly afraid of foreign language, which strikes me as bizarre in an increasingly globalized world.

The point is, we need to offer adult English Language Learners appropriate support and help them to learn English. My grandfather had already learned English before he came here, and so it was easy for him to assimilate. He learned English during a time in his life where language learning was easy, and hotel school structured language lessons so that he not only learned English, but he was fluent in French and German as well, and had a working knowledge of Spanish and Italian. That isn't uncommon in Europe--almost all of my Dutch cousins speak 5 languages. But for my grandmother, who hadn't learned English and who initially didn't have support learning it, it was much more difficult, and a good teacher made all the difference in her ability to learn and master the language of her new country.

We shouldn't expect people to learn English if we're not offering them any help in learning it. I have the utmost sympathy for English Language Learners of all ages, given all the stories I've heard from my own family. This country was built on the backs of immigrants, and statements like the one in the OP do nothing but spit in the eye of all the immigrants who worked hard to make this country what it is, regardless of what language they spoke.

This comment is how I have always known this family to be. People I know that I have talked to about this situation don't support James at all. I would be really surprised if he got elected, but I don't know what the rest of the people in this state are thinking. I will let you know what happens. He did succeed in getting a lot of attention with this ad.

There is a very, very slight undercurrent of southern bashing going on in this thread, but that's ok. I knew the thread would probably take off in different directions . It's a good discussion. I don't take offense. I'm not even offended at being referred to as a "southern gentleman". Last time I checked I was definitely female.

I'm pretty sure mixedmedia was referring to Tim James.

like the old german gentleman said: "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action..."

It's quite appalling overall. His platform isn't all that bad otherwise. It's just that he seems to want to stick it to the immigrants, gays, and pro-choicers, not to mention the non-religious.

me twy to spel rite, sory. ain't got much book learnin. :)

umm...

ok.

That would be correct.
Sorry about that, Grancey. I know who you are. :)

I have the utmost respect for anyone genuinely TRYING to learn english and I'll go quite a bit out of my way to meet them half way on things they're having difficulty with, considering my family did it I'd be a tool to do otherwise.

My problem is that living in Florida I am constantly dealing with people who not only go out of their way to avoid english while working in jobs where they absolutely need it, but also who smugly wave another country's flag in my face while doing so. What race they are and which flag and language it is don't matter to me, it's that they're doing it to begin with that I have a problem with.

shadowex: Minus the language part, you've described behavior that's exhibited even by immigrant groups that have been here for some time. A number of my family members have or have had flag medallions on their cars. You know what flag I've never seen as one of those medallions? The American flag. The Italian flag, however, was on every single one of them. In one particular case where my uncle married a woman from Mexico, it was joined by the Mexican flag. For reference, my family came over about 100 years ago. These aren't even recent immigrants exhibiting this behaviour. Or you can go to certain communities in the Chicago area where you'll see a bunch of Polish flags, not American flags, and people who speak primarily polish. The bank Onodrim works at has signs in Polish to better serve those customers. Or, uh, certain areas of the south where you'll mainly see Confederate flags ;) It's all over.

Guess what: you live in a multicultural country. It's time to get over it.

Yea, they're just funnin. :)
me twy to spel rite, sory. ain't got much book learnin.

Wow. Good job Dave. Way to take things out of context.

Tried to edit that mess some what, I was only joking just as I was about using The_Dunedan's quote as a sig.

Lighten Up Dude

You think that's embarassing? I have to get my postcount up to 15 tonight so I can finally post images in my thread tonight about recreational drugs!

Does your thread involve http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...divinorum.html ?

No, cannabis. Is it anything like Salvia?

I'm curious about how drugs work - I was never satisfied with the explanations I received in my earlier days. Not a big fan of being some kind of fanboy for a plant, but I'm earnestly interested in learning about them considering I'll be applying to study chemistry/biology @ University in the very near-term. I don't want to make an overly clinical approach to the subject as a person who has never actually experienced any of the experiences he sets out to document and learn about, hence the entire curiosity thing. I'm also not interested in becoming dependent. However, I am interested in their potential applications.

Part of me already knows the answer to all of this, if you know what I mean. Anyway - just say no to thread-jacking.

I hear a train.

It seems apparent that it is all a matter of perception. I live in Florida, as well. 20+ years in the Orlando area and close to a year now in SW FL. Meaning that I have encountered most likely tens of thousands of immigrants in my life. I can't ever remember a time when their inability to speak my language or the display of their home flag on their car or clothing felt like a personal affront.

'


That is absolutely right. These things have happened, now it is time to deal with it..

Best thing to do is be aware of what you're up against.

Yeah, we have a Dutch flag that we hang, and I've been meaning to order my Oranje jersey before the World Cup starts. ;)

I've got an Israeli and Finnish flag in my room right now, and that's no more what I was talking about than what you describe. Don't be disingenuous, it doesn't suit you.

This thread makes me think of this one quote:

I was under the impression that, based on the get-yer-citizenship process, changing your allegiance from your former country and adopting the United States as your new home is part of being a good citizen in the United States.

Some people don't like that homework attached to that. And some people can't even change allegiance.

Seems that we, of the world, are citizens on paper, not in action.

...

Also:

It's really sad the only mention of "patriotism" today is that present when crazy white guys in camo give doomsday speeches.

How did patriot become synonymous with extremist nutjob?

/rambling

How is someone hanging a Puerto Rican flag on their rear view mirror, for instance, evidence that they don't have an allegiance to this country?

Patriotism is a word that people are free to interpret in their own way. Including Kenny Powers whoever the hell he is.

Are you being serious? Okay, I'll assume you are: It isn't. That wasn't my point. I was just rambling about mindset.

oh, ok. nevermind. :p

Yeah, I mean... there are plenty of useless dipshits that have American Flag stickers on their bumpers.

In some parts of the country? That's how you pick 'em out.

...

Economic segregation has really destroyed civic activity.

How might one feel if a muslim was seen driving a VW bus with the Iranian flag covering the side?

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p.../iran_flag.jpg

Uh, just about the same as I'd feel for any other flag. I'm sure your scenario could be found in LA, the Iranian expat capital of the world. Oddly, LA doesn't have a serious terrorism problem. Go figure.

we really need to have a few drinks together, buddy...

Turns out the United States doesn't have a serious terrorism problem.

Would you agree with the opinions expressed here?

that's because most of the people outside of iran have left because they do not support the current government. the vast majority are quite liberal in their political and religious views. I see that a lot here too.

daveorion - im glad to see that you think that muslims and iranians are synonymous enough that you think all muslims support iran and its looney ideas. FYI Iranians make about possibly 5% of the worlds muslim population.

And for the record i wouldnt be caught dead with an iranian flag.

dlish: I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion based on my post. I simply asked how "anyone" would feel if they saw this. My own opinion is conspicuously absent.

That's part of my point, though I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me.

Flags mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The Iranian flag is not limited to displays of support for Ayatollah Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

So why don't you actually spell out what you are talking about, and tell which flags you don't want to see, or what being "waved in your face" means?

There is some serious beating around the bush and baiting going on in this thread (and this isn't aimed solely at you). Why don't we actually say what we want to say?

you're right. i misread your post. i should stop reading TFP at 4am.


smeth, not disagreeing with you at all.

however, the current iranian flag represents the views of the iranian regime since the 1979 revolution, but not necessarily the views of ahmadinejad.

more can be read here about the history of the iranian flag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iran

i personally had an australian and a lebanese flag in my office.

we're getting way off track here now.

I think we should return to the recreational drug discussion.

Just for the record, you must have been editing your post when I replied to you. I hate it when you do that.

No kidding. I'm glad we don't have a problem with propaganda up here.

Jesus.

I really need to start using my sarcasm tag more.

I see more lunatics waving amerikan flags than anything else.

Can you see my American Flag....... It's waving. (Why misspell America, what that says to me is just plan disrespect, are you American?)

I would like to think people who come to America would like to be American, share your history, but grasp your present. If you really are so proud of the national flag you wave, then wave it in that nation, be proud to be an American.....

I am an American Patriot, say what you will, I am damn proud of my country, warts and all.

I would like to think that Americans are secure enough in their patriotism that someone showing another flag to them doesn't completely whack them out of shape. So much so that the folks that apparently want to get the government out of out lives and off our backs, would like to micromanage the behavior of others who happen to be fond of where they came from. Based purely on their own narrow idea of what is pro-American and anti-American.

No one on this thread has yet explain how it is that displaying another country's flag equates with a lack of appreciation for this one.

Oh.. so you just blindly support your countrie's actions and call it patriotism? That's not patriotism, that's patronizing the blind and power hungry who sit back and laugh at the poor, the hungry and the tired.. I see all these idiots at these so called "tea parties" who wave the American flag, use the word patriotism 4 times a sentence, and continually down anyone who is not a part of their cause. The videos I've seen show such a lack of knowledge of the country they supposedly love and support that they should be glad that immigrants are here. Legal immigrants probably know more about this country than 75% of those people. This is the AmeriKa that I speak of. Call me disrespectful if you will, but look at the hand that feeds you. It's dirty, corrupt and wipes the mouth that lies with malicious intent.

You're suggesting that people should forget the pride they have for their homeland just because they now reside in a America. What is so horrible about a person waving an iraqi, iranian, puerto rican, mexican, chinese, etc etc etc flag in this country?

Yes, I am American. How is misspelling Amerika disrespectful? It's well within my rights as an American to misspell it if I want. So while you may think that your blind support and pride of your country "warts and all" is more patriotic than someone else, I say it's less patriotic because it does nothing to enact change for the betterment of the country.

MM has a very valid question and point. How does someone displaying a flag of another country in a different country equate to hatred or lack of love for the country they now reside in?


occupied minds
unemployed skills
desolation
worn out
torn down
just for now thrill seekers
slanging
test tube babies in beakers
where gun blasts pump straight from the speakers
the system where the
poor get poorly paid
to hold the ladder
where the rich get ricocheted
into the stratosphere
and in between people are rushin' like vladimir
with metals to make their status clear
get us out of here

we need heroes
build them
don't put your fist up
fill them
Fight with our hopes and our hearts and our hands
we're the architects of our last stand (Flobots-Fight with Tools)

well said gucci and MM

within the same context, my love of australia isnt in any way reduced because of my love for my roots and the country of my parents. in fact my appreciation for both has grown since i decided to reside outside of both.

And while there are other ways of managing issues as a result of immigration, scare mongering will only work on those already converted.

The way i see it, just because im pro [insert non western country here] it doesnt make me anti [insert western country here]

Blindy support??? huh, I said I was proud of my country, warts and all.

I am proud of my son, he has made many mistakes so far and has his warts, I am still proud of him. He does many things I do not approve of, and has done many things that have totally made me wonder, did they change kids at birth, then I remember how retched I was and think how terribly retched his dad must have been (his mom confirms), yet I am still proud of my son and his father because they have both grown and are growing each day and I see them growing even more everyday, all this love and yet, I still support no b.s., and I am not blind to much.

I see America doing this also, trying and trying to grow but unpatriotic people just seem to hold us back, not only themselves, but the young impressionable who read unpatriotic bs, and the slurs against the U.S. and think bad of their own country…… America is a cohesive unit of multicultural glue that creates a mosaic of beauty so amazing as to glow like a beacon on a mountain top, it is filled like a Christmas tree with ornaments of every country, and I am proud to hang among these branches.

How does my Patriotism amount to me being ok with irresponsible behavior at all?

Guccilvr, if you are an American, then the hand that fed you, your mother and your fathers, maybe they were American to, and maybe they were fed by their either American parents or people who came to America, did they vote, and if they did, do you think they tried to make the best decisions they could for not only themselves but for you, for us their kids, and aren’t we all trying to do the same for our kids. I have to say the one greatest thing faith has given me is appreciation for the people of my past who have made my present possible so I may create a better future to be proud of for my children and I intend to do just that. I hope one day my childrens children still have the right to voice their opinions about their country just as you do, I just hope their voice is more optimistic and patriotic.

I said, “share your past,” I would love to know what ingredients went into this great melting pot, but grasp the present, the gift that America offers each human, and that most apparently came here looking for. Yes, these gifts are also found in other countries. I am getting tired of having to try to not to invoke the wrong thoughts from my posts, how you can get, I am blinded to wrong by my pride in my country is indicative of some pretty scarred history to me and I apologize for the pain you have suffered at the hand of bigots, they are wrong, but I am not one of them. Again, I am not always happy with the way my country behaves, but I a damn proud to be a part of it, yes warts and all.

Well said dlish. I'll second that.

I think we lost what the real meaning of the work "patriotism" was along time ago. The spin media got a hold of it and used it as a platform for hate-mongering. The America of today could never truly grasp the morals and ideas that the America of the 1700's held so high that they would fight their mother country to uphold. Having pride in where you were born and believing that you reside in the greatest country in the world is not a bad thing. Using that love to hate others for moving here, having pride in their own country, or even not being "true" to the country they live in is what got us in this shithole to begin with. What was once considered a great and noble thing has now become the platform to keep everyone not a "true American" out of a country that only 100 years ago was called "the melting pot" of the free world.

When did people forget that that our ancestors MOVED here over the last 500 years? When did people forget that starving, homeless, poor immigrants moved here looking for a better life under a different flag? When did America forget that German, Italian, English, African (not always of their own choice), Spanish, Mexican, Swedish, Chinese, and other immigrants moved here because they couldn't claim that they "owned" a piece of land in the world. They saw this uninhabited country just across the ocean with unlimited possibilities for someone willing to spill their sweat and blood into a wilderness ready to be carved into a home they could raise food, livestock, and a family on. When did people forget this? That was your Great-Great-Great-Grandfather who traveled on a over-populated ship (with hardly any food) for months at end just to make it here to pursue a dream that you deny to the same kind of people just 300 years later? What right do you have to say, "My ancestors moved here looking for a better life, but you need to get the fuck out of my country, it's MINE now."?

You may own property in the United States of America, but you don't own America. Get over yourself. I"d like to see some of these "patriots" and "Tea-Partiers" go back to the generation that brought them to this country and say, "You fucking foreigners are coming over here, messing up our infrastructure, our health-care, and taking our jobs! No one wants you here!"

The hard right punch of a man who's hands worked, tilled, dug, and carved out a living in foreign country on a hard patch of barren earth would be sweet justice incarnate.

Idyllic: Please.. please define what makes a person unpatriotic. Do you assume that I am unpatriotic because I don't wave my flag every day or because I say unflattering things about this country and the issues that it faces? If you don't assume that, I'd still REALLY like to hear your definition of unpatriotic.

Eden: amen brotha. amen.

guccilvr, say something good about your country, something you truly believe is great and worthy and something you think the younger generation needs to hear so they can understand how proud you are of your country even when your don't necessarily agree with it politically.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

I don't see your name here, I believe someone who is truly unpatriotic would not live here to begin with, hopefully, and I would look at someone who would wish to see the downfall of our country as an unpatriotic person, I am sure you don't wish that.

huh?

I asked for a definition of unpatriotic since you said "I hope one day my children's children still have the right to voice their opinions about their country just as you do, I just hope their voice is more optimistic and patriotic." which explicitly implies that I am somehow unpatriotic.

So I guess that since I am voicing an opinion in here that is not in agreement to yours I am now labeled as unpatriotic. This has suddenly turned back into ameriKa. True america does not exist and will never exist. The utopia is dead.

There are good and great things that this country has done, but that does not mean that we should as a people turn a blind eye to the horrible things that it has and currently is engaged in. To do so does nothing but rob the people of their voice and without a voice, there is no power.

edit to edit: so, the only definition to unpatriotic is someone who wishes the downfall of America? Hmm.. I'm betting those people are seen as patriots in certain circles. There has to be more to a patriot and an unpatriotic person than that.

Refresh my US History 101 a bit, but wasn't our country founded on the right to criticize the government and make a single person's voice heard no matter what the statement? Are you saying that Gucci doesn't have his 1st amendment rights because he doesn't agree with you? I may not agree with what Gucci says (I argue with him a lot), but I'm not going to tell him he HAS to say something so he agrees with me.

QFT.

I said "I hope their voices are MORE optimistic and patriotic" and just to voice your opinion about this issue says to some degree you care. guccilver, do not give me so much credit as to change your love of your country, even though the "utopia" was never alive to begin with. My edit was adding altogether, no trap set.

Yes, to me the basic definition of an unpatriotic person would be someone who wishes to see their country fail, and acts on it.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

I didn't say don't criticize the government, on the contrary, that is exactly who you should criticize. I said don't criticize the country, for not all those who live within it believe in absolutely everything the government says, but to love it's people as collectively we do try our best to progress positively not only for ourselves but for our world. ("our" as a human here, not specifically as an America.)

So the tea party participators who wish to see Obama fail are bigots and are not as patriotic as they seem? say it isn't so!!

I do not wish to see ANY country fail. I certainly do not wish to see my country fail. I would however like to see my country use the collective brain power and ingenuity to do something other than murder, rape and pillage. This doesn't mean I don't support the troops who are doing their duties, it means I do not support the people who plan this course of action with no just reasoning.

I wish to see a country in which people can embrace the melting pot and not push for a "true america" just because some display countries flags that are not the American variety and for the country to get over itself for once.

This all falls back on the beginning of this thread, James is a bigot, pure and simple, is he a bigot because he is truly xenophobic or does he feel it better defines his constituents, I don’t think so, but, we shall find out via vote (personally, I hope he gets 1 vote, his dads).

I just think as Americans we should try not to separate our people by terms that don’t politically define us and that in turn become derogatory when they typically are just stating location, regardless from what state or n,s,e,w you come from, you ARE an American. If someone is acting like a bigot, call them one, but don’t define their location as such just because of them, they don’t deserve that power or that credit and it hurts those who reside in those areas so very much, both personally and externally, as the youth read these statements and perpetuate ignorant stereotypes.

Obama is not our country; his is a representation of it, voted into office by more that half of its people, but not all. If someone wishes for his failure, that’s not unpatriotic, if it is the entire country they wish to see fail, then yes, they are unpatriotic.

I have no intent of "getting over myself" when it comes to vocalizing just how proud of my country I am. I believe the Melting Pot IS "True America".

And again, just because he's a xenophobic moron to the Nth degree doesn't mean he can't also be on to a good idea with making English the official language.

The only difference between him and some of the people in this thread is that where he is voluntarily ignorant about other races some people in this thread are just as deliberately ignorant about their opposition's arguments when it's convenient to them to make that person appear bigoted. He purposefully assumes the worst about other races intentions even when it's convoluted and illogical, some of us purposefully assume the worst about our opposition's stance even when it's convoluted and illogical.

Foreign nationals move to the country and some bad eggs in a few places (hold on to this thought) become in his mind the entirety of the group, even though that's off the wall and ridiculous, and then he takes a good idea and perverts it with lunacy. I complain about having to deal with many of those bad eggs, particularly when they get together and a near-riot is started in the street by a whole bunch of people smugly waving another country's flag while demanding more from our country and suddenly I'm an ignorant bigot who can't stand people who integrate but respect their heritage despite having multiple other flags myself.

But that's not his idea. His idea is to get rid of tests in languages that aren't in English.

Canada has two official languages: English and French, also known as "official bilingualism." All this means is that for purposes of state and law, English and French are used. So in terms of the courts and the administration of Canadian governments, we use those two languages. However, this does not mean other languages aren't used in official capacities.

Consider this bit from Ontario's DriveTest site:
Don't for a minute think this is about making English official for the sake of eliminating all other forms of communication in certain matters of the public. He made it clear what he wants to do.

I tend to remember the event that started a lot of flag waving from another country. And that was the actions of a foolish old man who decided to crawl up the flagpole of an American citizen's business and rip down the Mexican flag that was flying there. The man who was later touted as a hero among the rabble-rousers of the right.

There is a definite good guy-bad guy scenario that's going on underneath this controversy and it has nothing to do with being patriotic and everything to do with the acceptability of being intolerant. There are those in this country who would like to make it so and millions follow along blindly saying 'yes.' People who have less credit to take for where this country is than the man in the moon yet somehow feel proud to be an American. On good days it turns my stomach.

I love this country, but it's not because of the millions of people around the globe who have suffered to keep me safe and comfortable, but because of the people here who still see. And there are many. Anyone who doesn't see and appreciate what they have without shooting out platitudes about how great this country is I, personally, have very little respect for. It was done in your name, for your sake. Wake the fuck up.

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

For instance, how would you live day to day if you knew you stole an election from another entire country to 'keep your child safe?' Or at least, living in the manner you've been accustomed to? It's documented. It's American history.

I hear you on this one, but I'd like you ask you...

If your child was in danger, what would you not do to protect it?

Of course, that is a different matter entirely, for the majority of political children are just as safe and secure as anyone else.

so, "What dangers are imposed on a controller's child by switching from a world famous private school to the run of the mill public school?"

Perhaps it is necessary to rephrase -

If you were in a position of political power, and had dealt with on many occasions -- the dimwitted rantings of the constituents, why would you NOT ruin their lives to save your own?

I'm saying, when you're at the top, and you're looking down at the masses, and you realize that most of them have never had an original thought in the last 20 years, what stops you from forgetting about their concerns?

Surely it must be similar to staring at dogs in a kennel, or any other animal that cannot speak.

"Woo, you're angry are ya, little rugrat! *YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP* Here you go, have some pocket lint."

Face it.. We're not all equal.

This is indisputable, but not one of our ideals. :thumbsdown: