KnifeMissile

This is not a philosophical question. It's an honest question in response to this news article:
Okay, so some religious fuckwit thinks that Satan is literally behind what he sees as "anti-family" legislation. There's nothing surprising about a religious idiot around every corner. What's more interesting than someone willing to publicly state this kind of religious nonsense in government is that the Republican reasons for rejecting it was... that it would hurt their public image. Specifically, they didn't want to alienate voters like immigrant citizens. Apparently, the idea of Satan pulling political strings against them was an otherwise reasonable statement and not something to be mocked or even simply dismissed.

I also get a little nervous when "end times" talk gets thrown about in government. I'd hate to see government make decisions on the assumption that there's no tomorrow...

I'm also a little curious to know how "illegal immigrants" are supposed to vote...

So, I'm interested to know what people think of this. Does anyone believe in a literal Satan? Does anyone believe that he actually does tangible things here on Earth? How do people feel about these things being bandied about in government? ...or about family legislation in general?

Finally, I've been told that it's clear in the New Testament that we cannot know the end times. Has anyone heard of this? Can anyone point out specific verses that support this idea?

Thank you...

Willravel

I've learned to give religion a wide birth. I don't have to agree with a person's beliefs in order to respect that person. In fact, some of the people I look up to most in my life happen to believe in god.

All of that being said, this man should be persecuted for his beliefs. It's one thing to hold a personal belief but entirely another thing to force that belief on people via government. If you choose to present your religious beliefs to someone as not only truth, but a truth they must adhere to, you're opening your faith up to judgment. I judge this man's faith to be ludicrous and politically motivated. He's one of the worst kinds of stupid, and he deserves nothing but ridicule.

hunnychile

Nope.

Why give creedence to a figment of our imagination? Anyhow, if you don't name it - it doesn't exist, ...right?

Anyhow, that spook get's too much press already. /freakin' media whore!!/

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

Plan9

I don't believe in such goofiness. I'm as religious as cornflakes.

Satan has been relegated to a burnt out pop culture icon.

Maybe like Mick Jagger.

We all love 'em, but wish he would retire for good.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Xerxys

Literal Satan? Of course, the dude who sold me the bed at rooms unlimited. His name is Tony. He has come to new bern avenue to spread the demon seed of suffering by the way of the u-haul.

He is evil.

lostgirl

I don't, not one little bit.

My parents, on the other hand, are super religious and they believe that Satan is very real.

They believe he is a constant force in our lives, and acts upon us daily trying to get our souls.

I respect my parents a lot even if I think they have some crazy beliefs. They are really good and decent people.

__________________
We're about to go through the crucible, but we'll come out the other side.
We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its changed form. - Children of Dune

Charlatan

God no...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

Oh, you mean Lucifer? (Well, I'm not referring to TFP Lucifer!)

Hell, if I believed in him, I'd have to believe in angels. None have stepped forward to get in touch with me, not even Lucie....

So, I guess no....I don't believe in him.

Though I do regard him as "the guy who disagreed with Jehovah and paid dearly."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i'm inclined to believe in anything max ernst believed in enough to chop them up. so i believe in those images you posted baraka. i really do.

as for natas...uh...

lately i've been amusing myself with the idea of daimones. they were an athenian construct, and were understood as a kind of semi-being that would take shape more or less as a function of entropy. they worked like a materialized chance, but also enabled a kind of account for how it is that chance can appear to fuck with you. you'd think that chance would be neutral, like the random shuffle function was in itunes before they changed it so it would appear more random by being less random. daimones would take shape and break up--like faces in clouds i suppose---anyway they didn't stick around long--they could make things work out unexpectedly or head south despite your best efforts. they did things when the gods were too busy turning each other into trees or whatever they did. i like the idea quite alot.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

asaris

I suppose I believe in Satan, but I don't really think about him much. I mean, I'm a Christian, and so I don't really have any good reason not to believe in Satan, and a few reasons to believe in him, so why not?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Wrexify

A literal Satan? No, I don't believe in an actual being sitting around plotting my demise. A force of evil present in all of us? Sure, why not.

After all, how else can you explain heavy metal and Grand Theft Auto if there's no Satan?

Regarding the article, separation of church and state anyone?

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

mrklixx

It doesn't matter if you believe in Satan, it only matters if Satan believes in you.

__________________
This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent.

This is not a link - Do not click here

I hate animated avatars.

Baraka_Guru

The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then hee
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

—Satan in John Milton's Paradise Lost, Book I

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

alternatively:

Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence.
From these contraries spring what the religious call Good & Evil. Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing from Energy.
Good is Heaven. Evil is Hell.

--wiliam blake: the marriage of heaven & hell

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Even if I believed in Satan, I would fear him not:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

—Jam 4:7

More Blake from The Marriage of Heaven and Hell:

The Voice of the Devil:
All Bibles or sacred codes have been the causes of the following Errors:
1. That Man has two real existing principles Viz: a Body & a Soul.
2. That Energy, call'd Evil, is alone from the Body, & that Reason, call'd Good, is alone from the Soul.
3. That God will torment Man in Eternity for following his Energies.

But the following Contraries to these are True:
1. Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that call'd Body is a portion of Soul discern'd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age.
2. Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outer circumference of Energy.
3. Energy is Eternal Delight.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

I identify myself as a Christian, but I don't believe in a literal Satan. Quite frankly, I think that's silly. For that matter, I don't believe in Hell, either. I have an alternate belief system instead.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Grasshopper Green

I grew up in American Fork, one of the towns listed in the article. The extreme religious indoctrination and craziness of people living in Utah County can not be described in words. There is no separation of church and state, Wrexify. For some fun, leisurely reading, I suggest this website: Utah Eagle Forum This forum has an active presence here in Utah and members support ultra conservative legislation. Not surprisingly, the head of the Utah chapter lives in Utah County.

That said, I don't believe in Satan. My mother, who is very religious, definitely does. I can only shake my head when she tells me that Satan put dinosaur bones on Earth to confuse us and turn us away from God and the Bible.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

KnifeMissile

I honestly don't think that self identifying as Christian requires a belief in a literal anthropomorphic embodiment of evil advising politicians and running grassroots campaigns. It can just be a metaphor or a symbol of the evils in society and perhaps in all of us. There's no need for melodrama but that's what the pious look for...

MSD

I don't believe in things. It worries me when people try to add belief to laws and public debate.

Cynosure

You mean, does anyone here, at TFP, believe in a literal Satan, right? Because, of course there are lots of people out there who believe in a literal Satan.

However, I think the question would be more interesting if it were "Does anyone here who believes in God, also believe in a literal Satan?" Because, of course none of the atheists here are going to believe in a literal Satan.

BTW: I believe in God, but I do not believe in a literal Satan. But that's all I'm going to share here about my knowledge and beliefs on the subject of Satan.

Is it an honest question? Or is it yet another one of your loaded questions, KnifeMissile? Because, right after you pose the question and present the news article, you fly off with yet another one of your rants...



I agree with you, here. Which is one of the big reasons why I was opposed to McCain's pick of Palin as his running mate. The thought of McCain as President dying while in office, and Palin – a fundamentalist Christian, and an ardent believer in the literal Rapture and the subsequent Battle of Armageddon – becoming the Commander-in-Chief of the world's most powerful military (not to mention the world's most powerful nuclear arsenal), gave me the chills.

Xerxys

This might be the wrong thread, but ... really? Don't we have erm congress? To prevent a stupid idiot from starting a war? I mean, please pretend Bush never happened for a second and answer me this ... if I became president today by technicality because I'm related to the queen twice removed by marriage or some shit ... I thought I need waaaay more grounds to actually do anything let alone fart without permission.

Cynosure

You're joking and being ironic, right?

Oh! If only I could...

Strange Famous

I do believe that there are intelligences which are not strictly or as we would understand carnate humans which seek to influance human affairs - and I believe that some of these forces are negative.

To me "Satan" or "Iblis" or whatever else is a name that one could give such forces.

I think it is unfortunate that sometimes the debate around religious idea's struggles to get past a view of one group seeing the world as full of sin and filth, and another seeing anyone that believe in God or spiritualism as a superstitious moron.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Xerxys

I was joking and being ironic Cynosure but to be honest, Are you saying a POTUS can do whatever he wants to do???

Cause that's freaky!! What happened to democracy?

Cynosure

Isn't "...all men are created equal" basically a belief, and not a scientific fact? Sure, the Declaration of Independence says it's self-evident, that all men are created equal – but even that self evidence is a belief and not a scientific fact.

Be that as it may... No, correct that: Be that as it is (all men are created equal, and it is self-evident)... I, too, strongly support the separation of Church and State.

ring

When I read the OP title,
I thought you were asking is satan was literate.
Sorry, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

Cynosure

Surely you already know the answer to that. Not to go off on a tangent, here, but I'll quickly lay it out, for you...

Ingredients for Starting a War, Despite a Democracy that Would Normally Be Against It

1. A Presidential administration with a personal agenda for a war against a particular nation and its ruler.
   
2. A cataclysmic event, such as a mass-scale terrorist attack. (Note, this event does not necessarily have to be connected – directly or indirectly – to the nation and its ruler that the Presidential administration wants to go to war against.)
   
3. Public fear, confusion, and thirst for revenge.
   
4. An economic recession (optional).
   
5. A Presidential administration that is willing to feed propaganda and misinformation to congress and the public.

Add them all together and stir it up, and you got... a war!

MSD

You are assuming that I agree all men are created equal, which I do not, even taking "created" to mean "born." All individuals deserve to be afforded the same rights and the same opportunities, but there are clearly individuals of greater ability, with greater natural talents, and who would be more likely to survive in the absence of modern society and medicine.

Cynosure

Well, no, my stance is that "all men are created equal" is a belief, and therefor not everyone is going to believe in it (or, as you put it, agree with it). For sure, there are many people, in other countries on this world, that emphatically do not believe all men are created equal.

Indeed. That is what "all men are created equal" is leading up to, in the Declaration of Independence. But, again, it's a belief and not a scientific fact that "all individuals deserve to be afforded the same rights and the same opportunities"; a belief that is not held by all people and all nations of this world.

Martian

I read some of that website, and find it a little disturbing. It scares me a bit that there's a group out there who consider George W. Bush to be too left-wing liberal.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Zeraph

Alas, no. We do not get the easy way out, we do not get a scapegoat to blame our troubles on. It sure would be easier if Satan were real, more fun too. I'd love to have a merry ol' war against Satan and his fellows.

*shouts for Crompsin*
"Dude, get your ARs and any explosives you have lying around, meet you at the mouth of Hell in 5. We're baggin the big one!"

I'd totally fuck Satan up with my Avenger sword +4.

Xerxys

I just came from this website. Despite the fact that I think all those folk should be caged in and not allowed to reproduce ... Their website is killer looking. I'm gonna save the background and everything.

Obtuse

Yeah, I believe in a real Satan, but that Don Larson dude sounds like an idiot and the kind of person that gives us normal Christians a bad name. In fact, I would wager that Satan is doing more damage through Mr. Larson than through his alleged "invisible government."

__________________
Truth cares not for knowledge.

Radio Monk33

__________________
"Punk rock had this cool, political personal message. It was a bit more cerebral than just stupid cock rock, you know"
-Kurt Cobain

asaris

No, I don't think being a Christian requires a belief in Satan. But given a belief in God and Jesus, angels and demons aren't really that much of a stretch, and most other Christians believe in Satan, so I figure, why not? It's not really an important part of my belief system.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Bear Cub

In the flesh, baby.

__________________
Living in the United Socialist States of America.

MSD

If I were the manager of the NJ Devils, I'd be fired after wasting salary cap space acquiring him.

Zeraph

Just curious, (to you or anyone else who believes)...so do you think he has a physical body we could go out and kill? Or does the bible say he's immortal somewhere? Can angels be killed? (he's a fallen angel right?)

Also why'll I have ya, is it just him down there or did a bunch of other angels follow him down and now they're known as demons? Or are demons just evil spirits that used to be human?

Crack

If you believe in one, you must also believe in the other! (Right?)

__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

asaris

I imagine he's just like angels, for what that's worth. An immortal spirit, who is a fallen angel like the other demons. How they fell, I don't have an opinion on -- philosophically, I suppose I'd go with Scotus's story, while historically, I guess Milton's as good a source as any. While we're on the topic, I don't think there are any spirits that used to be human. Dead humans are just dead, until the resurrection and judgment at the end of days.

But really, scripture doesn't say very much about this sort of thing, so it's all pretty speculative. It's probably a good thing, because too much speculation is likely a bit unhealthy. We're trying to become more like Christ, not trying to spend our time worrying about demons and devils.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche