Walt

In an open discussion in my political science class, a student claimed that "before 'Shrub' took office and invaded Iraq, Americans never had to worry about terrorism at home or abroad."

I responded "Thats the dumbest thing anyone will hear all day. Americans have a long history of being victims of terrorism in and out of the country. Ted Kaczynski, Eric Rudolph, Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Al-Qaeda (1993 WTC), the Beruit Embassy bombing, etc all pre-dated Bush's policies. To suggest that terrorism is some sort of new, Bush-induced phenomenon is flat out wrong."

I was promptly chastised by the professor and told its important to respect other peoples beliefs.

My question is this: Why? Why should I have to respect someones belief that I know to be flat-out wrong? In matters of opinion, I can understand a due respect. Some people believe the Rolling Stones were a better band than The Beatles. Fine, thats a matter of opinion. But when someone told you that they believed the world to be flat or that the Easter Bunny is real, would you respect that or immediately label them an idiot?

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Calmer than you are...

dksuddeth

these are the people that don't care to be bothered with facts or real evidence. they want their 'reality' to be real and uninhibited by others' realities.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

IdeoFunk

An important part in debate, I think, has to be mutual respect between parties. When it is absent people tend to just run with their emotions and that usually causes things to disintegrate and become meaningless. This case is obviously a bit different, seeing as it wasn't a debate and that was remarkably absurd thing for anybody to say. But I can definitely see the professor taking exception to the way you interjected. For one it was a tad arrogant and also I'm sure the last thing a prof wants is students getting heated up and bickering and correcting each other all lecture long.

Sometimes it's hard to correct people without seeming like you're picking on them.

FuglyStick

You don't have to respect another person's beliefs, you have to respect their right to have them.

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Willravel

That's probably the second dumbest thing you heard on that particular day. The person you blew up at was sharing incorrect information.

Baraka_Guru

Perhaps the prof was responding to your less-than-cordial lead-in sentence?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Walt

I do. I respect a persons right to believe whatever they want. But when that person states their beliefs as fact in a public forum, they open themselves to criticism.

I will give you that. Still, if something is wrong to the point of being strongly offensive and intellectually dishonest, doesn't that warrant an equally strong response? Calling someone an idiot isn't arrogance if its true.

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Calmer than you are...

Baraka_Guru

But "idiot" is subjective and treating one as such is an ad hominem attack.

If you countered with merely enlightening the class on the facts, I'm guessing that your prof would have less to object to if anything.

There is a difference between leading off with "that's dumb" vs. "actually, that's not true...."

EDIT: If not knowing something automatically makes one an idiot, then welcome to the idiot human race.

Universities are a place of learning, aren't they?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Walt

Its not my place to make sure that everyone walks away from a discussion with a warm, fuzzy feeling. Dont want to get "picked on"? Don't spout out-right fallacies under the guise of personal beliefs.

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Calmer than you are...

The_Dunedan

Having attended the same Uni as Walter, I beg to differ. Although our mutual mater is a great school, certain departments have a very decided political slant, and an institutional culture of intellectual censorship, harassment and gate-keeping that can be quite disturbing when encountered at close range. Given my own experiences (YMMV), it's likely that he would have caught shit for his statements in any case, regardless of how they were couched. This is a school which continues to teach Carlos Castanada's books not as fiction, satire, or a study in fraud but as Anthropologically-useful FACTS, despite their having been conclusively proven fraudulent (to say nothing of lethally dangerous) over 30 years ago, because the slant of the aforementioned fraud suits the political and cultural prejudices of the head of the Anthropology Dept.

Hektore

It is your place in class. You'll find as I did (much too late) going to college is as much a lesson in putting up with bullshit as it is in gaining any real knowledge. One big part of that bullshit is being nice to everyone when your boss is around.

Respecting them means you're polite - it means when you tear their argument to shreds you compliment and smile at them.

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Jozrael

So, what I got from this is that he's an ignorant, loud-mouthed kid, and you're an arrogant asshole: that's just the impression I've gotten from your words.

Do you HAVE to be nice to people? Certainly not. Will it change your view in their eyes? Certainly. Does that matter? Only you can answer that.

Keep in mind that even though your scorn was meant for him, it was witnessed by the entire class. Perhaps there was even one person in there that you cared to not make a bad impression on. Keep in mind that only a handful of people may disagree or agree with you here and say you were or were not out of place, or should've phrased things differently. Many more will read the words, though. Only you can answer whether you care about the impression you give to fellow TFPers as well.

primal

I agree with Baraka Guru. The point of a classroom setting is for everyone to have a chance to gain knowledge and wisdom. This works best when people share ideas freely. If people are afraid that they will be attacked they are less likely to share and that creates an environment where the professor does all the talking. More can be gained from multiple voices than from a singular viewpoint.

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Walt

It was a personal attack, not because of the students lack of knowledge, but because he made a conscious decision to ignore verifiable truths in order to make room for bullshit propaganda. The kid is about to graduate with a BS in Political Science for Gods sake! I refuse to believe that he just didn't know about the aformentioned events.

Thats what I was told, though I believe it a little bit less every day.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

I wholeheartedly agree when it comes to something like theory. But whether or not people have been blown up isn't open to multiple viewpoints. Either it happened or it didn't.

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Calmer than you are...

Zeraph

I think I'm kind of with Walter. I didn't like Bush but what that kid said was pretty much propaganda...which to me spouting propaganda in my presence is more offensive than if someone called me a name.

DaniGirl

well I think it is a persons right to question everything. It doesn't sound like this has to do as much about beliefs as it is reality. If someone is saying something that you know to be a lie then I believe that you have every right to voice your opinion. Now I do believe we all need to show everyone respect when it comes to there opinions, just because you don't agree with someone is no reason to refer to them as an idiot. You don't know how the person was raised and how they view the world. Its always good to here others views, it either strengthens your views or makes you question what you believe. And if I rambled a little I'm sorry, im a little drunk right now, so all is good.

Walt

Eh, I dont think I have any kind of superiority complex but I am fine with being labeled an asshole.

Dude. Really?

I started the thread for the discussion. Whether or not the anonymous masses think I'm cool doesn't carry the weight that you seem to think it should.

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Calmer than you are...

dippin

The basic point is that you can make an argument (the kid was wrong) without all the bluster that accompanied it ("the dumbest thing ive ever heard").

highthief

Pretty much.

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kutulu

In a sense, the student was right. Terrorism was not a major concern because we didn't have a history of attacks beyond a few isolated incidents. Our response to terrorism threats during the Bush years was completely overreaction. The right wingers played on the fears of a population that was vulnerable after 9/11 and wanted to make terrorists the reason to bring back the hawkish policies that had faded away after the cold war.

MSD

If you want people to take you seriously, you have to put up a front of politeness and respect. I'm not exactly known for being the nicest guy around here, but I restrain the shit out of myself because I understand social conventions and especially persuasion theory. Very simply, about 85% of people are not open to large changes of opinion in debate. To change their minds, you have to do it bit by bit, staying within their "comfort zone" and taking steps that they're willing to take.

The Internet is mostly anonymous and I restrain myself because I want people to take other things I say seriously. In real life, there are people who would have no problem assaulting me for my opinions on, for example, religion. Politics is generally understood as having more leeway for disagreement in debate, but people are still very narrow-minded.

SecretMethod70

Which, by the way, is a good skill to learn in college It also makes you 100x more persuasive.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

percy

I see the point assuming those beliefs are moral and ethical generally speaking but I don't respect someone who may think pedophelia is acceptable.

Halanna

Most people will state their opinion as fact, even if it is their opinion. Classroom, dinner party, wings and beer, opinions are usually stated as fact because they want to be seen as right.

It may be true, but it's one of those truths that can't be said. You can think it, rage inside about it, but you can't verbalize it in that way. You will not gain an audience to listen to you by being coarse.

It's not about what you have to say, it is how you say it. If you can gain their attention, they will listen, if you open with something that pisses them off, they won't.

Martian

Respecting someone's beliefs is important on matters of opinion. Religion and politics are examples of this. I may not agree with you or any other given individual on a given subject, but as my opinions are not objective fact it behooves me to accord you the right to hold your beliefs in the hope that you'll extend me the same courtesy.

You have no reason to respect a belief that's based on factual errors. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you have a moral obligation to rebut such beliefs and dispel them, if you're able to do so. However, it's important to respect the individual regardless; approaching it the way you did effectively shuts down dialogue, which means you get nowhere. Respectful disagreement is always more productive.

My policy is to always give a person the benefit of the doubt. I assume that the other party is an intelligent and rational individual who is simply misinformed, unless or until proven otherwise. I also try to remain open to the idea that I may in fact be wrong as well (and thus, you'll often see me using phrases such as 'correct me if I'm wrong,' or 'It's my understanding.') Of course, the latter doesn't really apply in this case; the events you've mentioned are not in any way controversial and are pretty much a straight refutation of what the other student claimed. Regardless, had you approached it in a less confrontational manner it may have opened the door to a debate on the hows and whys of these events. Without knowing the context of the class I don't know how well that would've gone, but all the same.

I don't know your school or your professor, so it's hard to say. Had it been me (ha, as if I'd sit through school long enough to become a professor), my objection would not have been to the rebuttal itself but rather the way it was fashioned.

This is my opinion. I ask you to respect it.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Jinn

It's a question of goals.

If your goal is to be right, or to correct someone, or to make someone look silly for having an erroneous belief, then this is the correct approach.

If your goal is to educate them to the error of their belief, this is not the right approach.

Treat every one of your goals with the right approach.

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Walt

Everyone:

I agree that my approach was situationally inappropriate and I probably should have made my point in a measured, less confrontational manner. I will admit, though, that I'm still irritated by what the kid had to say. I'm new to this college thing and I'm still working on developing tact and embiggening my capacity for bullshit.

I appreciate the comments and advice.

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Calmer than you are...

Jozrael

As a note, I didn't mean to chastise you, just share my reasoning on why I attempt to present myself politely IRL or as a netizen. I didn't mean to seem as if I was holding the specter of communal disapproval over your head xD.

I think you had every right to be irritated. I also know that -I- would feel more satisfied at the end of the day if I'd been able to enlighten the kid, at least in some way, by the end of the day by discoursing with him reasonably. But I am I and you are you and that can make all the difference.

Your penultimate sentence is quite telling. Props .

<3.

ratbastid

Well, look, it's not really that you have to respect people's opinion, so much. It's that you have to respect people. People think very strange things sometimes. Doesn't make them Bad People. Just means they are thinking from a framework that is different from yours, and has them view reality in a way that's different from your view.

It's fair to say that Terrorism as we now know it was defined on 9/11. Incidents prior to that were, to America at large, "no big deal". 9/11 and our response to it put terrorism right on the front burner and kept it there.

Willravel

We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.

shakran

I think that respect should be earned, however. If they're just cranking out dumbassed ideas, why should you have to respect those ideas?

Iliftrocks

Maybe because at least one side in any conversation should be respectable? If you're both gibbering monkeys, there's nobody to respect. In a debate, there are other people watching, who are they going to see as rational? There are respectful ways to let someone know their ideas are poppycock. Minus the "dumb" statement, I think Mr. Sobchak had a very good answer for the statement he debated. ( and yes, this crap started decades before the most recent Bush, but that's another story )

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Psycho Dad

I don't think the professor was really wanting to say you have to respect this other person's belief. I just think the professor didn't communicate well that you need to be respectful of other student's sharing their opinions.

Your response was more in line with how you may reply to a buddy that you've been drinking with all night. Not another student in a classroom environment. The forum, audience and other environmental factors should always determine how you should react to things. You are in college and this is just part of learning these things. I wouldn't sweat it or the other person's beliefs. Your going to see this kind of thing your whole life. Next time I wager you will react differently.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

roachboy

well, first off the problem was, like other folk have said, social.
there's no particular reason to respect what other people think or say, but there are reasons to respect the person. and there are tactical reasons within a debate context to try to remain a bit..um...nice, particularly if you harbor the illusion of changing someone's mind. roachboy isn't necessarily so good at this, but in 3-d his meat correlate is actually kinda gracious about such things. but i also don't hesitate to tell people they're wrong. sometimes pretty bluntly. but you have to pick your spots, know why you make that move.

o yeah--by the way, the change in the notion of terrorism from referring to a specific set of political tactics into something like it's modern form, which designates Enemies and evacuates the idea that they have a political agenda but are instead just Bad People, is usually linked to the 1972 munich olympics, the black september action, how it was framed, what it was defined as discursively. this ran alongside the other co-opting of the word by folk like baader-meinhof and the red army brigade, but folk don't remember them so much any more. maybe that's a function of the revision of the history of the entire vietnam period that was of a piece with the (mercifully ended for now) republican ascendancy, the shift to the hard right, the fashioning of the vietnam syndrome myth blah blah blah.

you can track the process. people have done it--i can give titles if you want.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Slims

I don't think you were out of line, and I would have challenged the professor following his rebuttal.

You are in a classroom where you are paying (a lot) of money to be taught fact. Seeing as it was a Political SCIENCE class this is especially true because an event either happened or it didn't (I get that some things are unknown, blurry, etc. but this is not one of them). Your role as a college student is two fold: first, to learn as much as possible; second, to learn how to evaluate available information and correctly arrive at the right conclusion. It is the professors job to teach you how to do both these things and by defending someone who is obviously capable of neither he is doing both of you a disservice.

As Douglas Adams so succinctly put it:
"I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue.

...Well, in history, even though the understanding of events, of cause and effect, is a matter of interpretation, and even though interpretation is in many ways a matter of opinion, nevertheless those opinions and interpretations are honed to within an inch of their lives in the withering crossfire of argument and counterargument, and those that are still standing are then subjected to a whole new round of challenges of fact and logic from the next generation of historians - and so on. All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."


Those who have a problem with Walter Sobcak's willingness to voice his own opinion seems to have made him a target for online criticism only because he was correct. Otherwise his opionion would be just as valid as the brain dead ditz he corrected in class. If the professor isn't willing to police his own class then the students need to do so themselves.

We need only tolerate the opinions of others, not respect them.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

genuinegirly

It really depends upon the tone of voice you used when you made this comment. I can see how these words, spoken in a mild even-tempered voice could be respectful. I more easily visualize an outraged, loud-spoken person screaming in the face of a fellow classmate. There are tactful ways to say someone is wrong. There are respectful ways to argue, which involve giving the other an opportunity to repsond without feeling put-off to the discussion.

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dippin

Where did anyone have a problem with Sobcak's willingness to voice his own opinion?

Slims

This is where I got it from.

Jozrael not only calls Walter an asshole, he goes on to imply that Walter's voiced opinions cast him in a negative light for the rest of his class as well as the average anonymous TFP member.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Jozrael

I was having a difficult time portraying three things.

1: How he came across to me (politely).
2: How I behave instead.
3: The motivation for why I behave the way I do: because of how I believe people will perceive my actions. (Note: this assumes that the general public would perceive his/my actions the same way I do. While not necessarily true, I don't have any framework to work off of but myself :s).

Obviously I failed at succintly explaining that because I came across quite arrogantly myself. I wish I was wiser and could have put it better :s. I didn't mean to say 'you are an asshole', but 'from the situation you've just described, it seems to me you acted in ways that had assholish qualities'. :P

Seaver

This kid did not use logic to get himself onto the logical train in which he derived that the Iraq Invasion of 2002 caused the 9/11 attacks in 2001. He has a hatred for conservative politics epitomized in his mind by Bush. Therefore any issues he has with American international policies or history gets transfixed into this one man and he can (in his mind) take the blame for it all into one bad Big-Brother figure.

You can't use logic or reason to get a person out of a belief he did not use logic or reason to arrive at. Just treat this guy like I treat 9/11 Conspiracy theorists. Just shake your head, walk away, and smile as he pointed out his own mental weaknesses.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas